Episode #71 "Death And The Lady"

[johnnyfarragut]

A bit of trivia from Steven Sanders' book :

Norman Mailer had rejected a guest role in 1985 (New York Magazine, December 1985):

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, johnnyfarragut said:

A bit of trivia from Steven Sanders' book :

Norman Mailer had rejected a guest role in 1985 (New York Magazine, December 1985):

Interesting! So, was part of the the ‘idea’ of the episode “Death & the Lady” gotten from Norman Mailer’s real life incident with his wife? However, that couldn’t have been the same episode he turned down to guest star in, as “Death & Lady” was much later than 1985.

[Robbie C.]

20 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Interesting! So, was part of the the ‘idea’ of the episode “Death & the Lady” gotten from Norman Mailer’s real life incident with his wife? However, that couldn’t have been the same episode he turned down to guest star in, as “Death & Lady” was much later than 1985.

It says 'arguably,' which means that's one possibility among many. I suspect the title may have come from Mailer. but the plot idea itself is rather different. Glantz didn't stab the girl, and it certainly wasn't a crime of passion or drunken excess. It was a calculated thing intended to have a specific impact on screen. And the other quote specifically mentions the role was as a "con man" and not avant-garde artiste or whatever Glantz through he was. I could, however, see that role as having morphed into Phil the Shill. No murders, but you did have the girl and a con man.

[RedDragon86]

27 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Interesting! So, was part of the the ‘idea’ of the episode “Death & the Lady” gotten from Norman Mailer’s real life incident with his wife? However, that couldn’t have been the same episode he turned down to guest star in, as “Death & Lady” was much later than 1985.

And was Michael Mann even there to offer roles as he wasn't that involved in season 4.

I don't think this story materialized because what young girl dies early on in an episode between mid 1 to early 2 seasons.

Edited February 24, 2023 by RedDragon86

[Robbie C.]

Just now, RedDragon86 said:

And was Michael Mann even there to offer roles?

I don't think this story materialized because what young girl dies early on in an episode between mid 1 to early 2 seasons.

See above. This might have morphed into Phil the Shill.

[ViceFanMan]

9 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

It says 'arguably,' which means that's one possibility among many. I suspect the title may have come from Mailer. but the plot idea itself is rather different. Glantz didn't stab the girl, and it certainly wasn't a crime of passion or drunken excess. It was a calculated thing intended to have a specific impact on screen. And the other quote specifically mentions the role was as a "con man" and not avant-garde artiste or whatever Glantz through he was. I could, however, see that role as having morphed into Phil the Shill. No murders, but you did have the girl and a con man.

True, providing the title makes sense, and the stabbing in “D&L” definitely wasn’t one of passion or stemming from drunkenness/substance abuse.

Maybe the script & role of the episode about the con man being involved in a murder, was one they had sort of gotten the idea off of Mailer’s case, but ultimately chose not to do it when he himself turned the guest star role down? Then later used the con man idea for “Phil the Shill”? Cool info! 

[ViceFanMan]

15 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

And was Michael Mann even there to offer roles as he wasn't that involved in season 4.

I don't think this story materialized because what young girl dies early on in an episode between mid 1 to early 2 seasons.

No, by Season 4 Mann was only involved by name only. So, he wouldn’t have done anything with the “D&L” episode. The one from ‘85 that Mailer turned down would have been a different episode.  

The con man idea could have very well turned into “Phil the Shill” later on, but ultimately I’m wondering if the episode this was talking about was ever actually made?

[Vincent Hanna]

How involved was Mann in making season 4 and 5? I thought his production company produced every single episode? So he was just footing the bill but not directly making creative decisions?

Also, has anyone seen that movie where Norman Mailer and Rip Torn have a real on-screen fight?  It's pretty nuts and kind of horrifying.

[Glades]

36 minutes ago, Vincent Hanna said:

How involved was Mann in making season 4 and 5? I thought his production company produced every single episode? So he was just footing the bill but not directly making creative decisions?

As I understand it, in S4 and S5 Mann no longer took care of the day-to-day business in Miami, but very much still made the more general decisions, such as the general appearance of S4 and S5, the Burnett arc, etc.

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, Vincent Hanna said:

How involved was Mann in making season 4 and 5? I thought his production company produced every single episode? So he was just footing the bill but not directly making creative decisions?

Also, has anyone seen that movie where Norman Mailer and Rip Torn have a real on-screen fight?  It's pretty nuts and kind of horrifying.

Mann still had his name “attached” to it, but he was only involved with last part of Season 3 & Seasons 4-5 by name and on paper, so-to-speak...and probably still getting a nice paycheck in the process. But—rightfully so! 

But, although his production company was still helping “produce” MV, Mann had pretty much given over control & decisions to Dick Wolf by then, and he was trying to produce other shows/movies during that time. He’s, in recent years, admitted that he made a mistake, and should have stayed more involved—as even he said the last couple seasons of MV were pretty bad.  

[Vincent Hanna]

I just finished up S3 and now onto Death and the Lady. Man I forgot how drastically the show changed in such a short time. This was only like 18 months removed from the time they were still filming Season 2 but it feels like a lot more time has passed. I guess people just lived harder in the 80s 

The show now feels like an off-brand sequel to a hit movie. Like the Bond movie Never Say Never Again, or when Cannon Films would buy the rights to random movies and do sequels. 

S4 is going to be a rough watch but it is kind of morbidly fascinating to see how bad it gets. That patented Michael Mann "stylised realism" is pretty much gone at this point and I miss it. (This one is better than Contempt, Amen.. Send Money and The Big Thaw though.)

[ViceFanMan]

14 minutes ago, Vincent Hanna said:

I just finished up S3 and now onto Death and the Lady. Man I forgot how drastically the show changed in such a short time. This was only like 18 months removed from the time they were still filming Season 2 but it feels like a lot more time has passed. I guess people just lived harder in the 80s 

The show now feels like an off-brand sequel to a hit movie. Like the Bond movie Never Say Never Again, or when Cannon Films would buy the rights to random movies and do sequels. 

S4 is going to be a rough watch but it is kind of morbidly fascinating to see how bad it gets. That patented Michael Mann "stylised realism" is pretty much gone at this point and I miss it. (This one is better than Contempt, Amen.. Send Money and The Big Thaw though.)

Season 4 really started the downward spiral, however, there are some good episodes...and “Death & the Lady” is one of the best of the season, as well as the show! 

[johnnyfarragut]

Haven't watched this episode in a long time, so I don't remember much of it. I'll watch it again soon as I can. Reading the discussion it sounds like it was inspired by Antonioni's Blow Up or Coppola's The Conversation, with a hall-of-mirrors plot that keeps you guessing what is real and what is not. Sounds like a very cool episode. 

[RedDragon86]

21 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

See above. This might have morphed into Phil the Shill.

The plot changed significantly then.

If it's true I am glad he turned it down.

[ViceFanMan]

8 hours ago, johnnyfarragut said:

Haven't watched this episode in a long time, so I don't remember much of it. I'll watch it again soon as I can. Reading the discussion it sounds like it was inspired by Antonioni's Blow Up or Coppola's The Conversation, with a hall-of-mirrors plot that keeps you guessing what is real and what is not. Sounds like a very cool episode. 

Part of it is the proverbial hall-of-mirrors with some plot twists & guesses...but, I think the majority of it is based off the idea of a real-life snuff film—being passed off as just a movie.

That has been “officially” looked at as a supposed urban myth in the past, although they know some have existed, but were not able to have enough court-worthy evidence for arrests. Snuff films are very hard to prove real—as most anything can be made to look real on film.

But, just this past year a sicko was arrested & charged with kidnapping & torturing a young boy and another victim to death, while filming it...then tried to sell the film. We would like to think there really are no ‘Milton Glantz-s’ in the world, but that in itself is an urban myth. 

“Death and the Lady” was/is a tragic but amazing episode...awesome performances by everyone! 

[johnnyfarragut]

1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said:

But, just this past year a sicko was arrested & charged with kidnapping & torturing a young boy and another victim to death, while filming it...then tried to sell the film. We would like to think there really are no ‘Milton Glantz-s’ in the world, but that in itself is an urban myth. 

 

 There's also the case of Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris. It's one of the most horrifying serial killer cases I know about.

 They were arrested before making a film of the rape/torture/ murder of their victims (which they were planning to do and sell for a profit), but they took pictures of the torture they inflicted on their victims and, at least in one case, made an audio recording of the crime. It was seized as evidence by the police.

 The tape was played in court in a public hearing (see video); it's now in possession of the famous FBI's Behavioral Sciences Unit.

 There's a transcript available: https://www.parkaman.com/transcript-shirley-ledford-tape/ . It's the most disgusting thing I ever read.

 Bittaker tried (and failed) to convince the jury it was all an act. That tape  earned him a death sentence in 1981 which was never carried out. He died of cancer in San Quentin in 2019.

 Sorry for the off-topic. 

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by johnnyfarragut

[ViceFanMan]

8 minutes ago, johnnyfarragut said:

There's also the case of Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris. It's one of the most horrifying serial killer cases I know about.

 They were arrested before making a film of the rape/torture/ murder of their victims (which they planned to do and sell for a profit), but they took pictures of the torture they inflicted on their victims and, at least in one case, made an audio recording of the crime.

 The tape was played in court in a public hearing (see video); it's now in possession of the famous FBI's Behavioral Sciences Unit.

 There's a transcript available: https://www.parkaman.com/transcript-shirley-ledford-tape/ . It's the most disgusting thing I ever read.

 Bittaker tried (and failed) to convince the jury it was all an act. That tape  earned him a death sentence in 1981 which was never carried out. He died of cancer in San Quentin in 2019.

 Sorry for the off-topic. 

 

Very interesting info! It’s not really off topic...as it ties into the MV episode, concerning the snuff film idea. They basically know of and have even proved a couple snuff film cases...but, sadly & “sickly”, I’m sure there’s a lot more out there that were never found. At least Bittaker eventually faced his consequences...God has now dealt with him, and nothing our courts or jails could do, could even come close to what he faced & is facing. 

[Vincent Hanna]

 

[ViceFanMan]

Well, it seems Crockett and Jill Ryder secretly hooked back up later!  

Don Johnson & Penelope Ann Miller in Dead Bang (1989)

Edited February 26, 2023 by ViceFanMan

[Vicefan7777]

This is a wonderful episode. As Crockett looks at the still film scene and comments that those eyes are dead it brings a chill to my spine.  Paul Guilfoyle performance was top-notch.  Crockett shows real emotion here in trying to get justice for the victim.  

[RedDragon86]

On 2/25/2023 at 6:28 PM, johnnyfarragut said:

 There's also the case of Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris. It's one of the most horrifying serial killer cases I know about.

 They were arrested before making a film of the rape/torture/ murder of their victims (which they were planning to do and sell for a profit), but they took pictures of the torture they inflicted on their victims and, at least in one case, made an audio recording of the crime. It was seized as evidence by the police.

 The tape was played in court in a public hearing (see video); it's now in possession of the famous FBI's Behavioral Sciences Unit.

 There's a transcript available: https://www.parkaman.com/transcript-shirley-ledford-tape/ . It's the most disgusting thing I ever read.

 Bittaker tried (and failed) to convince the jury it was all an act. That tape  earned him a death sentence in 1981 which was never carried out. He died of cancer in San Quentin in 2019.

 Sorry for the off-topic. 

 

That audio is truly horrific, you can hear her screams outside the court room door. I regret listening to that.

These animals should be put up against a wall and shot, the same execution style as Andrei Chikatilo, thrown in a cell and one bullet to the back of the head instead wasting tax payers money and trying to understand them and blah blah.

They just died many years later of old age, I hope there is a god because there is no justice on earth.

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

8 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

That audio is truly horrific, you can hear her screams outside the court room door. I regret listening to that.

These animals should be put up against a wall and shot, the same execution style as Andrei Chikatilo, thrown in a cell and one bullet to the back of the head instead wasting tax payers money and trying to understand them and blah blah.

They just died many years later of old age, I hope there is a god because there is no justice on earth.

 

I haven’t listened to the whole thing...it’s disturbing. I agree they should have been executed, but the world is not perfect (especially our court systems). God allows us make our own choices, but then we have to eventually face the consequences, whether sooner or later, for those choices if they are evil, sinful, or immoral. 

Whether it was Lawrence Bittaker or someone like the Milton Glantz character on MV...even if they get away with something or their crimes while on earth, they will ultimately answer to God. And nothing the courts or prisons could do, would come close to God’s wrath. 

[RedDragon86]

Good episode in a poor season, I might have over did the praise for this.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

3 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

Great episode! one of Don's best performances, the effort he puts in is incredible. (9/10)

I don't know why I disliked this originally, this is the type of episode that would fit perfectly mid-way through season 2.

It's a shame how this episode is amongst poor ones, it doesn't belong in this season.

Question I would like to ask - was it possible that Glantz' was the killer?

 

This is one of my favorites...not only of the season, but of the show itself! You're right, it doesn't really belong in the season it's in...but, in another sense I'm glad it's in Season 4, as at least it can be one of the few good ones to look forward to when watching that season. A 9-10/10 for sure! 

Could Glantz have been the actual killer of Amy Rider? Possibly...but I actually don't think so. Glantz was a sick, perverted freak that got-off being able to manipulate & control other people into doing what he wanted...but never quite "dirtying" his own hands. I think he was able to manipulate Amy into agreeing to be the victim (as she had cancer & was dying--plus they got her so high during filming, she hardly even knew what was going on), and I think he was able to manipulate or force someone else into being the "wolf's head guy" in the actual snuff film. Perhaps he was present & watched it happen...but I don't think he actually was the wolf's head stabber. The guy in the film was taller & bigger than Glantz/Guilfoyle, too. 

[Robbie C.]

4 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

Great episode! one of Don's best performances, the effort he puts in is incredible. (9/10)

I don't know why I disliked this originally, this is the type of episode that would fit perfectly mid-way through season 2.

It's a shame how this episode is amongst poor ones, it doesn't belong in this season.

Question I would like to ask - was it possible that Glantz' was the killer?

 

Glatz wasn't the killer in my view, but he was certainly the facilitator. He made sure things happened the way they did, and then arranged the cover-up as well. Height and other issues aside, I think we see Glantz didn't have the stones to actually kill Amy. Enjoy watching it and making sure it happened the way it did? Most definitely. But as far as the act goes, no.