Episode #41 "Payback"


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3 hours ago, Jack Gretsky said:

This is good "anguished Sonny" story that moves fast, has good location work, and keeps one enthralled - not something to be said for every Season 2 episode.  

Every episode of Season 2 is enthralling and sizzles & crackles with pure MV—this one definitely included! ;) Awesome & superb episode! :thumbsup: :clap: 

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15 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Every episode of Season 2 is enthralling and sizzles & crackles with pure MV—this one definitely included! ;) Awesome & superb episode! :thumbsup: :clap: 

Weelllll...we'll have to have a slight, very slight, difference of opinion on that score. For me, Season 1 bats pretty much a thousand in terms of excellent episodes.  Season 2 is great, my second favorite season (the others I would rank 3, 5, 4), but has a few lulls (French Twist, The Fix, One Way Ticket, Tale of the Goat, etc.) - good episodes, but not sizzling and crackling ones.  But that's what keeps Vice fandom interesting! :funky:

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3 minutes ago, Jack Gretsky said:

Weelllll...we'll have to have a slight, very slight, difference of opinion on that score. For me, Season 1 bats pretty much a thousand in terms of excellent episodes.  Season 2 is great, my second favorite season (the others I would rank 3, 5, 4), but has a few lulls (French Twist, The Fix, One Way Ticket, Tale of the Goat, etc.) - good episodes, but not sizzling and crackling ones.  But that's what keeps Vice fandom interesting! :funky:

All those episodes of Season 2 are awesome & superb to me, lol! Season 1 was an amazing start for the show & is my second favorite season...but it still had some proverbial wrinkles to iron out, with characterization and even some of the acting.

To me Season 2 is pure MV-gold & bats ten thousand with no bad or poor episodes, as well as mesmerizing colors & lighting! My ranking of the seasons is: 2, 1, 3, 4, 5. But, that’s just me! :funky:  It’s always fun & interesting to see & read what everyone thinks & how they like the show. :D 

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18 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

All those episodes of Season 2 are awesome & superb to me, lol! Season 1 was an amazing start for the show & is my second favorite season...but it still had some proverbial wrinkles to iron out, with characterization and even some of the acting.

To me Season 2 is pure MV-gold & bats ten thousand with no bad or poor episodes, as well as mesmerizing colors & lighting! My ranking of the seasons is: 2, 1, 3, 4, 5. But, that’s just me! :funky:  It’s always fun & interesting to see & read what everyone thinks & how they like the show. :D 

We are in definite agreement re the visually splendid colors and lighting.  There are many Vice scenes in which I want to dive into the setting.  (But, um, not the scenes with all the shooting going on!) :D

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7 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

All those episodes of Season 2 are awesome & superb to me, lol! Season 1 was an amazing start for the show & is my second favorite season...but it still had some proverbial wrinkles to iron out, with characterization and even some of the acting.

To me Season 2 is pure MV-gold & bats ten thousand with no bad or poor episodes, as well as mesmerizing colors & lighting! My ranking of the seasons is: 2, 1, 3, 4, 5. But, that’s just me! :funky:  It’s always fun & interesting to see & read what everyone thinks & how they like the show. :D 

"One Way Ticket" in my opinion is most certainly a top tier episode. 

 

Edited by RedDragon86
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3 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

"One Way Ticket" in my opinion is most certainly a top tier episode. 

 

I feel the same way about 'One Way Ticket'; everything works for me, including Sagot (glad he was captured and not killed, a Vice rarity), the classy menace of Faber, the torment and conflict of Laurence Thurmond, the inclusion of Jan Hammer, the way the story flows (in various set pieces, no less), and of course I can't forget about the former Mrs. Thurmond, who I think is just awesome:happy:.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Okay, I see that back in January that I'd write about this episode in more detail. Well, what am I waiting for, another January Man (I'll leave Kevin Kline to all that)?

At any rate, there's that iconic (at least I think so!) of Crockett displaying his badge at the prison entry; love that moment.

Wow, for his one minute of screen time, Jesus Morato makes his presence felt, and of course Crockett does the "Noooo!" thing when somebody tries to kill themselves or someone else ('No Exit', 'The Fix', 'Killshot'), and I always find his efforts in those spots to be admirable.

Wow, Fuente's fact finder lady, she's something serious: when she asked for Crockett at the police station, her purposefulness gives me that "Terminator" vibe, like she's going to hunt down any Sonny Crockett she can find (at least she didn't leave the police station just to drive a vehicle through it a minute later).

I thought Crockett handled what Morato did in front of him rather well, and good instincts in feeling he was being watched (a lot of us get that sense when people are doing thing ABOUT you, but not in front of us).

More of Dan Hedaya, I always love to see him, and I feel his Reuben Reydolfo is an effective character. 

That Kevin Cates is awful smug for a guy with four busted marriages.

Fuente calls Burnett "a two-bit weasel", while Charlie Glide said he was "a two-bit rabbit". I think I'd rather be a rabbit and hop right to it. EDIT: Fuente called Burnett a two-bit player, I had my facts wrong there. Good, Burnett isn't a weasel anyway, as we later discover!

Good thing Fuente is a strong swimmer; he swims with the fishes, safely.

Earle Hodges was driving the wrong boat in the wrong river when talking like that in front of Castillo, and to question Castillo's rock-solid integrity to boot.

"Sonny, I'd like to talk to you...", and Crockett proceeds to deck Cates/Carlin (of course, he remains smug and unfazed; he must've been a heck of an undercover). Oh yeah, that's the stuff!\

Pretty complex & elaborate plan for Cates there; I imagine he knew that it could be risky and that he could take a hard fall. Cates was kind of a jerk, but to me he seemed rather intelligent, but he figured 3 million was worth the gamble, and since he was in a profession that was all danger and risk, worth a shot to go for it all.

Love the episode, 5/5 for me, and I normally enjoyed watching this and 'Yankee dollar' back-to-back (in fact, I feel the titles of the episodes can be swapped and fit either of them, although with Morato saying the phrase, "Payback!" the title her is definitely apt).

 

Edited by Eillio Martin Imbasciati
wrong statement, misspelling
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I watched Payback the other night. Like many others, I enjoyed the episode a lot, but also found it a bit confusing at first. Especially regarding the motivation of Maroto and Cates. With Crockett, on the other hand, everything actually seemed clear: he feels he's being chased and nothing is clear to him for a long time.
So, as a real detective, I started researching, got the script, read through the reviews in the forum.

This is my result:

To Maroto I came across the following review by @Christine:
My translation: "About Maroto's motivation, I can only think of the following: The man knew very well who he was stealing from and that these people are absolutely ruthless. Their contacts also reach into the jail and Maroto was certainly clear that they would get him also there. Just think of the "pecking order" in Walk Alone. So he put an end to his own life and ordered Crockett over to his place so he could get something out of it and the bad guys on the outside would think he told Crockett where to hide."

I would say Christine hit the mark. The script contains some passages, especially dialogue, that do not appear in the episode. When Crockett and Tubbs come to Fuente on his yacht, Fuente explains in the script not only that Maroto stole his money, but also that he had Maroto pressured repeatedly in jail to get his money back. He portrays Maroto as a tough warrior who could not be broken. So Maroto knew that he had lost the fight with Fuente (after all, he didn't have the money anymore and couldn't have given it back to Fuente) and would die anyway. And so he did the last thing he could do: arrange his death in such a way that it would be his revenge on Crockett.

So Maroto is clear and coherent.

And what about Cates?
No matter how I spin it, his actions don't seem likely to achieve the goal of making a nice life for himself with the 3 million.... Before Cates informed I.A., no one on the official side even knew about the 3 million, did they? And Cates would always have had the problem of having to conceal the origin of the money. Surely a suspect Crockett doesn't change that? After all, Cates could have stolen other drug money or taken a bribe or ...

So what the hell Cates was thinking? I put myself in his place, how he might felt when he stole the money from Maroto. A non-existent personal life, 4 failed marriages. Risking his life for the job and still not really accomplishing anything in the fight against the villains. I figure Cates felt victimized, robbed of his life by his job, by the system, by the villains. And then suddenly there seems to be an opportunity for compensatory justice: $3 million. But with that, Cates was a bad cop. And his pride in being a good cop was all Cates had left. Until then, anyway.

Cates was in an intractable, psychological conflict. He initially just carried on as if he had never stolen the money.

When Maroto committed suicide, things got back on track. Cates picked up the ball that Maroto, unbeknownst to him , had passed to him. Cates suddenly saw the chance to get out of his victim role. To decide by himself what happens, to play with everyone, to get even - with I.A., DEA, Fuente, Crockett.... All along, I never got the sense that Cates was coolly and rationally pursuing the plan to escape with the money and build a nice life for himself. Instead, Cates watched the progression of events with a mocking detachment and seemed to be having a good time, being the only one who knew what was going on. Only Crockett, he also admired, perhaps even envied. After all, Crockett is a good cop.

I think Cates started a kind of extended rampage with the call to I.A., in which he wanted to drag as many as possible down with him.

And so there's a suicide at the beginning and in some kind of suicide at end of the episode too. That would also fit well with Michael Mann's way of thinking. He loves such structures, parallels, contrasts. And if possible, interlaced.

But maybe the whole thing was a dream of Crockett's?

Crockett feels like he' s in the wrong movie, like he is in a nightmare. It also fits that large parts of the episode take place at night (dream) or on the water (unconsciousness). Also the narrative is very associative and is less clear and logical.

The characters could stand for parts of Crockett's personality. Fuente for the crime he fights, Tubbs for his caring part, Castillo for his clear awareness of which side, the good one, he is on, Maroto for the tough warrior Crockett is too. And Cates? For Crockett's fear of what he might become one day, against his will. Since he does have a lot in common with Cates, the dedication to his job, the failed marriage, the woundings, the repeated setbacks in fighting crime.

This episode is much appreciated, definitely and rightly so!

Edited by Glades
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3 minutes ago, Glades said:

I watched Payback the other night. Like many others, I enjoyed the episode a lot, but also found it a bit confusing at first. Especially regarding the motivation of Maroto and Cates. With Crockett, on the other hand, everything actually seemed clear: he feels he's being chased and nothing is clear to him for a long time.
So, as a real detective, I started researching, got the script, read through the reviews in the forum.

This is my result:

To Maroto I came across the following review by @Christine:
My translation: "About Maroto's motivation, I can only think of the following: The man knew very well who he was stealing from and that these people are absolutely ruthless. Their contacts also reach into the jail and Maroto was certainly clear that they would get him also there. Just think of the "pecking order" in Walk Alone. So he put an end to his own life and ordered Crockett over to his place so he could get something out of it and the bad guys on the outside would think he told Crockett where to hide."

I would say Christine hit the mark. The script contains some passages, especially dialogue, that do not appear in the episode. When Crockett and Tubbs come to Fuente on his yacht, Fuente explains in the script not only that Maroto stole his money, but also that he had Maroto pressured repeatedly in jail to get his money back. He portrays Maroto as a tough warrior who could not be broken. So Maroto knew that he had lost the fight with Fuente (after all, he didn't have the money anymore and couldn't have given it back to Fuente) and would die anyway. And so he did the last thing he could do: arrange his death in such a way that it would be his revenge on Crockett.

So Maroto is clear and coherent.

And what about Cates?
No matter how I spin it, his actions don't seem likely to achieve the goal of making a nice life for himself with the 3 million.... Before Cates informed I.A., no one on the official side even knew about the 3 million, did they? And Cates would always have had the problem of having to conceal the origin of the money. Surely a suspect Crockett doesn't change that? After all, Cates could have stolen other drug money or taken a bribe or ...

So what the hell Cates was thinking? I put myself in his place, how he might felt when he stole the money from Maroto. A non-existent personal life, 4 failed marriages. Risking his life for the job and still not really accomplishing anything in the fight against the villains. I figure Cates felt victimized, robbed of his life by his job, by the system, by the villains. And then suddenly there seems to be an opportunity for compensatory justice: $3 million. But with that, Cates was a bad cop. And his pride in being a good cop was all Cates had left. Until then, anyway.

Cates was in an intractable, psychological conflict. He initially just carried on as if he had never stolen the money.

When Maroto committed suicide, things got back on track. Cates picked up the ball that Maroto, unbeknownst to him , had passed to him. Cates suddenly saw the chance to get out of his victim role. To decide by himself what happens, to play with everyone, to get even - with I.A., DEA, Fuente, Crockett.... All along, I never got the sense that Cates was coolly and rationally pursuing the plan to escape with the money and build a nice life for himself. Instead, Cates watched the progression of events with a mocking detachment and seemed to be having a good time, being the only one who knew what was going on. Only Crockett, he also admired, perhaps even envied. After all, Crockett is a good cop.

I think Cates started a kind of extended rampage with the call to I.A., in which he wanted to drag as many as possible down with him.

And so there's a suicide at the beginning and in some kind at end of the episode too. That would also fit well with Michael Mann's way of thinking. He loves such structures, parallels, contrasts. And if possible, interlaced.

But maybe the whole thing was a dream of Crockett's?

Crockett feels like he' s in the wrong movie, like he is in a nightmare. It also fits that large parts of the episode take place at night (dream) or on the water (unconsciousness). Also the narrative is very associative and is less clear and logical.

The characters could stand for parts of Crockett's personality. Fuente for the crime he fights, Tubbs for his caring part, Castillo for his clear awareness of which side, the good one, he is on, Maroto for the tough warrior Crockett is too. And Cates? For Crockett's fear of what he might become one day, against his will. Since he does have a lot in common with Cates, the dedication to his job, the failed marriage, the woundings, the repeated setbacks in fighting crime.

This episode is much appreciated, definitely and rightly so!

I think this is Well-said, all of it, and I do feel that Crockett has concerns that he could go the way of Cates (just like he could relate to what Artie Rollins became).

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I agree with you concerning Artie Rollings.
I think Rollins and Cates are quite different though. Rollins started to love the life and adrenaline of a "villain" to much. I feel Cates was from the beginning much more exhausted, destroyed by his job.

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29 minutes ago, Glades said:

I agree with you concerning Artie Rollings.
I think Rollins and Cates are quite different though. Rollins started to love the life and adrenaline of a "villain" to much. I feel Cates was from the beginning much more exhausted, destroyed by his job.

Definitely: Rollins just sort of lost the plot there (truly "got high off the action", as Caroline stated to Sonny in the pilot), but Cates was just unfulfilled, burned out & looking to get something big out of his many years working undercover.

Edited by Eillio Martin Imbasciati
misspelling
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  • 1 year later...

The IA guy who insinuates Castillo is on the take: we don't see him coming out of the office.

I think Castillo whacked him.

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  • 3 months later...

This remains in my top 5 for Season 2.  I don't think anyone has mentioned Roberto Duran's cartoonish "heh heh heh"s in the teaser.  That always cracks me up!

So the non-sweating guy in the waiting room.  I assumed he was an IA agent seeing how Sonny reacts under stress.  Others in these comments wonder if he was planted by Fuentes or Cates.  What do others think? 

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2 hours ago, Jack Gretsky said:

This remains in my top 5 for Season 2.  I don't think anyone has mentioned Roberto Duran's cartoonish "heh heh heh"s in the teaser.  That always cracks me up!

So the non-sweating guy in the waiting room.  I assumed he was an IA agent seeing how Sonny reacts under stress.  Others in these comments wonder if he was planted by Fuentes or Cates.  What do others think? 

Love this episode, too…superb all the way around! :thumbsup: As for the “weirdo” non-sweating guy in the IA waiting room…definitely an IA ‘stooge’ purposely put out there to try and psychologically mess with Crockett. Fuentes wouldn’t have had anything to do with IA, although I suppose Cates could have had something to do with it.
 

But, I pretty much get, or view it as, IA had been made suspicious of Crockett (by Cates, trying to cast blame onto someone else), and they sent one of their own ‘goobers’ out to see how Crockett would react and/or what he might say.

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On 9/18/2021 at 2:46 PM, Glades said:

I watched Payback the other night. Like many others, I enjoyed the episode a lot, but also found it a bit confusing at first. Especially regarding the motivation of Maroto and Cates. With Crockett, on the other hand, everything actually seemed clear: he feels he's being chased and nothing is clear to him for a long time.
So, as a real detective, I started researching, got the script, read through the reviews in the forum.

This is my result:

To Maroto I came across the following review by @Christine:
My translation: "About Maroto's motivation, I can only think of the following: The man knew very well who he was stealing from and that these people are absolutely ruthless. Their contacts also reach into the jail and Maroto was certainly clear that they would get him also there. Just think of the "pecking order" in Walk Alone. So he put an end to his own life and ordered Crockett over to his place so he could get something out of it and the bad guys on the outside would think he told Crockett where to hide."

I would say Christine hit the mark. The script contains some passages, especially dialogue, that do not appear in the episode. When Crockett and Tubbs come to Fuente on his yacht, Fuente explains in the script not only that Maroto stole his money, but also that he had Maroto pressured repeatedly in jail to get his money back. He portrays Maroto as a tough warrior who could not be broken. So Maroto knew that he had lost the fight with Fuente (after all, he didn't have the money anymore and couldn't have given it back to Fuente) and would die anyway. And so he did the last thing he could do: arrange his death in such a way that it would be his revenge on Crockett.

So Maroto is clear and coherent.

And what about Cates?
No matter how I spin it, his actions don't seem likely to achieve the goal of making a nice life for himself with the 3 million.... Before Cates informed I.A., no one on the official side even knew about the 3 million, did they? And Cates would always have had the problem of having to conceal the origin of the money. Surely a suspect Crockett doesn't change that? After all, Cates could have stolen other drug money or taken a bribe or ...

So what the hell Cates was thinking? I put myself in his place, how he might felt when he stole the money from Maroto. A non-existent personal life, 4 failed marriages. Risking his life for the job and still not really accomplishing anything in the fight against the villains. I figure Cates felt victimized, robbed of his life by his job, by the system, by the villains. And then suddenly there seems to be an opportunity for compensatory justice: $3 million. But with that, Cates was a bad cop. And his pride in being a good cop was all Cates had left. Until then, anyway.

Cates was in an intractable, psychological conflict. He initially just carried on as if he had never stolen the money.

When Maroto committed suicide, things got back on track. Cates picked up the ball that Maroto, unbeknownst to him , had passed to him. Cates suddenly saw the chance to get out of his victim role. To decide by himself what happens, to play with everyone, to get even - with I.A., DEA, Fuente, Crockett.... All along, I never got the sense that Cates was coolly and rationally pursuing the plan to escape with the money and build a nice life for himself. Instead, Cates watched the progression of events with a mocking detachment and seemed to be having a good time, being the only one who knew what was going on. Only Crockett, he also admired, perhaps even envied. After all, Crockett is a good cop.

I think Cates started a kind of extended rampage with the call to I.A., in which he wanted to drag as many as possible down with him.

And so there's a suicide at the beginning and in some kind of suicide at end of the episode too. That would also fit well with Michael Mann's way of thinking. He loves such structures, parallels, contrasts. And if possible, interlaced.

But maybe the whole thing was a dream of Crockett's?

Crockett feels like he' s in the wrong movie, like he is in a nightmare. It also fits that large parts of the episode take place at night (dream) or on the water (unconsciousness). Also the narrative is very associative and is less clear and logical.

The characters could stand for parts of Crockett's personality. Fuente for the crime he fights, Tubbs for his caring part, Castillo for his clear awareness of which side, the good one, he is on, Maroto for the tough warrior Crockett is too. And Cates? For Crockett's fear of what he might become one day, against his will. Since he does have a lot in common with Cates, the dedication to his job, the failed marriage, the woundings, the repeated setbacks in fighting crime.

This episode is much appreciated, definitely and rightly so!

I'll have to reanalyze the plot once I get to this episode again. But I'm relieved to hear I'm not the only one that gets confused by a lot of the episodes' plots (I know, MTV cops yada yada). Doesn't take too much away from the show for me, thought I may have just been a dimwit.

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  • 2 months later...

Can someone please help me understand the plan Cates up with for them to buy the drugs from Zappa (forgotten his characters name sorry).  At this point Zappa knows Crockett is Vice.  He wants his 3 million back and the only way he’ll get it is if he trades it with Vice for drugs.  I just don’t understand how that part of the plot makes sense on any level.   
That coupled with Cates own plans making no sense make for a very confusing nonsensical episode.

I still love it and until you figure out none of it really makes any logical sense it feels like one of the most densely scripted and interesting plot of the series.

 

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On 12/3/2023 at 6:41 AM, Matt Twist said:

Can someone please help me understand the plan Cates up with for them to buy the drugs from Zappa (forgotten his characters name sorry).  At this point Zappa knows Crockett is Vice.  He wants his 3 million back and the only way he’ll get it is if he trades it with Vice for drugs.  I just don’t understand how that part of the plot makes sense on any level.   
That coupled with Cates own plans making no sense make for a very confusing nonsensical episode.

I still love it and until you figure out none of it really makes any logical sense it feels like one of the most densely scripted and interesting plot of the series.

 

If I remember right, Zappa knew Crockett was Vice, but he thought he was “dirty” & had his money, because of how Cates set it up. Zappa just wants his 3 million back…he’s not trying to deal with Vice, just Crockett specifically.

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4 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

If I remember right, Zappa knew Crockett was Vice, but he thought he was “dirty” & had his money, because of how Cates set it up. Zappa just wants his 3 million back…he’s not trying to deal with Vice, just Crockett specifically.

That was my understanding too.  Fuente knew Crockett was Burnett. I think he believed Crockett was dirty and had the money based on the opening scene with the Roberto Duran prison character who shot himself.    Could be wrong though?

Edited by pahonu
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Am 3.12.2023 um 13:41 schrieb Matt Twist:

Can someone please help me understand the plan Cates up with for them to buy the drugs from Zappa (forgotten his characters name sorry).  At this point Zappa knows Crockett is Vice.  He wants his 3 million back and the only way he’ll get it is if he trades it with Vice for drugs.  I just don’t understand how that part of the plot makes sense on any level.   
That coupled with Cates own plans making no sense make for a very confusing nonsensical episode.

I still love it and until you figure out none of it really makes any logical sense it feels like one of the most densely scripted and interesting plot of the series.

 

Maroto, a small gofer for Fuente (played by Zappa), stole 3 million from Fuente and got busted by Crockett. Maroto asks Crockett to visit him in prison and kills himself as revenge to pin it on Crockett. After that Crockett gets mysterious messages and calls, as Fuente searches for him and believes Crockett has the 3 million after Maroto told him where he hid it. In reality, Cates found out where Maroto stashed it and took it. Cates builds Crockett up as fall guy by organizing a meet between Crockett and Fuente, assuming he can walk away with the money after Crockett is killed. For the meet, Crockett plays the dirty cop and demands to keep half the money. But finally Crockett kills Cates on the boat driving to Fuente.

I also see a major logical loophole here, as the plan is too complicated. In a normal world, Cates just would have taken the money from the stash and silently left. Nobody suspected Cates at all and Fuente would not have been after him. This whole setting up of Crockett is an overengineered story where the writer did not see the forest from the trees.

 

Edited by Tom
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1 hour ago, pahonu said:

That was my understanding too.  Fuente knew Crockett was Burnett. I think he believed Crockett was dirty and had the money based on what was said by the Roberto Duran prison character who shot himself.    Could be wrong though?

You’re exactly correct. Cates set it up to make Crockett look dirty & had stolen Fuentes’ money…including using Maroto in prison (and who had actually originally stole the money) to make it look like they had a meeting about the $$. Cates then thought he could eventually have it, once Sonny was probably killed by Fuentes.

But, as for a plot issue of why Cates bothered to set up Crockett…he needed a fall-guy, a patsy. He was involved with Fuentes and the dealings with the 3 million. If he just took it, and then took off, it would be very obvious, and Fuentes would have his men looking for him, and eventually find him, and kill him.

If he set up someone else to take the fall, and make it look like that person actually had the money, and the money was never found, eventually he would be able to take it, and then maybe move on to somewhere else, and supposedly Fuentes would be none-the-wiser. He needed a very complex and elaborate plan to try and pull it off.

However, as we all know, Crockett ended up shooting Cates on the boat, and the fish got the 3 million. :p 

Edited by ViceFanMan
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