Episode #4 "Hit List"


Ferrariman

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1 hour ago, Bren10 said:

No, Sonny wouldn't have been happy with a regular job. I've gone into that elsewhere on here at length, mostly concerning his post-Freefall life. As for other women, Caroline isn't stupid so it would be implicit in what Sonny does for a living that he would be involved with other women for the sake of his undercover work. That is if she is fully informed about what his job actually is, which she seems to be. It would be an unreasonable and unrealistic expectation to expect Sonny to partake in every other "vice" while undercover except female liasons. That simply wouldn't work for his job. Regarding the marriage having hope, you have to remember if you were only watching the show for the first time back then you only had so much to go on up to Hit List and the show was leading you to believe that they could reconcile. Most of our character analysis here on this forum comes from hindsight after the show ended and everybody played out their arcs as well as multiple repeat viewings. We didn't have that in 84/85. A lot of other cops in other shows were horrible husbands but still managed to stay married, so why not Sonny? I think it's a testament to how good the writing was that they caused people to believe they had a chance for a moment.

I had hope for them, too, back in 84, 85. Maybe up until the end, it was my fondest, secret wish! Just fun to see how others felt and how they got to their conclusions. 

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by liasonsI think there are limits to what undercover cops can do, so I don't completely agree it was accepted or expected that a male, or female cop would compromise themselves for the sake of a bust. But to save your life, like Gina needed to do  in  Give a Little Take a Little, as Bren mentioned,  playing along might be the only option. 

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Caroline was also one of the early examples of the cliche of the cop wife who doesn't understand the pressures of the life and never seems to want to comprehend them. I'd be curious to see how that arc would have turned out if Yerkovich would have remained heavily involved, especially on the writing side (or at least overseeing the writing). I was always in the camp of never wanting them to get back together, in the interest of full disclosure. And I felt that way from my first viewing of the show.

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Honestly I would have liked to see Sonny and Caroline get back together, too.  I never thought it would happen because I thought she had moved past her disappointment and hurt over the failed marriage, certainly by the time she and Bob had become an item.  And I didn't think Sonny and Caroline wanted the same things from marriage.

I did think he and Gina could have had a future together, although there are problems that way as well, as Bren10 has previously discussed very well.  Ultimately Sonny would have had to decide to leave undercover work if he was going to be married to a person instead of the job (IMO).  As much as I wanted that to happen (for he and Gina to get together) I don't know that the two of them could have been successful in the long term.

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1 hour ago, vicegirl85 said:

We never saw any evidence that he actually cheated on Caroline, but I wouldn't be surprised if that had happened--even if "accidentally"--while he was undercover.  If she had found out about that, it could be the final straw.

I think he was sorry that the marriage broke down and sorry for the pain he put Caroline through, but he wasn't willing/able to make the changes that might have kept her with him.

And I don't think Sonny would have been satisfied with a "normal" 9-5 job.  He did like the adrenaline flow of undercover work. 

I'd say we get enough in the first few episodes to at least suspect that he'd been with Gina prior to the pilot. So yeah, he'd cheated at least once.

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2 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Caroline was also one of the early examples of the cliche of the cop wife who doesn't understand the pressures of the life and never seems to want to comprehend them. I'd be curious to see how that arc would have turned out if Yerkovich would have remained heavily involved, especially on the writing side (or at least overseeing the writing). I was always in the camp of never wanting them to get back together, in the interest of full disclosure. And I felt that way from my first viewing of the show.

I wish they had explored that relationship a bit more.  Caroline did want things Sonny could not give her--his time, his presence.  Whether that was totally his choice or under his control might be moot.  But certainly he was very consumed by his work, very dedicated and good at his job.  I just don't think he was made to be a husband. 

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1 minute ago, Robbie C. said:

I'd say we get enough in the first few episodes to at least suspect that he'd been with Gina prior to the pilot. So yeah, he'd cheated at least once.

Maybe so.  But it was my impression he'd been trying to get together with Gina since he and Caroline had been separated, but she had been resisting him.

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24 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

The point I'm making though is that it may be necessary for Sonny to engage in a sexual relationship to complete a case. Imagine him in a scenario close to Gina's in Give a Little. Would that be cheating? Or a part of the job?

Yes, that was one of the episodes I was thinking about, but Gina was forced into having sex-he would probably have killed her if she didn't. And In Fruit of the Poisonous Tree, it was obvious that she slept with that horror, Enrique. Not sure she could have gotten out of that without him getting violent with her, so there's that risk again. 

I know there are "rules" against officers having sex with marks, like in prostitution busts. There was a case in England concerning an undercover cop that created quite a stir and resulted in strict rules being instituted over there to prevent it from happening again. 

 

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Just now, vicegirl85 said:

I wish they had explored that relationship a bit more.  Caroline did want things Sonny could not give her--his time, his presence.  Whether that was totally his choice or under his control might be moot.  But certainly he was very consumed by his work, very dedicated and good at his job.  I just don't think he was made to be a husband. 

I agree. That he didn't get married until he left the military says a great deal about that IMO. It also doesn't work for the very Mann-like meditation about undercover work and its risks, which is what Sonny turned into after Season 1 (if not before). They periodically tried to pull back from that, but it never really worked. Crockett is at his best when he's least like a character and more like a metaphor, at least on the screen.

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9 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Caroline was also one of the early examples of the cliche of the cop wife who doesn't understand the pressures of the life and never seems to want to comprehend them. I'd be curious to see how that arc would have turned out if Yerkovich would have remained heavily involved, especially on the writing side (or at least overseeing the writing). I was always in the camp of never wanting them to get back together, in the interest of full disclosure. And I felt that way from my first viewing of the show.

Yes, she was sweet, but she definitely "cramped his style'! 

Oh, boy. I hope I don't get clobbered for that remark!

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8 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

I'd say we get enough in the first few episodes to at least suspect that he'd been with Gina prior to the pilot. So yeah, he'd cheated at least once.

Well, the divorce from Caroline wasn't final, so I guess that is true. :(

 

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That depends on how long he'd been out of the house prior to the pilot, doesn't it? He wasn't actually living at home in the pilot. And Gina acts like the pilot was the first time they'd slept together for real or else I'd think she wouldn'tve been so upset the next day. She also says her mother told her not to get involved with men on the rebound, as if they weren't actually "involved" before this. I could be misinterpreting somewhat.

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7 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

I wish they had explored that relationship a bit more.  Caroline did want things Sonny could not give her--his time, his presence.  Whether that was totally his choice or under his control might be moot.  But certainly he was very consumed by his work, very dedicated and good at his job.  I just don't think he was made to be a husband. 

He definitely was not. How he thought it would work with Theresa, or Caitlin was pretty far fetched, too! 

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2 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

That depends on how long he'd been out of the house prior to the pilot, doesn't it? He wasn't actually living at home in the pilot. And Gina acts like the pilot was the first time they'd slept together for real or else I'd think she wouldn'tve been so upset the next day. She also says her mother told her not to get involved with men on the rebound, as if they weren't actually "involved" before this. I could be misinterpreting somewhat.

The actual pilot script makes it clear they hadn't been involved within the last 3-4 weeks, but it leaves things before that very up in the air. I think they decided to make it a bit more ambiguous in the actual filming just because. There's some good stuff in that script that never made it to the screen.

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6 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

Yes, she was sweet, but she definitely "cramped his style'! 

Oh, boy. I hope I don't get clobbered for that remark!

No reason to get clobbered. They never worked her into the plot the same way they did Vic's wife on "The Shield" or Raylan's ex-wife in "Justified." They way they developed Caroline she just wouldn't work without taking up screen time they didn't have to give.

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7 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

Yes, that was one of the episodes I was thinking about, but Gina was forced into having sex-he would probably have killed her if she didn't. And In Fruit of the Poisonous Tree, it was obvious that she slept with that horror, Enrique. Not sure she could have gotten out of that without him getting violent with her, so there's that risk again. 

I know there are "rules" against officers having sex with marks, like in prostitution busts. There was a case in England concerning an undercover cop that created quite a stir and resulted in strict rules being instituted over there to prevent it from happening again. 

 

I understand but I mean scenarios similar to, not exactly like Give a Little. It would be different by nature anyway with Crockett being a man (a whole different can of worms I don't want to get into). Look at Tubbs for instance. He's had all kinds of these issues too, only he was never married. But to complete cases he's had to form fake relationships, sleep around etc. Why should Crockett have to be any different? Yes there are guidelines but there are exceptions as well in deep cover situations where the stakes are so high. People may hate this example, but look at Crockett in MV2006. They wouldn't have gotten anywhere in that case if he didn't get with Isabella.

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Back to the idea of Lou...I never thought he would have worked for the direction Vice was going. The shouting boss cop was another cliche from older shows, and to chart a new course you needed someone dramatically different yet still visually tied to that past. Castillo fit that role to perfection. Plus having such a character opened up new plot opportunities. Who would have believed Lou had ties to the CIA?

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1 hour ago, Bren10 said:

That depends on how long he'd been out of the house prior to the pilot, doesn't it? He wasn't actually living at home in the pilot. And Gina acts like the pilot was the first time they'd slept together for real or else I'd think she wouldn'tve been so upset the next day. She also says her mother told her not to get involved with men on the rebound, as if they weren't actually "involved" before this. I could be misinterpreting somewhat.

Yes, that was the way I took it as well.  During the pilot Sonny was separated but the divorce wasn't final, and by Gina's own statement she had been avoiding getting "involved" with Sonny that way.

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1 hour ago, Bren10 said:

I understand but I mean scenarios similar to, not exactly like Give a Little. It would be different by nature anyway with Crockett being a man (a whole different can of worms I don't want to get into). Look at Tubbs for instance. He's had all kinds of these issues too, only he was never married. But to complete cases he's had to form fake relationships, sleep around etc. Why should Crockett have to be any different? Yes there are guidelines but there are exceptions as well in deep cover situations where the stakes are so high. People may hate this example, but look at Crockett in MV2006. They wouldn't have gotten anywhere in that case if he didn't get with Isabella.

Yes, definitely different for the man. And I agree, when the stakes are high, I'm sure decisions have to be made in this regard. With that in mind, I just can't imagine any undercover cop having a meaningful relationship if the spouse has to wonder if their significant-other slept around. 

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Rock Star wives cope with this issue all the time. Mick Jagger's wife Jerry Hall used to tell him to do what he wanted on the road, just don't bring anybody home with him and don't have anybody calling the house. It's just a concession one has to make if they're going to be the spouse of a certain type of person.

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4 minutes ago, mjcmmv said:

Yes, definitely different for the man. And I agree, when the stakes are high, I'm sure decisions have to be made in this regard. With that in mind, I just can't imagine any undercover cop having a meaningful relationship if the spouse has to wonder if their significant-other slept around. 

UC work takes place at wide variety of levels and an equally wide range of objectives. Usually they're avoiding sleeping with people because defense attorneys can use it to taint testimony, but since quite a bit of UC is in essence intel-gathering I don't think it's as common a dilemma as TV and the movies would have us believe.

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2 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

Rock Star wives cope with this issue all the time. Mick Jagger's wife Jerry Hall used to tell him to do what he wanted on the road, just don't bring anybody home with him and don't have anybody calling the house. It's just a concession one has to make if they're going to be the spouse of a certain type of person.

Maybe so, but obviously Caroline didn't want to be the spouse of a certain type of person.

There are things like secondary gains when the significant other is a rock star, but maybe not so much when the S.O. is a cop making $400/week.  Filling the gaps of adult companionship, sex, and caring for a child is difficult when there's one person in the marriage who is never there.

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2 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

Maybe so, but obviously Caroline didn't want to be the spouse of a certain type of person.

There are things like secondary gains when the significant other is a rock star, but maybe not so much when the S.O. is a cop making $400/week.  Filling the gaps of adult companionship, sex, and caring for a child is difficult when there's one person in the marriage who is never there.

I think Caroline was there to show that, and once they'd shown it as one of the perils they simply shuffled her off-set. May sound cynical, but if my theory about Crockett being an extended meditation or metaphor is at least in part true it makes sense. She and Billy were props to start that narrative moving, and Artie Rollins showed that having a devoted wife didn't help, either. If you get right down to it, the only successful relationship in Vice was Stan and Larry, and they killed one of them off.

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18 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

UC work takes place at wide variety of levels and an equally wide range of objectives. Usually they're avoiding sleeping with people because defense attorneys can use it to taint testimony, but since quite a bit of UC is in essence intel-gathering I don't think it's as common a dilemma as TV and the movies would have us believe.

Thanks! I meant to add that was very helpful, Robbie. I imagine a defense good lawyer would have a field day swaying a jury with information that colored the arresting officer in this light.  

Edited by mjcmmv
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12 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

Rock Star wives cope with this issue all the time. Mick Jagger's wife Jerry Hall used to tell him to do what he wanted on the road, just don't bring anybody home with him and don't have anybody calling the house. It's just a concession one has to make if they're going to be the spouse of a certain type of person.

An understanding spouse. That's a strong person. And very self assured. 

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