Episode #61 "The Afternoon Plane"

[ViceFanMan]

11 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

Help:

Okay who can tell me exactly what is implied by Sally Cordoba’s past concerning Calderone? I usually just overlook it because she is a terrible actress in this role, but tonight I’m ready to figure it out. 

She says she “owed him” for getting her out of New York, and Rico says “and you paid the debt”. 

What am I missing?

I’m not exactly sure, either...other than supposedly she was from NYC, and had known Tubbs in the past. Whether they had been romantically involved at one point in time or not, or he’d known her working some crime while still in NY, I’m not sure?  

I’m guessing she had been a girlfriend of and/or involved with drug lord people there, and at some point in time had to leave and went to the island in the Bahamas. The Calderone family is probably the drug lord people that helped get her out of NY & escape prosecution...and that’s what Tubbs was referring to. 

[Tom]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Dadrian:

Help:

Okay who can tell me exactly what is implied by Sally Cordoba’s past concerning Calderone? I usually just overlook it because she is a terrible actress in this role, but tonight I’m ready to figure it out. 

She says she “owed him” for getting her out of New York, and Rico says “and you paid the debt”. 

What am I missing?

I always thought with „you paid the debt“ he meant that Sally got stuck on the island in the middle of nowhere, basically held hostage like everyone else on the island as she had nowhere else to go and Calderone could track her down.

[Dadrian]

36 minutes ago, Tom said:

she had nowhere else to go and Calderone could track her down.

Do we know why Calderone “got [her] out” or why he would want to keep track of her? I feel like the script is suggesting something that I’m missing, but maybe not. 

[Tom]

vor 52 Minuten schrieb Dadrian:

Do we know why Calderone “got [her] out” or why he would want to keep track of her? I feel like the script is suggesting something that I’m missing, but maybe not. 

No. I’ve only got the same episode as you at my disposal. Going by Calderone‘s (junior) history in Sons and lovers I would assume that he deems all women as his „property“ and always did favors just to make people owe him something in return for later when he needed it. I always understood these insinuations in the Afternoon plane in this context of character and situation. The whole story here hinged on the idea that Calderone carefully planned this island trap over a long time because he did not dare to confront Tubbs in Miami, with Sally and others being „forced actors“ to play along to support the plot. 

I always found that „plan“ idea ridiculous and stupid, because it is against Calderone‘s impulsive character shown earlier when he killed his sister. He was just a young kid on revenge for his father’s death (and wrongfully blaming Tubbs as Crockett killed his father!) and not an intelligence mastermind genius with lot of patience and self control. He would rather send killers to Miami or plant a bomb under Tubbs‘ car rather than spending months in planning to lure him out somewhere. Would have much easier as well to kill Tubbs in Miami as he knew where he was and lived for sure. That writer’s logic was always beyond me and a main reason why I strongly dislike this end of the Calderone saga.

Maybe you can find writer/director David Jackson and ask him?

Edited August 23, 2022 by Tom

[Dadrian]

Despite us somehow having only the “same” episode  , I think you just helped me discover what I was missing @Tom

Edited August 23, 2022 by Dadrian

[Dadrian]

(the above post will not let me edit/continue typing)

The Calderone that “got [Sally] out” was Orlando—not his dad. I somehow always thought it was the dad, but now it makes way more since. Thanks @Tom!  

Edited August 23, 2022 by Dadrian

[ViceFanMan]

26 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

The Calderone that “got [Sally] out” was Orlando—not his dad. I somehow always thought it was the dad, but now it makes way more since.

In some form or fashion, Sally was part of the Calderone family “orbit”...as Tubbs would say, lol.  It obviously went back to all of their NYC days...and Estabon Orlando Sr. (who we know as the original Calderone) had part of his drug empire/organization there.

So, for whatever reason the family had Sally eventually relocated to the Bahamas. It could have been Sr. that had her originally sent there...as I got the impression she’d been living there quite a while. But, it was Orlando Jr. that ended up using her & her past relationship (exactly what kind, we don’t really know?) with Tubbs to carry out his revenge plan, once Tubbs was on the island. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by ViceFanMan

[Dadrian]

@ViceFanMan I think Tubbs and Sally’s relationship must have been “serious” (“Whatever that means” - Tubbs, Nobody Lives Forever) as Sally says “[they] would have only broken each others’ hearts” (or something) if she stayed. Also she did not deny she was in love with Tubbs when Alicia asked her—only that it was “ancient history”. 

As for the exact details to Sally’s Calderon father/son ties with her, I guess we’ll just have to let @Robbie C. sort that out with a back story sometime.  
 

However @Tom’s explanation of Orlando’s intent/control seems to be the most believable angle—and God knows this episode needs all the help it can get on the believability department!  
 

Thanks to all of you for the replies. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Dadrian

[ViceFanMan]

8 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

@ViceFanMan I think Tubbs and Sally’s relationship must have been “serious” (“Whatever that means” - Tubbs, Nobody Lives Forever) as Sally says “[they] would have only broken each others’ hearts” (or something) if she stayed. Also she did not deny she was in love with Tubbs when Alicia asked her—only that it was “ancient history”. 

As for the exact details to Sally’s Calderon father/son ties with her, I guess we’ll just have to let @Robbie C. sort that out with a back story sometime.  
 

However @Tom’s explanation of Orlando’s intent/control seems to be the most believable angle—and God knows this episode needs all the help it can get on the believability department!  
 

Thanks to all of you for the replies. 

True...although it doesn’t exactly say, I’ve always gotten the impression that they had a romantic relationship back when they were all still in NYC.  I don’t think there is a specific relationship between Sally and either Estabon or Orlando...other than somehow she was part of their drug organization.  

That’s probably how she and Tubbs first met, if Tubbs was already trying to find Calderone to take revenge for his brother’s death originally, or even before his brother’s death if he was helping his brother investigate the family to begin with.

We really aren’t given specifics of how Sally ties in with the Calderone family, other than she is part of the whole organization somehow.  She was just ultimately used by Orlando as a manipulation tool for Tubbs, as part of the revenge plan.

This episode was not very well done, and is a very weak conclusion to the whole Calderone saga. So yes, the believability is rather ridiculous. 

[Dadrian]

@Robbie C. we’re feeding you lots of ideas here…  

[Robbie C.]

2 hours ago, Dadrian said:

@Robbie C. we’re feeding you lots of ideas here…  

I saw that. Working on other stuff now, but I do have a Zito concept on the back burner.

Although I happen to agree with Tom that this episode is pretty much broken. It has decent elements, and would have made more sense had it been some kind of standalone episode (or maybe if someone had been after her instead of Tubbs). But as soon as they tried to tie it back to Calderone (too little, too late in my view) it broke beyond redemption. The whole Calderone element was badly-handled by Vice pretty much from the beginning, and only got worse as the show went on.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Robbie C.
added stuff

[RedDragon86]

The handling of the Calderone saga leading up to Sons & Lovers" was perfectly fine, after that we only had this mediocre episode. Honestly I can't stand it.

The only problem was the resolution of Tubbs son but that was after season 2 and the people to blame are Dennis Cooper or Richard Brams.

[ViceFanMan]

5 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

The handling of the Calderone saga leading up to Sons & Lovers" was perfectly fine, after that we only had this mediocre episode. Honestly I can't stand it.

The only problem was the resolution of Tubbs son but that was after season 2 and the people to blame are Dennis Cooper or Richard Brams.

Agreed...the whole Calderone storyline was really good up to “Sons & Lovers”!  But, after that it was ultimately handled/ended very poorly.  

It almost seems like the new writers & producers decided (way after the fact), to actually return to a beginning plotline & try to end it once and for all. But, they never really watched, paid attention, or even cared about what all transpired with the Calderone story arch. They just haphazardly threw something together and expected fans to like it.  

[Robbie C.]

39 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

The handling of the Calderone saga leading up to Sons & Lovers" was perfectly fine, after that we only had this mediocre episode. Honestly I can't stand it.

The only problem was the resolution of Tubbs son but that was after season 2 and the people to blame are Dennis Cooper or Richard Brams.

More like a saga of missed opportunities. Here you have a character who's directly responsible for bringing Tubbs to Miami (and kicking off the show), and he's factored in only a handful of times before being killed off? But it's not too surprising when you consider storytelling was really kind of secondary in Vice a fair amount of the time.

[ViceFanMan]

I think the Calderone storyline was originally planned on being ended during the first season...with Calderone himself being killed off. But, they found some interesting ways to return to it/continue it in Season 2. But, after that it was ruined & not approached or concluded in a good way at all. 

[Miami Beau]

Some good points raised and I guess it’s ultimately up to the audiences interpretation as the script leaves much to the imagination.
 

The way the saga was handled in season 3 was very poor. Even on paper, before production ever began, producers should of realised they had a poor script. Why couldn’t Crockett and the OCB team not show up at the end to save Tubbs.
Ok fine, let’s go with it the way it is, but why handle Orlando Calderones death like he was a second rate henchman? I don’t know if I should blame director David Jackson or the editor of this episode, but the fast pace hasty end with Tubbs picking up Alicia was literally a slap in the face to the fans of this show. There absolutely should of been a moment of reflection with Tubbs after the shooting. Perhaps having Tubbs look down at the dead body of Orlando. Either way, let the audience take a moment to digest what just happened.
But the producers lackadaisical approach, made the death meaningless. And if that was the slap in the face, the kick in the balls was the recasting of John Leguzamo in season 5 

[RedDragon86]

22 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

I think the Calderone storyline was originally planned on being ended during the first season...with Calderone himself being killed off. But, they found some interesting ways to return to it/continue it in Season 2. But, after that it was ruined & not approached or concluded in a good way at all. 

I think the killing off early of Esteban was to do with Gregory leaving and Edward joining, his exit altered the story imo. It actually a blessing and we were in for an exciting conclusion and act of revenge.

I would rather see Castillo joining and Rodriquez and Esteban killed off than prolonging it into another season because it  wouldn't have worked both ways, Esteban would have lived and EJO would not have joined 

It was a simple case of forcing their hand, Calderone was a dead man in season 1.

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

32 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

I think the killing off early of Esteban was to do with Gregory leaving and Edward joining, his exit altered the story imo. It actually a blessing and we were in for an exciting conclusion and act of revenge.

I would rather see Castillo joining and Rodriquez and Esteban killed off than prolonging it into another season because it  wouldn't have worked both ways, Esteban would have lived and EJO would not have joined 

It was a simple case of forcing their hand, Calderone was a dead man in season 1.

 

Maybe...whether it was already planned or not, whatever the case the death of Calderone worked out well to tie in the exiting of Gregory Sierra & open the door for Edward James Olmos.

Even if Sierra had stayed, and they hadn’t hired EJO, I think they’d of probably found a different way/storyline to still deal with Calderone...but ultimately how it played out & came about worked very well! 

[Swevicus]

Well, now... this episode feels like a kick in both nuts. I was really expecting a showdown between Tubbs and Orlando (although, really, it should have been Crockett), but what we get is a High Noon clone, and a quarter-assed one (one step lower than half-assed). Less a story and more a Rube Goldberg device in television form. At least PMT gets to shine for a change (by this point, the show was morphing, if not had morphed, into The Adventures of Sonny Crockett).