Spyder

when did MV jump the shark for you?

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ViceFanMan
Valid points - when the departed mentioned MV jumping the shark in Season 2 that is mad.:D
Exactly! :thumbsup: I was like...WHAT?? :rolleyes: LOL! :)
I'm not so sure it "Jumped the Shark"' date=' i believe the shows end was a combination of a lot of things' date=' shooting schedule, various weak scripts, time slot moved from year-to-year, etc... Could the show have continued, yes, if these and more issues were addressed and if Micheal Mann would have made the show his only focus, I believe it could have. IMO :thumbsup:[/quote'']Definitely! There were many factors that contributed to the show not going on...but there were many things that could have been done to continue it, and I think they could have gained back lost ratings! :thumbsup:

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Viceman Cometh

Interesting thread. As expected, "Missing Hours" gets a lot of blame. Also as expected, there are a lot of die hards who claim it "never jumped" (which is ridiculous). It's really a complicated question. The first jump was probably the debut of S3, which abandoned the iconic look we'd come to know and love. But that's also not fair to S3, which has some of the best episodes of the series' run.The real jump most likely happened somewhere in S4. It starts off with the mediocre "Contempt of Couirt." The next ep, "Amen Send Money" is absolute shite. But then it rebounds with "Death and the Lady."I'm going to say it jumped in "Blood and Roses" with the obvious dummy being thrown down the steps in place of a stunt man. Because not much good happens in the series after that. Sure, the "Burnett" arc -- but that's more like a self-contained mini-series. And except for a small handful of eps, S5 is unwatchable.

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Stinger390X
Well folks' date=' i hope you guys are right, im right in the thick of all that crap in season 4, im still interested to see the change of crockett to burnette which im not up to yet, i may skip some episodes, ive skiped 3 so far, i may pick it up at badge of dishonor, i dont know how much more of this i can take!!!! as for "jumping the Shark" im thinking around big Thaw then missing hours, after that it seems like its goin way down... i kinda wish that had got back on track faster to what "vice" is supposed to be! guns, cars, women and vice! il keep ya updated![/quote']I think even with some of the weaker episodes the Burnett trilogy rely sparked a new revision into the series. I especially liked the Burnett trilogy and the story line, although a bit out there... still has a good dramatic line in the whole story of MV.Yes it had it's ups and downs in S4&5 but at least the trilogy brought back some exitement which even carried on a bit into S5 in some other episodes of courtroom drama.I also like the story lines in a couple of episodes of Stan's gambling habit as it made up for the bad stories like Miracle Man and other blunders.

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Viceman Cometh

The reason the Burnett arc is best viewed as a self-contained mini-series/alternate history is that Crockett would NEVER have had a career in law enforcement again after a stunt like that. He would've been quietly forced into retirement. If you try to watch the episodes after that arc with the knowledge that this guy went off the rails, became a drug lord and tried to have his partner murdered (the same partner he's STILL with) ... well, it's simply laughable.

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Tony D.

I :done: checked Never because the show never let me down. A few episodes jumped the shark like Missing Hours, Bullet for Crockett (too many replays) and Leap of Faith ( didn't feel like Miami Vice) but Freefall and Too Much, Too Late pulled MV back.It ended too soon! :cry:

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Matt5
I :done: checked Never because the show never let me down. A few episodes jumped the shark like Missing Hours' date=' Bullet for Crockett (too many replays) and Leap of Faith ( didn't feel like Miami Vice) but Freefall and Too Much, Too Late pulled MV back.It ended too soon! :cry:[/quote']I agree the show never really jumped the shark - they introduced Sheena Easton for higher ratings for "Like A Hurricane " - but a poster here said "Contempt of Court" was mediocre and "Amen ..Send Money" was complete rubbish - I cant agree with that at all :thumbsdown:

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Kavinsky
The reason the Burnett arc is best viewed as a self-contained mini-series/alternate history is that Crockett would NEVER have had a career in law enforcement again after a stunt like that. He would've been quietly forced into retirement. If you try to watch the episodes after that arc with the knowledge that this guy went off the rails' date=' became a drug lord and tried to have his partner murdered (the same partner he's STILL with) ... well, it's simply laughable.[/quote']yeah when you think about it, it almost seems like after all that was said and done after crockett somewhat recovers you could have probably put that next to freefall and it would have made abit more sense.Personally I think the only episode that kind of got on my nerves really was Bushido, I dont know out of the EJO based episodes that one just seems kinda out there and out of place, almost like it kind of belonged on the A team with the plot about the Russians.just not on miami vice, hell one of the bad guys looked like he was straight off the set of Dick Tracy actually.

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alleycat

Vice ended to soon there was so many open stories still to tell.So many possibilities a writer's dream in my opinion and I write.Your imagination can go so far with the characters and develop new loves or ignites others and finish stories that were put out there.I mean there are a few episodes of vice that needs to be continued or you would like to know what would happen like Rico's son who survived the car explosion on Sons and Lovers and whether Sonny and Rico at the end of freefall went into being Private Detectives maybe or did they come back to vice.Now Vice would be totally different and very modern of course but you see the possibilities. I think of Miami Vice like the Phoenix coming out of the ashes.

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ViceFanMan
Personally I think the only episode that kind of got on my nerves really was Bushido' date=' I dont know out of the EJO based episodes that one just seems kinda out there and out of place, almost like it kind of belonged on the A team with the plot about the Russians.[/quote']Yeah, I agree. For some reason "Bushido" just doesn't quite "jive" with me either. I'm not sure exactly what it is...don't know if it's necessarily "A-Team" material as it's a little "dark" for that show--love the remark though! :) I thought EJO did an awesome job with what the script was...I think I just didn't care for the storyline. I agree...it just seemed too "out-there" and didn't quite come together right. However, in regards to the topic of this thread, by no means is "Bushido" that bad of an episode (like "Missing Hours"), and I don't think it had much to do with the downfall of the ratings in the end. ;)
Vice ended to soon there was so many open stories still to tell.So many possibilities a writer's dream in my opinion and I write.Your imagination can go so far with the characters and develop new loves or ignites others and finish stories that were put out there.I mean there are a few episodes of vice that needs to be continued or you would like to know what would happen like Rico's son who survived the car explosion on Sons and Lovers and whether Sonny and Rico at the end of freefall went into being Private Detectives maybe or did they come back to vice.Now Vice would be totally different and very modern of course but you see the possibilities. I think of Miami Vice like the Phoenix coming out of the ashes.
Amen...could not have said it much better!! :thumbsup: There were so many other storylines they could have come back to and/or had some closure with...as well as continued on or created new! Along with Tubb's baby son and what happened to Crockett and Tubbs after "Freefall"...I think they could have eventually gotten Crockett and Gina back together' date=' once Caitlin was dead. Like I stated in earlier posts...if the writers had gotten it together and we once again had decent scripts/plotlines, the actors were all still willing, and NBC had gotten it together and given the show another chance...I think it could have gone on for several more seasons! If "Hunter" lasted for 7 seasons and "Magnum, p.i." lasted 8...then "MV" could have [b']definitely gone on for that long if the aspects I mentioned had come to pass. :cool:

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Viceman Cometh

I agree the show never really jumped the shark - they introduced Sheena Easton for higher ratings for "Like A Hurricane " - but a poster here said "Contempt of Court" was mediocre and "Amen ..Send Money" was complete rubbish - I cant agree with that at all :thumbsdown:

You're welcome.:clap: And I have a name. Been here a long time.

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Philippe

I for one can't understand why Miami Vice never got back, especially with the popularity of cop shows nowadays. Miami Vice pioneered the modern style cop show and as such should have been reintroduced on tv.It may have jumped the gator, but that was merely due to the writers coming up with average quality stories. The concept itself still has a reason of being and no other show did fill in the gap.

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Guest MetroVice
I for one can't understand why Miami Vice never got back' date=' especially with the popularity of cop shows nowadays. Miami Vice pioneered the modern style cop show and as such should have been reintroduced on tv.It may have jumped the gator, but that was merely due to the writers coming up with average quality stories. The concept itself still has a reason of being and no other show did fill in the gap.[/quote']I have to agree with you there. I too think that Vice could have easily continued another two or three seasons had the writing been there. I just don't understand how things like this happen when you have such a successful TV show like Miami Vice that goes from mind-blowing great to drop-out in such a short time. I too think it was the writing that did them in but I know there were also some issues within. Eddie Olmos was doing motion pictures and DJ felt he was just too good for television anymore and desperately wanted off the show to be a big movie star, all in a time when movie stars who did TV was considered a bad thing. Of course today things have done a 180 where it's hugely popular for even big movie stars to do television shows now. Who would'a ever thought??? Then there was PMT who was just happy to be working in such a highly acclaimed show as Vice, and he would have been more than happy if the show would have continued on another five seasons. PMT has always impressed me the most with such a grateful attitude he always had for being part of that show. I think he was one of the very few who truly appreciated every moment of Miami Vice from start-to-finish and all it did for all of them. With such a cool attitude I just wish his own career would have been more successful. But as long as he's happy that's all that counts I guess.For me "Missing Hours" was the point where I said to myself the show had truly lost it's magic. Clearly there were other prior issues that had occurred, such as Richard Bravo initially leaving as the #1 camera, then Jan Hammer's exit from the project, then the writing and overall look changed... things just changed so much from the original format it was no wonder the audience waned more and more.Now that so many years have passed my opinion has changed though, but only because of it's nostalgia and the cool impression the show left on me, even after all this time. Even with the changes they went through the few first seasons and the few stinker episodes that followed I still love the show very much because it represents a time in my own life that was very good, and living in the Miami area and actually seeing the production crews shooting on-location at times had an impact on me as well. You might say I'm a little biased for Vice because of that :thumbsup:Personally I wish Vice would have went on another two or three seasons. Had they somewhat gone back to the original format I think it might have worked better for them.

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Vincent Hanna

Valid points - when the departed mentioned MV jumping the shark in Season 2 that is mad.:D

I'm not saying season 2 is bad. It's my favourite season but some of the later episodes are very weak and it's just annoying. Whatever works is a good ep and i like how it opens up the season, but Tale of Goat has got to be the worst episode they made up to that point. And then you got crap like Free verse, French Twist & The fixx near the end. It just feels like they strayed too far away from the premise of the pilot at times in S2, Which is fine, When you experiment, not everything is going to be great.The middle of season 2 from Bought and paid for to Little Miss Dangerous has gotta be the best consecutive stretch of episodes in the run & I feel like they don't reach that level of High again. Even though they still made great episodes afterwards, just more few and farther between.

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Matt5
I'm not saying season 2 is bad. It's my favourite season but some of the later episodes are very weak and it's just annoying. Whatever works is a good ep and i like how it opens up the season' date=' but Tale of Goat has got to be the worst episode they made up to that point. And then you got crap like Free verse, French Twist & The fixx near the end. It just feels like they strayed too far away from the premise of the pilot at times in S2, Which is fine, When you experiment, not everything is going to be great.The middle of season 2 from Bought and paid for to Little Miss Dangerous has gotta be the best consecutive stretch of episodes in the run & I feel like they don't reach that level of High again. Even though they still made great episodes afterwards, just more few and farther between.[/quote']Im sorry the departed94 I cannot agree with your viewpoint - but thats what this site is all about viewpoints :D

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Kavinsky

Ain't that the truth matt, With Bushido vicefan man your right it is by no means a "Threshold" kind of episode in that regard but I think it felt well too soap opera ish for vice.I mean vice even in the dark episodes and seasons had some sort of relief from the situation like the end of the pilot.So you'll be heading up to the big bad bronx after thus huh tubbs? are you kidding after this stunt I'll be lucky if I get back on the payroll as a meter maid!and I dont remember a single relief moment in the whole thing, outside of how funny it was to have sledge hammer as the villain eh sorry that kind of takes some explaining in that regard with the threshold reference, theres this notoriously awful episode of star trek voyager that is often regarded the worst ever star trek episode. where because they go over warp 10, the said threshold and the two leads, Janeway and Paris turn into lizzards and have kids and then somehow get turned back with technobabelmade all the stranger when in the last episode of TNG long before that episode the Enterprise D went over warp 10 in the future universe and didnt have the whole damn crew turn into lizzardsand that aint a joke that's the truth so even when missing hours is compaired to it, its still better than that, must have been high off of the stuff they put in LCD screens or something when they wrote that episode.and its such a bad episode I'm seriously surprised someone hasnt made up I survived threshold T shirt for the trek fans out there.also before I forget nice signature Philippe

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Tony D.

For those who don't like "Bushido", here is my review : Castillo is dynamite! review: Loved this episode! The story of the Japanese warrior-friends and the emotions between Castillo & Gretsky are first class. The estate with the royal palms is majestic & awesome and almost magical! I'd love to see this place live! Surf was really likeable.Too bad he was KGB. My favorite line--when Sonny yells " Surf's up!"I also noticed how formal Castillo acted when he gave the sword to little Marty. Like a ceremony was being performed. This episode is in my top 10 eps if not my top 5. In the back of my mind, those tall palm trees & beautiful blue-green water made this N.Y. guy finally move to Florida. Some observations : Trudy on real skates, not rollerblades, that even I could stand-up on. Crockett sweating profusely in his light shirt & Tubbs doing isometric flexes in a long sleeve shirt & tie, & barely breaking a sweat. I really dig the oriental background music throughout the episode. Castillo gives a couple real big smiles to Gretsky. When they were recounting the battle with the shogun warriors,"back to back, with drawn swords, I thought of them being, "Brothers in Arms"! The story of Toshi, was an allegory. Little Marty never heard that one from his dad, so I think Castillo made it up on the spot to describe his duel with his friend. The abandoned estate, freom the air, looks like the one DJ is selling in Calif. I really liked Surf. Too bad he was KGB! Prickle mentioned the engine turning itself off. I had the sub-titles on & it said "engine dying." Maybe since he wasn't giving it gas, it died, or maybe it needed a tuneup! My favorite lines are: , "Surf's up, Pal!" ; and " When you go, you go all the way" ; Tubbs - "Castillo doesn't give an inch" Crockett - "He can't!" Yeah, Castillo is "BAD". Funny how I didn't like him 'cause he was so colorless when I first saw him. Since then, I see how complex & cool he is, in his own way! There is so much emotion between Gretsky & Castillo. Great acting!I rate this ep a 10 !

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ViceFanMan
I'm not saying season 2 is bad. It's my favourite season but some of the later episodes are very weak and it's just annoying. Whatever works is a good ep and i like how it opens up the season' date=' but Tale of Goat has got to be the worst episode they made up to that point. And then you got crap like Free verse, French Twist & The fixx near the end. It just feels like they strayed too far away from the premise of the pilot at times in S2, Which is fine, When you experiment, not everything is going to be great.The middle of season 2 from Bought and paid for to Little Miss Dangerous has gotta be the best consecutive stretch of episodes in the run & I feel like they don't reach that level of High again. Even though they still made great episodes afterwards, just more few and farther between.[/quote']I'm sorry, departed...but I totally disagree with you. :eek: "Tale of the Goat" is one of the best episodes of the 2nd season--and a nice change from the standard drug/illegal weapons dealer episodes! "Little Miss Dangerous" also fits that bill, and is one of my favorites. :thumbsup: I also like "Free Verse" and especially "French Twist"! However, the one thing I agree with you is that probably the only episode out of season 2 I don't really care for that much is "The Fix". Season 2 is probably one of the most popular and remembered seasons of the show (possibly even slightly more than season 1...but I might be wrong on that) and it's my favorite season! :clap: I love every episode in it, except for maybe "The Fix"...but I can even watch that one with little problems. ;) I also love season 3, and most episodes in it! Seasons 4 and 5 did "stray" somewhat and ratings suffered. But, I still like several episodes in each and like watching them too.The only episodes that I really cannot stand and usually skip when going through the show are "Missing Hours" and "Cows of October". They, and they alone, are garbage! :thumbsdown: But, other than those two...the rest of the show is still "Miami Vice"! :cool:The show could easily have gone on for a few more seasons--if the actors, writers, and producers had all been on board. Much of the color scheme is now back in style, and "MV" really shaped a lot of how cop shows are done or made now. In all honesty (and I've stated this before), other than no one having cell phones or laptop computers...the show could be made again today! :glossy:But, everyone has their opinions I guess. To each his or her own. ;)

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Matt5

totally disagree with you. :eek: "Tale of the Goat" is one of the best episodes of the 2nd season--and a nice change from the standard drug/illegal weapons dealer episodes! "Little Miss Dangerous" also fits that bill, and is one of my favorites. :thumbsup: I also like "Free Verse" and especially "French Twist"! However, the one thing I agree with you is that probably the only episode out of season 2 I don't really care for that much is "The Fix". Season 2 is probably one of the most popular and remembered seasons of the show (possibly even slightly more than season 1...but I might be wrong on that) and it's my favorite season! :clap: I love every episode in it, except for maybe "The Fix"...but I can even watch that one with little problems. ;) I also love season 3, and most episodes in it! Seasons 4 and 5 did "stray" somewhat and ratings suffered. But, I still like several episodes in each and like watching them too.The only episodes that I really cannot stand and usually skip when going through the show are "Missing Hours" and "Cows of October". They, and they alone, are garbage! :thumbsdown: But, other than those two...the rest of the show is still "Miami Vice"! :cool:The show could easily have gone on for a few more seasons--if the actors, writers, and producers had all been on board. Much of the color scheme is now back in style, and "MV" really shaped a lot of how cop shows are done or made now. In all honesty (and I've stated this before), other than no one having cell phones or laptop computers...the show could be made again today! :glossy:But, everyone has their opinions I guess. To each his or her own. ;)

Thankyou vicefanman :D:clap:

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Vincent Hanna

Viking bikers, Heroes of revolution and everybody in showbiz. Three bad/terrible episodes all in a row and the decidedly last hurrah in style before things start to get even worse.

 

...And it's a year later and i still think i'm right xD…Tale of a goat is HORRIBLE, tubbs lying unconscious in the empty swimming pool was a metaphor for that episode tanking..

 

Season 3 has probably got more well written episodes than S2 overall, i don't think that's a controversial statement to make. There are episodes in S2 where C&Ts literally do Nothing, they just sit around talking. Some of the stories are thin as a pancake.

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Kavinsky

Brad Jones, a member of the Nolstagia critic's group on youtube and blip said that a show jumps the shark when they do an amensia episode.

 

however I would think of The Burnett saga as Miami Vice's mirror mirror.... so I dont know if that counts then.

 

that is not to say that season 3 doesnt have alot of episodes I wouldnt return to as I find them unplessant.

 

Reb AHHHHHHHHH! Brown's episode in particular and the overly melodramatic music choices and writing of S3 do knock it abit. actually I think S4 was abit more fun, despite the problems.

 

so Season 3 is when it jumped the shark in my mind, but it did come right back down though and came back swinging in S4, and in general it never got to stephen J cannell levels of Camp and blandness

Edited by Kavinsky

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Vincent Hanna

For me, introducing Sci-Fi elements to a police procedural show is always a No No.

 

The James Brown Alien, The frozen rastafarian (walt disney style) and the Cow Bull semen did more harm to the show than any of the Amnesia episodes could do, which are widely considered some of the better episodes of S4-5. If every episode had the same style and panache as Deliver us from Evil/Mirror Image then it would have been awesome.

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Spyder

For me, introducing Sci-Fi elements to a police procedural show is always a No No.

 

The James Brown Alien, The frozen rastafarian (walt disney style) and the Cow Bull semen did more harm to the show than any of the Amnesia episodes could do, which are widely considered some of the better episodes of S4-5. If every episode had the same style and panache as Deliver us from Evil/Mirror Image then it would have been awesome.

Blame Dick Wolf. He never had any respect for Miami Vice and was looking for every way for the show to make fun of itself, hence the comedy episodes in S4. Notice how Law & Order was always deadly serious and never had any humor. 

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mvnyc

I don't think the show itself "jumped the shark". Like others have said previously, it jumped for some episodes, but bounced back many times...

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Kavinsky

you know when you think about it, anyone can name good episodes for all of the seasons, and bad ones to go with them.

 

but the biggest sin is to have everything blur together and mean nothing, and I dont think vice ever did that, Star Trek Voyager and Enterprise yes, but Vice, no, and while it may have had its really bad episodes, theres never been anything quite like this in it

 

http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/awful-thon-2015-number-4-7136013

 

outside of that cow episode... that is the only one that sticks out in my mind as maybe being that insulting, where no one leaves with their dignity intact.

 

and keep in mind, according to the way things are done now with TV, that show with its average viewership nowadays according to the numbers would have been a hit in 2015, while back then it failed and was the first trek show to get canceled period because of how awful it was.

 

and even I towards the end was going let it die.

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Vincent Hanna

you know when you think about it, anyone can name good episodes for all of the seasons, and bad ones to go with them.

 

but the biggest sin is to have everything blur together and mean nothing, and I dont think vice ever did that, Star Trek Voyager and Enterprise yes, but Vice, no, and while it may have had its really bad episodes, theres never been anything quite like this in it

 

http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/awful-thon-2015-number-4-7136013

 

outside of that cow episode... that is the only one that sticks out in my mind as maybe being that insulting, where no one leaves with their dignity intact.

 

and keep in mind, according to the way things are done now with TV, that show with its average viewership nowadays according to the numbers would have been a hit in 2015, while back then it failed and was the first trek show to get canceled period because of how awful it was.

 

and even I towards the end was going let it die.

 

I disagree a little bit because the show unfortunately did jump the shark and plow straight into the ground quality wise, on more than one occasion. You got this hip TV show about vice cops and they somehow let frozen rastafarians, cow semen and literally an alien make it on to the show. Atleast those episodes are kooky and ridiculous, but some of the other episodes in S4-5 are just lazy phoned-in uncreative messes that don't even deserve the recognition of being the worst because they are so forgettable. Amen send money, Hell Hath no Fury, Indian Wars, Borrasca, Asian cut, The cell within etc.

 

Compare episodes like Evan, Payback, Out where the buses don't run to "Vote of Confidence" for instance.. I've never seen another successful, well made show that declined in quality so quickly like vice did. Even S3 had some great episodes and if you think that Amen.send money was filmed only a few months after the late ..S3 episodes like By hooker by crook and Lend me and ear which have very distinct visual styles. It's hard to believe they are the same show.

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