timm525

Vltor's Bren Ten Update

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Lifeguard
2 hours ago, Kavinsky said:

yeah I tried putting an 18 in the 4006, one above standard and it slammed it so far back that it would lock open on a live round and it did this more than a few times and I had the option of going for a 20 as well, needless to say I put the 17 back in it,

and then i noticed how oxidized the guide rod was and polished it with mothers mag polish, along with a light sanding to the feed ramp via a fine sanding stick for plastic models, so now as long as I dont grip too high, the gun no longer stove pipes on me. so sometimes the function of the gun has nothing to do with the spring or the action, but rather the guide rod itself, as it was noticibly coarse.

to the point that I may try and order a new one to see if they came from the factory anything like that, as theres a physical bump I can feel at one end, and this may have been one of the first from when the machining was fresh and untried, hence the problems I was having with it.

as after doing that polish job I had no stove pipes in 40 rounds, and it instantly stovepiped when I tried to grip higher, as before then there was something like 2 in a 100, one at the start, one at the end and the hold didnt matter, now it doesnt jam and it only does it when I grip it wrong, consistantly too for two rounds right after each other

which means I'm on the right track finally, and maybe switching the grips back to the less chunky and grippy stock grips will help with that, but like all machines, every single one is different and sometimes requires outside of the box thinking to get it running right.

also take the springs, put them in bags and label them as theirs no pressing on them to tell you what they are after you open the packaging which makes it easy to mix up.

IE plastic bags, tamiya masking tape, the non plastic finished one, the one that's like normal masking tape but better, and write the poundage on it.

 

and that should help you keep it straight.

My guide rods are all silky smooth.  Stovepiping huh?  I have no issues with mechanical problems, just wanting to tune the performance to make it faster and accurate on followups and initial DA.  The reputation of the 645/4506 is that of a garbage disposal, eating up any and all ammunition without a hiccup.  Weird that the same design in .40S&W is not the same?  

Yeah, I polish all my feed ramps to make sure they let the cartridge glide smoothly into the breach.  But I also polish the sides of the drawbar to make trigger pull as smooth as possible.  Along with polishing some of the metal on metal contact points for the frame internals so they are smooth.  But on both 645s, I'm also using a straight edge and sand paper to polish the rails to make the action butter smooth.  If you 4006 is alloy, this isn't a good idea, better to let them wear in from the steel slide.  I've been exercising the 6906 action for some time when I'm watching videos, and it is noticeably smoother now.  Also polishing the bottom of the slide where i contacts the hammer as it moves back, as well as polishing the top surface of the frame (on steel frames).

On the slide, I've got some real improvement with the decocker by polishing the inside of the from where the button detents.  The 645-INT and 6906 early where kind of gritty.  Polishing, cleaning it up, and oiling it made the decocker nice and snappy.  Big improvement.

I did one better on the springs, I color coded them with a paint marker and put a card in my kit with the spring weights for each color.  White stock, blue one weight down from stock, red 2 steps down, and green 3 steps down.  Made it easy.  I'm sticking with 4lb trigger springs in each one, as SA is pretty smooth and easy but has a little play in it.  I put the upgraded firing pin spring that Wolf sends with its kits.  Two things I'm playing with next on the range are the hammer spring and recoil spring.

Still debating on the magazine safety?  At the range, it's an extra safety feature.  If I can get these damn rear sights off and then take enough material off the bottom of them so that you don't need a hydraulic press to remove them, then I can swap them in and out between range and carry time.

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Kavinsky
4 hours ago, Lifeguard said:

My guide rods are all silky smooth.  Stovepiping huh?  I have no issues with mechanical problems, just wanting to tune the performance to make it faster and accurate on followups and initial DA.  The reputation of the 645/4506 is that of a garbage disposal, eating up any and all ammunition without a hiccup.  Weird that the same design in .40S&W is not the same?  

Yeah, I polish all my feed ramps to make sure they let the cartridge glide smoothly into the breach.  But I also polish the sides of the drawbar to make trigger pull as smooth as possible.  Along with polishing some of the metal on metal contact points for the frame internals so they are smooth.  But on both 645s, I'm also using a straight edge and sand paper to polish the rails to make the action butter smooth.  If you 4006 is alloy, this isn't a good idea, better to let them wear in from the steel slide.  I've been exercising the 6906 action for some time when I'm watching videos, and it is noticeably smoother now.  Also polishing the bottom of the slide where i contacts the hammer as it moves back, as well as polishing the top surface of the frame (on steel frames).

On the slide, I've got some real improvement with the decocker by polishing the inside of the from where the button detents.  The 645-INT and 6906 early where kind of gritty.  Polishing, cleaning it up, and oiling it made the decocker nice and snappy.  Big improvement.

I did one better on the springs, I color coded them with a paint marker and put a card in my kit with the spring weights for each color.  White stock, blue one weight down from stock, red 2 steps down, and green 3 steps down.  Made it easy.  I'm sticking with 4lb trigger springs in each one, as SA is pretty smooth and easy but has a little play in it.  I put the upgraded firing pin spring that Wolf sends with its kits.  Two things I'm playing with next on the range are the hammer spring and recoil spring.

Still debating on the magazine safety?  At the range, it's an extra safety feature.  If I can get these damn rear sights off and then take enough material off the bottom of them so that you don't need a hydraulic press to remove them, then I can swap them in and out between range and carry time.

apparently mine is abit of an exception to the rule, but its literally one of the first, although I had the chance to go for a latter one that said combat on it, but with these people here, that's kinda like putting racing stripes on your car, as that's just asking for negative attention.

but I cant help but feel that maybe someone at the factory screwed up and put a 3906 guide rod on it. and yeah the 4006 and the model 39 series made post 639 and 39 seems to be regarded as being rough around the edges in general.

as I had someone go over abit awhile back and he said their all like that, although he put copper grease in the trigger area when he worked it over.

and I'd rather leave the mag disconnect alone, as it doesnt bother me

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Lifeguard
1 hour ago, Kavinsky said:

apparently mine is abit of an exception to the rule, but its literally one of the first, although I had the chance to go for a latter one that said combat on it, but with these people here, that's kinda like putting racing stripes on your car, as that's just asking for negative attention.

but I cant help but feel that maybe someone at the factory screwed up and put a 3906 guide rod on it. and yeah the 4006 and the model 39 series made post 639 and 39 seems to be regarded as being rough around the edges in general.

as I had someone go over abit awhile back and he said their all like that, although he put copper grease in the trigger area when he worked it over.

and I'd rather leave the mag disconnect alone, as it doesnt bother me

I'm wondering if the shape of the 40S&W and 10mm makes it harder to feed reliably?  It is more angular than the rounded 45 ACP and 9mm Parabellum.   My observation inside the 3rd generations in comparison to the 2nd gens is the opposite of the outside.  Exterior of the 3rd gens is nicely milled with no real sharpe edges like the 2nd gen.  But inside the 2nd gen seems like the parts were more finished, while in the 3rd gen the parts are more rough.  Probably steps skipped to speed up manufacture between the two generations?

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Kavinsky
2 hours ago, Lifeguard said:

I'm wondering if the shape of the 40S&W and 10mm makes it harder to feed reliably?  It is more angular than the rounded 45 ACP and 9mm Parabellum.   My observation inside the 3rd generations in comparison to the 2nd gens is the opposite of the outside.  Exterior of the 3rd gens is nicely milled with no real sharpe edges like the 2nd gen.  But inside the 2nd gen seems like the parts were more finished, while in the 3rd gen the parts are more rough.  Probably steps skipped to speed up manufacture between the two generations?

well it surprised me to find out that the second gen we're used as cop guns with how beautiful they were to begin with, as I still cant believe there was actually cops that packed and used 645's in real life, including the head of an LAPD swat team who traded his 1911 for it, and also that one of its many noted owners was none other than Mr Gonzo himself Hunter S thompson.

and when you buy in bulk and mass to save cost the fit and finishment suffers unless the department that ordered it is willing to pay more to have the job done right, but the thing was smith was ontop back then, so that wasnt an issue, and glock was nothing but a distant memory, by the start of the third gens however

the 1990's glock beat Smith to the punch with the Glock 23, in 40 cal, as the 4006 came out after that, and was designed for it, only to have it kaboom if the reload pressures werent perfect on the glock when it came to reloading for it, as ammo was scarce at the start, as they simply milled out a glock 19 to a 23 size hole, and its to the point where you can convert it back to 9mm with a separate barrel and the same magazine.

as I shot a 9mm out of the 40 without ever relizing it until the thing went off on the 23, as it fed, loaded and did everything right, hence why you catch me saying sized up to .40 call rather than made for it alot of times, which sometimes irked some of the firearms guys, but it was true! lol

and the glock 19 had more than a few problems when it was issued to the NYPD in the early 1990's, the thing was glock knew about this and promptly fixed and undercut smith and wesson anywhere they could to gain the market, even buying the guns back wholesale for a trade for new models.

and the glock menace got so bad that smith and wesson risked a law suit to come out with a straight rip off gun of it.

and promptly got sued for it, with the aptly titled smith and wesson stigma.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_SD

so it would make sense that when it comes to the internals, given that most cops never shoot their guns, they skipped out on the fit and finishment of them.

Edited by Kavinsky

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Lifeguard

Wow, Thompson's 1911......good thing he didn't get his 645.....that's what he took his life with.  Probably haunted now or cursed. ;)

Yeah, the 645 with brushed stainless finish is way too pretty for a duty weapon.  Likely why the 4506 went to just beed blasted finish with a plastic butt plate on the mag.  Make it duty carry friendly.  

Ah, modding the 9mm for the .40S&W, figures.  Shortcuts.  Yeah, since they developed the 1006 for the FBI, you'd think the 4006 would benefit from that development.  I guess you lucked out and got the one Hyundai in a production run of Hondas.   

My CCW instructor also had another story of someone at the range shooting a .40 and shaking his hand off after each shot.  He stopped him and observed the ammo that was laid out and the spent casings.  Asked the guy why he wasn't listening to what his handgun was telling him.  The casings were split, and he had 9mm and .40 ammo laid out.  He was shooting the 9mm in the 40 and the bypass gases were jetting past into the trigger area and burning his hand.  Must have been a bitch to clean later.  That's the thing, if I have 9mm, 10mm, .45 ACP out at the range, you can't confuse those.  Dummy-proof.

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Lifeguard

I've been doing a bit of research on the 10mm ammo, hoping to have a Bren Ten one of these days.  I was looking at what defensive load you would carry in it.  It's really tough shopping for 10mm ammo that would be period specific to the Bren Ten.  As I understand it, the original requirements for the 10mm was a 200gr with 1200fps plus.  When they made the FBI light load, which eventually shortened into .40S&W, it was reduced down to 180gr around 1000fps.  So when you buy 10mm it comes in two flavors of the original load and FBI light (basically a longer .40S&W).  Given the power of the full 10mm, it is better to practice and plink with light load ball ammo.  The Federal 180gr FMJ at 1030fps seems like a good choice in target ammo as it is easier to find.  But if you choose a defensive load that would have been was close to what Crockett was shooting in-universe (not the .45ACP blanks actually shot) you have only a couple of choices:

Doubletap 200gr JHP @ 1250fps

Underwood XTP 200gr JHP @ 1250fps

 

Or go with the same speed but lower weight:

Buffalo Bore 180gr JHP @ 1350fps

Doubletap 180gr JHP @ 1305fps

Grizzly 180gr JHP @ 1300fps

Underwood Gold Dot 180gr JHP @ 1300fps

Underwood Delta Elite 180gr JHP @ 1240fps

Underwood XTP 180gr JHP @ 1300fps

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Gary1911A1

I have given up on the Bren Ten ever being produced again. We live in a world of polymer striker fired pistols more and more each day. I don't know when a completely new quality model pistol with a metal frame in DA/SA has been introduced. If you want a quality 10MM DA/SA pistol I suggest the Sig 220 in 10MM. Sonny carried a Sig during the pilot and later when Bad Sonny. I think he would of approved.:D

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Lifeguard

Well my plan is to get an actual vintage Bren Ten someday, along with a Detonics Combatmaster Mark VI, as these do come up pretty regularly.  I did see one come up with both the .45 marksman barrel and slide, along with the 10mm.  If I had the cash it would have been interesting to have both.  I thought about what I would do if I had both slides and thought maybe hard chrome the .45 like Crockett's since that is what he had (it would just have the .45 script on it so not be screen accurate) and keep the 10mm blued.  Maybe the other way around?  I'll keep the Sig in mind tho.  I definitely do not like polymer striker fire, just too easy to have an ND on it.  

I don't know why I missed it before but I had never made the connection between the box that Gary1911A1 has in the photo of his Bren Ten, and the box on the table during Crockett's "therapy" session:

10940464_1531297910448297_54732268547955

And I came across this pic and realized that this must have been the in-universe ammo:

11088393_1552655548312533_48976731083983

Which in learning more about Norma ammo, it makes sense that since that was the ammo Dornaus & Dixon commissioned for the Bren, so it was what was available at the time.  So he must have had out the 200gr FMJ 1200fps for the range, and used the 170gr JHP 1300fps for carry.  

I found that Sig Sauer Elite 180gr (1250fps) is also available which sounds like a good approximation

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