Vltor's Bren Ten Update

[Kavinsky]

Indeed but they could have admited this far earlier and saved face by admiting their faults and appologizing. now it only seems like the reason why they're doing it is because their planning to try and make it and wish to bring back their alienated audience back into the fold.

 

the right thing but for the wrong reasons.

 

That's part of the reason why I've stopped following it and also I bought a copy of the Bren Ten the Heir apparent and it really seems like its too much of a nitch gun/caliber in 10mm to succeed. and like this will just be a repeat of the past.

 

however at the Cabellas a box of 10mm was 38.00, 44 magnum 45. so maybe with the magnum people there could be some hope there

 

But a box of .40 smith, their everywhere for something like 20 bucks, so unless they have a conversion kit to .40 call along with the 10mm version I cant really see this selling well.

 

in addition to how they handled their fanbase earlier

 

and .45 they might have something there if they produce a quality product and experement with a polymer framed one to keep the cost down but who knows, I wouldnt hold my breath.

 

after all this company isnt known for making handguns, only accessories to the M16 (and possibly the styer AUG Civlian rifle itself) to my knowledge

Edited April 9, 2014 by Kavinsky

[Kavinsky]

No news on this front but I recently finished up reading the book on the bren ten, the heir apparent which has some unusual insight into the vltor project and how they went about it.

 

in that it reads like a repeat of the first attempt at production.

 

Namely rumors that Ruger was going to do the Metal Injection Molding, the disaster of an update blog, that D and D had done back in the day. Just modernized with that little blog of theirs. which just served to anger and piss everyone off.

 

some supplyer taking orders for the bren ten apparently unauthorized according to the latest blog post, promising this, promising that.

 

it really begs the damn question why didnt they look this up and read the damn book first to prevent all this.

 

 

and that was the other thing, Metal Injection Molding, with the original guns, the parts were Outsourced, not made in house and assembled at D and D with an untrained staff

 

and the people making the MIM for D and D were untrained with it and using D and D and the bren ten as a testbed for that process, resulting in the problems with the moldings, namely the slides, internal parts and frames.

 

and when they complained about it to them the people doing the molding threatned to sue while d and d had no money to pursue this.

 

as they got the process backwards, you heat the metal up in the mold, heat treat it and then mill it, with this company and D and D themselves they heat treated AFTER the parts were cut, screwing up the dimensions of some of the guns, in addition to the problems with the moldings and mosture getting in.

 

and probably not getting the metal hot enough to properly mix in the molds.

 

and the original prototype, CNC machined by Dixion himself, in .45 acp, and that one lasted and survived with alot of rounds through and he even admits if the gun had come in .45 acp they probably would have made it.

 

as the problems with the magazines came from attempting to do both .45 mags and 10mm with one mag, and the power of the 10mm beat the hell out of the followers that came from Mec gar, Unheattreated

 

forcing D and D to find someone else to do it, while with .45 they could have gotten away with it.

 

I mean the whole thing sounds like a mess, anything that could go wrong, went wrong with it, the gun was ment as a .45, Cooper wanted a 10mm, the cartridge was upped 3 times to 41 magnum levels on a gun with problems, the slide was lightened to better match the weight of the M1911.

 

further causing more problems, magazines were made at maxium spec with century arms against minumn spec parts from Golden state castings, causing the mags to jam in the gun with the bad followers as they were loose at the bottom

 

which D and D fixed by putting two rivets at the bottom of the magazine to keep it in place under recoil.

 

its no wonder that when the perigrine falcon thing happened it sounded like one of the ideas was to just go with a .45 and a .40 SW version.

[Kavinsky]

however that's where the hope comes in for this project, with the Falcon they made the slide heavier to retard the recoil forces, went with a stronger glock and Sig like locking breach that was easier to make and cheaper, hence the funky look here

 

 

lenghened the front dust cover to cover the rails, as to cover the wear marks that would sometimes occur on the rails

 

 

 

although he failed to pull the pocket forward, which I would have done like I did with this doctured image I made

 

 

as I redid to keep the balanced look of that dust cover, although I think I should have put the Made in USA bit further back

 

the original for compairson:

 

 

 

and redid and strengthened the internal parts for 10mm, coming in under 2 ounces lighter than the bren ten at 37 OZ, problem was the guy running the project, Richard Voit decided to pursue someone else who didnt know how to properly handle MIM.

 

causing delays as he sued them as he had the capitol to do so, and the loan on the company ran out 1 month before production, and not wanting to put more money into it, he canceled the project 1 month from completion and production.

 

the investment would have been 2 to 3 million bucks in 1993 ontop of the cost already, during the Bush/clinton I did not sleep with that woman era.

 

but the hope comes in that the bren ten actually damn near got resureccted once again by Triton as early as the 2000's, complete with a .40 Super cartridge that sounds like the 10mm with none of the drawbacks

 

 

ts just that the competition at the time with glock, with its armory and trade in program with law enforcement, and the HK's having easy to drop in trigger groups

 

that the more complex CZ 75 designed system worried the investors about the possible profit they could get out of this, as it was going to require an intial investment of 3 million bucks, with them putting up the money for a thousand guns right off the bat.

 

made without order, and then to be sold. but the main guy behind this figures they would have atleast half of it sold just based on the memories of the gun from vices era.

 

so the project was pulled as they didnt have the surpluss and confidence to go through with it, although the head of the project wishes he would have said to hell with it and made it anyways.

 

meaning technically the bren ten project has been revived and dropped twice in the past 20 years already, its just that once it was known, and then not really known how close we came to having it back.

 

and CZ is making a CZ in .45 ACP right now that's recently got a feature overhaul. making it seem much more modern than the old CZ 97 of a few years ago.

 

along with Polymer CZ's and I would bet they would have something similar going on with their modern trigger groups for the SP 101 series that are similar to what glock and HK do.

 

so it could be possible to translate that to the bren ten, if their is any truth to that. Although I'm not a CZ armorer.

 

so it really seems like its just a matter of time before it happens again, and this time Vltor actually makes gun parts and has experence making stuff probably with MIM moldings, despite the history repeating and their PR screwups.

 

so if they actually make it, it works and delivers on its promises, after reading this book and everything that's happened, I mean screw it, what do I have to loose, I'm down for it, if it works out

 

 

the most interesting thing though is the .40 super cartridge though, sadly discontinued in 01' 02' after a buyout, just looking at the thing its like a .357 Sig except for the .45 ACP

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_Super

 

FYI Ironically one of the names of the people who does the conversion pops out too, local guy.

 

according to the book, the thing because of the way the brass is rigged up and streangthened, which apparently it got from the .41 AE, its strong enough to contain high pressures, thus resulting in less pressure being put on the firearm.

 

despite its 10mm magnum performance, something like 35,000 PSI. below the maxiumn tollerance of the .40 SW casing, and one of the testing guns, get this, it was a Smith 4506 with a drop in barrel for the cartridge and a Recoil spring system rigged up to take the beating from the cartridge.

 

probably the same weight as the 10mm Smith 1006's springs for hot 10mm, 22 to 24 pounds Vs 16 for .45, and no problems were reported.

 

and that was kinda why they showed interest in the bren ten at Triton, they had a 10mm without any of the drawbacks that could probably work in the original design if the molds held up.

 

so like I said, probably just a matter of time, hell I gotta wonder how that 97 would hold up with that cartridge barrel drop in along with the recoil system.

 

and I think that's the first time I've used the word hope with no intended malice in the past 6 years actually.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Kavinsky

[miamijimf]

Got to fire a friends Smith and Wessen 4506, DJ's principal firearm during season five.  Nice weapon, pretty accurate and easy to shoot. I'm use to firing a pistol with a larger grip that holds more rounds.  That seemed to be the only thing different about this pistol.  Photos below of pistol and DJ firing a 4506.  

 

 

Edited May 29, 2014 by miamijimf

[Kavinsky]

Yeah I'm plesantly surprised with how good they are when it comes to my 645, the predecessor of that gun, and they shoot much better than the M1911 series. Which always seems to leave a wear mark on the web of the hand after as little as two boxes of ammo.

 

645 though, never. So its little wonder why the Famed gunwriter Elmer Keith thought that the ultimate replacement for the M1911 was a model 39 in .45 back in the 1950's in his book six guns, Which is exactly what the 645 and 4506 are.

 

its just a damn pitty he never got to try it, as he died in 84'

 

and he was dead right too and I'm glad I made the leap of faith with it after the 686 Debacle that plagued my father 30 years ago:

 

http://firearmsid.com/recalls/FA_Recalls%205.htm

 

I mean look at that damn list of effected L frames there, yeash, I aint ever touching an L frame period, I'll stick to the K's and the N's thank you very much lol.

 

and after reading the bren ten heir apparent, I keep thinking about getting a 4506 to go along with the 645, in the bren ten livery.

 

Leave the slide beadblasted, Polish the frame, have it brushed save for the dust cover at the front, have it fitted with the stock horizontal Fixed sights and after reading about that .40 Super I'm kind of intrigued to see how well that would really work in that thing, As it said in the bren ten book the 4506 was used as a prototype for it and it didnt break with the appopriate recoil spring.

 

although back ontopic with the bren ten, its kind of funny that Crockett's guns of choice all had the same theme, what would be a good Modern alternative to the M1911 in the 1980's?

 

Jim Zubena, the Hitman from the Hitlist (who also did dons gun for Nash Bridges) thought it would be the bren ten, after Crockett had used the P220 in the pilot, then that got replaced with the 645/4506 series.

 

and his backups followed the same flow more or less.

 

also I would bet that Jim and Don both remembered the look of the Standard Bren ten when making his .38 super for nash bridges, hence its blued over hard chromed look, which is also just like what Jeff Cooper did to his personal M1911 as well.

 

But nowadays I would fit him with the HK 45 that Jack Bower is now using after trying one myself, its far better than the USP was by a mile.

 

 

 

Also Ironically this is what I have running in the background as I type this, jesus I am cliche sometimes lol

 

 

but it is very appropriate for the subject matter too, so two tries to bring back the bren ten, lets see if the third works out.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Kavinsky

[Gary1911A1]

I'm not holding my breath for Viltor to reintroduced the Bren Ten, but there is some good news for 10MM Fans. Sig is going to introduce a Sig 220 in 10MM in 2015. Knowing Sig they will take the time to get it right as far as it being reliable and durable. I plan on getting one. Also as a side note to Vice Fans, Sonny carried a Sig 220 n the pilot and also when he was "Bad Sonny".

[Kavinsky]

Hmm and they did a two tone stainless steel frame, alloy slide version recently, plus that other sig .45

 

should be interesting to see how it comes out, is it going to be an all stainless, two tone or monotone black as usual from them.

[Gary1911A1]

Looks like all stainless for now. Other models may follow.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Gary1911A1

[Kavinsky]

Barrel Length? is it a 4 or a 5?

[Gary1911A1]

Barrel Length? is it a 4 or a 5?

It appears standard 220 barrel length which is about 4 1/4 and 5". Here's a link to a discussion about it:

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/4280076263

[Kavinsky]

Hmm sounds like its going to be quite the piece, I remember seeing a 220 match in person and it was quite impressive, and I did pass on a 229 .40 years ago that had a really good feel to it.

 

but it seems like anything with 29/229 in the name is ment for me weirdly.

 

hmm kinda funny really, you can get and or make the equavalent of a 10mm with the smiths with the .40 super, and now the Sigs, but yet still no bren ten, I guess that's what happens when you have someone who is only known for making AR accesories try to make a pistol out of nowhere.

 

atleast we got this then, I wonder if this means that they'll eventually try and make a a Special forces like model, plus sig sauer likes to make two tones too. although in that case it'll probably require a 30 pound spring to absorb the recoil with the shorter barrel.

 

plus this might force HK's hand and force them to come out with a 10mm version of the HK 45, a fine pistol that is a 100X better than the USP, which has that same cocked and locked feature as the bren/cz with a safety built into it.

 

where all you need to do is push it all the way down to decock and put it on safe.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Kavinsky

[Gary1911A1]

Here is the official announcement on Sig making their Model 220, used on Miami Vice in .45ACP, now in 10MM. I'll be getting the reverse two tone DA/SA.

http://lipseys.com/announcements.aspx?post=LIPSEYSLAUNCHESNEWEXCLUSIVESIGSAUERP22010mm

[Kavinsky]

not related to the new 220, but I did come across some video action of the standard model in the wild

 

 

[timm525]

Here's the latest update. Yeah right! I'll believe it when I see them in stores. 

 

[Kavinsky]

you know there is something to be said about making a gun design from scratch, but they arent, the CZ 75 series has been around damn near 40 years, complete with a 10mm clone coming out of italy of all places, with semi reasonable success. if you up the springs and the quality of some of the metal parts.

 

and all you need to make a 10mm is a working .45 action. and if they made one like that, that is reliable and long lasting, and put heavier springs on it and beef up the slide and frame, as the barrel would automatically be stronger just from milling it to ony .40 call just like the 645 to the 1006 and there you go.

 

bren ten

 

its not rocket science, you just need to make the pistol in conventional cartridges first vltor, put it out on the market for a few years, then buff it up for 10mm, just like smith and sig are doing.

 

as with cars, there is a 5 year work out period for most of the problems, with guns its usually about 3.

 

and theres a counter issue here, if they're constantly firing the bren ten prototypes in 10mm with a couple thousand rounds a day, it doesnt matter how good it is, if it doesnt have time to cool down, or get dunked in a barrel of water it will break, as the same thing happened with the A arms of the Corvette ZR1 on the testing machine in england,

 

they overtested it by putting it on a machine day and night to break it, and it overdid the reasonable amount of stress it would actually go under, and just kept breaking them and breaking them, even though under road and race use they dont break apparently.

 

and all you do then is just keep putting yourself back to the drawing board, I mean its abit like having a ferrari at the red line all the time, it doesnt matter how good or how well it was put together, eventually you will break it, as machines are just like humans

 

its the sudden stops and go's that kill us.

[Gary1911A1]

Here's more of an update on the Sig 220 in 10MM:

This is a Limited Run until the end of March and will run about $14000 plus various fees and taxes. I'm going to hold out for the DA/SA version that I believe will be out in April. A all stainless and nitron finished 4.4 inch is suppose to follow I the future.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Gary1911A1

[Kavinsky]

I think you got the number a little wrong lol, 14 G is walther WA 2000 money, if not more.

 

Pretty good accuracy out of it though, as it looks to be as accurate as an old 1950's Smith and Wesson K22, if they can keep that kind of QC out of it it could very well be the next bren ten..... well Smith 1006 I should say, although I'd like to see how well he'd shoot a DA only version.

 

as that's the real test of a good trigger.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Kavinsky

[Gary1911A1]

Hello Kavinsky, I must of tapped a zero one more than I meant to. $1400 is the suggested price. Here is a link to the DA/SA version I'm interested in. Supposedly Sig will have these out in April, although I wouldn't be surprised if it's a few months longer. While I would of liked for Viltor to have made the Bren Ten, I'm not holding my breath. Anyone who wants a quality metal frame 10MM might want to order one of these as we are seeing more and more manufacturers introducing polymer frame striker fired pistols. Have a good Vice Day everybody.

http://www.lipseys.com/itemdetail.aspx?itemno=SI220R510RTASMS

[Kavinsky]

I figured as much but no worries lol and yeah might as well wait a month or two extra just to see what kind of early issues it may have, as even that glock 380, the 42 model had some teething issues

 

however it was an all new design and they switched over to that new detonics like spring system, so the whole glock lineup is undergoing teething issues.

 

plus I'm in the midst of a rebuild of the old walther so I'm going to hold off even longer, I must be about half way up into what it cost to get in parts costs alone and my god do not buy a 1944 Model CYQ make -_-

 

so far the Trigger bar was full of burrs and the sear for the thing that mates with it, I have never seen that kind of rough around the edges machining before on a pistol.

 

I mean no wonder the DA trigger on the thing was terrible, by the time I'm done with it its going to be a new gun, as the firing pin broke and its been let me look at everything else on it while I'm at it kind of mentality for it.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Kavinsky

[alleycat]

I am such a fan of the sig since I owned one and so would like if the bren ten would make a come back but maybe a pipe dream but a lucky few have them.

[Kavinsky]

hmm aley cat if you get the chance try and find the book the bren ten heir apparent, as there can be a bren ten again, its just that vltor has shown time and time again that they just dont have the will and the knowhow to do it

 

and originally the boys at D and D had approached colt and well they gave away all the design secrets behind the bren ten, and thus colt didnt go through with it and never called them back, kinda like a ha ha sucker kinda deal, and then the Colt 10mm Delta Elite came out in the 1980's

 

as a line showed up in Magnum PI, 10 MM casings, there either from a bren ten or a colt in one of them, so D and D and the bren ten could have been made by colt, and there is a CZ clone in 10mm out there.

 

its just that, well just like with video games, the rights to the designs and laws and licences are in the wrong hands to make it happen.

 

 

 

and I think that is bar none the most infuriating part of it, and why everyone at the bren ten forums has been so angry at Vltor, its like if lamborghini all this time was going yes, were going to make the Estoque!

 

 

 

 

 

its going to have a V12, not that stupid downsized knock off viper engine made to sound like a poor knockoff of a V12 that they shove in everything nowadays!

 

15:37

 

 and not have 4 wheel drive and a proper manual box, its going to be a return to what the old man wanted in the first place, This!

 

 

Not This!

 

 

 

 

4 to 6 to 10 years latter

 

were still working on it! keep following us for updates! and I'm still angry at them for not having the guts to honor the old mans legacy by making that car or any front engined car in general, as you shouldnt have to go to aston to get that.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Kavinsky

[Gary1911A1]

I figured as much but no worries lol and yeah might as well wait a month or two extra just to see what kind of early issues it may have, as even that glock 380, the 42 model had some teething issues

 

however it was an all new design and they switched over to that new detonics like spring system, so the whole glock lineup is undergoing teething issues.

 

plus I'm in the midst of a rebuild of the old walther so I'm going to hold off even longer, I must be about half way up into what it cost to get in parts costs alone and my god do not buy a 1944 Model CYQ make -_-

 

so far the Trigger bar was full of burrs and the sear for the thing that mates with it, I have never seen that kind of rough around the edges machining before on a pistol.

 

I mean no wonder the DA trigger on the thing was terrible, by the time I'm done with it its going to be a new gun, as the firing pin broke and its been let me look at everything else on it while I'm at it kind of mentality for it.

I understand your problems with your P38 as I had one with a 14/15 pound DA pull. Recently I purchased a P1 made in the late 78 tat has a much better trigger. 1944 would of been late WW2 production and by then Walthers were just being slapped together as quickly as possible with little to no concern over quality. I'm planning on calling Lipseys today or tomorrow on the Sig 220 10MM and I'll let everyone know what they said.

[Kavinsky]

Well what happened was I found out that the trigger bar was badly marred once I started taking it apart to find out why the DA trigger was so knotchy and inconsistant, so I replaced that, and the spring, spring first then I found part of a pin around the same area where the trigger linked into the bar at the front

 

looked all over, it was the firing pin, it broke, so I had to get a replacement for it, turns out the hole on its too small on the replacement slide (as that broke as I didnt replace the springs before I started shooting it regularly, as you need to do that on worn Beretta's and Walthers, as the 92 is basically just a double stack walther made by the italians) and it broke it, and the replacement firing pin was jammed into it when I tried it dry, and I had to get it out with a punch, so its going to need to be drilled out and refitted at the gunsmith

 

and in the meantime it still had a palpable click when you touched it for SA before you took up the slack, so I took the other connecting bit out, the sear and my god the mating surface on that part where the trigger bar meets the sear was so badly scarred.

 

its little wonder that the gun wasnt staying open after the last shot, as theres a bar spring that ties into it and puts pressure on it.

 

and the bottom half of it looked insane, while the rest of the parts look fine.

 

I swear I think this thing was in the battle of the buldge with how much wear that part had on it, so tommorow I am going to order in the sear and a new trigger, although considering this is the gun I learned to shoot on, I'm not sure if its neccisary or right to replace the physical trigger on it like that.

 

as that piece in particular is a piece of history, my history, whille the rest was just broken and worn parts.

 

as I'm wondering if that would be the equavalent of replacing the steering wheel in a car that ran some famous race, you know, is it right to remove it for a better part? considering the history and people it must have come into contact with?

 

 

but after that I am going to go to the gunsmith, have him drill and fit the new firing pin and put in the new front sight, and hopefully this thing will be done and ready for action again, now if I could only find a replacement right side brown WW2 grip.

 

although I swear at this rate I'm going to be a certified Walther Technician on the P38 series, if only the damn P5 and P88 series didnt cost a bloody leg and a half (a P5 in MA, the only one here for an alloy frame, 1600 BUCKS)........ but I have shot the P88 no less too

 

its probably worth every penny and its probably the same price, I dont know with the P5 though.

 

and with the durability and changes that were done to the pistol in its post war life as the P1, its little wonder that the Austrians Contacted Mr Glock and Asked him to make a pistol for them to replace it, and thus the Glock 17 was born, and I shoot both the First gen 17L from vices time period with german proofmarks no less. and the walther.

 

its just the walther means so much more to me, but I fully understand the flaws now and why it was replaced with the glock by just about everybody, plus the 17L had an extractor that was launching the shells all over the place, including at the user. but I did clean it and the rest of the slide the other day

 

so hopefully just like with the kimber, a simple cleaning of the extractor and its parts will fix that, and I still need to get a replacement trigger slack bar for the 4006, a new recoil spring, and have the slide coated black to give it a two tone look,

 

and I need to have a rough edge on the trigger and a little refinishing/restoring of the finish work done on the 645, namely with the front sight.

 

 and yet all the revolvers are still working fine lol the magical wonders of semi autos my aching ass lol. more parts more problems.

 

oh well once its done its done.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Kavinsky

[Gary1911A1]

Sorry to hear about your problems with your P38. I guess you know about the Walther Forum. They have a Subforum called the Classics and someone there might be able to advise you than me. Sounds like you know more than me. It seems once a firearm is out of production people start to rapidly loose interest. I think the S&W Third Generation Auto Pistols will follow the same fate after a few more major LE Agencies stop using them altogether.

I contacted Lipseys two days ago and no response to when we can order. I guess we just have to contact a Lipsey Dealer and ask them. The ones listed for my area will want almost full retail and I don't want to pay them and they just hold onto or spend the money elsewhere all the time giving me BS excuses. May wait until I see one in person or on GunBroker.

[Kavinsky]

Actually I did all this by simply looking up a video on how to take the slide apart, the rest was just following some of the instructions and part diagrams in the NRA handgun manual, and fiddling with it

 

and the firing pin breaking in the first place on this new old stock slide was a hint in of itself that I should have looked into before I tried to fit the new firing pin, honestly the only time I consulted a forum on it was on the p38 forum to find out when it was made (feb1944, as the CYQ's dont have a date on them)

 

as the P38's remarkably simple really, and well there is also this

 

 

 

 

 

 

which means all the P5 might be is a beefed up P38 with a redesign to make it more sleak and less drag prone on the clothes, its just I dont think its worth over 800 bucks, let alone 1600. and this baby was half the first figure years ago, and the P88 is steel framed.

 

so it behooves me to try and get it working again, plus the frame outside of the trigger bar and the sear seem to be fine, its just that the machining is abit rough in certain areas.

 

everything else looks fine though, and its little wonder the austrians wanted the glock to have as many parts if not less than the p38 because it is remarkably simple. and the PPK seems to be the same roughly.

 

and the PPK and the P38 were the glocks of their time.

 

 

With the Third gens I dont know though, as Smith Brought the K frame back into production along with that model 69 recently as I really like that new age look on an old revolver like that, and honestly I've kind of been eyeing that one, although I dont know how good the trigger is, as the guy said its okay, while the model 49 and 29 from the 1970's and 1980 bar none have the best DA triggers I've ever handled.

 

so a revival of the 39 series could be a possibility, as they have the M and P now to bring in the bread from the police forces in its place, so they might be able to focus more on enthusasts pieces like that from now on.

 

as guns like that are just like watches, they have a limited market, but a devoted market provided their well made and have a special sort of mechanical harmony to them, not unlike something like this beaute

 

 

 

also do you know if colt triggers live up to the hype, like on the old python, as the price on those has long since prohibited me into looking into one of them, and they just seem to keep going up and up in the price charts.

 

and I just dont know if it would be worth it.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Kavinsky