Episode #92 "Redemption In Blood"


Ferrariman

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On 11/18/2021 at 1:20 AM, Jack Gretsky said:

I think I finally know why I don't like it when MV gets too on-the-nose when it gets to be too much of a serial and brings dilemmas from one episode into another.  It's not "cool."  By "cool," I mean an almost artificial, self-contained ambiance.   The characters should be well-rounded, certainly, but I prefer a self-contained, ironic tale as an episode, followed by another self-contained, coolly deadpan episode.  Once you bring in the "Oh no!  What's gonna happen to our Sonny in the next episode? How will his relationship with this pop star develop?  How will this affect him over the course of the season?" factor, then you lose that cool, detached spirit.  What will happen to Sonny or Tubbs or Gina or whomever in an episode?  I certainly hope no baggage from previous episodes, aside from it being a subtle character aspect.  

A lot of people do like story arcs though- I do, myself. And each episode does sort of build on what we know already, both factually and character-wise. You can do that without turning it into a soap. In fact looking back on the five seasons in their entirety, you can find a continuing line of development which will lead to the "logical" conclusion  at the end. It does for me  anyway.

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On 11/17/2021 at 7:20 PM, Jack Gretsky said:

I think I finally know why I don't like it when MV gets too on-the-nose when it gets to be too much of a serial and brings dilemmas from one episode into another.  It's not "cool."  By "cool," I mean an almost artificial, self-contained ambiance.   The characters should be well-rounded, certainly, but I prefer a self-contained, ironic tale as an episode, followed by another self-contained, coolly deadpan episode.  Once you bring in the "Oh no!  What's gonna happen to our Sonny in the next episode? How will his relationship with this pop star develop?  How will this affect him over the course of the season?" factor, then you lose that cool, detached spirit.  What will happen to Sonny or Tubbs or Gina or whomever in an episode?  I certainly hope no baggage from previous episodes, aside from it being a subtle character aspect.  

Although everyone has their own opinions, I agree with this! MV was not supposed to be, nor created as a “serial” type show. Each episode was supposed to be a new case/situation/dilemma. When you start trying to make drama-like story arcs go beyond a couple episodes, then it becomes very “soapy”...and shows like MV lose their cool edge.

By all means there were shows meant to be serial-soap dramas, with wild, over-the-top long-running story arcs—such as Peyton Place (back in the 60s), then Dallas, Knots Landing, Dynasty, etc... All of those shows were interesting & popular as well...but that style worked for those shows. It didn’t/doesn’t for other shows like MV. 

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36 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Although everyone has their own opinions, I agree with this! MV was not supposed to be, nor created as a “serial” type show. Each episode was supposed to be a new case/situation/dilemma. When you start trying to make drama-like story arcs go beyond a couple episodes, then it becomes very “soapy”...and shows like MV lose their cool edge.

By all means there were shows meant to be serial-soap dramas, with wild, over-the-top long-running story arcs—such as Peyton Place (back in the 60s), then Dallas, Knots Landing, Dynasty, etc... All of those shows were interesting & popular as well...but that style worked for those shows. It didn’t/doesn’t for other shows like MV. 

This is VERY debatable given Yerkovich's involvement in Hill Street Blues. Maybe Mann didn't envision the show that way, but he wasn't the only one involved in the creation of Vice. Like Wolfie, I tend to like plot arcs as they can both extend a subject worthy of more than 45 minutes AND they can add to the understanding of the characters and improve continuity overall. They do, however, tend to require a strong production team or show runner if they're going to be successful.

And did it ever occur to anyone that many of the episodes people actively dislike might not have been done if there were active plot arcs to follow? Vice lost its cool edge, frankly, because the times changed and the show couldn't or didn't change with them.

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22 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

This is VERY debatable given Yerkovich's involvement in Hill Street Blues. Maybe Mann didn't envision the show that way, but he wasn't the only one involved in the creation of Vice. Like Wolfie, I tend to like plot arcs as they can both extend a subject worthy of more than 45 minutes AND they can add to the understanding of the characters and improve continuity overall. They do, however, tend to require a strong production team or show runner if they're going to be successful.

And did it ever occur to anyone that many of the episodes people actively dislike might not have been done if there were active plot arcs to follow? Vice lost its cool edge, frankly, because the times changed and the show couldn't or didn't change with them.

Most crime shows (not necessarily all) of the 50s-90s were not drama-serial shows, with elongated story arcs. They were crime shows, and typically each episode was about a different crime/case. Nowadays it’s different...as many times the character’s personal drama carries over into each episode as well.

But, at the time of MV, most crime dramas were not serial with storylines, with “soapy” plots. Hill Street Blues may have been an exception at the time...although regardless of Yerkovitch’s involvement with both shows, MV was not created or designed for a serial-drama model.

 As for active plot arcs in MV, to try and do that kind of thing with...there were no consistent or ongoing plot arcs to follow. By the last couple seasons, everything was disorganized, disjointed, and the episodes they tried to do serial-drama things with were so out-of-left-field, bizarre & over-the-top that it just made things worse. This is one reason the show lost its cool edge, from the first 3 seasons.

The reason the show didn’t last longer than it did (and it could have gone into the early 90s if things had been handled differently—times hadn’t changed that much yet) was poor management, and changes in producers & writers...that created poor & ridiculous episodes. This caused popularity & ratings to fall, which in turn caused cast members to be dissatisfied & want out.

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Your take, of course. We will disagree on many particulars. You don't really know what Yerkovich had in mind with his original concept, but I believe that with the amount of background that's front-loaded into the pilot he was certainly considering arcs and a more serial orientation than what we ended up with. And your contention about there not being arcs to follow is very much a chicken or the egg position. Calderone certainly could have been turned into a more major arc, as could Lombard. There were many opportunities for this...that they didn't take them doesn't mean they didn't exist but to me it indicates Mann's focus on visuals and the like with this show. Obviously he didn't have a bias against a serial...if he did we never would have seen Crime Story.

And the position that episodic shows aren't especially soapy is disproven by pretty much everything Dick Wolf has done since the original Law & Order.

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1 hour ago, Robbie C. said:

Your take, of course. We will disagree on many particulars. You don't really know what Yerkovich had in mind with his original concept, but I believe that with the amount of background that's front-loaded into the pilot he was certainly considering arcs and a more serial orientation than what we ended up with. And your contention about there not being arcs to follow is very much a chicken or the egg position. Calderone certainly could have been turned into a more major arc, as could Lombard. There were many opportunities for this...that they didn't take them doesn't mean they didn't exist but to me it indicates Mann's focus on visuals and the like with this show. Obviously he didn't have a bias against a serial...if he did we never would have seen Crime Story.

And the position that episodic shows aren't especially soapy is disproven by pretty much everything Dick Wolf has done since the original Law & Order.

It’s not necessarily just ‘my’ take, but overall as a whole, it seems to be the take of the majority of fans of the show. Regardless of what each of the original creators/producers (Mann & Yerkovitch) originally had in mind for MV...ultimately what they came up with & went with was not serial drama. 

As for elongated out story arcs to try and follow, when it came to certain bad guys or criminals to try and take down...that kind of a story arc did work for the show! And, they actually did do that to an extent, as the Calderone family periodically popped up through the first couple seasons & even once in Season 3. Lombard as well was in Season 1, and brought back once more in the final season. Later Hackman & Frank Mosca were introduced. However, those characters were not in every episode, nor were they carried on & on & on for a whole season. 

But, as for “soapy”, Dallas-style drama storylines elongated out past one or two episodes (especially ones as bizarre or ridiculous as they did in Seasons 4 & 5), that didn’t work for a show like MV. It was not created or designed for that kind of drama. Most crime shows (I did not say all episodic television ;)) through even the mid 90s were not soapy or over-the-top drama...that wasn’t their style, and if they tried it, it usually backfired (as it did towards the end of MV).

But, by the late 90s/early 2000s, even the crime shows started to change—good examples are probably the Law & Order shows (by Dick Wolf). Crime shows by then were changing & based more on reality—not always a good thing...but still interesting & captivating at times (although I’m not a huge fan of the L&O shows, I love the CSIs & Criminal Minds). Nowadays both things, the crime/cases & the more “soapy” drama are intermingled. 

Personally, for older shows I love say both MV & Dallas...but they don’t go together. Each has their own style. 

Edited by ViceFanMan
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Obviously, a show like Lost is one big arc over six seasons in which contradictions to the arc(s) messed up some of the continuity.  They found a way to mix stand-alone episodes within the overall arc quite well however.  

I would not have liked Miami Vice to have been that way.  I stand by what I said last year that I prefer detached, "cool" one-episode 48-minute slices of excitement, intrigue and irony.  This is how most Vice episodes are; how dull it would have been to get bogged down in day-to-day comic-book level arcs.  The five-film Daniel Craig James Bond run was quite good, but it ran aground with gingering up the private lives of M, Q, Moneypenny and so on - turning the series into a dull soap of phony anguish rather than Bond saving the world in each movie with his wit intact.  

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1 minute ago, Jack Gretsky said:

Obviously, a show like Lost is one big arc over six seasons in which contradictions to the arc(s) messed up some of the continuity.  They found a way to mix stand-alone episodes within the overall arc quite well however.  

I would not have liked Miami Vice to have been that way.  I stand by what I said last year that I prefer detached, "cool" one-episode 48-minute slices of excitement, intrigue and irony.  This is how most Vice episodes are; how dull it would have been to get bogged down in day-to-day comic-book level arcs.  The five-film Daniel Craig James Bond run was quite good, but it ran aground with gingering up the private lives of M, Q, Moneypenny and so on - turning the series into a dull soap of phony anguish rather than Bond saving the world in each movie with his wit intact.  

Fully agree...and perfect examples of how “soap” style long-running story arcs do not work for some things! The “cool” one episode idea, with each primarily being a different crime/case, was definitely what MV was created as & designed to be. At the time, most crime shows were that. I actually miss those days...a fun, exciting escape from reality for an hour! :thumbsup: 

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15 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Fully agree...and perfect examples of how “soap” style long-running story arcs do not work for some things! The “cool” one episode idea, with each primarily being a different crime/case, was definitely what MV was created as & designed to be. At the time, most crime shows were that. I actually miss those days...a fun, exciting escape from reality for an hour! :thumbsup: 

Absolutely. :clap:

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