Switek and Zito responsible for Gina's attempted murder?

[mirrorimageegamirorrim]

I'm a little late to the dance here and this is probably not news to anybody but remember the scene In "Give a Little, Take a Little" where Cinco approaches Ramirez at his home to tell him about a van that has been discovered with surveillance equipment?  I don't know why it never occurred to me before, but this could have been the bug van.  Since this information is what led Ramirez to suspect Gina was an informant, in could have been a bit of carelessness on the part of Stan and Larry that nearly got Gina killed.  I was going to include responsibility in her rape as well but I changed my mind since he was probably going to do that anyway.        

Edited June 15, 2017 by mirrorimageegamirorrim

[Dadrian]

Do they ever show (or allude to) the bug van being on surveillance there? I can't remember. I rarely watch this episode because the thought of what happens to Gina is just too disgusting. 

[mirrorimageegamirorrim]

2 hours ago, Dadrian said:

Do they ever show (or allude to) the bug van being on surveillance there? I can't remember. I rarely watch this episode because the thought of what happens to Gina is just too disgusting. 

No allusion to the bug van.  Cinco just says that a van has been spotted with surveillance equipment, and though he doesn't say it, it's clear he suspects Ramirez is the target.  It's possible that the van is that of the Vice gang since the premise of the episode is Miami Vice vs Lupo Ramirez.  We're never given any indication in the episode that other agencies have him in their sights at this time.  Plus, we have a well-documented history and Swi and Zito screwing up in other episodes.  On the other hand, the fact that every time we see Switek and Zito they are inside the club would suggest that the van was not theirs.  So, it could be a coincidence, but maybe it isn't.  I just had an AH-HA moment yesterday and realized that it was a possibility that Larry and Zito's actions led to the attempt on Gina's life.  It's fun to think about, anyway.  And either way, Gina still almost got killed through no fault of her own or any mistake she made, which is quite scary if you put yourself in her place.  We've all watched these episodes so many times it's getting harder and harder to identify new, interesting things to discuss.  When I thought of this I thought it would provide some fodder for discussion.     

Edited June 15, 2017 by mirrorimageegamirorrim

[Dadrian]

12 minutes ago, mirrorimageegamirorrim said:

...I thought it would provide some fodder for discussion.     

...and that it has!!  

[mirrorimageegamirorrim]

35 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

...and that it has!!  

We'll see about that.  Most of my posts don't seem to attract much attention. 

[airtommy]

On 6/15/2017 at 10:11 AM, mirrorimageegamirorrim said:

 remember the scene In "Give a Little, Take a Little" where Cinco approaches Ramirez at his home to tell him about a van that has been discovered with surveillance equipment?  I don't know why it never occurred to me before, but this could have been the bug van.    

Great catch!  I never noticed that he mentions a "van".  This probably was a reference to Switek & Zito.  This ep was very early in the series when they were still characterizing S&Z as screwups (they did less of that later in the series).

Many eps contained deleted scenes.  They might have originally shown S&Z in the Bug Van somewhere but it just didn't make the final edit.

[jpaul1]

for me that scene of Gina being raped is hard to swallow. i have difficulties to understand how a female undercover cop could take so many risks. sending an unarmed woman in the wolf cave seems somehow unrealistic to me

[summer84]

It's ironic, when Castillo says "Don't get yourself comprimised" and Gina's respons, "they haven't invented a tricky situation, we can't handle." Than that's exactly what happens, she ends in that situation not being careful. Maybe they were not experienced enough yet and that could explain the reckless behavior. But I think, it seemed that Gina felt, she had everything under control and maybe felt hurt about her skills as a cop, if she couldn't show, that she could handle the task by herself. Maybe also afraid of being caught. Hence going to the party alone. Although it was a pretty naive action by Gina. It shows, that cops can make mistakes, but I agree seems unrealistic. She just wanted to handle it on her own, which I don't get. Why else, do they have a partner for to work as a team and support each other. She definitely should have had some backup. But she didn't feel the need for it, when Trudy offered to go with her, even though Trudy warned her about the risk going alone. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by summer84
misspelling

[vicegirl85]

4 hours ago, summer84 said:

But I think, it seemed that Gina felt, she had everything under control and maybe felt hurt about her skills as a cop, if she couldn't show, that she could handle the task by herself. Maybe also afraid of being caught. Hence going to the party alone. Although it was a pretty naive action by Gina. It shows, that cops can make mistakes, but I agree seems unrealistic. She just wanted to handle it on her own, which I don't get. Why else, do they have a partner for to work as a team and support each other. 

I agree, she thought she had everything under control and she thought she could outwit Ramirez.  Gina was shown to be very passionate about her work and she wanted to excel; she was ambitious to advance in her chosen career.  She seemed to feel this (getting herself accepted by Ramirez so he would trust her and reveal information that would let the vice squad bring him down) would prove she had the experience and skill to get more complex assignments than going undercover as a hooker.  To me, this is an attitude or belief that actually shows her lack of experience, as she doesn't recognize the risk she's taking.  Sometimes, the less experienced person takes extra risks because they "don't know what they don't know", therefore are unable to anticipate potential problems.

[RedDragon86]

Probability that it was the bug van is very high, I mean who else has surveillance on Ramirez at this point? Castillo would have mentioned if any other agencies were involved. 

Poor Gina.

Edited November 2, 2018 by RedDragon86

[RedDragon86]

On 9/19/2018 at 2:36 PM, jpm1 said:

for me that scene of Gina being raped is hard to swallow. i have difficulties to understand how a female undercover cop could take so many risks. sending an unarmed woman in the wolf cave seems somehow unrealistic to me

Yeah but she thought there was going to be a party with a lot of people, plenty of opportunities to sneak away. 

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by RedDragon86

[jpaul1]

yeah but we are talking of dangerous people there. that are probably involved into serial murder. only real story of a female undercover cop i ever heard, was once a girl set to become friend with a poisoner suspect. but the huy wasn't a serial killer, and he was married. and even with that the cop was super scared each time she was alone with the guy. for me that scene with Gina is missing a pistol hidden somewhere. and what if the party guys become mad, and turn the thing into a gang bang. Castillo would loose everything in seconds. for me there's a problem

[summer84]

Even if there had been a party, Ramirez had "plans" with her and doubt, that he would let her out of sight. All the Vice quad members have individual ways of handling a case and this was just reckless and naive behavior by Gina. Not saying, that Crockett and Tubbs didn't have such actions from time to time.  Her friend and partner Trudy had a different approach to the situation and warned Gina of the possible danger. I agree, that she should have brought a gun and hid it in her purse, then she maybe could have escaped and avoided the terrible outcome. 

[jpaul1]

yeah it's like the other episode of Gina kissing voluptuously the guy she's suspected to investigate on. totally unrealistic to me. the case of the corrupt lawyer that dies in the end in front of an executive jet. don't remember the episode name. where the lawyer steals a coke cargo to a narco, to pay his debt to another mafiosi

[summer84]

Yes that is exactly the episode I was referring to, it's Season 4 "Blood and Roses." Gina has a history of becoming involved in a way, where she doesn't take any precautions. In such difficult cases, I would think, that they should consult with the lieutenant. I don't know, if it's entirely unrealistic for a undercover cop, who plays a certain role and in order to bring down a criminal not to cross their personal limits without ruining the entire investigation, if it's a big operation?

Edited November 2, 2018 by summer84

[jpaul1]

i forgot she does it also in Blood & roses too. actually i was talking of Fruit of the poison tree. you mean she could do it like a porn movie a bit, without feelings. the thing it's that if you do this you reward the bad guy you are supposed to put in jail, and track down. there's a bit of contradictory there to me

Edited November 3, 2018 by jpm1

[RedDragon86]

On 11/2/2018 at 9:16 PM, summer84 said:

Even if there had been a party, Ramirez had "plans" with her and doubt, that he would let her out of sight. All the Vice quad members have individual ways of handling a case and this was just reckless and naive behavior by Gina. Not saying, that Crockett and Tubbs didn't have such actions from time to time.  Her friend and partner Trudy had a different approach to the situation and warned Gina of the possible danger. I agree, that she should have brought a gun and hid it in her purse, then she maybe could have escaped and avoided the terrible outcome. 

Yeah maybe we shouldn't put it down as unrealistic, instead bad judgment from the character? I mean cops aren't perfect. 

Edited November 5, 2018 by RedDragon86

[jpaul1]

cops aren't perfect, but they are professional. i mean it's the core of their job. going into the wolf den at night, alone, unarmed, without any mic looks totally wreckless to me, thus unrealistic. but well, it's my point of view. btw there's a good episode about this, Hell hath no fury. where at the episode end, Castillo takes all the detectives, and says if you can't act as pofesionnals in the future, i want your resignation on my desk before the end of the day

Edited November 17, 2018 by jpm1

[summer84]

My initial thought's were careless behavior, that she had everything under control and possibly their first time undertaking such a task, hence being inexperienced. Even if, that was the case, I guess they would still have to follow some procedures and strategy layed out from the Lt. Trudy said, that Gina couldn't go without backup. In such a situation, Trudy probably should have talked with the Lt. about her concerns. In the episode "Hell Hath No Fury," Trudy says to Tubbs and Gina: "I've seen you guys go just as far dozen of times." To which Tubbs replies: yeah, but we always have someone to pulls us back." As professionals, especially Gina's situation, I guess it shouldn't have happened. She could have at least brought some protection hidden. There was definitely missing some backup. Maybe this was just created to make an interesting story. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by summer84

[shallowdraft]

The question that I have about this episode is- If Gina shot Ramirez at the end of the episode, what happened to her ? Or did she miss ? It seems untypical for the series for one of the team to get totally away with a cold-blooded murder, despite her reasons. I am new here, but am I missing something ?

[Robbie C.]

It wasn't at all unusual for Vice to end episodes this way. It also wasn't unusual for Vice to simply forget about one episode ending and move on to the next as if nothing happened. Crockett got away with killing Hackman, and Tubbs manages to shoot up an entire island (The Afternoon Plane) without much being said at the end of the day. Personally I think this was a sloppy episode in many ways.

[vicegirl85]

There would surely have been a suspension and internal investigation in real life, but that would be boring (presumably!) so nothing like that was ever shown on the show.

I don't think you're missing anything, but the powers-that-be on the show (writers, producers, etc.) didn't choose to show any consequences.  I think quite often things like this were just left hanging.  Sloppy in my opinion and a missed opportunity for some effective stories, but not what the goal was at the time. 

[shallowdraft]

Thank you for your swift replies. I am currently watching Season One again (I just purchased the complete series on the Mill Creek discs.

I love this site !

 

Edited July 14, 2019 by shallowdraft
stupid auto-correct/user error

[Dadrian]

54 minutes ago, shallowdraft said:

Thank you for your swift replies. I am currently watching Season One again (I just purchased the complete series on the Mill Creek discs.

I love this site !

 

Welcome. Please consider me as your friend for all things Miami Vice! 

[Glades]

Actually there is one episode where they show what happens after a shooting. In "Dutch Oven"  Trudy shoot a bad guy in an alley. After this Internal Affairs did an investigation. Probably this was what usually happened after such incidences.
But you are right. Most time it is not shown.

And I was surprised they did it in "Dutch Oven", because the shooting in this episode was quite usual for MV. I think they showed as as an example, what usually happened, but decided not to do this every time, because is always just the same.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Glades