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Vicefan7777

The Miami Vice Testarossa Auction

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Dadrian

It's one of the 2 real TRs. They tried to sell it last year on Mecum auction, but the owner wants like a million dollars and the the bidding only went to $400k. Just too much money for ANY 1986 Testarossa. 

Its also been on eBay a few times. 

We discussed it last year around the time of auction if you do a search. 

The other actual MV TR is still at the Swap Shop in Ft. Lauderdale. 

Edited by Dadrian
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Sonny-Burnett
34 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

It's one of the 2 real TRs.  

The issue was discussed at length here:

My remaining doubts about the authenticity of the car center around missing documentation from Universal establishing that the car was series driven. There was no title from Universal or any other documentation from Universal that would establish series-driven provenance as far as I've seen. Why was that documentation never provided? The 'proof' seems to center around repair tickets produced by a local Ferrari shop and records produced by Ferrari (which I have not seen and were not posted by the auction house) that the chassis number is one of 2 delivered to Universal and the apparent absence of other sale documents to Universal for any other cars. Does that prove the car was series driven, and in which episodes?  Remember there were 2 real Testas claimed to be used in the show and one stunt car built by Roberts. Again, I was not at either auction but the docs available were posted at the time, and there was nothing from Universal that I recall seeing.  That the car did not sell in the range it was expected tells me bidders also shared provenance concerns, and perhaps mechanical issues played into the bidding.  On the other hand, king77 posted the most informative comments on that in the other thread, and he seemed to be in the know about the car and its provenance. He indicated the odds are long that the car was not series driven given the Ferrari sale docs that he apparently saw, and that remaining provenance issues center around what level of participation the car had in the series.  I understand his points but  to me (and I suspect the bidders) the proof to lay this to rest would be something from Universal establishing that the chassis was series driven, and specifically where.

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Dadrian

Oh wow. Good info. I thought we had all agreed there was enough documentation. Thanks for the reminder!

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Sonny-Burnett
1 hour ago, Dadrian said:

Oh wow. Good info. I thought we had all agreed there was enough documentation. Thanks for the reminder!

Who knows...it seems there is now more information on the car that I have not yet seen as king77 alluded to, and he seems convinced of the car's authenticity.  I had not seen any sale docs from Ferrari to Universal and they apparently were made available to bidders, and this new listing references a copy of a Universal title doc. I have to acknowledge that if these docs exist, and if proven that only 2 chassis numbers were delivered by Ferrari to Universal in that time frame, it is hard to argue against the authenticity of the car. What holds me back is something from Universal stating its authenticity, such as a title and something referencing the eps it was driven in.  Re the Daytonas, CD has Universal docs referencing the VIN numbers of the series driven cars and it is not difficult to identify which of the 2 series cars is driven in which episode if you look closely because Car 1 and 4 had unique differences. I don't know if the same is true for the Testas.

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king77

Based on information I looked into myself and was provided by Ferrari and the seller this car was one of 2 black TR’s delivered to NBC/Universal. The question isn’t whether it was one of the Cars delivered to NBC, it was and that is 100% iron clad. The question is what level of show participation did this car have. For all I know it was driven off screen by producers, directors, actors… and the other car at the Swap Shop was used 100% in the show as the hero car and the Pantera was the stunt car.

The term “Hero Car” in our industry indicates that it was the prime car used for most of the shots and kept in working order. While the other car(s) were used considerably less for specific reasons. This car could have been the static car, used for non-moving scenes and the other the Hero. There just isn’t any hard documentation from NBC or somebody with the production with production records who had knowledge about the cars that this car was 100% the Hero. If there was documentation that noted this chassis as car #1, and scripts, production calls, outlines or any other documentation noting car #1 to be used for specific shots. Then I would be on board.

If the repair docs are legit, which they probably are, the car was used and repaired and paid for by the Miami Vice production. But again, who broke it. A production assistant getting donuts, or DJ on screen? That question cannot be answered with the documentation I seen at its 1st attempt at auction in Monterey when it topped out at $800K The car reappeared for a second attempt in Florida when it hit $400K. I was not present at the Florida auction. Rumor in Monterey was that it was shilled, but then again in our industry it’s buyer beware.

Magnum PI used 2 real Ferrari's and one kit car as the stunt car for each season. Switching out models 2 times. However a 3rd Ferrari was used for 2 scenes during the 1st season. Both cars were unavailable for some reason. Selleck didn’t fit into the cars so they were adjusted. Padding removed and seats moved back as far as possible so it kind of looked like he fit. But this car had none of those modifications as somebody else was getting into it. The person who has this 3rd Ferrari still owns it, has a letter from the production company, CBS, copies of the check he was paid and some other paperwork and photos. It was used for 2 shots in 1981 and he has all this info.

My personal opinion is that the owner and Title company propped it up on Ebay to see if they could get the Ferrari or the Miami Vice community to provide more documentation. Documentation that tied this serial number to specific episodes and scenes or a copy of the original bill of sale from the show to the first owner to bridge the ownership gap from NBC to the public. Ferrari NA has all the info that shows the 2 VIN's delivered to NBC/Universal for use in the show. and this is one of those chassis numbers. But delivered to and screen/show used are 2 different animals.

If you’re a fan, who wouldn’t want the TR in the last shot of Freefall? But based on all the info on this car, and I suspect the Swap Shop car. You could buy both and not be 100% sure you have that car. That Ferrari could have been a rental while the other 2 were in the shop. The bridging documentation just doesn’t exist. The episode/scene callouts don't exist. There is no post production documentation. There is no documentation tying this car to specific episode and scenes. And without it the best I can say, is that its 1 of 2 Black 1986 TR’s delivered to NBC by Ferrari for their use.

Odds are this car and the Swap Shop car were both probably used and filmed on screen. So for $90K I would take that chance and then go to work trying to get more documentation. But for $400k plus, I would not with the documentation provided.

 

 

Edited by king77
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Sonny-Burnett

Very nice summary and thanks for the further details, king77. So you have seen the Ferrari sale docs to Universal indicating the 2 chassis numbers, and so confirm of delivery is established. I can't recall seeing those sale docs before in the posted listings.  I completely agree with you that proof of delivery is not the same as proof of screen-used. With the 2 Testas delivered to the show, it may be that both cars were screen driven equally or perhaps one was mainly for close-ups as was the case with the Daytona Car 4, while the other was the heavy driver ...and where this car is today there is a need for some documentation proving it was series driven in order to be iron-clad in its provenance. That can only come from Universal or someone on the payroll, and not from repair records by a local dealer. I think I tried making that point to the argumentative C-T poster in the other thread.  I was also not aware of the "Hero" distinction so thanks for clearing that up. And I think you are spot on about the postings in Ebay, and in this Forum as well as Ferrarichat by the Title/lien holder that he was fishing for more documentation/history by this group and others to further prop up the value of his car at auction.

From what you have seen in the Ferrari sale docs, were the 2 Testas  the same in terms of body and interior? If so, identifying them on screen may not be as simple as was the case with the Daytonas. Both Daytonas were different with some noticeable interior and exterior differences.  And changes may have been made after the show.   Also re the Monterrey auction, what did you mean about the rumors of the car being "shilled"?

Also agree that bridging docs to the first owner after the show would be helpful, and records of any changes made to the interior to bridge to how it looks today vs in the series.  I could see the car selling for some premium above what Testas of this era normally go for, at least in part because it was connected to Universal in the right time period. I think I read some time ago that these cars have been rising in value in the last few years but I am no expert in Testarossa resale values.

Edited by Sonny-Burnett
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king77
2 hours ago, Sonny-Burnett said:

Very nice summary and thanks for the further details, king77. So you have seen the Ferrari sale docs to Universal indicating the 2 chassis numbers, and so confirm of delivery is established. I can't recall seeing those sale docs before in the posted listings.  I completely agree with you that proof of delivery is not the same as proof of screen-used. With the 2 Testas delivered to the show, it may be that both cars were screen driven equally or perhaps one was mainly for close-ups as was the case with the Daytona Car 4, while the other was the heavy driver ...and where this car is today there is a need for some documentation proving it was series driven in order to be iron-clad in its provenance. That can only come from Universal or someone on the payroll, and not from repair records by a local dealer. I think I tried making that point to the argumentative C-T poster in the other thread.  I was also not aware of the "Hero" distinction so thanks for clearing that up. And I think you are spot on about the postings in Ebay, and in this Forum as well as Ferrarichat by the Title/lien holder that he was fishing for more documentation/history by this group and others to further prop up the value of his car at auction.

From what you have seen in the Ferrari sale docs, were the 2 Testas  the same in terms of body and interior? If so, identifying them on screen may not be as simple as was the case with the Daytonas. Both Daytonas were different with some noticeable interior and exterior differences.  And changes may have been made after the show.   Also re the Monterrey auction, what did you mean about the rumors of the car being "shilled"?

Also agree that bridging docs to the first owner after the show would be helpful, and records of any changes made to the interior to bridge to how it looks today vs in the series.  I could see the car selling for some premium above what Testas of this era normally go for, at least in part because it was connected to Universal in the right time period. I think I read some time ago that these cars have been rising in value in the last few years but I am no expert in Testarossa resale values.

The cars were delivered as twins, black and tan. As you know Ferrari doesn't roll cars off the line like Ford. So 2 cars can be identical and next to each other in the line, but have chassis numbers that are no where near consecutive. The seller has Ferrari documentation that notes the 2 chassis numbers as being delivered to NBC, and his car is one of those numbers. If you have a friend who owns a Ferrari he can make a call into his shop and get the same info. Almost all Ferrari service shops know about Miami Vice and can get the info on the chassis number(s). It may cost some donuts, but it can be had.

Shilling is artificial bidding to pump up a cars value. It's a dirty little secret. Many times a seller will get paid by the owner a percentage based on price, so it's in the sellers best interest to pump up a car. Sometimes a buyer will bid up the price knowing his bid won't pop the reserve but has a similar car he will be selling at a later date and wants to drive up the market. Sometimes a buyer will have a "Deal" with another buyer. If my car goes for 1-mil, then I will buy yours for $750K. so Buyer 1 keeps pumping up the bids under the reserve until he is alone or the number is hit by a second buyer. The second buyer overpays and buyer 1 makes his deal. I think this happens all the time as so many cars hit the reserve then the bidding stops, but that is only my opinion.

I have heard stories of sellers paying a buyer or 2 to bump up the bids to get value. And sometimes the seller plants 2 buyers to bid up a car, hoping a 3rd will bite. Many times when 3 people bid, you always hear grumbling about this. In Monterrey 3 people were bidding, and I believe at least one of them only bid on the TR. This is getting rarer by the auction, but again, I fully believe it happens.

There was zero info at Monterrey that was able to show that the car was sold by NBC to whomever. Maybe there is now, but at Monterrey there wasn't.

There is a part of me that that believes the following and I have zero information, it's only a theory/hunch. This hunch is based solely on the information I seen at Monterrey and documents that weren't at Monterrey but should have been, well over a year ago.

The cars were never sold to NBC Universal but loaned by Ferrari NA to NBC. NBC/Universal titled the cars for use on city streets and when the show ended they went back to Ferrari, or sold. Just like a Ford car loan, you title the car, you pay the gas, insurance, repair and tires, but Ford owns the car. And when you pay it off, they send you the title. If you stop paying or trade it in for another before the loan is over the car goes back to Ford and you cannot sell it, it's gone. But in this case since I believe the cars were loaned, there is no paperwork noting a sale from Ferrari to NBC. It's just a hunch.

Again, there is some delivery paperwork with the car, but no actual sale documentation from Ferrari NA or a specific Ferrari dealer to NBC noting a sale. Maybe there isn't any available when it was sold off. But I think it was never bought originally.

NBC pays for the upkeep/damage and upon end of use the cars go back to Ferrari for their use/sale. The documentation tells us there was work needed to be done after the show ended to get both cars in salable condition. And if memory serves me, the documentation/cost write up form from the local Ferrari dealer notes this. NBC pays the cost to resale the cars and Ferrari sells them. 

To buy into my theory you have to realize that when a celeb car is sold, the new owner cherishes the paperwork that shows who owned it. They never lose it or fail to show it. It's what makes it worth more. And those cars always have that paperwork that has that celeb name on it when it is presented for sale. It bothers me that those docs are missing, but again I have a theory.

I think both cars were fixed and sold off to individual private parties after the show. And the owner on the Bill of Sale was either Ferrari NA or the local Ferrari dealer. If it was me, I would have the original BOS, a copy of my check written out to NBC and the original or copy or the check returned to the bank, signed and endorsed by NBC. If it was a bank check i would have a copy of that, and would have requested the bank send me the signed/endorsed copy. The banks did that in those days. No we see it on line and make copies. If it was cash, I would also have a receipt that cash was presented and accepted by NBC. With a signature of whomever for NBC who accepted the money. Plus everybody from NBC has a card, I would make sure I got their card and had them write up who they were at NBC at that time, along with an office number, or thier boss and then get his info.

The car is low mileage so whomever bought it din't buy it for a daily driver. IMO they knew exactly what they were buying and stuffed it in a storage for an investment. So if they knew what it was, bought it for an investment they would have the paperwork in mint condition, or at least copies. We all make multiple copies just in case.

It's either the NBC documentation was lost by the original owner, but one has to believe if you buy a celeb car, you keep the docs. Or the original bill of sale says Ferrari and not NBC Universal, which could frighten a buyer. There is also a side theory that both cars were salvaged and carry a salvage title. But again, if the BOS notes NBC I would want to show it.

Again, it's just a theory. But even with a Bill of Sale from Michael Mann himself, it still doesn't tell me what this car did on screen, if it was on screen. It would be a bill of sale from the top producer of the show who in his position had no clue what chassis number was used in what scene. He probably only cared that the car looked right in the dailies.

Edited by king77
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Daytona74

A "standard" Testarossa from the mid 80s in good nick and with no expensive repairs needed will fetch upwards of $130,000 these days. They have sky rocketed in recent years. I remember I saw a red one at a gas station here a few years ago, it looked flawless, and the owner had just bought it that day (still had the "red numbers" license plates that you need here to move an unregistered car) for 50,000 euros, which was about $75,000 back then. I think he told me it was an '89 model.

If you watch Storage Wars, they often say "to the right buyer, it could be worth $ xx". And it's going to be the same with that car. There is probably no way it will sell for under 100 grand, if a bog standard Testarossa that's been looked after will already fetch 130 grand any day. Even if you factor in that on a TV show, the production crew will have put it through its paces. Like they did with the two replica Daytonas. This Testarossa would have to be in really poor condition to justify $90 grand or anything like that. With just 16,000 miles on the odometer of a 30 year old car, no less.

And if you've got somebody with deep enough pockets who either collects specialty cars or was just a big fan of the show as a kid and doesn't know what to do with all their money nowadays, then it's going to be anybody's guess what they are willing to pay for it. And the kind of flawless documentation that this car seems to have will only add to the price tag. Yes, maybe there is no documentation to pin this car to actual filming schedules. But that should do it no harm. You've got a letter from Ferrari North America, you've got a copy of NBC's title to the car, the works. This is one of the two cars that are the real deal. And that's what will count in terms of its sale price.

Edited by Daytona74

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king77

When I seen the car in Monterrey it needed a ton of work, inside and out. Now the recent ad notes it had an engine out service. So that is not needed. But that being said, the interior carpets were replaced, but they were not factory. So that would need to be replaced with factory. The suspension looked very worn and the bushings I was able to see were all cracked due to sitting for so long. The seats were in decent shape, but if they couldn't be cleaned properly, add new factory leather to the tab. Drive train inspected and tuned, which needs to happen for sitting so long.

My son's uncle is selling his 87 Black TR for $125K, almost 30K miles. It sat in storage from 1993 to 2015. He admitted to spending over $40K to get it in presentable condition. I believe he spent more but didn't want to upset his wife with the real cost. Engine and trans out service. Bunch of suspension removed and refreshed or replaced, bearings, things tightened up, seats removed and interior cleaned, re sprayed and new tires. Took about 9 months to complete.

It's just my personal opinion that I would not invest more than $90K for the car I seen. Because I would have to spend another 50K-70K and probably a year to get it factory fresh. I love the show and would love to have the car, but again, I would want to put it back into pristine condition and that costs. No doubt another buyer will be happy the way it is.

Common sense and the provenance the seller had at Monterrey tells a person it was on screen and driven by DJ. The odds it was used solely for off screen purposes is long. But for a $400K+ investment, which is what I feel it will sell for. But, restoring the car 100% may not be a wise investment due to the cars value being show used and not due to market. It makes almost no sense to return the car to factory fresh, because you may never get your investment back.

I hope the seller does well because it will bring attention to Vice, and I hope the new owner invests the money to make it pristine.

 

 

 

 

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Daytona74
vor 51 Minuten schrieb king77:

But, restoring the car 100% may not be a wise investment due to the cars value being show used and not due to market. It makes almost no sense to return the car to factory fresh, because you may never get your investment back.

 

That's often the tricky part about restoring a "famous" car. If you return it to factory condition, you will have a great looking car that will drive like new. But you will erase much of its history. You can reupholster the leather seats and whatnot, but then you will end up with seats that Don Johnson or Philip Michael Thomas arguably  never sat in. So it'll all be about carefully returning it to working order while keeping its patina.

I didn't know that the Miami Vice Testarossa was actually in such bad condition though. You could probably cut some of the cost of fixing it by doing things yourself. An 80s sports car like the Testarossa should be relatively straightforward for the above average mechanically experienced layperson, compared to any 2016 Ferrari. But I just looked on eBay, even one used brake caliper for the Testarossa will set you back around $700. A set of four used exhaust manifolds (apparently the TR had three exit pipes per manifold)  is around $2,800. And that list will only get worse the more parts you will need.

Maybe in terms of pure "value for money", a ballpark figure of $100,000 isn't unreasonable after all. But again. the right buyer who doesn't know what to do with all their money could render any calculations like that meaningless. :)

Edited by Daytona74

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Sonny-Burnett
18 hours ago, king77 said:

The cars were delivered as twins, black and tan...

Shilling is artificial bidding to pump up a cars value...

There was zero info at Monterrey that was able to show that the car was sold by NBC to whomever. Maybe there is now, but at Monterrey there wasn't.

There is a part of me that that believes the following and I have zero information, it's only a theory/hunch. This hunch is based solely on the information I seen at Monterrey and documents that weren't at Monterrey but should have been, well over a year ago.

The cars were never sold to NBC Universal but loaned by Ferrari NA to NBC...

Again, there is some delivery paperwork with the car, but no actual sale documentation from Ferrari NA or a specific Ferrari dealer to NBC noting a sale. Maybe there isn't any available when it was sold off. But I think it was never bought originally.

I think both cars were fixed and sold off to individual private parties after the show. And the owner on the Bill of Sale was either Ferrari NA or the local Ferrari dealer.

It's either the NBC documentation was lost by the original owner, but one has to believe if you buy a celeb car, you keep the docs. Or the original bill of sale says Ferrari and not NBC Universal, which could frighten a buyer. There is also a side theory that both cars were salvaged and carry a salvage title. But again, if the BOS notes NBC I would want to show it.

Again, it's just a theory. But even with a Bill of Sale from Michael Mann himself, it still doesn't tell me what this car did on screen, if it was on screen. It would be a bill of sale from the top producer of the show who in his position had no clue what chassis number was used in what scene. He probably only cared that the car looked right in the dailies.

Same colors and interior specs so that would make spotting the 2 cars in the Series on screen very difficult. And I have not seen anything on differentiators that would allow such a visual comparison when watching particular episodes. If there were unique differences between the cars then that could be identified and added to the Seller's provenance at auction.

Ah ok on shilling. I have seen this before as well in Ebay with certain Resellers of Daytonas that I have followed over the years. Setting a Reserve price up in the stratosphere and using fake bids from associates to bid up near the reserve price and hope someone bites. One of the more unscrupulous practices of a particular Reseller who also alleged some of his cars were series driven, when we already knew otherwise. Given the hype and pitches the Lienholder made in here, on Ebay and Ferrarichat I am not at all surprised if this may actually have occurred with the car at auction. And the relatively small number of bidders tends to reinforce that thought.

An interesting theory about the cars leased to the show, as they were a flagship car at the time for Ferrari and perhaps they wanted to retain total control over the cars and how they were used, given that they were in the process of filing lawsuits against a number of Daytona replica makers around that time. Remember the reason for introducing the Testa was the hasty departure of the replica Daytonas under threat of lawsuit.  If they sold the cars or gifted them to Universal as has been reported, then Ferrari would not retain any control over how the cars were used or even potentially modified in the series. I also find it hard to believe that the first buyer of the car would not have asked for and retained any and all paperwork from Universal to establish provenance for the car and to add value for a future resale. That's one reason I was so skeptical when the lienholder first posted in here and could produce NOTHING from Universal establishing its use in the show.

Another point is that since this car has been on the market some time, has been marketed and advertised in various publications and articles that I've seen, I would think any previous owners would have stepped forward to contact the Seller about what he knows and may have in the form of documentation. And the Seller would surely have trumpeted any such findings by now as well. So does lend credence to your theory that either the docs never existed or that the initial owner never obtained or retained these docs. And I find the latter hard to believe.

 

 

Edited by Sonny-Burnett

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Sonny-Burnett
1 hour ago, king77 said:

When I seen the car in Monterrey it needed a ton of work, inside and out.

Common sense and the provenance the seller had at Monterrey tells a person it was on screen and driven by DJ. The odds it was used solely for off screen purposes is long. But for a $400K+ investment, which is what I feel it will sell for. But, restoring the car 100% may not be a wise investment due to the cars value being show used and not due to market. It makes almost no sense to return the car to factory fresh, because you may never get your investment back.

I hope the seller does well because it will bring attention to Vice, and I hope the new owner invests the money to make it pristine.

 

For  a true fan of the show with deep pockets, I would certainly take on making needed mechanical repairs and replace non-OEM Ferrari items that may have been added such as carpets with original OEM parts for the period if available. And one thing I have learned from a local mechanic familiar with Ferrari work, is that it is always wise to have a Ferrari dealer work on the cars because future buyers will want to see the mechanical repair history of the car through a Ferrari dealer. Otherwise, I am told the car will lose value.  Not sure I would make a lot of other interior cosmetic changes though as I would think that may affect the character of the car to future interested buyers of the car who want it as it was in the series.  I was truly astounded when this car was bid to upwards of $500K or so as I am recalling, because I thought it was way out of bounds for Testas of that era even with this car's potential pedigree. And if those bids were shilled it makes more sense to me now.  That the Seller never accepted those bids or even did an after auction sale in that price range also lends credence to the potential shilling that may have taken place.

But all in all I agree that I do hope whoever buys the car does further research on its provenance and may even want to share his findings and his work on the car with fans of Vice.

Edited by Sonny-Burnett

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Daytona74
vor einer Stunde schrieb Sonny-Burnett:

And one thing I have learned from a local mechanic familiar with Ferrari work, is that it is always wise to have a Ferrari dealer work on the cars because future buyers will want to see the mechanical repair history of the car through a Ferrari dealer. Otherwise, I am told the car will lose value.

 

Depends a bit on what kind of money you can still front after you've bought the car, and if you are buying it for your own enjoyment or as a financial investment.

But either way, it's never a good idea to buy a "fixer upper" on a shoestring budget. Whether you're fixing up an 80s Ford Mustang or a Ferrari. If you can just about afford to buy this particular Testarossa for 90 or 100 grand and that's nearing the top end of your whole budget, you probably won't have a lot of fun with it.

Edited by Daytona74

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Sonny-Burnett
2 hours ago, Daytona74 said:

 

Depends a bit on what kind of money you can still front after you've bought the car, and if you are buying it for your own enjoyment or as a financial investment.

But either way, it's never a good idea to buy a "fixer upper" on a shoestring budget. Whether you're fixing up an 80s Ford Mustang or a Ferrari. If you can just about afford to buy this particular Testarossa for 90 or 100 grand and that's nearing the top end of your whole budget, you probably won't have a lot of fun with it.

As I said, 'For a true fan of the show with deep pockets...' , so of course a car of this nature will cost plenty to repair using Vintage Ferrari parts. Dealers will charge a premium for their expertise, use of original parts, and for the value that they bring to a future sale.  I've already experienced the pricing of the few vintage Ferrari parts on my Daytona. NOS vintage Ferrari front amber lenses for a Daytona are ridiculously priced if you can even find them, and that is not even for mechanical parts on something like this Testa. And I really don't see this car being purchased by someone who cannot afford to make repairs, because I suspect the Seller is still looking for something in the half million dollar plus range before he will part with it.

Edited by Sonny-Burnett

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Daytona74
vor 43 Minuten schrieb Sonny-Burnett:

And I really don't see this car being purchased by someone who cannot afford to make repairs, because I suspect the Seller is still looking for something in the half million dollar plus range before he will part with it.

Right...all I meant was, anybody looking to strike a $100K bargain on this car might be disappointed if they don't have the proper means to do all the repairs or have them done. Even if there is no deep pocket buyer going to snap it up for close to half a million, and the car actually ends up going for $100K.

If it was me,  I would feel tempted...:) I've got 20-plus years experience fixing up and repairing my own cars, as a hobby, and a top of the line 80s sports car like the Testarossa would probably still be full of things under the engine cover that I have never seen before, but I would probably be able to do a good number of the standard jobs on it myself...;)

Sadly, I don't have $100K just lying around to spend on a car... :(

Edited by Daytona74

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Mvice8489

Interesting thread.  But, guys, this car will NEVER sell for under $400k .  The MV provenance adds huge value to it if it is in fact associated with the show. 

Think about the Daytona replicas. They are $30K cars at best.  But Camera Daytonas' car (which supposedly was used on the show) would be worth multiples of that. 

   In fact, I will make a "pubic offer" right now for his car.....$USD 100K CASH!!   CD please contact me if U want to sell :)   Seriously

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king77

Got some info over the weekend. Back in the office.

First the CARFAX i ran this AM, next post will be some other info.

1/9/2017 CARFAX Vehicle History Report for this 1986 FERRARI TESTAROSSA: ZFFSA17AXG0063631 https://www.carfax.com/showroom/#/report/ZFFSA17AXG0063631 1/4 For Personal Use Only Vehicle Information: 1986 FERRARI TESTAROSSA VIN: ZFFSA17AXG0063631 COUPE 4.9L V12 FI GASOLINE REAR WHEEL DRIVE Standard Equipment | Safety Options This CARFAX Vehicle History Report is based only on information supplied to CARFAX and available as of 1/9/17 at 12:57:47 PM (EST). Other information about this vehicle, including problems, may not have been reported to CARFAX. Use this report as one important tool, along with a vehicle inspection and test drive, to make a better decision about your next used car. Title History CARFAX guarantees the information in this section Summary Salvage | Junk | Rebuilt | Fire | Flood | Hail | Lemon Guaranteed No Problem Not Actual Mileage | Exceeds Mechanical Limits Guaranteed No Problem GUARANTEED ­ None of these major title problems were reported by a state Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV). If you find that any of these title problems were reported by a DMV and not included in this report, CARFAX will buy this vehicle back.Register | View Terms | View Certificate Additional History Not all accidents / issues are reported to CARFAX Summary Total Loss No total loss reported to CARFAX. No Issues Reported Structural Damage No structural damage reported to CARFAX. No Issues Reported Airbag Deployment No airbag deployment reported to CARFAX. No Issues Reported Odometer Check Inconsistent mileage indicated. Mileage Inconsistency Accident / Damage No accidents or damage reported to CARFAX. No Issues Reported Manufacturer Recall Check with an authorized Ferrari dealer for any open recalls. No Recalls Reported Basic Warranty No data reported to CARFAX. No Data Reported No accident / damage reported to CARFAX 3 Service history records 20 Detailed records available 1/9/2017 CARFAX Vehicle History Report for this 1986 FERRARI TESTAROSSA: ZFFSA17AXG0063631 https://www.carfax.com/showroom/#/report/ZFFSA17AXG0063631 2/4 Glossary The mileage reported here conflicts with this vehicle's odometer history. Ask a mechanic or the seller to confirm the actual mileage ­ this entry may just be a clerical error. View other FERRARI TESTAROSSA vehicles with FREE CARFAX Reports

Detailed History Date: Mileage: Source: Comments: 06/15/1986 16,114 The Collection Coral Gables, FL 305­444­5555 thecollection.com Vehicle sold MILEAGE INCONSISTENCY

06/20/1990 6,015 Florida Motor Vehicle Dept. Miami, FL Odometer reading reported

07/09/1991 10,000 Florida Inspection Station Miami, FL Failed emissions inspection

08/30/1991 Florida Inspection Station Miami, FL Passed emissions inspection

11/13/1992 12,000 Florida Inspection Station Miami, FL Passed emissions inspection

11/12/1993 13,000 Florida Inspection Station Miami, FL Passed emissions inspection

12/10/1994 14,000 Florida Inspection Station Miami, FL Passed emissions inspection

07/22/1995 Florida Inspection Station Miami, FL Failed emissions inspection

09/25/1996 Florida Inspection Station Miami, FL Passed emissions inspection

04/18/1997 15,000 Florida Inspection Station Miami, FL Passed emissions inspection

04/15/2000 Florida Inspection Station Miami, FL Passed emissions inspection

04/19/2001 Florida Motor Vehicle Dept. Miami, FL Title #0043236222 Title issued or updated

07/29/2005 THE COLLECTION Coral Gables, FL 305­444­5555 thecollection.com Maintenance inspection completed

08/22/2011 16,000 Florida Motor Vehicle Dept. Miami, FL Odometer reading reported

08/24/2011 Florida Motor Vehicle Dept. Miami, FL Title #0043236222 Title issued or updated Duplicate title issued Titled or registered as personal vehicle Loan or lien reported Registration updated when owner moved the vehicle to a new location Vehicle color noted as White 08/26/2011 European Car Sales Of America, Inc Miami, FL 305­448­2989 goautomiami.com Drivability/performance checked

08/05/2015 16,100 Florida Motor Vehicle Dept. Vehicle purchase reported

08/06/2015 Florida Motor Vehicle Dept. Miami, FL Title #0043236222 Title issued or updated New owner reported Vehicle color noted as White

08/13/2015 16,141 California Inspection Station Seaside, CA Failed emissions inspection

08/13/2015 Hans Auto Repair Seaside, CA 831­583­9820 hansautorepair.com

Vehicle serviced Print this CARFAX Report and take it to your pre­purchase inspection

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king77
On 1/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, Mvice8489 said:

Interesting thread.  But, guys, this car will NEVER sell for under $400k .  The MV provenance adds huge value to it if it is in fact associated with the show. 

Think about the Daytona replicas. They are $30K cars at best.  But Camera Daytonas' car (which supposedly was used on the show) would be worth multiples of that. 

   In fact, I will make a "pubic offer" right now for his car.....$USD 100K CASH!!   CD please contact me if U want to sell :)   Seriously

I think you may have misunderstood me. #1 I am a huge MV fan and if I had a million laying around I would buy it. But like many, I don’t.

In my opinion I would only pay $90K or so for the car I seen at Monterrey. I would want to make it mint, as factory fresh as possible. That takes money and time. And I would want to be in a position that when the restoration is over, the market value hasn’t dipped below what I invested. But that’s just me. And for me that ballparks the car around the market value of a mint 86 TR, maybe a little more.

The value of the connection to Miami Vice outweighs the real value of a 86 TR itself. A buyer interested in making it factory fresh will need to invest more. Let’s say the car hammers at $450K. The new owner, if he wants to do a restoration to get it factory fresh and drivable/reliable condition will need to invest another $50K or more and time, IMO. Fast forward to March 1, 2017 and you’re in the car for $500K plus. Odds are you will not get $500K plus if you decide to sell it again.

Odds are slim that a star car of this type will skyrocket in value, they rarely do. And the one’s that do are always 1 of’s. Most hit a pinnacle then drop off as the fans of the show become less interested or die off. There are 2 of these cars, almost identical in nature so if the Swap Shop decided to sell theirs for less than what you paid, the value of your car goes down.

Of course the value could skyrocket, but as I noted earlier very few cars do. The $475K in Florida last year really cements my position that Monterrey was shilled bidding. Nothing will convince me that it was a real bidding. If it wasn't shilled bidding, then the car would have easily gotten to the $600K very easily mark in Florida and sold off as the $600K a few months earlier set the bar. The value of the car is the show and that cost is hard to judge.

If there is a deep pocket buyer who has to have this car and money was no object, why not buy it on E-Bay when it was listed. Or make an offer for 1-mil. Maybe the buyer wouldn’t take it then, but once the car was a no-sale at Monterey when why not contact that buyer and make a deal. Or make a deal after Florida? This tells me there isn’t and the market will dictate the value and right now that value is around $475K based on Florida, but IMO, I think there was bidding shenanigans in Monterey, so if there why not Florida? Now the car is listed at no reserve so one can reasonably assume the owner will be satisfied if it hits $475K again. 3 auctions in a 1.5 year span and 3 no sales tells me we may not have hit the basement on this car. Maybe the 4th auction will be the charm.

Something that was odd. This car’s vin is ZFFSA17AXG006361 and I believe the Swap Shops is ZFFSA17AXG0063259. However when that number is run, it comes back with nothing. However there is a hit on a similar 86 TR and its vin is ZFFSA17AXG2063259. This is odd because the 11th character in a Ferrari vin is the plant where the car is built. And every Ferrari is supposed to be 0 for Maranello, the 63295 car notes a 2 in that position. That vin # has no service records available. So there is a good chance it sold to the Swap Shop and all maintenance was done by themselves, if any. So the big question is if the car was sold to the Swap Shop how come there is no record of a sale, no Ferrari maintenance, no emissions testing, no anything?

I believe I have found the man that knows, I have reached out and he has indicated when he gets some time, he will call me back sometime this week. Once he does I will update.

 

 

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Mvice8489

Agree 100%.   Please continue the write-up if u get more details

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Sonny-Burnett
5 hours ago, king77 said:

Something that was odd. This car’s vin is ZFFSA17AXG006361 and I believe the Swap Shops is ZFFSA17AXG0063259. However when that number is run, it comes back with nothing. However there is a hit on a similar 86 TR and its vin is ZFFSA17AXG2063259. This is odd because the 11th character in a Ferrari vin is the plant where the car is built. And every Ferrari is supposed to be 0 for Maranello, the 63295 car notes a 2 in that position. That vin # has no service records available. So there is a good chance it sold to the Swap Shop and all maintenance was done by themselves, if any. So the big question is if the car was sold to the Swap Shop how come there is no record of a sale, no Ferrari maintenance, no emissions testing, no anything?

I believe I have found the man that knows, I have reached out and he has indicated when he gets some time, he will call me back sometime this week. Once he does I will update.

On the 2nd Vin that has no maintenance history, I would have expected to see Shelton service records in the Ferrari data base that would lineup with maintenance presumably done on the first car, that also had carbon copies of same. And not understanding how this swap shop Vin would not indicate the same plant as the first car as they presumably were delivered at around the same time to Universal. Interesting, does this suggest to you the swap car may not be legit? Where did you obtain the VIN for the swap shop car?

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king77
13 hours ago, Sonny-Burnett said:

On the 2nd Vin that has no maintenance history, I would have expected to see Shelton service records in the Ferrari data base that would lineup with maintenance presumably done on the first car, that also had carbon copies of same. And not understanding how this swap shop Vin would not indicate the same plant as the first car as they presumably were delivered at around the same time to Universal. Interesting, does this suggest to you the swap car may not be legit? Where did you obtain the VIN for the swap shop car?

As far as the VIN for Swap Shop car, I ran the same sequence except the last 5 numbers, which we know from the seller of this car docs. Assuming 2 identical 86 TR's were delivered with all other characters the same I ran the VIN. Nothing came back but CarFax noted a similar 86 TR, with those last 5 numbers. When I seen the 2 I knew something was not right as that 11th character should be 0. Check out Red Headed here for VIN decoder. http://www.red-headed.com/vin_plant.html

Nothing wrong with no Shelton entries as back then as we didn’t have the connected system we have now. For example if work on your car yourself, no doubt you probably do not have a connected terminal that reports to the data base. So every repair, oil change or tire rotation goes un reported. I recently bought a used Porsche Cayenne Turbo. 25 CarFax entries, the other one I was eyeing, 5. So much depends on who you take it to from maintenance, so even today those service tickets are gold.

My guess is the Swap Shop bought it in 89 and has never had it back at the Florida DMV and they service the car themselves and the original entry is a typo and because there are no further entries, the typo remains to this day. There is no doubt the Swap Shop car is one of the 2 Ferrari NA delivered to NBC for Miami Vice.

Bonhams is selling a Magnum PI Ferrari on Thursday here https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23945/lot/95/ An expert from their offering,  “After retiring from show business, it is believed that Ferrari North America took possession of the Ferrari and both repainted and serviced it, before the car was sold to its first owner…” . Seems eerily similar to a couple of the docs for this car. A fax back to Ferrari NA getting the car saleable condition.

Another excerpt, “Accompanying the vehicle is a wonderful history file which documents the car's history, contains a letter from Ferrari North America certifying that this car was actually driven by Tom Selleck in the 1984-1985 shooting season of Magnum P.I., the warranty book, and service receipts dating back to 1986.” The 2nd owner based on a title search, moved the car to Minnesota in 1994.

I talked to Bonhams last night about the Magnum car, which I think will surpass the $250K high end, but alas it won’t be me. I was concerned why a Ferrari auctioned in 85 would have a letter from Ferrari NA that it was show driven and the TR sold in 89 would not. His opinion is that there very well may be a letter, but if the car was acquired via a title loan gone bad, the original owner may be butt hurt and is unwilling to show or part with provenance that drives the cars price up. I think it's a believable theory.

The Magnum Ferrari, doesn’t have a title noting CBS as the 1st owner. Which could explain when there is no NBC title on this 86 TR.

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Mvice8489

What day and time does the Miami Vice car go on auction?

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king77
38 minutes ago, Mvice8489 said:

What day and time does the Miami Vice car go on auction?

Saturday, I would guess around 4-6PM. Make sure you DVR Discovery from 1PM to 6PM on Saturday and 6PM to 10PM on Velocity.

Hopefully it doesn't fall into the channel break.

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Dadrian
1 hour ago, king77 said:

Make sure you DVR Discovery from 1PM to 6PM on Saturday and 6PM to 10PM on Velocity.

:done:

Thanks!

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