Episode #110 "Too Much, Too Late"

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, Jack Gretsky said:

Re the subject of the Best Woman for Tubbs, I nominate Maria McDonald - either as Alicia or someone new.  That actress, in both her roles as Alicia and the femme fatale Vanessa, was the hottest and just simply the most awesome romantic partner for Rico. 

Valerie was too self-involved and Angelina (R.I.P.) was never characterized well. 

Completely agree!  I’ve said this before on some post in the past, but I wish the character of Alicia would have popped up more & been Tubbs’ romantic interest.

Valerie was Tubbs’ femme-fatale...she was selfish, unstable, and toxic for any man who might want a relationship!   

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

On 9/15/2020 at 1:09 AM, ViceFanMan said:

Completely agree!  I’ve said this before on some post in the past, but I wish the character of Alicia would have popped up more & been Tubbs’ romantic interest.

Valerie was Tubbs’ femme-fatale...she was selfish, unstable, and toxic for any man who might want a relationship!   

Yeah, I always choose Maria McDonald as well, especially her Alicia Austin character (I think she's tough, warm, gutsy, introspective, and full of conviction; she's a ma'am with convictions!). I too would've liked to see her again, or at least given a mention.

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

Lately I've been thinking of the title of this episode, which I feel is very apt. For the series as a whole, I think this episode is Too Much (strong content to air) AND Too Late (...in the series for NBC to care; I'm a poet and my mother knew it. "If the supplier can't deliver...", oh, never mind) Too bad, I think it's a winner, with a storyline that really sticks with me (I love how hardcore some of Season 5's episodes are in general).

[Dadrian]

1 hour ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

Lately I've been thinking of the title of this episode, which I feel is very apt.

Same here!  

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Dadrian

[ViceFanMan]

The only true lost episode...as NBC decided some content in it was too “dark” & inappropriate for the time. So, it was never aired by the network during the show’s original run. It was first aired in January of 1990 on the USA Network...which was airing MV reruns (the first cable network to air the reruns, as I believe it started the syndication even before the show was done). 

 

I’ve always wondered before if it was USA that, for some unknown reason, created the fake, ugly purple & green logo  for their syndicated/rerun copies of Seasons 3-5. However, in more recent viewings of the show I now question that. I have an original 1990 USA airing of “Too Much Too Late”...and it still includes the original, real teal & pink MV logo! So, I’m wondering if it was a later cable network (TNN, FX, TVLand??) that created the ‘purple & green atrocity’ for their reruns? Whatever the case, sadly all home video DVD & Blu-ray sets used these versions for the episodes.  

 

As for TMTL...this episode should possibly have stayed the "lost" one. The plot was too ridiculous & weird! I could never stand Valerie! She was whacked-out, manipulative, and nothing but poison for Rico!  She was an "emotional user" and only wanted Tubbs when it served some purpose for her, or for a one-night-stand while she was in Miami.

 

However, I can't believe that NBC yanked this one because of material considered supposedly too "dark" for the time....yet they allowed the earlier episode "Junk Love" to stay?? Both episodes were pretty pervertedly gross with their storylines for the time, but to me "Junk" was worse in that area than this one. I do think that "Junk" was a much better put together/carried out episode than "Too Much" though.

 

But, this episode just became a pathetic, bizarre soap-opera style drama between Rico and Valerie, and on the flip-side Switek's ridiculous drama with gambling...that never got any closure & seemed to just suddenly show up again out of nowhere and be “shoved” into some other plot. 

 

I did like the pastels and colors used, however, and we got to see lots of Tubbs' Caddy!  But, other than those couple aspects "Too Much” was definitely "too" annoying! The only remotely interesting thing about this episode is the fact that it was the only one that was never originally aired by the network (NBC). Other than that...it's pretty stupid and ridiculous! I originally gave it a 3. Still do. 

[fakespyder]

I like that this episode briefly examined Sonny and Rico's disparate views on life, love and relationships. Their increasing tension was the best part of the show in my opinion.

I should also point out that here in Australia, this episode and the other "lost" one was originally shown before the Finale. I'm glad I saw it that way too.

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, fakespyder said:

I like that this episode briefly examined Sonny and Rico's disparate views on life, love and relationships. Their increasing tension was the best part of the show in my opinion.

I should also point out that here in Australia, this episode and the other "lost" one was originally shown before the Finale. I'm glad I saw it that way too.

The increasing tension was interesting, possibly more by the end of the show.  However, there was only one lost episode...and this was it. The other 3 episodes that some think were “lost” (unaired by NBC) episodes too, were actually originally aired by the network...but after “Freefall”. 

[Jack Gretsky]

It's nice to have Pam Grier's Valerie back, a nostalgic bit of continuity from seasons 1 and 2.  Izzy is in this one too, and we kind of need his comedy relief because this is a sordid and frustrating story featuring the scourge of drugs, child rape and women-beating.  Damn, Swain is one of the most hateful MV villains ever.

But I like the variety of tones we get throughout any given season.  We also had "The Cell Within," "Jack of All Trades," the Burnett arc, and other varying sorts of stories during Season 5.  It would be dull if every episode had a similar plot and a similar style.  

Edited December 6, 2021 by Jack Gretsky

[Miami Beau]

32 years ago today, this episode first aired. This is the true lost episode of Miami Vice. In summary, a solid episode that featured a lot of call backs which I liked. I really liked the Stan subplot which was rare for Vice to do but now is standard in modern television.

The Caitlin mention was kinda heartbreaking for Sonny. But its true, Sonny was never the same and, was never gonna be the same after Caitlin’s death, even if the Burnett arc didn’t happen. He was a broken man. An amazing scene at the OCB. I remember when I first watched this episode and saw this scene and my eyes lit up no joke. I really wish we saw more one on one scenes like this between Sonny and Rico in season 5.

I always wonder, just how many people actually caught this back in the day in its original broadcast. I don’t believe this was ever advertised by USA network as a premier of a new episode back in 1990, so potentially a lot of people may have thought this was a rerun and never saw it until the DVD releases. Anyways I played around with the ending today and added Jan’s music in. 

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, Miami Beau said:

32 years ago today, this episode first aired. This is the true lost episode of Miami Vice. In summary, a solid episode that featured a lot of call backs which I liked. I really liked the Stan subplot which was rare for Vice to do but now is standard in modern television.

The Caitlin mention was kinda heartbreaking for Sonny. But its true, Sonny was never the same and, was never gonna be the same after Caitlin’s death, even if the Burnett arc didn’t happen. He was a broken man. An amazing scene at the OCB. I remember when I first watched this episode and saw this scene and my eyes lit up no joke. I really wish we saw more one on one scenes like this between Sonny and Rico in season 5.

I always wonder, just how many people actually caught this back in the day in its original broadcast. I don’t believe this was ever advertised by USA network as a premier of a new episode back in 1990, so potentially a lot of people may have thought this was a rerun and never saw it until the DVD releases. Anyways I played around with the ending today and added Jan’s music in. 

Correct, this is the only episode never aired by the network. By the time MV was in its last season, I originally had kind of gotten out of watching it. There were several episodes that I didn’t see until reruns were on FX (mid to late 90s) and/or TVLand (2005-06).

I watched some reruns on the USA network around 1990-91 or so, but I’ll be honest and say I don’t remember seeing this episode then...and no, I don’t think that USA advertised it as something special or ‘for the first time’ kind of thing. It was just an episode thrown in with all the other copies NBC loaned out to them. 

The Universal Season 5 DVD set, released in 2007, is the first time I saw “Too Much, Too Late”. I’ll be honest again and say I wasn’t that impressed...another ridiculous but of course toxic tryst with Val.   But, to each his or her own.  

However, I have since acquired a USA airing of this episode on a DVD. Not sure if it’s the original 1990 airing, but it very well could be...either way it’s gotta be close. 

Interesting enough about the USA reruns—I’d always assumed USA was probably who created the ugly “fake” purple & green logo for Seasons 3-5. I couldn’t exactly remember back to 90-91 if they had done that, but most all the reruns & subsequently the home video sets have used that for some unknown reason. But, when watching my USA airing of “Too Much” when I first got it, I realized the original “real” teal & pink logo is still there! So, it must have been another cable network after that, that created the fake logo?? 

Edited January 26, 2022 by ViceFanMan

[vicegirl85]

2 hours ago, Miami Beau said:

I always wonder, just how many people actually caught this back in the day in its original broadcast. I don’t believe this was ever advertised by USA network as a premier of a new episode back in 1990, so potentially a lot of people may have thought this was a rerun and never saw it until the DVD releases. 

I'm not sure when I first saw the episode.  I was working night shift during the USA Network airings, and the show didn't come on until midnight or so on my cable service.  Sometimes if it was really quiet I'd stand at the door of an empty patient room and watch the TV in that room.  So it's possible I saw it then, but I don't recall any promotion of the "lost episodes."  

[Miami Beau]

1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said:

Correct, this is the only episode never aired by the network. By the time MV was in its last season, I originally had kind of gotten out of watching it. There were several episodes that I didn’t see until reruns were on FX (mid to late 90s) and/or TVLand (2005-06).

I watched some reruns on the USA network around 1990-91 or so, but I’ll be honest and say I don’t remember seeing this episode then...and no, I don’t think that USA advertised it as something special or ‘for the first time’ kind of thing. It was just an episode thrown in with all the other copies NBC loaned out to them. 

The Universal Season 5 DVD set, released in 2007, is the first time I saw “Too Much, Too Late”. I’ll be honest again and say I wasn’t that impressed...another ridiculous but of course toxic tryst with Val.   But, to each his or her own.  

However, I have since acquired a USA airing of this episode on a DVD. Not sure if it’s the original 1990 airing, but it very well could be...either way it’s gotta be close. 

Interesting enough about the USA reruns—I’d always assumed USA was probably who created the ugly “fake” purple & green logo for Seasons 3-5. I couldn’t exactly remember back to 90-91 if they had done that, but most all the reruns & subsequently the home video sets have used that for some unknown reason. But, when watching my USA airing of “Too Much” when I first got it, I realized the original “real” teal & pink logo is still there! So, it must have been another cable network after that, that created the fake logo?? 

Yeah it’s crazy to think a new episode being listed as a rerun amongst all the other episodes. I wanted to make the point that there may have been many people who saw this randomly in 1990 and got an unexpected surprise with a new previously unseen episode.
But then thinking about it, back in the day, I’m sure alot of people missed episodes here and there during the original run. Meaning many people watching the USA reruns back in the late 80s, were viewing the episodes for the first time. So unless you were a die hard fan back then and watched every episode on NBC, you probably wouldn’t of been able to tell if it was a lost episode or not. 

Also interesting stuff regards the USA network version you have. I guess we will never know who was responsible for the purple/green logo creation. 

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, Miami Beau said:

Yeah it’s crazy to think a new episode being listed as a rerun amongst all the other episodes. I wanted to make the point that there may have been many people who saw this randomly in 1990 and got an unexpected surprise with a new previously unseen episode.
But then thinking about it, back in the day, I’m sure alot of people missed episodes here and there during the original run. Meaning many people watching the USA reruns back in the late 80s, were viewing the episodes for the first time. So unless you were a die hard fan back then and watched every episode on NBC, you probably wouldn’t of been able to tell if it was a lost episode or not. 

Also interesting stuff regards the USA network version you have. I guess we will never know who was responsible for the purple/green logo creation. 

Yeah, there may have been many who saw “Too Much, Too Late” on USA, and didn’t even realize it was the ‘lost’ episode, that had never aired. After all, many didn’t even realize that 3 more episodes (“World of Trouble”, “Miracle Man”, and “Leap of Faith”) aired on NBC in the show’s time-slot after the supposed series finale “Freefall”...therefore many times those episodes are mistakenly thought of and/or referred to as lost episodes, too...when in fact that is inaccurate or not true. 

Ironically, I watched a lot more of the first 3 seasons on NBC during the show’s original run when I was younger, than I did Seasons 4-5 when I was a little older. I was a huge fan at first, but it faded by the end. I came back, so-to-speak, as a huge fan later as an adult with reruns—and this was later reruns than even USA. I watched some USA reruns, but not die-hard faithfully...that wasn’t until reruns on fx (later capitalized FX), and TVLand. I didn’t see every episode of Seasons 4-5 until TVLand. I faithfully taped every episode off TVLand from around 2005-06. I still have those VHS tapes boxed up...I can’t get rid of them, sentimental reasons I guess. 

But, ironically that’s when Universal finally started releasing digitally remastered DVD sets (and with all original music). I remember going to Walmart back in 2005 at midnight the day Season 1 was to be released...as midnight technically starts the new day. The night crew for the entertainment section still had most things in boxes yet...I made some poor guy rip open several boxes before we finally found the MV Season 1 DVD sets. He was like: “Dude, you must be a serious fan!”, lol!!  As far as I know I bought the very first Season 1 set in my town. 

But, I don’t really know who created the ‘blasphemous’ purple & green logo...nor why?? It was never used in the show’s original run, nor do I think it was used for USA’s reruns. I really wish Universal would have used original NBC uncut/unedited versions, complete with original commercial bumpers for their DVD sets...that would have been superb!! Even if this 2008 fire really did destroy all original airings of MV, they still had access to them well before that, as the season sets were released from 2005-2007. 

But, I guess syndicated reruns were maybe cheaper & possibly already remastered to some degree, with say TVLand’s episodes. I think Universal used TVLand’s versions for the DVD sets (as I also think Sony did for the Charlie’s Angels season sets as well...other long story for different show ). There’s nothing like original uncut airings with original commercial bumpers, though!  

Edited January 26, 2022 by ViceFanMan

[Leigh Burne]

10 hours ago, Miami Beau said:

The Caitlin mention was kinda heartbreaking for Sonny. But its true, Sonny was never the same and, was never gonna be the same after Caitlin’s death, even if the Burnett arc didn’t happen. He was a broken man.

I didn't actually realise until I re-watched the series more recently but ladies' man Crockett doesn't actually have any flings after Caitlin. It's all Tubbs in the last season.

That's one of the reasons I love season 5 - this crap is finally starting to get to them and have an effect, instead of the reset button being hit every week.

[vicegirl85]

6 hours ago, Leigh Burne said:

I didn't actually realise until I re-watched the series more recently but ladies' man Crockett doesn't actually have any flings after Caitlin. It's all Tubbs in the last season.

That's one of the reasons I love season 5 - this crap is finally starting to get to them and have an effect, instead of the reset button being hit every week.

For the most part, I agree.  However, there was the girl in Bad Timing who only required 3 things from a man.  "Treats me kind, is a good dancer, and (whispered). "  We know Sonny doesn't dance--it's the only time the trick knee flares up .  I think there was at least a short fling there... maybe a one-night stand. 

[Miami Beau]

10 hours ago, Leigh Burne said:

I didn't actually realise until I re-watched the series more recently but ladies' man Crockett doesn't actually have any flings after Caitlin. It's all Tubbs in the last season.

That's one of the reasons I love season 5 - this crap is finally starting to get to them and have an effect, instead of the reset button being hit every week.

Yeah good point and it’s true, Season 5 definitely has a more realistic down beat tone to it that represents the characters and where they are in 1988. 
Also good point about the no flings after Caitlin. The only person to get close to him after that was Kathleen. This is significant and more than an random encounter. There’s more to that relationship that gets subtlety alluded to later on in the series. 

[vicegirl85]

On 1/26/2022 at 2:03 PM, Miami Beau said:

The only person to get close to him after that was Kathleen. This is significant and more than an random encounter. There’s more to that relationship that gets subtlety alluded to later on in the series. 

I never picked up on that.  Can you elaborate?  Thanks!

[sdiegolo78]

I re-watched this again last night for the second time. I don't even remember it from the 90s reruns.
The bleakest and darkest episode of the whole run. Strong and poignant too. The same old Valery is back in town. Switek is back to gambling, so much for the gamblers anonymous meetings! Nice sub-plot and sequel to 'Hard Knocks'. This episode also worked as sequel to 'Rites of passage' and 'the prodigal son' in some ways. It ended Val's relationship with Tubbs who was acting like a teenager, ignoring Crockett's advice. So out of character for him. When he brought up Caitlin back to Sonny that was like a sucker punch as someone else pointed out. Surprised to see Sonny stayed cool instead of landing him a jab. Valery clearly used Rico again and he finally confronted her in the end. Her junkie friend, by the way, was beyond salvation.
What I don't like about these 'lost' episodes is the absence of EJO. Tubbs deserved some Castillo stare-downs...

Anyhow, I want to give this a 7.5 for the strong story-line, character development, references to previous episodes and Tim Truman's tune ('help me through the night'). Other than that, OCB is definitely falling apart and the cast don't wanna be there either.

[Swevicus]

I like how dark this episode is (not "edgy" dark, "mature" dark), and I can understand why NBC chose not to air it. However, I do think it's necessary viewing, as it doubles as a prologue to the "Freefall" finale. The episode's theme song ("Help Me Through the Night" with vocals by Phil Perry) is awesome, too.