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Burnett's S&W 4506!!

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Lifeguard

Good review.  The 645-TR (4506) is remarkably similar to the early 645 on that video.  Just sights, grips, decocker, and machining differences.  Having had mine apart and worked with it, I would not have noticed the difference on the video if I was not paying close attention, they are really similar.  The loose decocker after shooting is definitely fixed on the 4506.  It was nice to see the difference between a modern plastic fantastic handgun and 645.  The 645 is still far better looking.  

 

I have to disagree with his characterizing the 645 of being discontinued after 3 years.  The 4506 is the next generation of the 645.  Other than the changes listed above and the finish, they are still the same handgun.  

Edited by Lifeguard

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Kavinsky

With the decocker I took it off when I first got it since I knew of this, cleaned it (as it still had the original grease on it that had gone green) and blue locktighted it, and no problems to report since then. 

 

and I went over the entire gun that way and overlubed everything so that I could have everything that was possibly dry covered in oil before I broke it in.

 

with the discontinued thing I think he probably just didnt know that the 4506 was basically still the 645 with a few changes, that was made until the early 2000's for LEO's. and was the basis of the 10 MM 1006  in 1990 and the .40 Super Test gun, a cartridge that was made by a particular ammo company that used a necked down 45 to offer 10mm performance out of a .40 without any of the negatives of the 10mm.

 

although it needed a tougher recoil spring, but that was to be expected, so from 16 LB to 23.

 

so its just a slight folly there, although I guess someone should tell him as he's missing out on two newer and greater guns he could add to his collection.

 

but I have to admit after getting my hands on a 4006 and seeing that the main spring was connected to the frame via steel on steel with the steel grip retaining pin rather than plastic like I thought it was going to be. I cant help but think I like the 4506 more than the 645 now.

 

although I'm thinking that the thing that is nagging me is the orange blade on the front, and once that's changed over that should put an end to that thought.

 

as its the one part that just sticks out and doesnt fit with the visual style of the gun, plus I think the beadblasted finish of the 4006 spoiled me when I put the two side by side.

 

as something about this just looks way cooler than the polished and brushed finish

 

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plus its eastwood lol

 

also I'm not sure if you know this but IMI made a Desert Eagle with a very 645's like brushed finish,

 

 

and I saw one of these in 50 call in action at my range last weekend, the SOB is loud and in the hands of someone where the 645 seems like a 9mm, it looked like a giant Cartoon Bad Guy gun in my hand and did not fit it

 

and I was just breaking up at how Ludicris the gun seemed, although the guy was 6 foot something and was there with his wife teaching her how to shoot.

 

the kicker was I was thinking you know the .357 might actually be a practical magnum hand gun right before I went to the range with its 9 shot clip vs 6. and then I see the .50 in person and in action and jesus lol

 

no person in there right mind would use a .50 for real life use, as a toy yes, as a sidearm like a bad guy in a movie would do, no way lol

 

plus 180 grain Remington ammo out of a model 29 with a 6 inch sounds better, as it gives it that proper magnum force sound.

 

 

Note to self, buy eagle N frame coke bottle reproduction grips before the 29th of november and 3 boxes of 180 grain bullets.

 

 

oh and also on a different matter I found this video as well, of someone shooting the 4 inch version of the bren ten

 

 

I ment to post them both on there appropriate threads but forgot about it, as I was busy writing the basic guide to the V8 interceptors, no wait

 

V8 replicas of the daytona, thats what it was.

Edited by Kavinsky

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Protector68
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S&W 4506 

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  1. Ell.a
    Ell.a 
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  2. Protector68
    Protector68
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Hi I'm new to MiamiViceOnline but am a big Vice fan and know my firearms. I remember reading on this sight about Crockett's S&W 4506 and the magazine type that he would of carried. I was curious myself since the S&W 645s magazine had the metal buttplate with metal follower. The next progression was the metal buttplate with a rubber bumper glued onto the metal buttplate with an orange follower. I was watching season 5 episode 16 and noticed that crocketts 4506 had a metal buttplate magazine not a rubber bumper type that would have been provided with the 4506. If Crocketts was actually a transitional S&W a 6450 then he may have the 645 type magazines. Also in the episode Freefall when Crockett and Tubbs are in the locker room loading up it looks like crocketts 4506 has the rubber Houge grips which were arched.

Thank you

 

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Lifeguard
On 2/1/2016 at 3:00 PM, Protector68 said:
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Hi I'm new to MiamiViceOnline but am a big Vice fan and know my firearms. I remember reading on this sight about Crockett's S&W 4506 and the magazine type that he would of carried. I was curious myself since the S&W 645s magazine had the metal buttplate with metal follower. The next progression was the metal buttplate with a rubber bumper glued onto the metal buttplate with an orange follower. I was watching season 5 episode 16 and noticed that crocketts 4506 had a metal buttplate magazine not a rubber bumper type that would have been provided with the 4506. If Crocketts was actually a transitional S&W a 6450 then he may have the 645 type magazines. Also in the episode Freefall when Crockett and Tubbs are in the locker room loading up it looks like crocketts 4506 has the rubber Houge grips which were arched.

Thank you

 

 

On 2/1/2016 at 3:00 PM, Protector68 said:

 

I only just noticed this post because I forgot to follow this thread.  It's strangely formatted?   But, in 5th season when S&W supplied their 3rd Gen .45 to the production it was very  a very early release.  The first 600 or so hand assembled then test assembled were stamped 645 instead 4506.  I have one of these.  So his sidearm was technically still a 645 interim, which i just shorthand to 645-INT to differentiate it from the two versions of the 645 which I refer to as 645-early and 645-late.  The early and late are only different in the grip material and attachment screws, and the screw type for the de-cocker.  But the 645-INT is exactly the same as the early 4506s, just stamped 645.  

The 645 mags that were used on the production for 3rd and 4th season were the earliest version with a metal follower, and a smooth baseplate with no hole for the later button release on the plate.  It is to accidentally slide the baseplate of these early mags and end up emptying your mag of spring, follower and rounds on the ground.  That's why it was changed later, but they kept the originals for seasons 3, 4, and 5.  The 645-INT would have come with the plastic baseplate of the 4506, mine did.  But they may not have gotten a dozen of them to use, or the larger baseplate would not fit into the custom mag case on the Galco shoulder holster.  The metal baseplate mag will fit in any mag case with strap a 1911 mag fits in, but the plastic one won't.  The plastic baseplate upgrade may have been to cushion mags dropped on release, prevent the baseplate from scratching anything when on a hip holster, or both.  I know you will find some of the metal baseplates with a Pachmayr cushion adhered to the bottom which I guess was a popular upgrade for 645s in the day, along with their grips.  

IMG_1205_zpsuvn1pdbd.jpg

IMG_0424_zpsc96b3a4f.jpg

IMG_0431_zps582c433b.jpg

 

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Kavinsky

I think its just a matter of the magazine can easily be serviced with the plastic baseplate, while back then you just bought a new one and threw out the old one, although P38 mags had that same ability to be taken apart, much like the latter ones.

as no one ever mentioned someone loosing the baseplate and loosing all of the rounds when i was doing the background searches on the 645. tearing up the seats though on bench seated cop cars, that they did.

as they would have it in a hip holster and the mag would catch on the vinyl seats and rip it while out on patrol with them. which is probably why the change was really done. as its less things it can catch on.

Edited by Kavinsky

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Lifeguard
22 hours ago, Kavinsky said:

I think its just a matter of the magazine can easily be serviced with the plastic baseplate, while back then you just bought a new one and threw out the old one, although P38 mags had that same ability to be taken apart, much like the latter ones.

as no one ever mentioned someone loosing the baseplate and loosing all of the rounds when i was doing the background searches on the 645. tearing up the seats though on bench seated cop cars, that they did.

as they would have it in a hip holster and the mag would catch on the vinyl seats and rip it while out on patrol with them. which is probably why the change was really done. as its less things it can catch on.

I did see some people talk about doing speed changes on the range back in the day and the base plate sliding off and dumping the contents out.  I have all early mags too for screen accuracy, and have caught them sliding up before.  I didn't have any dump on me, but if that side tab is not properly crimped it can easily slide right off with a little pressure. The button in the center of the metal plate in the update, and the 4506 plastic plate definitely solve that problem (or just checking the crimps too).  

I've also seen people speculate on the the plastic plate being a bumper when the mag drops out of the well to the table or ground.  I know Pachmayr had their adhesive mag bottoms they used to offer.  The 4506 in the shoulder holster given to Galco has metal bottom mags with those on them.  

I'll have to get some comparison pics up when I get my replacement iPhone that shows the difference between the three types.  I think i still have some button mags that didn't sell on eBay.  I know I have the plastic bottom mag in the original box for my 645-INT.  

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Kavinsky
On 11/10/2016 at 11:49 PM, Lifeguard said:

I did see some people talk about doing speed changes on the range back in the day and the base plate sliding off and dumping the contents out.  I have all early mags too for screen accuracy, and have caught them sliding up before.  I didn't have any dump on me, but if that side tab is not properly crimped it can easily slide right off with a little pressure. The button in the center of the metal plate in the update, and the 4506 plastic plate definitely solve that problem (or just checking the crimps too).  

I've also seen people speculate on the the plastic plate being a bumper when the mag drops out of the well to the table or ground.  I know Pachmayr had their adhesive mag bottoms they used to offer.  The 4506 in the shoulder holster given to Galco has metal bottom mags with those on them.  

I'll have to get some comparison pics up when I get my replacement iPhone that shows the difference between the three types.  I think i still have some button mags that didn't sell on eBay.  I know I have the plastic bottom mag in the original box for my 645-INT.  

Well it could be a few things, maybe they got abused abit and it causes the thing to come undone overtime like that? or maybe I got lucky and got one with really good magazines?

as their no cheap press metal colt mags, that's for damn sure, now those were cheap and chintzy, and were one of the first things I changed on the colt.

and actually colt M1911 mags are purported to work on the 645/4506 series provided their 8 shot and that the follower is changed over to the smith style now that I think of it.

and in a way the same thing is going on with the holsters, for years I've heard of people using beretta 92FS holsters for 645's and early 4506's,  given the squared trigger guard, but I've never attempted it

Edited by Kavinsky

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Lifeguard
7 hours ago, Kavinsky said:

Well it could be a few things, maybe they got abused abit and it causes the thing to come undone overtime like that? or maybe I got lucky and got one with really good magazines?

as their no cheap press metal colt mags, that's for damn sure, now those were cheap and chintzy, and were one of the first things I changed on the colt.

and actually colt M1911 mags are purported to work on the 645/4506 series provided their 8 shot and that the follower is changed over to the smith style now that I think of it.

and in a way the same thing is going on with the holsters, for years I've heard of people using beretta 92FS holsters for 645's and early 4506's,  given the squared trigger guard, but I've never attempted it

I suppose you could massage the leather into fitting it, but that is a really tight fit.  The 645 slide is a lot thicker than a Beretta's.  I've had no trouble picking up about 8 Galco shoulder holsters over several years for mine.  I'm not looking for belt holsters, so I can't say how easy it is to find those.  Of course there's always custom holsters, you'll get a lot better quality and something that really fits your sidearm.  

Hmmmm.....hadn't considered the 1911 mags.  the 645/4506 mags are pretty plentiful, so I have no reason to scrounge.  I have enough of the original early 645 mag for two sets of 3 for my two 645s.  And then one left over to slip in a pocket, and one to load with snap caps for dry practice.  Then I have a few of the later styles that I can't seem to sell anymore since they discontinued the 4506 mag and dumped the leftover stock cheap on the market.  

I'll try to get a webcam out and show the differences and weaknesses of the mags.

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Lifeguard

Here's my collection of early 645 mags with the metal follower and the flat bottom:

Photo%20on%2011-15-16%20at%203.11%20AM%2

I took my loaded ones out of my mag case on my Galco shoulder holster harness and one of the bottom plates had already worked its way partly off:

Photo%20on%2011-15-16%20at%203.12%20AM%2

You can imagine quickly loading that mag and in the process accidentally sliding the plate off.  To fix it, I slid it back in place:

Photo%20on%2011-15-16%20at%203.13%20AM%2

And then crimped the little tab that folds down to provide resistance to sliding the plate forward.  I tuned up all my mags while I was at it, but had done that before and just from wearing it, the plate had worked its way forward.

Photo%20on%2011-15-16%20at%203.14%20AM_z

I unwrapped my mag in my 645-INT box and realized this wasn't the original 4506 mag.  It was a later 645 improved mag with the orange plastic follower and button plate.  The plastic bottom plate and black plastic follower were on the 4506 mag, and I think the later repair parts kit for it had an yellow follower.  It also had an aftermarket butt plate pad added:

Photo%20on%2011-15-16%20at%203.15%20AM_z

The plates and followers are different, but also inside there is a difference in the base piece of the spring.  A rubber stopped for the early style, and the button plate on the later:

Photo%20on%2011-15-16%20at%203.17%20AM_z

Not only are the plates different, but the body of the mag has spur to catch the early baseplate that the later mag did not have.  So you can't put early parts on a later mag, but you can do it the other way around:

Photo%20on%2011-15-16%20at%203.20%20AM%2

Edited by Lifeguard
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Kavinsky

yeah it could be that they were talking about a hip holsters, something that wouldnt fully cover the slide of the gun for competition, as IPSC doesnt allow shoulder holsters, only hips, so a beretta holster with soft leather could possibly be forced to fit a 4506

 

and I know for a fact that this is an early gun, one of the first as they had square bushings for the grips, latters went to round. so it fits with the mags here, as its the early style and its angled up to keep pressure on the catch there. like in the second photo there, although its a touch more twisted up than the second mag that's holding the baseplate.

as maybe it was a manufacturing error that they didnt twist it enough and it came loose? and thus to simplify the matter they switched over to the latter designs that were more durable and easier to put together, sort of the Wilson combat design really.

and I do have a 4506 mag I keep with it though, been meaning to get more really, it came with two early ones brand new and I bought the 4506 mag latter, no problems with either in its range only use.

although I do know that the galco mags were spring loaded for ease of access, so maybe that aided in the wear and tear on the mag via the added friction created by it?

Edited by Kavinsky

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Lifeguard
11 hours ago, Kavinsky said:

yeah it could be that they were talking about a hip holsters, something that wouldnt fully cover the slide of the gun for competition, as IPSC doesnt allow shoulder holsters, only hips, so a beretta holster with soft leather could possibly be forced to fit a 4506

 

and I know for a fact that this is an early gun, one of the first as they had square bushings for the grips, latters went to round. so it fits with the mags here, as its the early style and its angled up to keep pressure on the catch there. like in the second photo there, although its a touch more twisted up than the second mag that's holding the baseplate.

as maybe it was a manufacturing error that they didnt twist it enough and it came loose? and thus to simplify the matter they switched over to the latter designs that were more durable and easier to put together, sort of the Wilson combat design really.

and I do have a 4506 mag I keep with it though, been meaning to get more really, it came with two early ones brand new and I bought the 4506 mag latter, no problems with either in its range only use.

although I do know that the galco mags were spring loaded for ease of access, so maybe that aided in the wear and tear on the mag via the added friction created by it?

Are you talking about my two 645s or your handguns?  My 645-early is the square bushings with the torx screw on the de-cocker.  

I've bent all the tabs on my early 645 mag plates at least once to keep them secure.  But every now and then I'll find one that has worked it's way loose.  It's just a small metal finger that catches the lip, it's not meant to be a permanent attachment, but to allow it to be disassembled.  So it does bend up with use over time and then can slip off.  Obviously the production got these mags with the 645-early and just kept using them without update or replacement through fifth season.  

Another thing that sometimes happens is the top round on the mag will sometimes work its way loose while wearing it in the mag case.  So you pull your mag out, and then a round just drops out on its own afterwards.  Gotta periodically check to make sure the rounds are still seated in the mag.  

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Kavinsky
On 11/16/2016 at 5:25 PM, Lifeguard said:

Are you talking about my two 645s or your handguns?  My 645-early is the square bushings with the torx screw on the de-cocker.  

I've bent all the tabs on my early 645 mag plates at least once to keep them secure.  But every now and then I'll find one that has worked it's way loose.  It's just a small metal finger that catches the lip, it's not meant to be a permanent attachment, but to allow it to be disassembled.  So it does bend up with use over time and then can slip off.  Obviously the production got these mags with the 645-early and just kept using them without update or replacement through fifth season.  

Another thing that sometimes happens is the top round on the mag will sometimes work its way loose while wearing it in the mag case.  So you pull your mag out, and then a round just drops out on its own afterwards.  Gotta periodically check to make sure the rounds are still seated in the mag.  

yeah I ment mine, as I tried putting on the packmeyer grips only to find the grip screw was actually a square lol

also with the mags, I generally just leave them loaded, as there's 3, 2 with it, the originals, loaded and in the locker and one unloaded on the shelf where I keep all of the spare mags.

and I only unload them to go to the range, so it could be that leaving it without tension and then loading it for use is undoing that.

as the one I have on the shelf that I always use to go shooting is a 4506 mag. and I mix that in with one of the originals and no problems thus far.

although I dont carry it either, I dont even have the shoulder holster for it, I do have a hip holster that I found NOS just incase I ever wanted to IPSC it though as they dont allow shoulder holsters, as then the muzzle crosses over people if you pull it like that, and in a racing situation where mistakes happen and you have no control over how good someone is, its just generally a good idea to make sure that the only way they can hurt someone, is if they shoot themselves in the foot.

which has happened

Safariland 200 D94, for 645 and 4506, out of Ontario CA. Polished Patented leather too, almost too nice to use really. and also that means that the spring loaded mag holders are out of the equation as well.

as when i ran IPSC it was face down mag holders and hip holsters, no covers, and the tension was on the body of the mag via torsion screws in the plastic holding it, not the top where the spring is on the Miami Classic to aid release.

 

also if you havent ever tried it, those boys helped me to learn how to shoot well, so if you have the chance to run a training class with ISPC, do it lol

as they corrected the shooting hold I had learned from the P38 and greatly got me on target with a .45 because of it, as I was doing the cup and saucer, where one hand grasps it, and the other acts as a support to aid release of the mag on it. as its a heel mag release

back when the thing still worked that is, and it drastically improved my handling of the gold cup and all guns from it period.

Edited by Kavinsky

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Lifeguard
5 hours ago, Kavinsky said:

yeah I ment mine, as I tried putting on the packmeyer grips only to find the grip screw was actually a square lol

also with the mags, I generally just leave them loaded, as there's 3, 2 with it, the originals, loaded and in the locker and one unloaded on the shelf where I keep all of the spare mags.

and I only unload them to go to the range, so it could be that leaving it without tension and then loading it for use is undoing that.

as the one I have on the shelf that I always use to go shooting is a 4506 mag. and I mix that in with one of the originals and no problems thus far.

although I dont carry it either, I dont even have the shoulder holster for it, I do have a hip holster that I found NOS just incase I ever wanted to IPSC it though as they dont allow shoulder holsters, as then the muzzle crosses over people if you pull it like that, and in a racing situation where mistakes happen and you have no control over how good someone is, its just generally a good idea to make sure that the only way they can hurt someone, is if they shoot themselves in the foot.

which has happened

Safariland 200 D94, for 645 and 4506, out of Ontario CA. Polished Patented leather too, almost too nice to use really. and also that means that the spring loaded mag holders are out of the equation as well.

as when i ran IPSC it was face down mag holders and hip holsters, no covers, and the tension was on the body of the mag via torsion screws in the plastic holding it, not the top where the spring is on the Miami Classic to aid release.

 

also if you havent ever tried it, those boys helped me to learn how to shoot well, so if you have the chance to run a training class with ISPC, do it lol

as they corrected the shooting hold I had learned from the P38 and greatly got me on target with a .45 because of it, as I was doing the cup and saucer, where one hand grasps it, and the other acts as a support to aid release of the mag on it. as its a heel mag release

back when the thing still worked that is, and it drastically improved my handling of the gold cup and all guns from it period.

The physics behind spring wear seems to be that they weaken from constant compression and release, not from leaving them one way or the other.  So constantly unloading the mags actually weakens them more over the long run then just leaving them full.  I've got plenty to load Federal 213 grain HST in them (can't find any +P) to have one in the 645, two in the mag case, and an extra for a pocket if I think I would need it.  And then have three with ball ammo and one for snap caps for dry practice.

I am in the countryside, so I can shoot anywhere.  No range restrictions.  I did have to take a course for my concealed carry, not ISPC, but my grip and squeeze were already textbook Jeff Cooper (thank you US Army).  No saucers, just double fisted cup.  But he had me adjust stance to feet under each shoulder which made a lot more sense for left and right response, and kept reminding me to bring my sights to my eyeline and not my eyes down to my sights.  Also to keep my right eye open for peripheral vision, as I tend to squint it because the double sights is pretty extreme for me.  A little tape on my protective eyewear at sightline on the right lens helped a lot.  

We didn't draw from holster, but my instructor did not like a shoulder holster for sweeping the left arm on draw.  I've never had this problem because if you are drawing, you aren't doing it casually with your left arm at your side.  You are dynamic, hunching shoulders forward to bring the holster toward the draw hand and forcing the weak arm up to be in position to grasp support and push forward.  It's likely with a close attack that the left hand is already up in defense and out of the way of the barrel line, and so it only sweeps your attacker when drawn.  Same with having your hands up at shoulder level if facing someone with a drawn firearm, if you step back with your right foot, the right hand can easily slip in out of sight and draw.  Even fired through the cover garment if needed for stealth.  I practiced this a lot after my instructors discussion and realized I still like the shoulder holster.  Really the concern for shoulder holster muzzle sweep is just a range thing, not a combat or defense concern.  I used my 6906 to qualify with a lighter wolf recoil spring.  I can hardly notice the muzzle climb between shots, it looks like the sights just stay on the target uninterrupted, so I can pop them one after the other in center torso at 5yd, 7yd, and 10yd.  115 grain FMJ 9mm with some weight to it makes all the difference (I have 150 grain HST JHP for short barrels in it otherwise).  

My instructor did have an issue with my collectable firearms in the class.  He said I should stop watching Miami Vice, he used to watch it too, but there was no way Crockett was making some of the shots he did.  I never actually watched it for combat or defensive training and understood it's fiction especially 3rd season on dive and shooting, so I thought he was out of line for him to comment on that.  But he was also wrong, there was a lot of accurate shooting technique for the time period.  Jim Zubiena did a good job with the actors on the show, and playing his assassin alter ego.  

My instructor said a proper self defense firearm should be drawn from an IWB holster, be a revolver, full steel frame (for control and clubbing), hammerless, DA only, at least a 2" barrel (longer preferable), and a caliber that you can control.  I have to agree with his reasoning, no hammer to keep it clean and from catching in clothing.  I did some research, and I don't know if he knows this, there is only one firearm that meats that criteria.....the S&W 640.  Only one barrel length just over 2", but a 3" probably could be swapped out.  It is a .357mag, so you can fire .38spec, +P or Magnum rounds depending on what you find you can handle, so good flexibility.  Any of those even in a 5 round limit should be man-stop if shot with accuracy.  And 5 is plenty for defense.  But for training a new shooter who may never have any knowledge on how a firearm works, the simplicity of a revolver makes sense.  His argument for DA-only to keep squeeze from round to round also makes sense for beginning shooters.  But if you have training already on the M1911A1 or M9, I really don't think it is that important.  Draw and DA squeeze is different enough from the SA followups.  I never had an issue with adjusting to it.  SA safety release on initial shot seems just as easy to adjust to SA followups.  But I guess I'm just used to it.  I have a problem with these 15 lb factory DA trigger pulls.  Really tough on accuracy.  A little gunsmithing and lighter spring on the hammer to get a 9 lb pull is way more reliable.  Still well above the minimum 5 lb pull they say you should have for SA, or the 4 lb pull that Jeff Cooper recommended.  In the future if I have someone I'm setting up for self defense (especially a much smaller lady), I will probably start them with a .22LR Ruger LCR, and move them up to the .38spec in the 640 if they can handle it, then they can move up +P or .357 Mag if they like.  Makes sense.

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Kavinsky
On 12/4/2016 at 6:16 AM, Lifeguard said:

The physics behind spring wear seems to be that they weaken from constant compression and release, not from leaving them one way or the other.  So constantly unloading the mags actually weakens them more over the long run then just leaving them full.  I've got plenty to load Federal 213 grain HST in them (can't find any +P) to have one in the 645, two in the mag case, and an extra for a pocket if I think I would need it.  And then have three with ball ammo and one for snap caps for dry practice.

I am in the countryside, so I can shoot anywhere.  No range restrictions.  I did have to take a course for my concealed carry, not ISPC, but my grip and squeeze were already textbook Jeff Cooper (thank you US Army).  No saucers, just double fisted cup.  But he had me adjust stance to feet under each shoulder which made a lot more sense for left and right response, and kept reminding me to bring my sights to my eyeline and not my eyes down to my sights.  Also to keep my right eye open for peripheral vision, as I tend to squint it because the double sights is pretty extreme for me.  A little tape on my protective eyewear at sightline on the right lens helped a lot.  

We didn't draw from holster, but my instructor did not like a shoulder holster for sweeping the left arm on draw.  I've never had this problem because if you are drawing, you aren't doing it casually with your left arm at your side.  You are dynamic, hunching shoulders forward to bring the holster toward the draw hand and forcing the weak arm up to be in position to grasp support and push forward.  It's likely with a close attack that the left hand is already up in defense and out of the way of the barrel line, and so it only sweeps your attacker when drawn.  Same with having your hands up at shoulder level if facing someone with a drawn firearm, if you step back with your right foot, the right hand can easily slip in out of sight and draw.  Even fired through the cover garment if needed for stealth.  I practiced this a lot after my instructors discussion and realized I still like the shoulder holster.  Really the concern for shoulder holster muzzle sweep is just a range thing, not a combat or defense concern.  I used my 6906 to qualify with a lighter wolf recoil spring.  I can hardly notice the muzzle climb between shots, it looks like the sights just stay on the target uninterrupted, so I can pop them one after the other in center torso at 5yd, 7yd, and 10yd.  115 grain FMJ 9mm with some weight to it makes all the difference (I have 150 grain HST JHP for short barrels in it otherwise).  

My instructor did have an issue with my collectable firearms in the class.  He said I should stop watching Miami Vice, he used to watch it too, but there was no way Crockett was making some of the shots he did.  I never actually watched it for combat or defensive training and understood it's fiction especially 3rd season on dive and shooting, so I thought he was out of line for him to comment on that.  But he was also wrong, there was a lot of accurate shooting technique for the time period.  Jim Zubiena did a good job with the actors on the show, and playing his assassin alter ego.  

My instructor said a proper self defense firearm should be drawn from an IWB holster, be a revolver, full steel frame (for control and clubbing), hammerless, DA only, at least a 2" barrel (longer preferable), and a caliber that you can control.  I have to agree with his reasoning, no hammer to keep it clean and from catching in clothing.  I did some research, and I don't know if he knows this, there is only one firearm that meats that criteria.....the S&W 640.  Only one barrel length just over 2", but a 3" probably could be swapped out.  It is a .357mag, so you can fire .38spec, +P or Magnum rounds depending on what you find you can handle, so good flexibility.  Any of those even in a 5 round limit should be man-stop if shot with accuracy.  And 5 is plenty for defense.  But for training a new shooter who may never have any knowledge on how a firearm works, the simplicity of a revolver makes sense.  His argument for DA-only to keep squeeze from round to round also makes sense for beginning shooters.  But if you have training already on the M1911A1 or M9, I really don't think it is that important.  Draw and DA squeeze is different enough from the SA followups.  I never had an issue with adjusting to it.  SA safety release on initial shot seems just as easy to adjust to SA followups.  But I guess I'm just used to it.  I have a problem with these 15 lb factory DA trigger pulls.  Really tough on accuracy.  A little gunsmithing and lighter spring on the hammer to get a 9 lb pull is way more reliable.  Still well above the minimum 5 lb pull they say you should have for SA, or the 4 lb pull that Jeff Cooper recommended.  In the future if I have someone I'm setting up for self defense (especially a much smaller lady), I will probably start them with a .22LR Ruger LCR, and move them up to the .38spec in the 640 if they can handle it, then they can move up +P or .357 Mag if they like.  Makes sense.

Yeah I need to get another mag for that very reason, that way I have two for range work, and two that are always loaded in the safe.and your not the only one whos said that too, a bunch of people on the smith forums had the same line of thought with it. most of them being reloaders and ex cops who would know.

its just that those two mags that I leave loaded are the newest ones, while the 4506 mag is kind of on the old side.

 

and A little tape on your protective eyeware, what you mean below your line of sight so you always had to bring your head up high? as with the indoor range I cant really do that, as I have to kind of aim lower than my line of sight, as its rigged up for the JR rifle team, and the whole place kind of throws you through a curve ball really.

as outside you can just throw some clay pigeons down to shoot at, so you can see the dirt impacts and where the bullets are going, but inside with paper targets, it gets abit tricky. and thus I go for smaller than average targets with an orange center target, that way I can see where the hits are at 25 yards.

 

and yeah that would explain why theirs been this kind of shift away from shoulder holsters in the line of duty, as if someones rushing you it would hinder you ability to pull, especially if its someone whos just starting up and doesnt know enough to pull back and keep moving. as that's the thing with the LEO world, you always have to think of the worst possible scenarios. hence why we went from solid steel guns to the lightest ones possible in a very short timespan. as if you look from the barney miller era it was all old J frames in a side or middle of the back holsters with him openly refusing to wear body armor in one of the episodes to full on light and tactical glocks just a few years latter

although I always thought, what about a pocket pistol on the belt, and a full size in the shoulder for that kind of reason really.

 

and yeah I think he might have been worried about the rolls Crockett always did, as that always kinda irked me lol

ala 1:51 there, as that is a live firearm after all lol and in the heat of a fire fight their's just so many ways that could go wrong, hell I still remember during the episode where Zito Died where he goes full on John woo and slides straight towards the bad guys with the 645 lol

 

ala 2:48 here

although a slide is still abit better than a combat roll lol

 

plus well it is the nature of trial and error really, hell I still remember the brass check they did in thief that was apparently a real thing they did back then, where you would stick your thumb into the trigger guard and then push the barrel back via the area where the guide rod was to see if its loaded.

but then you run the risk of an AD and having your hand around the muzzle of the firearm when it happens no less. and hence why i think when Heat came around, he went to great pains to show off that other technique, the pull back the slide a little one with Pachino. like he was fixing upon his old mistakes.

 

 

With the Hammer drawing thing, alot of guns were designed to have hammers that didnt catch, such as the Sig Sauer P232

https://www.instagram.com/p/5e1D1EBod5/

the walther PPK which came after the Walther PP, as it was requested as a detectives gun, hence why its frame was cut down a quarter of an inch, at 1:27

in addition to its cut down barrel, as that came out in 1932, while this was 29.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP#/media/File:1972_Walther_PP.jpg

and god I hope we can get rid of that stupid act too, as its like trying to find a Skyline, and just as expensive at this point.

and Tubbs Gun, the Model 49, so while his reasoning is sound truth of the matter is its all trial and error, and the main thing that would be a major issue is the sights, as the sights WOULD catch when pulling from the holster, hence why you see all of these ramp sights on the front, and a flat iron on the rear.

 

and it was a notable change on the smith and wessons of the era, where the cop guns would have sights like these, like on this model 15, which came about as a direct request from police departments to smith and wesson.

Smith & Wesson model 15-4 / 38 special

 

while targets these on the 14, also known as the K38 Target Masterpiece back in its day.

Smith&Wesson Model 14

and even now, the Novak sights are as low profile as you can get them without having them built into the slide. IE completely flat and smooth vs the raised billboard on these.

 

as you have 3 things you have to think about, the front sight, rear and the hammer, and these were outside on the hip guns, so it would only have to be the front that would have to be modded for that very reason,

plus the Model 36, the first J frame was modded into the model 49 as a direct request from the MA state police

plus the hammerless version of this, was Bonds Second Gun of Choice, that model 40, the non stainless version of it. but it quickly disapeared but ironically somewhat resurfaced as the gun that the bodyguard who guarded Princess anne switched to after that thing failed him back in 74' IE a model 36

although he wasnt known to take care of his guns, and if theirs one thing german guns do not like, its people not taking care of them, plus surplus .32 ammo isnt exactly the cleanest thing in the world, so I'd blame the guy not the gun on this one. plus, who knows how old those magazines were, and how badly treated they were.

as theirs just too many variables for it to be that simple

and as to how I know this, an ex leo on the smith forums bumped into the guy and gave him some hollowpoint ammo when he was over here on a Job lol, .38 special Plus + hollowpoints, and they never bring up if they even made .32 hollowpoint ammo back then either too, as their ball only guns, and if he used that like he was on the model 36,  well no wonder it happened that way. as ppk's do not like hollowpoint ammo.

 

and also with that 640, if its the one I'm thinking of, give it a wide berth and stick to the normal 38's, pinned barrels if you can, as the 640 titaniums have a mixture of an aluminum and titanium frame and do not run well with the advertised ammo, as its like a super version of the K frame problem.

http://www.gunblast.com/Butch_MagnumLoads.htm

as its just too much pressure on too small an area, and has gone through those things like a blowtorch through butter, however the staineless J frames for whatever reason have a reinforced forcing cone and actually do stay together, but that 640 titanium, because of the way its built does not work that way.

and even the .38 + p ruger LCR had the same issue, and roughly the same kind of construction problem. as the powdered injected molded metal just wouldnt handle it in such a short space and area, as its like adding nitro to a barely functional engine as it is.

as if you go above .32 and 9mm, best to stay as far away from aluminum and these mix match metal pieces as possible, and the only ones I would trust to do what they say on the tin can would be far above the entry prices that they offer for these things, as the only titanium framed gun that I would trust is actually that,  Strayer Voight Infinity TIKI that they only used for like 3 seconds in the miami vice movie, and on CSI of all things apparently.

as I think that blonde lady who's on that show conned them into giving her one for a few episodes lol

and I'd be lying if I didnt suspect the same issue to pop up with the 310 10mm night guards's they make nowadays, plus if normal .380 hollowpoint ammo is actually reaching the FBI standard of the post 1986 incident, well certainly some normal .38 special can do the same nowadays.

as its for that very reason that people are dropping the .40s and going back to 9mm's now.

 

and for a beginner, the key on a revolver would be if the trigger feels stagey, if it feels smooth throughout its easy to get used to it, as the GP100 Match has a trigger that well feels like one gentle pull, and the GP100 in general well, if I had to say what to begin with, it would be that. '

and I hate the Super redhawk, as it feels like a pully mechanism that needs some oil and 3 weeks with a competent smith to fix it, but the GP100, its like they built it back in the past.

plus their making a .22 version that I sadly cant get now, as that's the thing with a revolver, its either super easy with a SA pull if you cock the hammer, or very long to pull, and the key is to find one that's in the midpoint, which is something all post 1995 smith ones apparently werent good at

 

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Lifeguard
13 hours ago, Kavinsky said:

Yeah I need to get another mag for that very reason, that way I have two for range work, and two that are always loaded in the safe.and your not the only one whos said that too, a bunch of people on the smith forums had the same line of thought with it. most of them being reloaders and ex cops who would know.

its just that those two mags that I leave loaded are the newest ones, while the 4506 mag is kind of on the old side.

 

and A little tape on your protective eyeware, what you mean below your line of sight so you always had to bring your head up high? as with the indoor range I cant really do that, as I have to kind of aim lower than my line of sight, as its rigged up for the JR rifle team, and the whole place kind of throws you through a curve ball really.

as outside you can just throw some clay pigeons down to shoot at, so you can see the dirt impacts and where the bullets are going, but inside with paper targets, it gets abit tricky. and thus I go for smaller than average targets with an orange center target, that way I can see where the hits are at 25 yards.

 

and yeah that would explain why theirs been this kind of shift away from shoulder holsters in the line of duty, as if someones rushing you it would hinder you ability to pull, especially if its someone whos just starting up and doesnt know enough to pull back and keep moving. as that's the thing with the LEO world, you always have to think of the worst possible scenarios. hence why we went from solid steel guns to the lightest ones possible in a very short timespan. as if you look from the barney miller era it was all old J frames in a side or middle of the back holsters with him openly refusing to wear body armor in one of the episodes to full on light and tactical glocks just a few years latter

although I always thought, what about a pocket pistol on the belt, and a full size in the shoulder for that kind of reason really.

 

and yeah I think he might have been worried about the rolls Crockett always did, as that always kinda irked me lol

ala 1:51 there, as that is a live firearm after all lol and in the heat of a fire fight their's just so many ways that could go wrong, hell I still remember during the episode where Zito Died where he goes full on John woo and slides straight towards the bad guys with the 645 lol

 

ala 2:48 here

although a slide is still abit better than a combat roll lol

 

plus well it is the nature of trial and error really, hell I still remember the brass check they did in thief that was apparently a real thing they did back then, where you would stick your thumb into the trigger guard and then push the barrel back via the area where the guide rod was to see if its loaded.

but then you run the risk of an AD and having your hand around the muzzle of the firearm when it happens no less. and hence why i think when Heat came around, he went to great pains to show off that other technique, the pull back the slide a little one with Pachino. like he was fixing upon his old mistakes.

 

 

With the Hammer drawing thing, alot of guns were designed to have hammers that didnt catch, such as the Sig Sauer P232

https://www.instagram.com/p/5e1D1EBod5/

the walther PPK which came after the Walther PP, as it was requested as a detectives gun, hence why its frame was cut down a quarter of an inch, at 1:27

in addition to its cut down barrel, as that came out in 1932, while this was 29.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP#/media/File:1972_Walther_PP.jpg

and god I hope we can get rid of that stupid act too, as its like trying to find a Skyline, and just as expensive at this point.

and Tubbs Gun, the Model 49, so while his reasoning is sound truth of the matter is its all trial and error, and the main thing that would be a major issue is the sights, as the sights WOULD catch when pulling from the holster, hence why you see all of these ramp sights on the front, and a flat iron on the rear.

 

and it was a notable change on the smith and wessons of the era, where the cop guns would have sights like these, like on this model 15, which came about as a direct request from police departments to smith and wesson.

 

 

while targets these on the 14, also known as the K38 Target Masterpiece back in its day.

 

and even now, the Novak sights are as low profile as you can get them without having them built into the slide. IE completely flat and smooth vs the raised billboard on these.

 

as you have 3 things you have to think about, the front sight, rear and the hammer, and these were outside on the hip guns, so it would only have to be the front that would have to be modded for that very reason,

plus the Model 36, the first J frame was modded into the model 49 as a direct request from the MA state police

plus the hammerless version of this, was Bonds Second Gun of Choice, that model 40, the non stainless version of it. but it quickly disapeared but ironically somewhat resurfaced as the gun that the bodyguard who guarded Princess anne switched to after that thing failed him back in 74' IE a model 36

although he wasnt known to take care of his guns, and if theirs one thing german guns do not like, its people not taking care of them, plus surplus .32 ammo isnt exactly the cleanest thing in the world, so I'd blame the guy not the gun on this one. plus, who knows how old those magazines were, and how badly treated they were.

as theirs just too many variables for it to be that simple

and as to how I know this, an ex leo on the smith forums bumped into the guy and gave him some hollowpoint ammo when he was over here on a Job lol, .38 special Plus + hollowpoints, and they never bring up if they even made .32 hollowpoint ammo back then either too, as their ball only guns, and if he used that like he was on the model 36,  well no wonder it happened that way. as ppk's do not like hollowpoint ammo.

 

and also with that 640, if its the one I'm thinking of, give it a wide berth and stick to the normal 38's, pinned barrels if you can, as the 640 titaniums have a mixture of an aluminum and titanium frame and do not run well with the advertised ammo, as its like a super version of the K frame problem.

as its just too much pressure on too small an area, and has gone through those things like a blowtorch through butter, however the staineless J frames for whatever reason have a reinforced forcing cone and actually do stay together, but that 640 titanium, because of the way its built does not work that way.

and even the .38 + p ruger LCR had the same issue, and roughly the same kind of construction problem. as the powdered injected molded metal just wouldnt handle it in such a short space and area, as its like adding nitro to a barely functional engine as it is.

as if you go above .32 and 9mm, best to stay as far away from aluminum and these mix match metal pieces as possible, and the only ones I would trust to do what they say on the tin can would be far above the entry prices that they offer for these things, as the only titanium framed gun that I would trust is actually that,  Strayer Voight Infinity TIKI that they only used for like 3 seconds in the miami vice movie, and on CSI of all things apparently.

as I think that blonde lady who's on that show conned them into giving her one for a few episodes lol

and I'd be lying if I didnt suspect the same issue to pop up with the 310 10mm night guards's they make nowadays, plus if normal .380 hollowpoint ammo is actually reaching the FBI standard of the post 1986 incident, well certainly some normal .38 special can do the same nowadays.

as its for that very reason that people are dropping the .40s and going back to 9mm's now.

 

and for a beginner, the key on a revolver would be if the trigger feels stagey, if it feels smooth throughout its easy to get used to it, as the GP100 Match has a trigger that well feels like one gentle pull, and the GP100 in general well, if I had to say what to begin with, it would be that. '

and I hate the Super redhawk, as it feels like a pully mechanism that needs some oil and 3 weeks with a competent smith to fix it, but the GP100, its like they built it back in the past.

plus their making a .22 version that I sadly cant get now, as that's the thing with a revolver, its either super easy with a SA pull if you cock the hammer, or very long to pull, and the key is to find one that's in the midpoint, which is something all post 1995 smith ones apparently werent good at

 

 

No, the semi-translucent scotch tape goes on the top portion of the lens on the eye you don't want to aim with.  The bottom of the tape is at a level so with you head up and sights at eye level, you can't seen anything through that eye above the slide.  So you don't have to close or squint that eye to aim with the dominant eye.  It helps to train you on focusing with one eye while keeping the other open.  For me, my dominant eye is my left, but there is a bad alignment between the two as to make it impossible to focus on the fore-sight with both eyes open.  This interferes with my right peripheral vision unless I can train my brain to ignore the right eye for aiming but keep it open.

He was teaching civilian concealed carry, and not law enforcement.  So his concentration was on drawing from deep concealment.  An IWB holster under a loose shirt, or from a pocket holster.  And also being able to fire a handgun from inside a pocket, which makes hammers, sights, and slides a hindrance.  Manufacturers really don't design for that type of defensive shooting.  To meet his all steel suggestion, hammerless (with no opening to collect dirt), low profile sights, revolver, DA only, at least 2" barrel......there is only one concealed defensive firearm the S&W 640.  I don't think he actually looked for any firearms to fit that bill, just listed off features and why they would be advantageous.  

Obviously buying the performance center version, or having a gunsmith work on it to get the reliable trigger pull preferred.  My 645s and 6906 were not the smoothest action.  Polishing up the draw bar and other parts, along with a coat of oil while disassembled; worked with the reduced main/hammer-spring to make the DA pull smooth and lighter.  From the factory it was just too gritty and too much weight.

He made the argument that your trigger pull needs to be the same each pull for consistency and safety for new shooters.  Which eliminates DA/SA.  SA only would work, but you have to have an exposed hammer which could catch on clothing, or end up with cloth caught between it and the firing pin leaving you with you handgun stuck on your shirt or jacket.  Striker fire still uses a slide which can catch clothing and jam.  So DA-only is the only action that fits that bill.  So a person who has trained on that trigger pull from the start will have simplicity of training and muscle memory.  Makes sense.  For me, I'm just used to SA-only and DA/SA, so it would be backwards training from complicated to simplified skills.  And I'm not interested in deep concealment, just a jacket over a full size frame is fine for me.   

Well, refusing to wear body armor makes sense for a similar reason why some fire fighters argue that encapsulating can lead to more deaths.  Putting a fire fighter in full suit of protective gear, with nomex hood and SCBA protects the individual from the hazards.  But it insulates them from feeling when the interior has passed a safe level, which may result in fire fighters remaining where they shouldn't.  The protection can lead to confidence that would put the individual into a situation they would have avoided without it.  The body armor may protect them more, but may make them step into situations they would not have before.  Plus, you can tell when someone has body armor on, the barrel chest is a dead giveaway.  And so if someone wants to kill a cop, they would not stop at the chest shot......just use it to slow them down to follow up with an aimed head shot.  That's less survivable than if the bad guy just put one or two into the chest and ignored the head shot.  So there is a logic to it.

Dives?  Combat rolls?  I trained for actual combat......we didn't do any of that.  None of this tactical reloads either.  You fire to suppress and take cover.  You reload under cover, while the rest of the fireteam is stilling firing to suppress.  One team or squad maneuvers to position while the other fires for suppression.  When you move you say to yourself "I'm up....he sees me....I'm down."  That's how you move, up, down, up again.  Don't allow a bead on you.  With the support fire keeping the enemy down it makes it easier.  When you maneuver to contact, the goal is not really to kill the enemy (that's nice but unlikely) but to route them.  Force them from their position into withdrawal or to surrender. Average rifleman carries 210 rounds as a basic load, and given shot to hit ratios in combat only 3 or 4 of those rounds will actually hit someone.  The rest are just for making the enemy put his head down. 

What was the other thing.......oh the press check or brass check.  Yeah, you don't want to press the slide from the end, that's dumb.  I don't really see the need for it as I always chamber a round when inserting a mag so I never have to second guess.  With the DA/SA 645s, I can pull the hammer back, then pull the slide back slightly to confirm if there is brass, snap cap, or an empty chamber.  If you leave the hammer down and try to press check, you have to press hard to fight the slide return spring and the main/hammer spring.  You usually end up with a sudden release of the hammer and jamming the round in place when you do that.  That makes the 6906 tough because of the bobbed hammer.  You have to fight the hammer to slide it a little ways back, or pull the trigger and catch the hammer with your thumb to cock it which might result in an AD.  Neither method is great.  Better to just remove the mag, slide the action and see if a round comes out.  Put it in the mag, insert the mag and load it into battery.

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Kavinsky

I must appologize again for being late as hell here, but Trying to get the 4006 working is turning out to be a nightmare, and my K22 locks up when it gets warm and heated, like 200 rounds in on my average shooting session, as I bring like a large box of .22 and just go crazy. which means I dont know what is wrong with it. so I'm kind of stuck on mending those at the moment.

so its like okay 1 down, 3 to go on that front, and while I have no attachment to the 4006, that one I do as its got history and I'm not sure what to do with it.

and I can see where he's coming from with the single trigger pull, as when I shoot DA/SA I always make a point to decock the gun before firing so I have to fire it first DA, and I do get throw off by it.

and it just that vice was known for sometimes showing off the combat rolls, as theirs actually a live fire video of a guy with a detonics combat master Mimicing Don's exact movements in the face to face video on youtube lol and just seeing someone do something that blindly Dangerous in ones mind sticks with you lol like you just half expect it to show up on some 90's special about accidents like that happening.

 

with the brass check, with the hammer back thing, I gotta say if you had already decocked the pistol and put it in DA mode, their is a potental for a slip there if you go to cock it just to do a brass check. hence why don put his thumb infront of the hammer when checking over the bren ten for the first time.

and also with the 6906, ruger is actually making something that looks damn close to it now, I think its the compact 9mm version of the american pistol, as I took one look at it and its like wait a minute, that looks like a damn near clone of it just using polymer inplace of the aluminum they used back then.

 

oh and also I did take your advice on the 645 mags, I bought two new 4506's mags for it, plus when you lay off the trigger when practicing with it I can see where it does feel a little rough, which makes me wonder if some simple copper grease would really help the trigger pull.

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Lifeguard
On 3/4/2017 at 8:01 AM, Kavinsky said:

I must appologize again for being late as hell here, but Trying to get the 4006 working is turning out to be a nightmare, and my K22 locks up when it gets warm and heated, like 200 rounds in on my average shooting session, as I bring like a large box of .22 and just go crazy. which means I dont know what is wrong with it. so I'm kind of stuck on mending those at the moment.

so its like okay 1 down, 3 to go on that front, and while I have no attachment to the 4006, that one I do as its got history and I'm not sure what to do with it.

and I can see where he's coming from with the single trigger pull, as when I shoot DA/SA I always make a point to decock the gun before firing so I have to fire it first DA, and I do get throw off by it.

and it just that vice was known for sometimes showing off the combat rolls, as theirs actually a live fire video of a guy with a detonics combat master Mimicing Don's exact movements in the face to face video on youtube lol and just seeing someone do something that blindly Dangerous in ones mind sticks with you lol like you just half expect it to show up on some 90's special about accidents like that happening.

 

with the brass check, with the hammer back thing, I gotta say if you had already decocked the pistol and put it in DA mode, their is a potental for a slip there if you go to cock it just to do a brass check. hence why don put his thumb infront of the hammer when checking over the bren ten for the first time.

and also with the 6906, ruger is actually making something that looks damn close to it now, I think its the compact 9mm version of the american pistol, as I took one look at it and its like wait a minute, that looks like a damn near clone of it just using polymer inplace of the aluminum they used back then.

 

oh and also I did take your advice on the 645 mags, I bought two new 4506's mags for it, plus when you lay off the trigger when practicing with it I can see where it does feel a little rough, which makes me wonder if some simple copper grease would really help the trigger pull.

Strange, my alert never signaled that you replied to my post.  Weird.

Yeah, my original instinct when I first started to carry the 645-INT, 645-early, or 6906-early was to have a round in the chamber with de-cocker on safety, then return the de-cocker up with my thumb and hammer down with it.  But then I polished the slide bar, various small part contact faces, put a lighter spring on the hammer; and the DA smoothed out nicely.  I can pull it back smoothly with one motion and keep the front site fixed, even on the lightweight 6906-early.  

Brass check on a S&W DA/SA before holstering seems pretty dicey.  It is really hard to pull the slide back; fighting the hammer at rest, hammer spring, and slide spring; to move it far enough back to visually check for brass (or nickel plated casing) and avoid pushing it to the point the hammer moves under the slide and you end up jamming the round in the ejector port.  It's a real fine line between the slide open enough to see, and jerk past where the hammer releases it's tension on it.  I'd say it's safer and reliable to pull the hammer back with de-cocker down and thumb holding the hammer open while pushing the slide enough to see then letting the hammer go to rest before taking the de-cocker off.  Or just always chamber a round when you insert a mag and then you never have to wonder.  Just for shits and giggles I put a mag of snap caps in and with hammer back racked the slide continuously until emptying the mag 3 times......never had the hammer fall on the firing pin.  The snap caps tend to want to jamb when riding the feeding tray more than FMJ or JHP (which have yet to jamb on the range).  

Now the brass check in S1-Ep2 Heart of Darkness during the Devo montage, has never looked like a brass check to me.  It's the Bren Ten, so it functions different from the S&Ws as it can operate DA/SA or as a SA-only.  Crockett appears to carry it in DA/SA.  In the montage the Bren is sitting with slide closed and full mag next to it, then it is picked up (not sure if they are DJ's hands for this), the mag holes are checked to verify it is full (on the left .45 side of it no less, then again it obviously has dummy Hollywood .45 ammo in it as it is signal stacked with no copper jacket or hollow point), then the mag slide into place.  Left hand placed on slide reversed so thumbs are lined up on the same side of the Bren for the slide to be racked.  Now there are two things that could be going on here, as there is a firing pin lock button that his thumb could be pressing to prevent an ND if the hammer releases (I'm not sure which way you push this lock for it to secure the firing pin?).  His hand is covering the slide so it is hard to see, but it seems he is chambering a round here, not checking brass, which makes sense since he just put a fresh mag in.  He then places his left thumb in front of the hammer, and there is a click like the hammer is released slowly (obviously this is likely a foley sound effect, so creative license) but it cuts away right there.  Using his offside thumb to block the hammer suggests that he does not have the firing pin lock set and is returning the action to DA/SA before holstering.  Neither the Ted Blocker Lifeline or Galco 114 were SA holsters, as their thumb break strap would not fit around with the hammer back, so it does not appear he was engaging the thumb safety for SA.  

Weird that the guy was using the Detonics to replicate Crockett's "therapy session" Pete Townsend montage, since he was using the Bren Ten for it.  Guess he couldn't find a Bren, only a Detonics.  I watched the roll again carefully, that's definitely DJ doing it.  Those are blank rounds, but still dangerous especially that close to his head.  It is quick, but there is a cut.  He fires 3 rounds, then turns to roll on his back.  There's a cut there and the next shot picks up with him rolling over on his back and up on his knee and fires 4 more rounds.  His slide does not lock open after the first 3 rounds, so when he goes to roll, it seems he has a live blank in the chamber but it could also be a snap-cap.  Given the cut, for safety they may not have had him do the full roll with live blanks.  Instead having him start the roll with maybe a snap-cap in the chamber.  Then starting on his back with at least 4 live blanks in chamber and mag, he rolled to his foot and knee and fired them off.  It's so quick i never thought about it before, but that was an extremely dangerous move even with blanks.  It's hard to believe the on-set firearms safety officer would have allowed that, but then again it was the '80s.  If he did himself, or even half did it, that is definite bad-ass points for DJ there.  Oh shit, I didn't even notice the switch after he rolls.  When DJ comes up, he switches hand with Bren to his left for firing around the corner on his left side.  I had noticed him using this technique off hand technique for shooting behind a corner to the left in Heart of Darkness, and he is using it here so naturally that it seems effortless.  Good technique.

Glad my advice helped you on the mags, but can't really remember what that was in response to?  I don't use grease myself, just gun oil or the same 5W30 I use on my Camaro.  All of my S&Ws have been stripped down to bare frames for parts polishing and spring changes (hammer, recoil, firing pin), then reassembled with oil.  I will likely do the same with a full clean and oil again in a few months.  The enemies of a smooth even DA trigger pull are the heavy factory hammer spring, the rough unfinished side surfaces of the draw bar, dry surfaces on the draw bar, a dry trigger and hammer springs.   Grease may cover up the poor finish on the draw bar sides, but if you have the draw bar out anyway to either grease or oil it, you might as well polish the sides of it then.  I should probably do a video one of these days showing the action on my 645s and 6906, and tips on how I handle them.  Also the factory S&W frame and trigger are perfectly sized to fit each other with no side to side play, so trigger pin shims for the sides are unnecessary.

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Kavinsky
On 4/28/2017 at 2:21 AM, Lifeguard said:

Strange, my alert never signaled that you replied to my post.  Weird.

Yeah, my original instinct when I first started to carry the 645-INT, 645-early, or 6906-early was to have a round in the chamber with de-cocker on safety, then return the de-cocker up with my thumb and hammer down with it.  But then I polished the slide bar, various small part contact faces, put a lighter spring on the hammer; and the DA smoothed out nicely.  I can pull it back smoothly with one motion and keep the front site fixed, even on the lightweight 6906-early.  

Brass check on a S&W DA/SA before holstering seems pretty dicey.  It is really hard to pull the slide back; fighting the hammer at rest, hammer spring, and slide spring; to move it far enough back to visually check for brass (or nickel plated casing) and avoid pushing it to the point the hammer moves under the slide and you end up jamming the round in the ejector port.  It's a real fine line between the slide open enough to see, and jerk past where the hammer releases it's tension on it.  I'd say it's safer and reliable to pull the hammer back with de-cocker down and thumb holding the hammer open while pushing the slide enough to see then letting the hammer go to rest before taking the de-cocker off.  Or just always chamber a round when you insert a mag and then you never have to wonder.  Just for shits and giggles I put a mag of snap caps in and with hammer back racked the slide continuously until emptying the mag 3 times......never had the hammer fall on the firing pin.  The snap caps tend to want to jamb when riding the feeding tray more than FMJ or JHP (which have yet to jamb on the range).  

Now the brass check in S1-Ep2 Heart of Darkness during the Devo montage, has never looked like a brass check to me.  It's the Bren Ten, so it functions different from the S&Ws as it can operate DA/SA or as a SA-only.  Crockett appears to carry it in DA/SA.  In the montage the Bren is sitting with slide closed and full mag next to it, then it is picked up (not sure if they are DJ's hands for this), the mag holes are checked to verify it is full (on the left .45 side of it no less, then again it obviously has dummy Hollywood .45 ammo in it as it is signal stacked with no copper jacket or hollow point), then the mag slide into place.  Left hand placed on slide reversed so thumbs are lined up on the same side of the Bren for the slide to be racked.  Now there are two things that could be going on here, as there is a firing pin lock button that his thumb could be pressing to prevent an ND if the hammer releases (I'm not sure which way you push this lock for it to secure the firing pin?).  His hand is covering the slide so it is hard to see, but it seems he is chambering a round here, not checking brass, which makes sense since he just put a fresh mag in.  He then places his left thumb in front of the hammer, and there is a click like the hammer is released slowly (obviously this is likely a foley sound effect, so creative license) but it cuts away right there.  Using his offside thumb to block the hammer suggests that he does not have the firing pin lock set and is returning the action to DA/SA before holstering.  Neither the Ted Blocker Lifeline or Galco 114 were SA holsters, as their thumb break strap would not fit around with the hammer back, so it does not appear he was engaging the thumb safety for SA.  

Weird that the guy was using the Detonics to replicate Crockett's "therapy session" Pete Townsend montage, since he was using the Bren Ten for it.  Guess he couldn't find a Bren, only a Detonics.  I watched the roll again carefully, that's definitely DJ doing it.  Those are blank rounds, but still dangerous especially that close to his head.  It is quick, but there is a cut.  He fires 3 rounds, then turns to roll on his back.  There's a cut there and the next shot picks up with him rolling over on his back and up on his knee and fires 4 more rounds.  His slide does not lock open after the first 3 rounds, so when he goes to roll, it seems he has a live blank in the chamber but it could also be a snap-cap.  Given the cut, for safety they may not have had him do the full roll with live blanks.  Instead having him start the roll with maybe a snap-cap in the chamber.  Then starting on his back with at least 4 live blanks in chamber and mag, he rolled to his foot and knee and fired them off.  It's so quick i never thought about it before, but that was an extremely dangerous move even with blanks.  It's hard to believe the on-set firearms safety officer would have allowed that, but then again it was the '80s.  If he did himself, or even half did it, that is definite bad-ass points for DJ there.  Oh shit, I didn't even notice the switch after he rolls.  When DJ comes up, he switches hand with Bren to his left for firing around the corner on his left side.  I had noticed him using this technique off hand technique for shooting behind a corner to the left in Heart of Darkness, and he is using it here so naturally that it seems effortless.  Good technique.

Glad my advice helped you on the mags, but can't really remember what that was in response to?  I don't use grease myself, just gun oil or the same 5W30 I use on my Camaro.  All of my S&Ws have been stripped down to bare frames for parts polishing and spring changes (hammer, recoil, firing pin), then reassembled with oil.  I will likely do the same with a full clean and oil again in a few months.  The enemies of a smooth even DA trigger pull are the heavy factory hammer spring, the rough unfinished side surfaces of the draw bar, dry surfaces on the draw bar, a dry trigger and hammer springs.   Grease may cover up the poor finish on the draw bar sides, but if you have the draw bar out anyway to either grease or oil it, you might as well polish the sides of it then.  I should probably do a video one of these days showing the action on my 645s and 6906, and tips on how I handle them.  Also the factory S&W frame and trigger are perfectly sized to fit each other with no side to side play, so trigger pin shims for the sides are unnecessary.

I think with the advice it was more an implied advice that I should go for the latter 4506 mags rather than the 645's just so I dont run the risk of having the baseplate come undone on me like you decribed, and I think I figured out what was causing the issue with the 4006.

turns out they, or rather mine doesnt like wolf gunsprings for whatever reason, as no matter the weight I chose it would always jam up once every box, sometimes 3. and after doing a straight switch out for the one I bought out of the brownells catalog, it worked fine for an entire box, which was a drastic improvement over what it was.

and I havent tested it further, I was just glad to get that far with it, and it seems like I'm gradually working my way through everything in the collection.

 

with the brass check your right, you could just do it that way with the safety on, and the way it works on the bren ten with its cross pin is that you push it to either side, and if it sticks out the block is on,  and now you see what I ment about the roll there lol but with the trigger shim thing on the 645, one of the things is that the model 39, the father of the 645. went through a bunch of changes in its history, as the extract was changed for a reason in the latter ones to a far less prone to break version. 

which might explain the trigger shim on the side, as maybe something came up in development that caused them to do that? as the gun did serve in the military to a limited extent as a Navy Seal gun, plus the countless variants they made of the thing. as what's the most key thing about a military firearm, it needs to have redundant parts on it that keep it working even if something breaks on it.

which is why for years they refused to switch off of the M1911, especially after that debacle with the M16. which simplified and lightened a gun as much as it could, with no thought given to its reliability out in the field, as it was never ment to see field work. it was ment purely as an airfield's guard gun to replace the M1 Carbine with something with a longer range and the same general portability.

and well given the airforces history with the model 12 alloy framed J frame, you can see where and why in the field this went terribly wrong

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_12

as it was basically like build a rifle like this for limited use, next thing you know they adopt it full scale, and hell if it wasnt for the cheapness of the round, I bet the M16 would have been just as much a footnote of history as that thing was.

plus it could just be a reinforcement pin first and foremost, like they did on the post war alloy framed models of the walther P1 in the 70's to help curve frame cracking, as the model 39 ran with an alloy frame for most of its life, and given 9mm nato ammo and the model 59's limited navy seal use around the same time, maybe they thought it would be best to keep this design feature in just in-case the gun saw military adoption?

as the model 39 was designed a military firearm first and foremost in the first place, as a reaction to the need for a post war firearm with the same features as the german guns they brought back from the war, as it was all Single action SA Semi's and DA Revolvers at the time, and that feature is shown here on one of the first versions as well

800px-Smith_and_Wesson_model_39_IMG_3279

and you can tell its a steel frame based on the depth of the bluing, as it looks like a paint on job with the alloys, also note the military style rear sight, as its only good up till 7 yards like most military firearms without a rear sight change. the P38 being a rare exception actually.

but anyways onto a different matter, with the polishing try and use some very fine steel wool, like the 400 stuff, as I've started using that on the physical triggers themselves to rub off the sharp edges that are frequently left on through negligence a lack of polishing so the gun doesnt cut up my hand or cut a groove into my finger

as that's the one thing stainless steel doesnt have going for it, It always needs post construction polishing work, and it seems like ruger in particular seems to think that just because its stainless, it doesnt need a polisher to go over it after their done.

as I picked up a Valquero, a brand new one to see how it felt at a gunshop, as I have a distinct love of the colt single action army and the thing felt like a half finished product with no polishing to any of the internal parts, as everything was binding or rough feeling in the thing, like by the by, the thing was a piece of junk.

and it seems to be a curse with stainless guns by them, as I have never picked up a stainless gun by them that didnt need some form of work to it, no matter how high end it was supposed to be.

Edited by Kavinsky
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Lifeguard
On 5/15/2017 at 5:01 AM, Kavinsky said:

I think with the advice it was more an implied advice that I should go for the latter 4506 mags rather than the 645's just so I dont run the risk of having the baseplate come undone on me like you decribed, and I think I figured out what was causing the issue with the 4006.

turns out they, or rather mine doesnt like wolf gunsprings for whatever reason, as no matter the weight I chose it would always jam up once every box, sometimes 3. and after doing a straight switch out for the one I bought out of the brownells catalog, it worked fine for an entire box, which was a drastic improvement over what it was.

and I havent tested it further, I was just glad to get that far with it, and it seems like I'm gradually working my way through everything in the collection.

 

with the brass check your right, you could just do it that way with the safety on, and the way it works on the bren ten with its cross pin is that you push it to either side, and if it sticks out the block is on,  and now you see what I ment about the roll there lol but with the trigger shim thing on the 645, one of the things is that the model 39, the father of the 645. went through a bunch of changes in its history, as the extract was changed for a reason in the latter ones to a far less prone to break version. 

which might explain the trigger shim on the side, as maybe something came up in development that caused them to do that? as the gun did serve in the military to a limited extent as a Navy Seal gun, plus the countless variants they made of the thing. as what's the most key thing about a military firearm, it needs to have redundant parts on it that keep it working even if something breaks on it.

which is why for years they refused to switch off of the M1911, especially after that debacle with the M16. which simplified and lightened a gun as much as it could, with no thought given to its reliability out in the field, as it was never ment to see field work. it was ment purely as an airfield's guard gun to replace the M1 Carbine with something with a longer range and the same general portability.

and well given the airforces history with the model 12 alloy framed J frame, you can see where and why in the field this went terribly wrong

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_12

as it was basically like build a rifle like this for limited use, next thing you know they adopt it full scale, and hell if it wasnt for the cheapness of the round, I bet the M16 would have been just as much a footnote of history as that thing was.

plus it could just be a reinforcement pin first and foremost, like they did on the post war alloy framed models of the walther P1 in the 70's to help curve frame cracking, as the model 39 ran with an alloy frame for most of its life, and given 9mm nato ammo and the model 59's limited navy seal use around the same time, maybe they thought it would be best to keep this design feature in just in-case the gun saw military adoption?

as the model 39 was designed a military firearm first and foremost in the first place, as a reaction to the need for a post war firearm with the same features as the german guns they brought back from the war, as it was all Single action SA Semi's and DA Revolvers at the time, and that feature is shown here on one of the first versions as well

 

and you can tell its a steel frame based on the depth of the bluing, as it looks like a paint on job with the alloys, also note the military style rear sight, as its only good up till 7 yards like most military firearms without a rear sight change. the P38 being a rare exception actually.

but anyways onto a different matter, with the polishing try and use some very fine steel wool, like the 400 stuff, as I've started using that on the physical triggers themselves to rub off the sharp edges that are frequently left on through negligence a lack of polishing so the gun doesnt cut up my hand or cut a groove into my finger

as that's the one thing stainless steel doesnt have going for it, It always needs post construction polishing work, and it seems like ruger in particular seems to think that just because its stainless, it doesnt need a polisher to go over it after their done.

as I picked up a Valquero, a brand new one to see how it felt at a gunshop, as I have a distinct love of the colt single action army and the thing felt like a half finished product with no polishing to any of the internal parts, as everything was binding or rough feeling in the thing, like by the by, the thing was a piece of junk.

and it seems to be a curse with stainless guns by them, as I have never picked up a stainless gun by them that didnt need some form of work to it, no matter how high end it was supposed to be.

Hey, it alerted me this time.

Ah, I have not used Wolf springs in my mags, only as replacement springs in my handguns, or upgrades on the recoil/firing-pin and hammer springs.  If it comes time to replace mag springs for reliability, I may order a few brands and do a comparison to find out which works best.  

Caused S&W to make sure the trigger and frame fit together without and side to side play?  I'm not sure why that would not be the goal of any firearm manufacturer?

Oh, so the Bren pin block works in either direction.  Didn't expect that.  Adds an extra step if you go to fire the Bren and get nothing......check pin block button one way, then the other, then check to make sure there is a round in battery, then manual cycle a new round in.

I only ever have extraction and ejection issues with the aluminum snap caps when practicing.  The Federal HST JHPs and FMJs feed through with no issues so far.

Are you saying the 645 was a SEAL gun too, or just the 59?  

Oh, I just used the polishing stones on my Dremel.  Smoothed the sharp parts in seconds.  But I polished using fine grit sand paper.  The sharp parts were all on the parts of the frame that were bead blast finish from the factory, so it didn't need to be polished to match the factory finish.  The 645-INT (4506) is better finished than the 645-early, but they are still good guns in their factory state, just a little attention here and there to perfect them.  Good engineering.

 

Edited by Lifeguard

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Kavinsky
On 5/15/2017 at 11:04 PM, Lifeguard said:

Hey, it alerted me this time.

Ah, I have not used Wolf springs in my mags, only as replacement springs in my handguns, or upgrades on the recoil/firing-pin and hammer springs.  If it comes time to replace mag springs for reliability, I may order a few brands and do a comparison to find out which works best.  

Caused S&W to make sure the trigger and frame fit together without and side to side play?  I'm not sure why that would not be the goal of any firearm manufacturer?

Oh, so the Bren pin block works in either direction.  Didn't expect that.  Adds an extra step if you go to fire the Bren and get nothing......check pin block button one way, then the other, then check to make sure there is a round in battery, then manual cycle a new round in.

I only ever have extraction and ejection issues with the aluminum snap caps when practicing.  The Federal HST JHPs and FMJs feed through with no issues so far.

Are you saying the 645 was a SEAL gun too, or just the 59?  

Oh, I just used the polishing stones on my Dremel.  Smoothed the sharp parts in seconds.  But I polished using fine grit sand paper.  The sharp parts were all on the parts of the frame that were bead blast finish from the factory, so it didn't need to be polished to match the factory finish.  The 645-INT (4506) is better finished than the 645-early, but they are still good guns in their factory state, just a little attention here and there to perfect them.  Good engineering.

 

The hex pin was ment I guess to act as a shock absorber maybe, its funny I never actually asked anyone what it specifically does lol I just know it was put in to strengthen the frame for the stresses of firing nato ammo and ammo in general regularly, as their had been a rather steep design change with it by making it alloy post war.

for what reason other than to make it easier to carry I dont know, but some really early 50's ones were steel, and I've personally had two slides break on me with the WW2 gun, in the same spot, turns out that in WW2 they didnt mark their machine gun ammo, and it blew the crap out of the guns, hence why some of these guns are now finally just coming apart.

 

plus the CYQ guns, the 44 like mine, has a completely different dimension to it with its side vs the Walther and Mauser guns, so its all over the place

 

and while this is rough, it gives a good primer into its design and its changes.

 

and how the gun came into play here

also look at the craftsmanship on the one at 2:45, jesus christ and that on a PROTOTYPE no less lol although I think the extractor is off of a Mauser Rifle, just with a little cold blue put on it, or whatever the equavalent of it was back in the day, but hey if it works it works lol

but I think that that pin on the Model 39 may actually be their version of it, as their was a mention of the early model 39's, the first alloy framed ones having the same issue, plus the model 39 had a redesign of its extractor which will break on you sometimes, hence why if you go for one, you go for a 39 -2 and the 52 - 2, as those parts are becoming increasing hard to find. 

which is two things I hope 3D printing fixes

 

just the 59 was the seal gun, although the 645 did have some real world use as a cop gun, along with the model 39, and probably the 639 by extention.

and yeah I gotta admit I kinda wished I had gone for the 4506 over the 645, as I like the general shape of it better, but at the time I didnt know what the story was with the third gen's spring system, that cup, and metal pin thing on the grip, so I decided to keep it as conventonal as possible, and she still shoots great but I kinda wanna replace the red insert on the front sight with a black one like Crockett had, as that bugs me more than I thought lol

Edited by Kavinsky

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Lifeguard
22 hours ago, Kavinsky said:

and yeah I gotta admit I kinda wished I had gone for the 4506 over the 645, as I like the general shape of it better, but at the time I didnt know what the story was with the third gen's spring system, that cup, and metal pin thing on the grip, so I decided to keep it as conventonal as possible, and she still shoots great but I kinda wanna replace the red insert on the front sight with a black one like Crockett had, as that bugs me more than I thought lol

The only way I see getting a black front sight is to color the orange one black, or create a pattern to use a 3D printer to make some.  I have looked on the revolver replacement sights for the blade, and have not found anyone who carries back stock of the black ones.  It also makes it a little for low light sighting tho.  

I really should create a video showing the 645-int, 645-early, and 6906-early when I get an HD camera.  Show the slide action, disassembly, features unique to Crockett's sidearm, and modifications i have made to them.  Maybe try to record how they really sound in comparison with TV sound.  

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