Episode #64 "By Hooker By Crook"

[Mr. Calderon]

I really like this episode.

[RedDragon86]

12 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

Lots of shows back then didn’t focus as much on little “background” details like shows nowadays do...so you will now notice goofs, that maybe watching it back then you wouldn’t have. 

This episode is definitely a treat & one of the best of the season! However, there were a few others that did tend to show us that the writers were not as up-to-par as they had been in the first two seasons. 

“Walk Alone”, “Red Tape”, and even more so with “Viking Bikers from Hell” & “Everybody’s in Showbiz”...these were either sub-standard or pretty poor/bad ones that could have either been done better...or not done at all! 

But, overall I still like Season 3...still plenty of good episodes. Seasons 4-5 is when the true nose-dive starts. 

Walk Alone and Red Tape imo are great episodes 

Season 3 is a very good season and its packed with great episodes but I do think it lost its way towards the end.

The season's finale was pretty poor also.

Edited July 4, 2021 by RedDragon86

[Mr. Vigilante]

3 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

I understand that are going to be goofs but that was plain sloppiness or laziness from the production team, I mean the shooter is Asian then America, what? how ?

The goofs I have noticed in general don't bother me, like one of the crew members being seen in "The Great McCarthy" or Tubbs stunt double in the Daytona arriving at OCB or him appearing as Tubbs in DFTCP2 but that was comical. 

In season 3 they did things that I didn't like particularly camera wise, the sped up shootouts and car/boat chases looked naff. Enrique Bravo Sr filmed the show so much better, he was a big miss.

Please don't get me wrong, I do think season 3 has numerous great episodes and it is a good season but I do think that there are too many average episodes.

The goof of the gun changing from an automatic to a revolver was a funny moment for me.

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

Walk Alone and Red Tape imo are great episodes 

Season 3 is a very good season and its packed with great episodes but I do think it lost its way towards the end.

The season's finale was pretty poor also.

Season 3 did contain more poor episodes than the two previous seasons, but it still had some pretty good ones too.

However, “Walk-Alone” & “Red Tape” are pretty mediocre and/or episodes that have been way overdone.

Lots of goofs & mistakes in older shows are noticeable now...and despite how popular MV was, back in the 80s TV was still considered a “lower” medium compared to feature films (unlike today). They didn’t have the budget for realistic special effects that the CGI/computerized TV world does now. Speeding up the camera for a car or boat chase was sometimes the only way they had—even though you can tell what they did. 

[ViceFanMan]

3 hours ago, Mr. Calderon said:

I really like this episode.

Me too! I like the plot, the acting, the action, guest stars, etc!!! I enjoyed seeing Don & Melanie together, especially! 

[RedDragon86]

42 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Season 3 did contain more poor episodes than the two previous seasons, but it still had some pretty good ones too.

However, “Walk-Alone” & “Red Tape” are pretty mediocre and/or episodes that have been way overdone.

Lots of goofs & mistakes in older shows are noticeable now...and despite how popular MV was, back in the 80s TV was still considered a “lower” medium compared to feature films (unlike today). They didn’t have the budget for realistic special effects that the CGI/computerized TV world does now. Speeding up the camera for a car or boat chase was sometimes the only way they had—even though you can tell what they did. 

A prison episode was an original idea and Red Tape was something new I thought.

As for they other discussion they didn't speed up the camera in seasons 1 and 2 or even 4 or 5.

They just allowed the car or boat chase flow naturally.

The speeded up gun action looked a little odd at the end of Stones War and Killshot.

Edited July 4, 2021 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

10 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

A prison episode was an original idea and Red Tape was something new I thought.

As for they other discussion they didn't speed up the camera in seasons 1 and 2 or even 4 or 5.

They just allowed the car or boat chase flow naturally.

The speeded up gun action looked a little odd at the end of Stones War and Killshot.

The proverbial “prison episode” is definitely not a new or original idea, by any means!! From the 60s-90s, it seemed like every crime/cop show had to do the prison & boxing episodes...like they were prerequisites or something! They were always the same and basically became predictable & seriously overdone “fillers”!  

“Red Tape” was just kind of boring & just didn’t have the ‘punch’ that several of the other episodes did. Not a terrible episode, but not that great either...not as pathetic as “Viking Bikers” or “Showbiz”...but still a fairly weak one.

They may not have used the “speedy camera” idea for special effects in first season, but then they have to include longer & more scenes of the boat or car chases...and then everyone seems to whine & complain about long those scenes are, or too much of them (such as the boat race/chase in “Great McCarthy”...although I love that episode). 

So, I think to cut down on the length of those scenes, also try & make the chase look faster and ‘wilder’ (although it was a poor-mans way of doing special effects...but that’s what TV had back then), and open up more room for other action or plot scenes, a lot of shows around that same time started speeding up the camera as a special effect of sorts. By no means was MV the only one. 

[RedDragon86]

11 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

The proverbial “prison episode” is definitely not a new or original idea, by any means!! From the 60s-90s, it seemed like every crime/cop show had to do the prison & boxing episodes...like they were prerequisites or something! They were always the same and basically became predictable & seriously overdone “fillers”!  

“Red Tape” was just kind of boring & just didn’t have the ‘punch’ that several of the other episodes did. Not a terrible episode, but not that great either...not as pathetic as “Viking Bikers” or “Showbiz”...but still a fairly weak one.

They may not have used the “speedy camera” idea for special effects in first season, but then they have to include longer & more scenes of the boat or car chases...and then everyone seems to whine & complain about long those scenes are, or too much of them (such as the boat race/chase in “Great McCarthy”...although I love that episode). 

So, I think to cut down on the length of those scenes, also try & make the chase look faster and ‘wilder’ (although it was a poor-mans way of doing special effects...but that’s what TV had back then), and open up more room for other action or plot scenes, a lot of shows around that same time started speeding up the camera as a special effect of sorts. By no means was MV the only one. 

I am a certain they only used the speeding up in S3. In "Baseballs of Death" there was no speed up in that boat chase.

The way they filmed it like that I think was all down to Enrique Bravo Sr leaving in my opinion.

 As for "Walk Alone" it was the first prison ep in the show and it was a clever plot as well, the way the warden deals the drugs in and out of prison.

 "Showbiz" is so bad I don't even watched it, definitely a skipped episode.

Michael Carmine is an embarrassment. 

 

Edited July 4, 2021 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

27 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

I am a certain they only used the speeding up in S3. In "Baseballs of Death" there was no speed up in that boat chase.

The way they filmed it like that I think was all down to Enrique Bravo Sr leaving in my opinion.

 As for "Walk Alone" it was the first prison ep in the show and it was a clever plot as well, the way the warden deals the drugs in and out of prison.

 "Showbiz" is so bad I don't even watched it, definitely a skipped episode.

Michael Carmine is an embarrassment. 

 

They may not have used the camera speedup idea with every car or boat chase scene...it may have depended on what the scene entailed. If it was more elaborate with a boat jumping out of the water onto a highway, or a car flying around a corner that in reality you’d flip if going that fast...they may have chosen to use the speedy-camera to try and make it supposedly fast-n-furious.  If they’d of shown it in reality of what they did, it might have been too slow & wouldn’t have worked for that particular action scene. 

It didn’t matter if “Walk-Alone” was the first prison episode for MV...the prison episode idea had already been done way too many times in way too many shows before! So, whether they had 1 or 10...the prison & boxing episodes of any shows by even the 80s were automatically going to be seriously predictable, boring, and overdone. 

 I fully agree, “Showbiz” is a terrible and pathetic episode! I want to skip it when going through the show, but I usually skip two other episodes of the show: “Missing Hours”-(worst episode of the entire television industry, let alone MV), and then later in last season “Miracle Man”. I usually have a rule I can’t skip episodes when fully going through a series again, but with those two episodes I usually make an exception, lol.  So, I feel like most of the others I need to watch even if I’m up around doing other things as they’re playing. 

(P.S.: “Viking Bikers From Hell” is another pathetic and terrible episode! I also want to skip it, but sometimes force myself to at least have it playing, while I might be doing other things, so I can say I’ve watched it again when going through the show, lol!)

Edited July 4, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[RedDragon86]

2 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

They may not have used the camera speedup idea with every car or boat chase scene...it may have depended on what the scene entailed. If it was more elaborate with a boat jumping out of the water onto a highway, or a car flying around a corner that in reality you’d flip if going that fast...they may have chosen to use the speedy-camera to try and make it supposedly fast-n-furious.  If they’d of shown it in reality of what they did, it might have been too slow & wouldn’t have worked for that particular action scene. 

It didn’t  matter if “Walk-Alone” was the first prison episode for MV...the prison episode idea had already been done way too many times in way too many shows before! So, whether they had 1 or 10...the prison & boxing episodes of any shows by even the 80s were automatically going to be seriously predictable, boring, and overdone. 

 I fully agree, “Showbiz” is a terrible and pathetic episode! I want to skip it when going to the show, but I usually skip two other episodes of the show: “Missing Hours”-(worst episode of the entire television industry, let alone MV), and then later in last season “Miracle Man”. I usually have a rule I can’t skip episodes when fully going through a series again, but with those two episodes I usually make an exception, lol.  So, I feel like most of the others I need to watch even if I’m up around doing other things as they’re playing. 

I think its a form of torture to watch Mikey doing that Elvis thing on stage.

You are right there were prisons episodes in shows in the 80s but still "Walk Alone" did have smart and interesting plot, they way they dealt and trafficked drugs.

Other shows like Magnum PI and the A-Team did the typical thing, lets help the guy escape plot. 

 

[ViceFanMan]

Just now, RedDragon86 said:

I think its a form of torture to watch Mikey doing that Elvis thing on stage.

You are right there were prisons episodes in shows in the 80s but still "Walk Alone" did have smart and interesting plot, they way they dealt and trafficked drugs.

Other shows like Magnum PI and the A-Team did the typical thing, lets help the guy escape plot. 

 

Yeah, the Elvis impersonation thing is really bad...I cringe when watching that part. Sometimes I FF through it.   Mikey losing-it outside the theater & Crockett  having to handcuff him to a post, was also really bad! 

Lots of shows from the 60s through even the 90s did the prison & boxing episodes. The basic idea & premise is the same & predictable.

The prison idea: there’s illegal activity of some kind going on in the prison & prison officials/employees are involved. One or a couple of the main stars has to go in undercover as a prisoner to help expose them & stop it. Of course they get found out, and the bad guys are going to kill him in the prison, and the rest of the cast have to come rushing in at the last moment and save them.

The boxing idea: a young, “innocent” and up-and-coming boxer has a possible good boxing career ahead of him...which means fame & notoriety...which means money. Some gangster/drug dealer/bad guy of course wants to take control of this young boxer’s career so he can cash in. A poor but honest coach refuses, the gangster usually has him killed, and it takes our show-stars to finally stop the gangster.

There were probably slight changes with each show’s versions of these...but the ideas or premises were basically the same thing every time! 

I liked other episodes, such as this one,  “Crooked-Hooker”-(as I jokingly call it ) as they were something different & not totally predictable. 

[MrsEvanFreed]

On 7/4/2021 at 10:29 AM, wolfie1996 said:

I read that he was having a relationship with  someone while filming in Toronto or somewhere while supposedly with Barbra and she heard about it and flew up there and confronted him and it said he offered her a "non-monogamous marriage"! She then told him to sling his hook and I don't blame her. I suspect one of her attractions was that she was rich and influential. When asked to describe her "in three words" on a later TV interview, he said "Funny, funny, and funny." Hardly very flattering.

 Must have been while he was filming Dead Bang.

 Part of that one was shot in Canada.

 

[Jack Gretsky]

I'm not a big Melanie Griffith fan (although I like her in Something Wild, Stormy Monday, Body Double and Pacific Heights), but she's good as the "Miami Madam" here.  (This plotline was probably inspired by the real life "Mayflower Madam" case in the 1980s.) Izzy has the classic "boudior" set-up, there's a good teaser, and overall this is a watchable, but not outstanding episode.  

[Sebax]

For me, it is one of the best episodes of season 3.

In Theresa, Sonny acted like, well.. a simp. But here, he shows some self-respect, putting the work and dignity before his feelings.

Great acting, great directing. There was never a boring moment. And I loved watching Izzy once again. I don't get the rubber bands in that guy , and the TV interview wasn't very 'credible'.

9/10

[fakespyder]

I can't shake the feeling the line Takei says about "it is unfortunate Christine neglected to tell me about her new found love of the law" was added in after the fact.

Bare with me...

You don't actually see him say those words. The camera cuts to Sonny then Christine. While it is not unusual to cut away to another character, I think the producers saw the scene in post and thought it wasn't clear enough why they opened fire on C&T.

I'm thinking originally the scene goes from Takei saying "I'd like to give you my thought for the day" then walking silently to Christine and giving his actual thought "A lie is an ugly thing"

Sonny and Rico realize then their cover is blown only after he says that. Then all hell breaks loose.

Adding that line in after the fact would also explain why it sounds slightly different, more like a voice-over, than the rest of the scene's dialog.

Just my theory.

Great episode btw.

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, fakespyder said:

I can't shake the feeling the line Takei says about "it is unfortunate Christine neglected to tell me about her new found love of the law" was added in after the fact.

Bare with me...

You don't actually see him say those words. The camera cuts to Sonny then Christine. While it is not unusual to cut away to another character, I think the producers saw the scene in post and thought it wasn't clear enough why they opened fire on C&T.

I'm thinking originally the scene goes from Takei saying "I'd like to give you my thought for the day" then walking silently to Christine and giving his actual thought "A lie is an ugly thing"

Sonny and Rico realize then their cover is blown only after he says that. Then all hell breaks loose.

Adding that line in after the fact would also explain why it sounds slightly different, more like a voice-over, than the rest of the scene's dialog.

Just my theory.

Great episode btw.

Interesting theory...I have an original, uncut NBC airing (syndicated rerun—aka home video versions edited and/or cut quite a bit of certain scenes) and I’ve never really paid that much attention to that one line...I’m wondering if it sounds or comes across that way originally too? Also, another thought is, was it added in later as they felt it was needed...or was it always planned as a voiceover line to be added in, so the cameras could cut over to where they needed to?

[fakespyder]

What you said about the original airing is a good point. The sound difference might be related to the blu ray . I had not considered that. I watched it in 5.1. I'll have to check out the 2.0 track that also comes with the disks.

But you're right. Either way they added it in intentionally.

Like I said, just a theory.

[Dadrian]

So are we to just imagine whatever we want as to how Togaru made C&T for cops at the end? Or have I missed something all these years?

[Miami Beau]

6 hours ago, Dadrian said:

So are we to just imagine whatever we want as to how Togaru made C&T for cops at the end? Or have I missed something all these years?

Yeah this was never explicitly explained as the episode quickly wraps up after the final showdown. I got the impression Togaru discovered the wire Von Marburg was wearing before or after they had sex. He kept his mouth shut and entertained the idea of making a deal with them. Ultimately with this knowledge, he planned to kill all three of them but failed.  

[ViceFanMan]

3 minutes ago, Miami Beau said:

Yeah this was never explicitly explained as the episode quickly wraps up after the final showdown. I got the impression Togaru discovered the wire Von Marburg was wearing before or after they had sex. He kept his mouth shut and entertained the idea of making a deal with them. Ultimately with this knowledge, he planned to kill all three of them but failed.  

Either that, or I always just figured Togaru looked very in-depth into the so-called backgrounds of the new partners (meaning Crockett & Tubbs) Christine was suddenly so insistent on, and somehow had enough contacts or informants of his own, that he discovered they were really undercover Vice cops. 

[apocalypse]

Not my favorite episodes but a solid, entertaining one anyway.

But it has one remarkable acting performance by Izzy. As the video title says. Amazing.

 

[Dadrian]

2 hours ago, apocalypse said:

Not my favorite episodes but a solid, entertaining one anyway.

But it has one remarkable acting performance by Izzy. As the video title says. Amazing.

 

As far as “knowing your role and knocking it out of the park” goes, Izzy is right there with Jan Hammer for me—easily one of my favorite parts of the show. 

[johnnyfarragut]

This one is in my top five Season 3 episodes, along with 'El Viejo', 'Theresa', 'Shadow In The Dark' and 'Knock Knock Who's There?'. Here's the episode script in case someone's interested:

miami vice-by hooker by crook.pdf

 

 

[ViceFanMan]

5 hours ago, johnnyfarragut said:

This one is in my top five Season 3 episodes, along with 'El Viejo', 'Theresa', 'Shadow In The Dark' and 'Knock Knock Who's There?'. Here's the episode script in case someone's interested:

miami vice-by hooker by crook.pdf 1.96 MB · 1 download

 

 

Agree...all of those are awesome Season 3 episodes!  

[johnnyfarragut]

CROCKETT: What happened to your neck?

IZZY: Uh, this is the, uh, Erich von Stroheim school of directors. It's European discipline. It's a grand illusion, no?

Izzy is referencing Jean Renoir's movie La Grande Illusion, more specifically the character played by Eric von Stroheim.

Wasn't this series supposed to be very superficial or something like that?

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by johnnyfarragut