Episode #23 "The Prodigal Son"


Ferrariman

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3 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Actually when you see the reference to the prodigal son returning the connotations are not always positive. This is especially true when you see it in Westerns, and American police shows are in many ways linked to Westerns and continuations of some of those themes. You could almost take Tubbs' return to New York as the gunslinging son/brother returning to the place of his youth and leaving his mark.

The pilot was originally called Miami Vice (per Yerkovich's draft script), but the title Brother's Keeper has a number of levels that, I think, work. Both Sonny and Rico failed as keepers of their brothers (Rico for his literal brother and Sonny for his figurative brother in Eddie and failed in turn by another figurative brother in Wheeler), but in the end they have to keep each other when they become partners.

I don't consider either title a stretch, honestly. I think they're just a reminder of the various levels of Vice.

Oops. New page. Should’ve quoted in my post above. 

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5 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Actually when you see the reference to the prodigal son returning the connotations are not always positive. This is especially true when you see it in Westerns, and American police shows are in many ways linked to Westerns and continuations of some of those themes. You could almost take Tubbs' return to New York as the gunslinging son/brother returning to the place of his youth and leaving his mark.

The pilot was originally called Miami Vice (per Yerkovich's draft script), but the title Brother's Keeper has a number of levels that, I think, work. Both Sonny and Rico failed as keepers of their brothers (Rico for his literal brother and Sonny for his figurative brother in Eddie and failed in turn by another figurative brother in Wheeler), but in the end they have to keep each other when they become partners.

I don't consider either title a stretch, honestly. I think they're just a reminder of the various levels of Vice.

I agree that sometimes the ‘prodigal son’ reference has been used in westerns or perhaps police shows...although the ‘negative’ connotations themselves, regardless of the show or genre, are not necessarily true to the origin of the original story. However, with this episode of MV I never got a “western” vibe, and the way they handled it, it seemed like Tubbs had never been there or left any mark...he seemed almost as much a tourist as Crockett. The title just seems odd for what they did with the episode.

Yeah, the original title for the Pilot was just “Miami Vice” to introduce the show...I think the “Brother’s Keeper” thing was created later for syndication & reruns, when it was split into 2 parts (and they needed a name for each part). Although the title again doesn’t really stay true to the original event the ‘saying’ comes from, it does make more sense in a way with Tubbs trying to avenge his brother’s death. I don’t know if Crockett & Eddie were also considered tied into that title...but I guess they could if the viewer chooses to look at it that way. :thumbsup:

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  • 4 months later...

Rewatched this one earlier and was thinking the whole time how it would've been cool if they added Pam Grier to the main cast in S2. It would've allowed us to see more of Tubbs personal life and then they could've killed her off in Sons and Lovers instead of Angelina.

I guess they didn't want another woman regular on the show or Tubbs to be in a relationship

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1 hour ago, Vincent Hanna said:

Rewatched this one earlier and was thinking the whole time how it would've been cool if they added Pam Grier to the main cast in S2. It would've allowed us to see more of Tubbs personal life and then they could've killed her off in Sons and Lovers instead of Angelina.

I guess they didn't want another woman regular on the show or Tubbs to be in a relationship

I'll have to mull that over, but that sounds like a good idea - certainly "Sons and Lovers" would be more powerful.  But how would Angelina's baby fit into the scenario? 

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UH-UH!! That scenario is OUT OF THE QUESTION!  (LOL!!)  You're killing off Pam Grier!  That's THE Pam Grier---no writer/producer with their head attached correctly ever rolls snake-eyes for Pam and kills her off.  
Hey, director John Carpenter killed off Pam's character in his movie Ghosts of Mars (...and I hated the movie from that point forward), and if you notice, he COULDN'T kill her on-camera!  His conscience just couldn't let him do it in front the audience---that's Pam Grier---that gal's a righteous sista!

If the show ever killed off Pam Grier in one of their episodes, even if she was playing a villainess, I'd instantly enact a viewer-strike---I'd stop watching Miami Vice for... a whole TWO WEEKS!!!

 

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30 minutes ago, Augusta said:


UH-UH!! That scenario is OUT OF THE QUESTION!  (LOL!!)  You're killing off Pam Grier!  That's THE Pam Grier---no writer/producer with their head attached correctly ever rolls snake-eyes for Pam and kills her off.  
Hey, director John Carpenter killed off Pam's character in his movie Ghosts of Mars (...and I hated the movie from that point forward), and if you notice, he COULDN'T kill her on-camera!  His conscience just couldn't let him do it in front the audience---that's Pam Grier---that gal's a righteous sista!

If the show ever killed off Pam Grier in one of their episodes, even if she was playing a villainess, I'd instantly enact a viewer-strike---I'd stop watching Miami Vice for... a whole TWO WEEKS!!!

 

I was leaning more into the idea of Pam being on the main cast. :happy:  You're right killing her off would've been a bad idea, just thought it would've had more gravitas than Angelina (No offence to her).

Wish we had more Grier guest appearances at least.

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Sorry...but Pam Grier’s character of ‘Valerie’ was poison...for Tubbs or any guy that would try & get with her! :blind: 

She was definitely Tubbs’ femme fatale, and was a user & manipulator. :evil: She only got with Rico, or made contact with him when she wanted or needed something. Then as soon as it was done, so was she.

She only brought heartache and trouble to & with Tubbs. Pam Grier is a good actress, but her character on MV was annoying and toxic...in some ways I think they should have had an emotional episode where she’s killed off. As painful (at first) for Tubbs as that would be...at least he could have then moved onto someone else more genuine, loving, and stable. 

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44 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Sorry...but Pam Grier’s character of ‘Valerie’ was poison...for Tubbs or any guy that would try & get with her! :blind: 

She was definitely Tubbs’ femme fatale, and was a user & manipulator. :evil: She only got with Rico, or made contact with him when she wanted or needed something. Then as soon as it was done, so was she.

She only brought heartache and trouble to & with Tubbs. Pam Grier is a good actress, but her character on MV was annoying and toxic...in some ways I think they should have had an emotional episode where she’s killed off. As painful (at first) for Tubbs as that would be...at least he could have then moved onto someone else more genuine, loving, and stable. 

I agree, femme Fatale, I think an underrated one at that. Very toxic indeed for our man Tubbs; Valerie gave Ricardo nothing to work with, while also leaving him hanging. Yep, we gotta go with the smart, beautiful, tough, brave, and resourceful Alicia Austin in this spot for sure!

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9 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

I agree, femme Fatale, I think an underrated one at that. Very toxic indeed for our man Tubbs; Valerie gave Ricardo nothing to work with, while also leaving him hanging. Yep, we gotta go with the smart, beautiful, tough, brave, and resourceful Alicia Austin in this spot for sure!

Agreed! :thumbsup: 

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vor 16 Stunden schrieb ViceFanMan:

Sorry...but Pam Grier’s character of ‘Valerie’ was poison...for Tubbs or any guy that would try & get with her! :blind: 

She was definitely Tubbs’ femme fatale, and was a user & manipulator. :evil: She only got with Rico, or made contact with him when she wanted or needed something. Then as soon as it was done, so was she.

She only brought heartache and trouble to & with Tubbs. Pam Grier is a good actress, but her character on MV was annoying and toxic...in some ways I think they should have had an emotional episode where she’s killed off. As painful (at first) for Tubbs as that would be...at least he could have then moved onto someone else more genuine, loving, and stable. 

I absolutely agree with you there. Her role in Vice has only been positive for me once for a moment and that was in the scene in Prodigal Son where she showed up to help Tubbs and Crockett against the Revillas. Other than that, she's always just taken advantage of Rico.
I wouldn't have minded if she had died in Angelina's place. There certainly could have been a solution to the baby story and it wouldn't even have had to be fatal. Couples find each other, couples break up for all kinds of reasons.

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  • 10 months later...

Getting permission to shoot at the WTC must have been a movie in itself. The place was co-managed by two Port Authorities (New Jersey and New York). A bureaucratic nightmare.  

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb johnnyfarragut:

Getting permission to shoot at the WTC must have been a movie in itself. The place was co-managed by two Port Authorities (New Jersey and New York). A bureaucratic nightmare.  

 

Normally yes, also the permission to close majot streets throughout the city

But given the attention the show had in summer 1985 and the crowd on the streets for the crew while filming and beyond I guess the producers had the juice to cut corners here.

I remember that the museum of Fort Lauderdale did not want to grant filming permission for "Free verse" in late season 2 and the producers just asked the governor for Florida for help and it took him one call to fix the issue with the museum. Thus I guess VICE had some similar support in NYC.

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  • 1 month later...

Watching this epic episode last I noticed the girl at the bar in "Milk Run" (Club Delirious)Untitled.png.d89e615c6c4910c6082c9b458e50c90d.png

I know it's insignificant but I can't help but spot people/things out in the series :)

21.png.f026901fd1e6e452c07e314b8bb4f01a.png

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said:

Watching this epic episode last I noticed the girl at the bar in "Milk Run" (Club Delirious)Untitled.png.d89e615c6c4910c6082c9b458e50c90d.png

I know it's insignificant but I can't help but spot people/things out in the series :)

21.png.f026901fd1e6e452c07e314b8bb4f01a.png

 

 

 

 

 

That’s what makes watching the show multiple times interesting...usually I can spot someone or something new each time! :thumbsup: It’s always fun to spot “insignificant” details or aspects in multiple episodes (same people, same locations, same location but supposed to be different in an episode, etc...). To me, that then makes those details...significant:dance2: 

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  • 2 months later...
  • 1 month later...

Screenwriter Daniel Pyne on the decision to shoot in New York:

" It was a group decision (doing 'a New York episode').

We wanted to flip the premise: take Tubbs back to New York, and his home, and see Crockett out of his element.

I majored in economics, so I kind of knew the lay of the land. But Michael Mann was also fascinated by the vertical integration of the drug business which, in the early eighties, was just beginning to happen, and led to the Columbian and now Mexican cartels."

Edited by johnnyfarragut
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  • 3 weeks later...

An all-time classic. Quite possibly the best soundtrack for an episode ever with an all-star supporting cast. The entire thing could have been released into theaters. And always fun to see mid-80s NYC on film.

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On 4/22/2023 at 6:19 PM, johnnyfarragut said:

Screenwriter Daniel Pyne on the decision to shoot in New York:

" It was a group decision (doing 'a New York episode').

We wanted to flip the premise: take Tubbs back to New York, and his home, and see Crockett out of his element.

I majored in economics, so I kind of knew the lay of the land. But Michael Mann was also fascinated by the vertical integration of the drug business which, in the early eighties, was just beginning to happen, and led to the Columbian and now Mexican cartels."

Pyne was on a high after leaving “Matt Houston” in 1984. Incidentally his co-writing partner for Matt Houston from 1983-1985 was Scott Shepherd who ran Miami Vice in 1988-89 with Robert Ward and Dick Brams.

Edited by Matt5
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On 11/6/2022 at 4:05 PM, johnnyfarragut said:

This sequence is so iconic: 

 

The best — sums up the look and sound of the Summer of 1985.

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