Cues in "Honor among thieves?"


Den Taylor

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I just watch this episode for the second time and the cues struck me as odd. I don't think that they are by Jan Hammer?
It sounds somewhat like him but neither melody- nor soundwise is it truly Jan. You can tell esepcially by the guitar sound - because there is no Rockman on it!

There are two main cues - the first one is kinda creepy and right at the beginning, then at 4:00, then 9:24 and a few more times later in the show. I guess you can call it Delgado's theme.

The other one is more upbeat and features the guitar - it plays at 25:49 and 32:34 (at the funfair).

Is it possible that these cues were entirely made by John Petersen only? Or did Jan really try such different things together with John? I'm sorry but it just doesn't sound like Jan....I mean it's not bad but it's lacking "that sound". And guitar without a Rockman? Ugh, gimme a break. (Sure, that worked for Season 5 and Tim Truman but that was a whole new different show anyway in a sense)

Edited by Den Taylor
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And as an aside - how stupid is that ending? I mean he lands right on Palmo? Ok, maybe not too unrealistic but that it even kills him?? How is that even possible? I mean Delgado is a lightweight....or maybe Palmo was just unconscious?

Edited by Den Taylor
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If I understand correctly, the episodes in season 4 that Jan scored are just Jan alone on those episodes, and the same for Petersen. They just put both of their names on every episode for some reason—maybe so that the credits couldn’t be just completely wrong. 

Even though they were using a couple of the same synths, you’re right, Den: it’s quite obvious which episodes are Petersen (Honor, Baseballs, Rising Sun, Rock and a Hard Place, Badge of Dishonor, to name a few—anything with real guitar leads/patterns). Also, John was a little heavier on the D50 than Jan, I think. 

All the rest have very well placed repeats by Jan himself, except for Death and the Lady, where Jan brings back that mysterious DX7 bell sound from Little Miss Dangerous, and makes one of my favorite scores of the entire series. I can’t think of another completely all-new material episode Jan did in season 4 right off hand. Anyone?

edit:

Both Hammer and Petersen are featured on Like a Hurricane, so there may be others. 

Edited by Dadrian
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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm thinking that Indian Wars could be Jan's. It has a lot of the classic elements, like that dark Moog sound and the flute (although I don't think it's the one from the fairlight)....it sounds a bit like The golden Triangle. Pretty cool stuff!

 



I didn't even know that Jan used the D50!? I don't think it was used before Season 4 though? And that was - like you wrote Dadrian - mostly Petersen's work.

Edited by Den Taylor
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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 5 months later...

"Honor Among Thieves?" is such a perplexing episode... The first three-quarters of it are so good - dark, atmospheric, and featuring some really memorable, cinematic music for Delgado - but then the finale is just a complete and utter mess, up there with the absolute worst crap season 4 dished out. It feels like someone who knew what they were doing wrote the first two acts, but then they got called away on business so they had someone from the cleaning staff stick a ridiculous ending on it.

As for the music in question - yeah, it's Petersen. I'd always assumed he handled most of the work on the episodes where he's credited, while the Hammer stuff in those eps was largely recycled, but it's been so long since I saw season 4 I wouldn't like to put money on that. I really like Petersen's work in this one. As I said, it has a really cinematic feel, with a memorable theme.

I'm sure a CD of Petersen's work is in the pipeline, right behind the Tim Truman soundtrack release :p

On 10/12/2017 at 2:35 AM, Dadrian said:

I can’t think of another completely all-new material episode Jan did in season 4 right off hand. Anyone?

Didn't Jan come back to exclusively score the final two episodes, at the studio's request?

Edited by Leigh Burne
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I’m assuming you mean the last 2 episodes of season 4. I never heard about a special request for the last 2 episodes. Perhaps it’s true. I do know all of the S4 finale is Jan Hammer only. 

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4 hours ago, Dadrian said:

I’m assuming you mean the last 2 episodes of season 4. I never heard about a special request for the last 2 episodes. Perhaps it’s true. I do know all of the S4 finale is Jan Hammer only. 

I did, sorry.

I can't remember where I read it, but the gist was Petersen wasn't involved in them because the studio wanted the important final two episodes of the season to go out on a classic Jan Hammer note (pun intended).

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2 hours ago, Leigh Burne said:

I did, sorry.

I can't remember where I read it, but the gist was Petersen wasn't involved in them because the studio wanted the important final two episodes of the season to go out on a classic Jan Hammer note (pun intended).

Jan Hammer’s cues were very good at the beginning of Season 4 “Contempt of Court”, “Death and the Lady”, “Child’s Play” - a little more recycled stuff in “Amen..” and “God’s Work” but some good work. This was all Jan Hammer until “Missing Hours” when Petersen came in. 

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19 hours ago, Leigh Burne said:

"Honor Among Thieves?" is such a perplexing episode... The first three-quarters of it are so good - dark, atmospheric, and featuring some really memorable, cinematic music for Delgado - but then the finale is just a complete and utter mess, up there with the absolute worst crap season 4 dished out. It feels like someone who knew what they were doing wrote the first two acts, but then they got called away on business so they had someone from the cleaning staff stick a ridiculous ending on it.

As for the music in question - yeah, it's Petersen. I'd always assumed he handled most of the work on the episodes where he's credited, while the Hammer stuff in those eps was largely recycled, but it's been so long since I saw season 4 I wouldn't like to put money on that. I really like Petersen's work in this one. As I said, it has a really cinematic feel, with a memorable theme.

I'm sure a CD of Petersen's work is in the pipeline, right behind the Tim Truman soundtrack release :p

Didn't Jan come back to exclusively score the final two episodes, at the studio's request?

I didn’t care at all for “Honor About Thieves” just my opinion. 

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I've said it before and I'll say it again. I always thought that John Petersen was a perfect replacement for Jan. He was able to somewhat copy Jan's style, to the point that you sometimes couldn't tell if it was John or Jan.  (Hence this topic) Much better than Tim Truman's style which as Den Taylor said, gave the show a totally different feel. Tim's music, for me anyway, made the show feel like any other generic sound track. Jan's cues were truly unique and defined the show.  It's often been said that Jan's music was like another character on the show.

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On 5/25/2018 at 12:26 PM, Ferrariman said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I always thought that John Petersen was a perfect replacement for Jan. He was able to somewhat copy Jan's style, to the point that you sometimes couldn't tell if it was John or Jan.  (Hence this topic) Much better than Tim Truman's style which as Den Taylor said, gave the show a totally different feel. Tim's music, for me anyway, made the show feel like any other generic sound track. Jan's cues were truly unique and defined the show.  It's often been said that Jan's music was like another character on the show.

Great post Lou - JHs cues were so closely identified with the show. His cues are timeless and part of Miami Vice history.

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Am 25.5.2018 um 13:26 schrieb Ferrariman:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I always thought that John Petersen was a perfect replacement for Jan. He was able to somewhat copy Jan's style, to the point that you sometimes couldn't tell if it was John or Jan.  (Hence this topic) Much better than Tim Truman's style which as Den Taylor said, gave the show a totally different feel. Tim's music, for me anyway, made the show feel like any other generic sound track. Jan's cues were truly unique and defined the show.  It's often been said that Jan's music was like another character on the show.

Jan said that he gave his material (samples, cues, patterns...) to John to achieve exactly that- a perfect copy. Sound-wise there are only few eps - Baseballs of Death teaser, Indian Wars- where there is a distinctive difference in instrumentation and arrangement between the two with a clear "Petersen" touch to it. 

Truman is s different story- that is like comparing Mozart and Beethoven. He certainly was a better fit to the final season tone. Also important: Tim did not play the guitars in his soundtrack which were quite dominant in later episodes but Michael Thompson did.

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I never knew that was Michael Thompson. Wow. 

I’ll add that Petersen said his work on “Rising Sun of Death” was his personal favorite from his contributions to S4. 

Edited by Dadrian
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I agree with Tom’s post - Tim Truman fitted the last season well. The rockier guitar soundtrack lended itself well to the fifth season - our hero’s were burnt out and struggling to keep on top of things. Crockett in particular.  The show had gone full circle, the episodes were edgier and darker and the Truman tracks seemed to compliment this.

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On 5/27/2018 at 7:08 PM, Tom said:

Truman is s different story- that is like comparing Mozart and Beethoven. He certainly was a better fit to the final season tone. Also important: Tim did not play the guitars in his soundtrack which were quite dominant in later episodes but Michael Thompson did.

Yeah, I've always said that - whatever you actual opinion of Truman's work in comparison to Hammer's - it was a far better fit for the tone the show went for in its final season than Hammer would've been.

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I agree, but I also think Jan would have (or at least could have) adapted if he’d stayed in. Episodes like “Little Miss Dangerous” and “Death and the Lady” were both excellent scores that were relatively dark and gritty. 

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vor 30 Minuten schrieb Dadrian:

I agree, but I also think Jan would have (or at least could have) adapted if he’d stayed in. Episodes like “Little Miss Dangerous” and “Death and the Lady” were both excellent scores that were relatively dark and gritty. 

Can you really imagine Crockett in gilet or leather jacket and worn out jeans while Jan Hammer playing? I can't. 

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7 hours ago, Tom said:

Can you really imagine Crockett in gilet or leather jacket and worn out jeans while Jan Hammer playing? I can't. 

I can’t either. I would really love to hear how he would have responded musically. None of his previous cues would work, for sure! :) 

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