prc73

It will be auctioned historic MV Ferrari

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Guest C.T.

Hmm then what happened to the interior? why the differences? I mean the dash color is a pretty big difference. did it just fade to black over time? and why did the carpets get changed over to black? and what of the owner after it left the show, did he change those?

 

I mean there is alot of unanswered questions here, or did both cars get delivered in different interior specs to see what worked best for the show?

 

in my defense though, he never brought any of that up, just that this is the car from the show, showed us a minor spec sheet and expected us to take it as is.

 

I mean that is alot to take on faith, and these are the said photos and spec sheet

 

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I mean I dont even remember him giving us a photo of the interior I think.

 

plus just doing a quick google search nothing really showed up imagine wise for the paint, until you put in fer901/c

 

the interior leather does show up as cream, and the carpet code does match what it should be, but still why the change? and what of the dash color? and what of Vernice there? I thought it was a latter color?

 

 

 

 

With all respect Kavinsky, the crux of your argument hinges upon some pretty superficial visual discrepancies. Let's not forget that Car 4 also looked a bit different to how it appeared on the show and given the 25 years+ since the TR was used on the show, things have happened to it you may not be privy to. The supporting documentation is convincing and the more I look at these receipts, it is obvious to anyone that this is the hero car. It's irrefutable. Let me refer you to two bits of evidence:

 

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These refer to a leather re-dye and trim work after the show had finished as part of a bigger restoration to bring it back to saleable condition.  We don't know what the exact work entailed except 'remove 'vice' light assemblies could very well mean removing the camera and lighting rigs and looking at the other evidence from Shelton only someone very blinkered can see it is not one of the screen used cars. I've been in the prop game for a long time and I can tell you right now I wanted to buy this car and I'm no idiot with my money.

 

In regards to the paint. My understanding is that Vernice  is 'paint' and the Nero Carbonio equates to code 290501 which is basically straight metallic Black.

Edited by C.T.

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Kavinsky

he didnt bring that up with any of us lol, just those three photos and the images and then shopped it around as the vice car without explanation or further interpretation.

 

hell we didnt even get wind of it at first until someone came over from ferrari chat and asked us if we thought this was the car, and given the discrepancies, and the frequency of a person selling dubious cars that we were dealing with at the time we wrote it off,  and only then did he basically do a hit and run with us afterwards, saying basically, Hey its the Car, Kay Bye! without even going to that thread to adress any of our concerns.

 

no repair slips, no nothing, just these those three photos, as all he gave us was superficial evidence saying its the vice car and that was it. then disapeared for 6 months, then back again for this thing with the auction and it made the rounds everywhere.

 

 

but judging by the work order, the details, the time period of the work order (89, just about when the show wrapped) I think your right given the information now at hand, and I'd bet this was the camera car, and the one at the swap shop is probably the driving shot car judging by the mentions of this one having to have the battery, trunk, screw points in the leather all reworked

 

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and the mold repair would fit given that I think they removed the rear window and the humidity of Miami probably did a number on it

 

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and I swear at one point I saw some sort of plastic flopping around back there in one of the episodes, while the car that wasnt stripped for camera work wouldnt have any of these issues.

 

the repaint is a curious mention, and the doors too, I wonder what happened, were they taken off for some of the interior shots?

 

but given the work they did on the cars, removing the rear bumper, the front bumper, spoilers, and then in S4 they occasionally used this camera car for the normal driving shots with the rear bumper and front spoiler off I guess I shouldnt be that surprised it was in such a rough shape.

 

it was just that literally the guy did a hit and run on us and thought we would take his word on it without any real evidence to the contrary or explanation

 

 

plus we didnt have one of the owners of the TR on here to give us any real insight into it, also keep in mind with the daytona's they didnt take off any parts at all, just mounted the cameras on and used it as is

 

and the repairs and modifications to the cars were minimal in that department, and most of the changes done to car 4 were upgrades and personal taste changes, not major repairs from its work in the show.

 

plexyglass, black wheel spinners, stereo system upgrade from tape decks to CDs, burlwood removed, shift knob changed, and Roberts interior door panels that were closer to the actual ferrari fitted. and the tail lights were switched around I think, along with removing the stripe on the back of the seat

 

and that was it. not repaint and rebuild the interior and the exterior. but there were probably some repairs like anything else but nothing THAT extensive.

 

 

Car 1 was the one that got all those changes, and possibly to hide its identity at that given the lack of a title on that one.

 

kinda interesting though looking at that repair sheet though, as it lists both cars, one 18 G, and the other 11 G, and the big one on the second one, what I presume was the driving car was a respray on the 11.
 

 

kinda weird then, why are the marks from miracle man still on it then with its lower front spoiler?

Edited by Kavinsky

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Guest C.T.

 

kinda weird then, why are the marks from miracle man still on it then with its lower front spoiler?

 

 

That's subsequent damage I'm betting. The damage pattern doesn't match the Miracle Man damage. TR front spoilers are notorious for copping damage and any TR owner can tell you. Finding one without is pretty rare. This makes entirely good sense that the camera TR doesn't have the damage to the front spoiler because 1) It spent most of it's Vice life without the front spoiler on and 2) It was restored then garaged from 1990 onward whereas the Swap Shop one has been driven around, shown off etc. 

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Kavinsky

yeah true, and that cicular hole on it is the hole for the toe hold, and as you can see that car in that photo was not at the swap shop, the guy had it in california so he is using it.

 

oh well atleast we've gotten to the bottom of it then, it is the vice car, but the guy got it without a title it looks like, much like what happened with car 1.

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Guest C.T.

Out of interest did the car sell at $500k at Mecum? Or was there a reserve? It was slightly above the top end of what I was personally willing to pay but definitely keen to find out what happened to it as who know what the future holds?

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damrod

Heard this on the radio and was wondering about it.

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Sonny-Burnett

Argh.  So the highest bid was $500k?  Far cry from the $1.75m.

 

Cartitleloans, "A guy told me.....".  There is no pratical reason for the seller (you?) not to produce two critical documents.  First is a COA from Universal and second, the title with Universal Studios as the owner.  All of the current 'documentation' does not show provenance.  And provenance is the only thing that will destinguish this car from a nice 86 to a $1.75 Hero car.  Was it a promo car Vs. Film car ?   Are the provided documents bogus?

 

The serious bidders knew this, thats why bidding didnt hit proper levels.  TR's have been going through the roof the last 2 years.  This would have been THE car to own at Pebble Beach.  But the documents dont bolster the claims.......and the bids reflected it.

 

Many mistakes from the Mecham site:

Power seats? Cruise Control?  I need to double check mine..........cant find the switches for either.  Certified by Ferrari NA.....they certified what?  VIN, thats it.  If Universal certified that VIN XXXXXX was used in the prodution as the primary filming car of Miami Vice, the car would have been sold at 7 digits yesterday.

 

"Flew it into Italy for........"  The car can be certified at any Approved Certified Service center.  You are the owner and you are the owner of the pawn shop/ car title loan company in FL.  I showed this on the Fchat thread.  The internet cuts both ways my friend.

 

Thanks ...exactly what I've saying and then some. I also did not see how a Ferrari NA or Ferrari Classiche cert has anything to do with establishing provenance.

There needs to be a Title with Universal Studios as the named seller,  a contract documenting the Sale of the car from Universal to the owner after the series ended, and the S/N Vin # needs to be referenced in Universal documents as one of the cars driven in the Series.

All this back and forth about interior changes and such does not establish provenance. It is simply about the proper level of documentation.

CarTitleLoansMiami...if you are the owner as lear60man seems to have established, where are the aforementioned documents?

If you cannot produce these docs and you are the owner, then everything you have said in here appears to be nothing but sales/marketing hype, and the bid price at Mecum would appear to reflect that reality.  

Edited by Sonny-Burnett

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Kavinsky

I think the title and universal studio's documents is everything in these matters, As Camera actually went down to Volo at one point and showed them the documents, or a copy therof to show them what the vin on car 1 actually was with the daytonas

 

only for them to tear the thing down and find out the vins had been fiddled with and that it was showing a latter car as its vin number with the one in the windshield, while the frame number co insided with car 1's known identity. a 76 while the vin on the windshield showed it was an 81.

 

as he had the title to that one, but not the 76.

 

so just from a legal standpoint the person who bought the car would need said title, not just the keys to the car to claim proper ownership of it, atleast from what I understand. as the title is that vital, along with the universal studios paperwork, even if the damage and assessments of the repairs, and delivery dates coinside with the known dates of the show

 

as without that I would imagine the person who bought the car from them back in the day might try to reassert ownership status if this was a case of someone storing it and forgetting about it, only for the owner of the property to claim it for unpaid fees.

Edited by Kavinsky

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Kavinsky

how come the vin numbers are that short? as the Vin on Gm cars is usually some XJHWLAKLHAJ109852 kinda deal.

 

and chance are while I pulled that out of my ass that is someones vin number on a Gm car, unless thats the chasis code, and GM uses the Vin Number as the Chasis code, and Ferrari doesnt and uses a separate code.

Edited by Kavinsky

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Guest C.T.

how come the vin numbers are that short? as the Vin on Gm cars is usually some XJHWLAKLHAJ109852 kinda deal.

 

and chance are while I pulled that out of my ass that is someones vin number on a Gm car, unless thats the chasis code, and GM uses the Vin Number as the Chasis code, and Ferrari doesnt and uses a separate code.

I believe they only use the last 6 digits. It's an abbreviation on the full VIN

Edited by C.T.

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king77

I went to the RM auctions, son bid on a 73 Skyline. But we for sure made it to Mecum to check out the TR.

 

It was odd to say the least.  I will post more later after I get my thoughts together. But in end based on who my son talked to, and he knows Frank Mecum real well. All thought it was a car from Miami Vice. The numbers do not lie and match up 100% with Ferrari NA.

 

But there was some definite odd things about it and NBC, or so we were told, made a conscious decision not to tease this "Celebrity" car for some reason. Odd since the show is on NBCSN and Miami Vice as on NBC. Seemed like a natural to me.

 

However without the provenance many were looking for, which I will address later, its a 85 black TR that was painted white, used by NBC about the time Miami Vice was filming, that might have got some work done that may have happened while filming the show or while driven by a producer/talent off camera.

Edited by king77

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CameraDaytona

Out of interest did the car sell at $500k at Mecum? Or was there a reserve? It was slightly above the top end of what I was personally willing to pay but definitely keen to find out what happened to it as who know what the future holds?

The car bid to $600,000 but was not sold on the block.  This number is still available on the Mecum website.  We don't know if there was a later deal - but not that we know of.

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Kavinsky

Hmm you know my theory is that this car belonged to the owner of the swap shop, and looking at the vin number of the one he has

 

15443066319_196f133fa0_o.jpg

 

far left here, zoom in on the red board: vin 63259

 

its the one that had the serious work done to it according to CT's paperwork, so I think he has the camera car, and this is the long shot car, like the one we saw during its introduction shot and he chose to customize it with the black dash and carpet, while retaining the look on the aft quarter of the interior that you would see from afar

 

as he has 2 testarossas at present, one black and red,

 

 

 

 

the other in the standard vice colors with his vice TR, atleast from what I can figure, so you gotta figure if you have two of something, you would want one to be different in some way or another.

 

and what would be worth more to keep a 100% intact, complete with the nose damage on the front spoiler? the camera car that don was in

 

and I think he put it the long shot car in storage, failed to pay the storage fee's, they collected on it, and this is why we dont see the title or the universal studios paperwork for it, as he still has it for both cars.

 

as that would make the most sense to me, hence why it seems to be a churn and burn kinda deal, and hence the hit and run's the sellers seem to be trying to do with the limited info they dumped on us.

 

 

and also how often have I been moaning about I like it in white but I really wish they would have kept it black lol well for the guy who has it, he also has a black one lol

Edited by Kavinsky

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Sonny-Burnett

However without the provenance many were looking for, which I will address later, its a 85 black TR that was painted white, used by NBC about the time Miami Vice was filming, that might have got some work done that may have happened while filming the show or while driven by a producer/talent off camera.

 

It will be interesting to hear more about this when you can.

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lear60man

Mecham or any other auction house relys on the information provided to them by the seller.  Its up the the buyer to do their due diligence.  If you say its a genuine roadrunner superbee shelby 500 Delorian time machine......thats what going onthe website.

 

Regarding the 'Classiche certification'....this is a process where any Ferrari dealer can certify that 'X' model of Ferrari  "is fully functioning, and its chassis, engine, gearbox, transmission, suspension, brakes, wheels, bodywork, color and interior are original or at least comply with the original specifications".  Claiming that it passed Classiche cert is odd as the original color according to the build sheet is Nero...black.  A respray wouldnt get the cert and nice 3" red binder that comes with the $5k process.

 

Lets talk about the front spoiler.  I have repaired mine at least three times over the years.  Twice on my old TR and once on my current TR.  You are gonna scrape it sooner than later.  Good news is it just fiberglass and semi flat black spray pain is an exact match for OEM.  So trying to use screen grabs to match scrapes etc. is kinda pointless over the years.

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Kavinsky

Mecham or any other auction house relys on the information provided to them by the seller.  Its up the the buyer to do their due diligence.  If you say its a genuine roadrunner superbee shelby 500 Delorian time machine......thats what going onthe website.

 

Regarding the 'Classiche certification'....this is a process where any Ferrari dealer can certify that 'X' model of Ferrari  "is fully functioning, and its chassis, engine, gearbox, transmission, suspension, brakes, wheels, bodywork, color and interior are original or at least comply with the original specifications".  Claiming that it passed Classiche cert is odd as the original color according to the build sheet is Nero...black.  A respray wouldnt get the cert and nice 3" red binder that comes with the $5k process.

 

Lets talk about the front spoiler.  I have repaired mine at least three times over the years.  Twice on my old TR and once on my current TR.  You are gonna scrape it sooner than later.  Good news is it just fiberglass and semi flat black spray pain is an exact match for OEM.  So trying to use screen grabs to match scrapes etc. is kinda pointless over the years.

 

 

ah.... still though if it was touched up, some of it would show through though from basic weathering I would think, I dont know its just that sometimes you can prove things from marks like that, and they somewhat seem oddly close to me.

 

hell for instance in rewatching goldfinger I noticed there was some slight dents on the DB5 in the daytime driving scenes of the movie, indicating that it was filmed after the factory chase when he gets to switzerland, almongst other things.

 

like a slight vertical dent in the passenger side door, a circular dent on the right fender, probably both from when he crashes into the false wall with it, and it showed up on it in Thunderball as well. plus one car has the opening in the roof, the other doesnt curiously.

 

but given it was on location and I doubt it was properly weatherstripped they probably thought it was best not to risk it getting wet and damaging the gadgets they had installed by using it as the driving car.

 

also gapher tape on the driver side door and the sunvisors have been removed, yet they were readded for thunderball.

 

but I didnt know a respray would fail the classique certification right then and there, maybe if its good enough they'll let it slide, or if its been done by an approved ferrari resprayer.

 

hell maybe thats why the cars were resprayed again.

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king77

It will be interesting to hear more about this when you can.

 

 

The numbers match up, 100%. it's one of 2 cars delivered to NBC for use in the show. Other than that, there is no concrete evidence that I could dig up, or my Ferrari contacts, that says this chassis number was used in any specific shows or scenes.

 

What we need is the car/stunt coordinator(s) from the show to dig up his/her records and put together some provenance noting that in season 5, episode 17, scene XX where Crocket and Tubbs shake hands over the top of the car, car #X,(chassis #63631), was used on screen for the final shot.

 

Without that all we have is a black TR, painted white was given to NBC to be used on Miami Vice. The bill of sale from NBC only notes that it was sold, it does not have any specific episode info.

 

Based on my last few conversations. $1.5-mil to purchase the car, another $25-$50K to replace/fix all interior/exterior issues to get the car back to factory delivered condition from Ferrari, leaving it white of course. Tack on another $200K of time and travel/lunch/dinner/drinks to dig up production information, buy the original documents and try to cobble together provenance the current owner/lien holder(take your pick) doesn't have.

 

Then, IMO, you would have iron clad provenance to match that car, or the Swap Shop car to the show/episode/scene with specific documented information.

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king77

It's back at Mecum this Saturday 1/23/16

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king77

Bid up to 475k and rolled off the block

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Sonny-Burnett
18 hours ago, king77 said:

Bid up to 475k and rolled off the block

Meaning it didn't sell? And that price is way lower than the first pass through some months ago. Wonder if anything new was presented to prospective buyers by the seller?

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Scarab KV

I'm not a car guy as my history lies with the boats, so may be shoot'n from the hip here.

Don't know if this will shed some light on the title issue or not, but is it possible there never were titles with Universal's name on them, due to the cars being supplied free of charge?

Wellcraft supplied the Scarabs at no cost to Universal, with no guarantee as to the amount of screen exposure. Was a gamble for Wellcraft that played out quite well.
There were never any bill of sale or title to Universal. The sale of the boats from season two were handled by Abbott & Gilmore, which was the Wellcraft dealer where the boats were stored.

I purchased the #2 boat from the original owner, who bought it through A&G. He had his choice of all three and chose #2 as it was in the best condition and didn't have camera mounts bolted through the deck. The boats were well used. All the paperwork for the boat shows Wellcraft through A&G to original bill of sale.

Just a side note about dash plaques. 
I spoke with Bill Erickson and plant 4 employees about the plaques all looking different and was told that they were a dealer thing. Were never put on at the factory. My boat never had one where as #1 did. My boat was more or less bought about as direct from the show as you could. Star 1 was sold to a dealer in Maryland and miraculously had a plaque when sold to the public.

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