Lifeguard

Crockett's carry condition on handguns

Recommended Posts

Lifeguard

I have been working on my Smith & Wessons (645-early, 645-INT, 6906-early) lately, doing some polishing on parts for smother action and considering spring changes.  Trying to avoid grip changes to keep external authenticity of the Crockett sidearms.  And I realized inside the 2nd and 3rd gen S&W autos, there is firing pin safety that only releases the firing pin under full trigger pull.  I've been carrying these DA/SA in condition 2 (conditions listed below) with the de-cocker safety engaged.  Given the nature of the Galco 262 shoulder holster, having the 645s fall out is a concern as the thumb snap has tricked me a few times into thinking it was fastened but was only partly.  I've never had a drop tho, but an ND (negligent discharge) is a concern.  However with this pin safety, I realized the hammer resting on it is not a concern like it is on a 1911.  So I went back to watch a few episodes to see the condition Crockett carried in, for both the 645s and the 6906.  There are several clear views of the 645 being drawn in C2 with the de-cocker off, and in Asian Cut when he pulls the 6906 and hands it to Trudy it is clearly in C2.  On the S&W, this is probably the way to carry it as you really have three safeties (not counting the mag disconnect) of the DA pull of the trigger, the internal firing pin safety, and the de-cocker.  The de-cocker on is redundant, as dropping it on the barrel or hammer will not move the pin out, only pulling the trigger will.  Which is a bear to pull DA, so accidental trigger pull is almost impossible.  I haven't used a trigger scale on mine, but I've seen them pull 12 lbs on some videos online.

I don't have a Bren Ten, or a Detonics Combat Master Mark VI (yet).  So I don't have any hands on experience with these.  I did know that the SA Detonics was meant to be carried in either condition 1 or 2.  I know from 1911s in the Army, we carried them in the GI holster in C3 at all times unless imminent combat when it is C1.  But Crockett is clearly carrying the Detonics in the ankle holster in C2 in many scenes, which is a no-no on other 1911s.  I looked around a little to see why the Detonics could be carried in C2 and regular 1911s not, and the only difference I could find was a stronger firing pin spring in the Detonics keeping the pin back.  I went back to watch the Devo montage from Heart of Darkness for the Bren Ten prep.  Crockett loads the mag, racks the slide, then pulls the trigger with his thumb on the hammer just as it cuts to Tubbs.  I watched it a few times to see if he uses the slide mounted firing pin block safety when he de-cocks the hammer with the trigger.  His thumb is on the part of the slide with the safety button, so it's possible it is engaged when he lowers the hammer.  This seems wise, as a slip of the thumb could sink the St Vitus Dance otherwise.   The one thing I can't tell on both of these is if he carries them with the on-frame thumb safety either on or off?  Obviously to use the SA Detonics he has to cock the hammer first, so working the safety, which is usually used for C1, may be redundant.  Since he is using the Bren Ten in C2 DA/SA, he may not have the thumb safety on with DA, as it has an internal firing pin safety like the S&Ws.  Anyone notice Crockett's thumb motion on draw?  Any scenes that show him using the thumb safety on either?

So it seems like Crockett carries in true C2 on all his sidearms (assuming he doesn't use the thumb safety on the Bren Ten and Detonics).  I was considering a spring swap on the trigger and hammer to decrease the DA pull.  So when I draw and flip the de-cocker, I don't have to thumb the hammer.  Just focus on front and line up rear sights then wrap finger and pull DA.  But maybe I should leave the de-cocker off and just rely on the stiffer DA for safety just like Crockett?  I am going to try a less stiff recoil spring to see if that improves my follow up shots either way.

 

For those unfamiliar with Cooper's conditions:

Condition 0 - round chambered, magazine in, hammer cocked, safety off (ready to fire)

Condition 1 - round chambered, magazine in, hammer cocked, safety on (cocked and locked)

Condition 2 - round chambered, magazine in, hammer down (DA/SA)

Condition 3 - chamber clear, magazine in, hammer down (Israeli carry)

Condition 4 - chamber clear, magazine out, hammer down

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lifeguard

I found a post from Kavinsky, on the Smith & Wesson forum.  His recommendation was to have the slack taken out of the trigger.  S&W has a package for $160, or $185 express, that does that and a few other things.  And to disable the mag safety.  Not trigger and hammer springs.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-semi-auto-pistols/265638-3rd-gen-trigger-improvement-trigger-pulls-added.html

http://www.smith-wesson.com/customer-service/precision-gunsmithing#express

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lifeguard

Without hands on experience with the Bren Ten and Detonics Combat Master, I have to watch online videos, diagrams, and use my imagination on how you condition 2 carry them.  Both of them seem to have the problem of the firing pin having no internal safety like the S&W 2nd and 3rd gens, and the series 80 1911s.  So they both likely have either/or light weight firing pin and stronger firing pin spring to stop inertial discharges from a drop.  Which I guess the recommended proper maintenance is to replace the firing pin spring every 4000 rounds for safety.  The second issue with C2 in these handguns is that after chambering the round, you have to de-cock the hammer, a hazardous practice requiring going outside and pointing it away from anything you don't want to accidentally put a bullet in.  With the Bren Ten, it has a firing pin lock button on the slide which allows safe de-cocking. The Detonics has no lock, so I'm not sure how they intended owners to put their Combat Masters safely into C2?  I know the newer manuals online say to only carry a Detonics in C1 or C3, but I don't know what the original manuals said?

Edited by Lifeguard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kavinsky

it all depends on the person and how good they are with things like that. as its all practice and paying attention to it, as even the DA smith revolvers have the same thing with the half cock for a safe decocking position, and its better to practice on one of those as you can see if the firing pin is protruding from the side without the snap caps in it (unloaded of course) than in a semi auto to make sure you did it right.

as it makes a loud click to tell you its in a half cock position on an N frame and the J and its a different sound too, and the 645's did have that built in, although it sounds like someone made its trigger heavier than it should be, as I have never heard anyone complain about a trigger being too heavy on a smith like that, unless it was a CHP gun that is. and even then that was just on the 4006, 10 to 15 tops, as the 49 J frame circal 1970's vintage is 9 pounds DA

best bet go through a gunsmith you trust and check it over, and tell him to put new old stock parts in it and see if it changes, as maybe it was an ex cop gun and the armorer put in a heavier spring as per the departments policy like the CHP did.

as the CHP 4006's dont even have trigger play springs in them apparently, which takes up the slack in that third gen and that part in particular is this simple brass tab that can be bent away from the trigger, causing the slack on them, which makes them feel more gritty than they are.

https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/373/373038.jpg

this sits behind the trigger and is supposed to rub against it to take the play out.

Edited by Kavinsky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lifeguard

So you're saying on the Detonics, just have to carefully de-cock with it pointed in a safe direction, no safe de-cock mechanism like the S&W and Bren Ten?

Yeah, I don't know what the trigger pull poundage is on my S&Ws.  I need a spring scale.  Stock DA is 12 lbs and SA is 4 lbs according to the S&W factory specs.  I've seen people pull more than that on their 3rd gens.  But even 12 lbs on 3 lb 645 is four times the effort to pull that first shot, makes it tough to keep the sights on target.  Lots of practice for muscle memory needed.

I've seen polishing the draw bar sides and tips to make it smoother on the pull, with clean oil it cut down a pound or more on the trigger pull.  But I have not see any suggestions before on adjusting the brass spring on the draw bar.  That makes sense....I'm just not sure what way to bend it tighten up the slack on the trigger for DA and SA?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lifeguard

Some info on the trigger play spring:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/115570-trigger-play-spring-replacement-enhancement.html

Inspecting my 3rd gen 6906-early and 645-INT, the springs are intact but are likely not the later beefed up versions that are mentioned in the thread.  When I have $480 to send all three through to S&W perf center, I'm sure I'll get those springs and the trigger play will be nice and firm.  But until then, there is a lot of slop in the SA that it would be nice to tighten up.  Watching the spring in action on the drawbar, it only seems to come into play during SA mode and is not putting pressure on the trigger when the hammer is down?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lifeguard

Something I've wondered is Crockett's in-universe ammo choice.  Of course on set, everything was .45 ACP blanks, and 9mm blanks in season 5 too.  But in his locker at OCB he had a box of Federal Premium ammunition.  Today, that would mean either the Hydra-Shok, or newer HST ammo.  But I'm not sure what it would have been back then.  HST is too new, and I read the Hydra-Shok was introduced in 1988 so it would be reasonable to assume that Crockett would be using it by the final episode.  The rounds loose in the locker had brass cases, whereas the Hydra-Shok have a nickel coated brass case.  But that might have been prop blanks or just prop dummy rounds.  I don't know if there was a Federal hollow point that preceded the Hydra-Shok and has since been discontinued?  And just because he had a box of Federal Premium in 1989 doesn't eliminate Crockett using other brands of .45 ACP prior to that.  I also don't know what brands carried 10mm hollow point ammo from 1984 to 1986 either?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lifeguard

Did some more poking around on the net and found something called a Federal Premium Hi-Shok JHP.  The pictures of it show a brass case with copper jacket bullet.  I haven't been able to find an older box picture.  Is the Hi-Shoks maybe what would have been available and would have been used at the time?  The .45 ACP round runs about the same as the Hydra-Shok JHP at about 900fps out of a 5" barrel and around 825fps for a 3.5" barrel like the Detonics.  I can't find 9mm measurements, but if it is similar to the Hydra-Shok then maybe 925fps out of a 3.5" barrel like the S&W 6906.

The old Bren Ten site is gone, so I couldn't check to see if it said what 10mm ammo was available at the time of the Bren Ten.  No performance data from then, but modern 10mm are all above 1000fps.  

 

Edited by Lifeguard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lifeguard

Ok, poked around and found the FBI chart from back in 1989.  The Federal 10mm 180grain JHP was the FBI's pick.  But I see Federal .45 ACP 185grain JHP on the list which must have been Crockett's choice at the time, but I think the new Hydra-Shok 230grain would have eventually been his choice ammo if he hadn't already chose it for the 5th season 645-INT.  Although it is weird their difference in performance for the 185grain JHP between a 4506 and 645?  They are essentially the same barrel, why would it perform so poorly in the 645?

fbi2_-1_zpszcfw3sd5.jpg

9mm of choice off that list would be the Federal 9mm Hydra-Shok 147grain JHP, by performance in a 4.4" Sig P226.  It was a new round that year, so might have been Crockett's choice.  However now, I've seen the LuckyGunner tests and for 6906 the HST 150 grain JHP performs much better out of a short barrel than the Hydra-Shok.  The Hydra-Shoks just seem to function as FMJ rounds at the reduced velocity and getting clogged with denim.  The HST .45ACP 230grn JHP seems to do better out of a short barrel too, for use in the Detonics.  It is probably better out of a full-size .45 too, and cheaper.  I will probably get the HST when my .45ACP Hydra-Shok is used up.

Edited by Lifeguard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gary1911A1

I see what you mean on the Federal 185gr JHP out of the 645 and the 4506. A 79FPS difference is a lot especially for Federal. I see they only fired five rounds, but still a significant difference in velocity. Maybe one, the 4506, had a much bigger chamber??? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lifeguard
5 hours ago, Gary1911A1 said:

I see what you mean on the Federal 185gr JHP out of the 645 and the 4506. A 79FPS difference is a lot especially for Federal. I see they only fired five rounds, but still a significant difference in velocity. Maybe one, the 4506, had a much bigger chamber??? 

Yeah, not sure what to make of that.  It occurred to me that the test was in '89, so the 4506 may have been brand new, and the 645 was several years old and may have been well worn and not as tight.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kavinsky
On 10/28/2016 at 11:31 PM, Lifeguard said:

So you're saying on the Detonics, just have to carefully de-cock with it pointed in a safe direction, no safe de-cock mechanism like the S&W and Bren Ten?

Yeah, I don't know what the trigger pull poundage is on my S&Ws.  I need a spring scale.  Stock DA is 12 lbs and SA is 4 lbs according to the S&W factory specs.  I've seen people pull more than that on their 3rd gens.  But even 12 lbs on 3 lb 645 is four times the effort to pull that first shot, makes it tough to keep the sights on target.  Lots of practice for muscle memory needed.

I've seen polishing the draw bar sides and tips to make it smoother on the pull, with clean oil it cut down a pound or more on the trigger pull.  But I have not see any suggestions before on adjusting the brass spring on the draw bar.  That makes sense....I'm just not sure what way to bend it tighten up the slack on the trigger for DA and SA?

That I dont know, I only handled it once really when I should have gone for it a number of years ago, although I dont remember any sort of a half cock mechanismn, and boy ever time I think of the opportunity I had, my reaction is always pretty much what peter falk does at the end of the video here at the 0:30 mark

 

and that spring bends forward so it mates with the trigger itself, as that's the problem, its basically something that puts the pressure on it to remove that pressure that you put on it to reach the beginning of the trigger pull, as it is called the trigger play spring, although my mind is telling me that surely someone must have messed with the spring attached to the trigger itself if its that heavy.

 

as what sense would it be to have the trigger that heavy that it throws off your shots like that, unless its someone who thinks their never gonna use it, and if they do its gonna be at close range like a cop armorer might think, as cop guns such as the glock 19 have some of the worst trigger pulls known to man for legal reasons just like that, to prevent AD's and people riding the triggers.

 

and even then, it still happens, and its happening to the LAPD right now or was, as they were switching off of the 92FS's to M and P shields and I must wonder if that's why suddenly they started showing up with a M1911 like safety on it on the production versions here.

and with how much firepower modern firearms have, what's the cheapest way to deal with that from a company man perspective, replace the guns and go back to revolvers, or change a spring to make it so heavy that they cant dont do that. a 15 cent part versus a 400 one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kavinsky
On 11/6/2016 at 1:22 PM, Lifeguard said:

Yeah, not sure what to make of that.  It occurred to me that the test was in '89, so the 4506 may have been brand new, and the 645 was several years old and may have been well worn and not as tight.

also look at the date tested, theirs a 2 month difference, 5/25, vs 8/30 and wither or not its worn wouldnt make that much difference, as its a sealed chamber going down a barrel, as I'd bet they changed the formula and didnt want to retest the 645 for it.

as I know I've seen that ammo listed as 185 Plus P, and maybe that was a non plus P round and they brought out the new formula in the meantime and forgot or didnt want to retest the old gun.

either that or maybe he liked it better and didnt want to beat the snot out of it lol as regardless of wither or not the spring is worn, it wouldnt effect the velocity that much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lifeguard
4 hours ago, Kavinsky said:

That I dont know, I only handled it once really when I should have gone for it a number of years ago, although I dont remember any sort of a half cock mechanismn, and boy ever time I think of the opportunity I had, my reaction is always pretty much what peter falk does at the end of the video here at the 0:30 mark

 

and that spring bends forward so it mates with the trigger itself, as that's the problem, its basically something that puts the pressure on it to remove that pressure that you put on it to reach the beginning of the trigger pull, as it is called the trigger play spring, although my mind is telling me that surely someone must have messed with the spring attached to the trigger itself if its that heavy.

 

as what sense would it be to have the trigger that heavy that it throws off your shots like that, unless its someone who thinks their never gonna use it, and if they do its gonna be at close range like a cop armorer might think, as cop guns such as the glock 19 have some of the worst trigger pulls known to man for legal reasons just like that, to prevent AD's and people riding the triggers.

 

and even then, it still happens, and its happening to the LAPD right now or was, as they were switching off of the 92FS's to M and P shields and I must wonder if that's why suddenly they started showing up with a M1911 like safety on it on the production versions here.

and with how much firepower modern firearms have, what's the cheapest way to deal with that from a company man perspective, replace the guns and go back to revolvers, or change a spring to make it so heavy that they cant dont do that. a 15 cent part versus a 400 one.

Yeah, mine are the older springs too.  Should get those swapped out for later HD trigger play springs.  I'm in the middle of working on the 645-INT, so when I reassemble it, I will adjust that spring and see if I can take the slop out of it.

You mean a trigger as heavy as 12lb?  That's the factory spec for them.  But I've seen them pull even heavier than that.  I need to pick up a spring scale so I can let you know exactly what mine pull at.  4lb for the SA feels pretty good, and Jeff Cooper recommends going as low as 3lb, but I think I will stick with 4lb.  

My CCW instructor showed us some video of cops with striker fire plastic fantastic guns accidentally firing a round with their light pull on those.  Definitely lack of trigger finger discipline.  He recommended carrying a DA-only to avoid negligent discharge while reholstering or in the heat of the moment adrenaline fueled trigger finger (also to carry a revolver with an internal hammer for reliability, and steel for back up bludgeoning capability when your 5 rounds are gone).  As well as DA-only so the pull is the same each time on follow up shots.  I guess that is why a lot of cop guns were ordered in DA-only instead of DA/SA, makes training easier and uniform.  But I've also heard of cops firing dozens of rounds at a suspect, hitting everyone around there EXCEPT the suspect, which I suspect is because their DA pull is so heavy and their sidearms so light.  

Then again, the only reason you need to brandish your sidearm is if you are arresting someone or robbing them.  For defense the double action is like a samurai sword which is unsheathed with a killing strike motion.  You pull your DA to discharge when it is pointing in the right direction......if you didn't mean to put a round in that person, you would have never pulled it out in the first place.  The decision to kill was made when you decided you needed to pull it.  At close range you won't need it perfectly aligned......and if it is a long range shot, you should have been diving for cover first before firing (unless they didn't have a gun, then it's murder).

Yeah, that could be the difference with the +P.  Smith & Wesson doesn't specify +P capability in their 2nd and 3rd gens, but they do test them with +P ammo in the factory back in the day.  So it is generally accepted that they do both.  The 645/4506s and 1006s are built like stainless steel hand howitzers, so I would expect nothing less.  But you can't find a +P round in anything but LE loads for the .45 ACP in 230gr. 

Wait a minute, I'm looking at those numbers again and before I was just looking at the 12" penetration success rate of 57.5% in the 645 versus the 90% on the 4506.  Average penetration on the 4506 fired round was 17", whereas the 645 fired one was 13.6".  So they were pretty short with the 645 test, and the bullet mass 3.85ci versus the 4506's 4.08ci, so it wasn't penetrating because it was falling apart in the wound channel.  The 645 test had a much higher velocity, so maybe it was a +P and it was too much for the regular JHP.  Expansion was greater on it too, likely why it broke apart more often then the other test.  I guess that may have been why they developed the Hydra-Shok.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kavinsky
3 hours ago, Lifeguard said:

Yeah, mine are the older springs too.  Should get those swapped out for later HD trigger play springs.  I'm in the middle of working on the 645-INT, so when I reassemble it, I will adjust that spring and see if I can take the slop out of it.

You mean a trigger as heavy as 12lb?  That's the factory spec for them.  But I've seen them pull even heavier than that.  I need to pick up a spring scale so I can let you know exactly what mine pull at.  4lb for the SA feels pretty good, and Jeff Cooper recommends going as low as 3lb, but I think I will stick with 4lb.  

My CCW instructor showed us some video of cops with striker fire plastic fantastic guns accidentally firing a round with their light pull on those.  Definitely lack of trigger finger discipline.  He recommended carrying a DA-only to avoid negligent discharge while reholstering or in the heat of the moment adrenaline fueled trigger finger (also to carry a revolver with an internal hammer for reliability, and steel for back up bludgeoning capability when your 5 rounds are gone).  As well as DA-only so the pull is the same each time on follow up shots.  I guess that is why a lot of cop guns were ordered in DA-only instead of DA/SA, makes training easier and uniform.  But I've also heard of cops firing dozens of rounds at a suspect, hitting everyone around there EXCEPT the suspect, which I suspect is because their DA pull is so heavy and their sidearms so light.  

Then again, the only reason you need to brandish your sidearm is if you are arresting someone or robbing them.  For defense the double action is like a samurai sword which is unsheathed with a killing strike motion.  You pull your DA to discharge when it is pointing in the right direction......if you didn't mean to put a round in that person, you would have never pulled it out in the first place.  The decision to kill was made when you decided you needed to pull it.  At close range you won't need it perfectly aligned......and if it is a long range shot, you should have been diving for cover first before firing (unless they didn't have a gun, then it's murder).

Yeah, that could be the difference with the +P.  Smith & Wesson doesn't specify +P capability in their 2nd and 3rd gens, but they do test them with +P ammo in the factory back in the day.  So it is generally accepted that they do both.  The 645/4506s and 1006s are built like stainless steel hand howitzers, so I would expect nothing less.  But you can't find a +P round in anything but LE loads for the .45 ACP in 230gr. 

Wait a minute, I'm looking at those numbers again and before I was just looking at the 12" penetration success rate of 57.5% in the 645 versus the 90% on the 4506.  Average penetration on the 4506 fired round was 17", whereas the 645 fired one was 13.6".  So they were pretty short with the 645 test, and the bullet mass 3.85ci versus the 4506's 4.08ci, so it wasn't penetrating because it was falling apart in the wound channel.  The 645 test had a much higher velocity, so maybe it was a +P and it was too much for the regular JHP.  Expansion was greater on it too, likely why it broke apart more often then the other test.  I guess that may have been why they developed the Hydra-Shok.  

I really dont know with the trigger pull, but its just one of those things where it never seemed heavy to me, and sometimes when pulling back a trigger pull gauge it can require such effort in the first place that the readings get thrown off by how much you have to pull it back. so you may think its 12 or 14 when its really 18

as for my example, its 52 to 55 OZ SA, about 3.25 pounds SA, factory, according to the gauge I just used, and wont go high enough for DA at 80 OZ

and I just think someone must have screwed around with yours as mine was NIB from probably 1985, and they only made them between then and like 1988/1989

Edited by Kavinsky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lifeguard
1 hour ago, Kavinsky said:

I really dont know with the trigger pull, but its just one of those things where it never seemed heavy to me, and sometimes when pulling back a trigger pull gauge it can require such effort in the first place that the readings get thrown off by how much you have to pull it back. so you may think its 12 or 14 when its really 18

as for my example, its 52 to 55 OZ SA, about 3.25 pounds SA, factory, according to the gauge I just used, and wont go high enough for DA at 80 OZ

and I just think someone must have screwed around with yours as mine was NIB from probably 1985, and they only made them between then and like 1988/1989

All three are that way.  The 6906-early, 645-early, and 645-INT.  The 645-INT is like brand new, hardly used.  Really tough DA.  12lb if factory specs are right.  Polishing the drawbar and oiling it smoothed it out, but with the stock hammer spring it is hard not to nose up with it.  Takes a lot of practice.   Yeah, yours at 3.25lbs is under factory 4lbs.  But I seem to remember someone saying that a trigger scale doesn't pull like a finger so it may be off from what the finger is really feeling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kavinsky
2 hours ago, Lifeguard said:

All three are that way.  The 6906-early, 645-early, and 645-INT.  The 645-INT is like brand new, hardly used.  Really tough DA.  12lb if factory specs are right.  Polishing the drawbar and oiling it smoothed it out, but with the stock hammer spring it is hard not to nose up with it.  Takes a lot of practice.   Yeah, yours at 3.25lbs is under factory 4lbs.  But I seem to remember someone saying that a trigger scale doesn't pull like a finger so it may be off from what the finger is really feeling.

well there is a third option here, and its my hubris, as I shoot and shot DA revolvers, pre non pinned and recessed, for a very long time after my P38 kept breaking on me, as it was out of action for TWO YEARS, and STILL IS as I'm waiting on two parts, locking block and plunger to show up on the flea

as the asking price from the main source is 45 and 75 for a safety plunger and a locking block straight from walther, which was half the cost of the gun really.

so while I waited on the gunsmith to find a slide for it, and thus consequently out of disgust for the situation, well when a semi auto breaks on you, what do you go for, a revolver, and thus I treated it as the only thing out there for the longest time. unless it was something cool that showed up at the local shop

so I'm probably used to it and its not registering how heavy it is with me, as I had a beretta fail on me and the P38, and for the longest time it was revolver only with me until I learned what I had done wrong with them.

as the 4006's DA has a revolver like break to it in DA, and given the era maybe it was supposed to mimic the revolvers, as I know I let someone shoot it once and they were complaining about the DA and trying to hit with it, only to have me nail it on the next shot no problem.

as that's the thing with muscle memory, if you have it down you dont think about it and its just there,

although its nowhere near as smooth feeling as the model 29, while the smith 645 is. and it could be that I just got lucky and maybe its closer to 10 pounds on mine.

I guess long and short would be I'd have to try it side by side to really tell. although I do oil the hell out of my guns, like I soak every part on them in oil if I can sometimes, and I specifically did my best to get oil into the main spring of the 645, which is really hard to do when I first got it, although I managed it somehow as theres a gap that leads to it on the base of the gun when you take the grips off, and I just drip oiled the crap out of it

hell maybe the main spring needs to be oiled as its like it is on the third gens, except that its not part of the grip take down like is on the,

although its really just as smooth and nice as the model 29, the pre dash 3's and definitely lighter than it too, probably just based on the mass of the cylinder.

and I still remember how I was like okay I'm gonna do this that and the other thing with it, with the 645 and then the most I did was deal with the blemish on the front sight after oiling it abit.

although I did put electrical tape over the front grip strap for awhile, which helped reduce the coarseness of the thing, and it smoothed it out abit so I took it off and I rubbed of a rough edge on the trigger as the mold was just a touch off on it.

plus the painting the front sight thing I told you of that I reverted away from.

Edited by Kavinsky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lifeguard
5 hours ago, Kavinsky said:

well there is a third option here, and its my hubris, as I shoot and shot DA revolvers, pre non pinned and recessed, for a very long time after my P38 kept breaking on me, as it was out of action for TWO YEARS, and STILL IS as I'm waiting on two parts, locking block and plunger to show up on the flea

as the asking price from the main source is 45 and 75 for a safety plunger and a locking block straight from walther, which was half the cost of the gun really.

so while I waited on the gunsmith to find a slide for it, and thus consequently out of disgust for the situation, well when a semi auto breaks on you, what do you go for, a revolver, and thus I treated it as the only thing out there for the longest time. unless it was something cool that showed up at the local shop

so I'm probably used to it and its not registering how heavy it is with me, as I had a beretta fail on me and the P38, and for the longest time it was revolver only with me until I learned what I had done wrong with them.

as the 4006's DA has a revolver like break to it in DA, and given the era maybe it was supposed to mimic the revolvers, as I know I let someone shoot it once and they were complaining about the DA and trying to hit with it, only to have me nail it on the next shot no problem.

as that's the thing with muscle memory, if you have it down you dont think about it and its just there,

although its nowhere near as smooth feeling as the model 29, while the smith 645 is. and it could be that I just got lucky and maybe its closer to 10 pounds on mine.

I guess long and short would be I'd have to try it side by side to really tell. although I do oil the hell out of my guns, like I soak every part on them in oil if I can sometimes, and I specifically did my best to get oil into the main spring of the 645, which is really hard to do when I first got it, although I managed it somehow as theres a gap that leads to it on the base of the gun when you take the grips off, and I just drip oiled the crap out of it

hell maybe the main spring needs to be oiled as its like it is on the third gens, except that its not part of the grip take down like is on the,

although its really just as smooth and nice as the model 29, the pre dash 3's and definitely lighter than it too, probably just based on the mass of the cylinder.

and I still remember how I was like okay I'm gonna do this that and the other thing with it, with the 645 and then the most I did was deal with the blemish on the front sight after oiling it abit.

although I did put electrical tape over the front grip strap for awhile, which helped reduce the coarseness of the thing, and it smoothed it out abit so I took it off and I rubbed of a rough edge on the trigger as the mold was just a touch off on it.

plus the painting the front sight thing I told you of that I reverted away from.

Thanks for the tip on the main spring, I hadn't considered oiling the springs.  I just coated all the interals when I reassembled.  Looks like the 6906 is going to get broken down and reassembled again.  I'm in the middle of the 645-INT, so that's going to get the full treatment of trigger play spring adjustment and springs oiled.  

My 645-early was well loved.  So I haven't noticed the coarseness of the front strap and the bevel of the trigger is pretty smooth under my digit.  So it was likely broken in.  The back strap has some noticeable blemishes on the checker, but I can't get a replacement for that anymore.  The rear sight has much of the black and white line worn out, and it doesn't have a replacement part anymore either.  I may invest in in another 645, maybe a late, and cannibalize those parts.  Or maybe just get a nice version and turn this into my plinking one, change out the sights and put the Pachmyr grips back on.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lifeguard

Here's an odd thing I just noticed watching "Heart of Darkness" late at night on NBC.com.  Right handed Crockett, is shooting left handed?!!!!!!!  Why the hell is he doing that?  Is that a technique.....to shot off handed around a corner when it is the direction of your primary hand?

Screen%20Shot%202016-11-08%20at%2012.12.

Screen%20Shot%202016-11-08%20at%2012.11.

Later he corrects to his dominant hand:

Screen%20Shot%202016-11-08%20at%2012.14.

Seems purposeful after Arty throughs him the early version of his Bren Ten.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kavinsky
2 hours ago, Lifeguard said:

Here's an odd thing I just noticed watching "Heart of Darkness" late at night on NBC.com.  Right handed Crockett, is shooting left handed?!!!!!!!  Why the hell is he doing that?  Is that a technique.....to shot off handed around a corner when it is the direction of your primary hand?

Screen%20Shot%202016-11-08%20at%2012.12.

Screen%20Shot%202016-11-08%20at%2012.11.

Later he corrects to his dominant hand:

Screen%20Shot%202016-11-08%20at%2012.14.

Seems purposeful after Arty throughs him the early version of his Bren Ten.

That's actually his, just before they redid it for the Devo scene, as it was one of the things I told the bren ten guys, as think about it, the story behind it was that it was hard chromed and polished to show up better in the night scenes, and this was probably its first real scene, and afterwards this was shot:

and they figured since it was all black they could get away with it, as its a bren ten special forces full sized model, which explains why the barrel is black while the rest of the gun looks like a hard chromed standard model,

and after I posted this someone pointed this out on their ad for one lol also try e,bay for the parts, you'd be surprised about what shows up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lifeguard
14 minutes ago, Kavinsky said:

That's actually his, just before they redid it for the Devo scene, as it was one of the things I told the bren ten guys, as think about it, the story behind it was that it was hard chromed and polished to show up better in the night scenes, and this was probably its first real scene, and afterwards this was shot:

and they figured since it was all black they could get away with it, as its a bren ten special forces full sized model, which explains why the barrel is black while the rest of the gun looks like a hard chromed standard model,

and after I posted this someone pointed this out on their ad for one lol also try e,bay for the parts, you'd be surprised about what shows up.

Yeah, i said it was his.  I forget the black barrel.  Is the barrel black in the standard version?  The slide is, so I'm not sure if the barrel is?  Now I'm going to have to look for pics of it racked open.  I try eBay but the search terms are so broad to find anything because people could be calling it anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kavinsky
31 minutes ago, Lifeguard said:

Yeah, i said it was his.  I forget the black barrel.  Is the barrel black in the standard version?  The slide is, so I'm not sure if the barrel is?  Now I'm going to have to look for pics of it racked open.  I try eBay but the search terms are so broad to find anything because people could be calling it anything.

yup it is, as I found this magazine on the flea last night

s-l1600a.jpg

and it really makes me wanna have a god damn bren ten too lol

s-l1600a.jpg

Edited by Kavinsky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lifeguard
8 minutes ago, Kavinsky said:

yup it is, as I found this magazine on the flea last night

 

and it really makes me wanna have a god damn bren ten too lol

 

Yeah, so hard chroming the slide is all that is needed, leave the barrel black.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kavinsky
3 hours ago, Lifeguard said:

Yeah, so hard chroming the slide is all that is needed, leave the barrel black.

yup, also just relooking at the photos are you sure he's holding it left handed, as it looks more like he's holding it on his right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lifeguard
17 hours ago, Kavinsky said:

yup, also just relooking at the photos are you sure he's holding it left handed, as it looks more like he's holding it on his right.

Yes, I clearly see his left index finger on the trigger during the shoots behind the container.  All four fingers of his right hand are visible wrapped around his left fingers.  When Arty ventilates the limo, he's back with it in his right hand with right finger on the trigger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now