Episode #61 "The Afternoon Plane"


Ferrariman

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2 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

Maybe the seasons finale, I always thought the series finale should have been about the return of Lao Li, and set in Thailand. I don't know how this would work but he gets released from prison after serving 4 years, maybe to do with corruption. So the story would be that Castillo gets kidnapped from his home late at night and taken to Thailand, the team noticed that Marty hasn't shown up for work 2 days running and get worried. I don't really know how to build on this but you guys can put a bit of input into it if you like. And the return of John Santucci and Joan Chen is a must.

Cool plot idea for a return of Lao Li, and another good episode featuring more of Castillo and his ex-wife :clap:, and it could have been used as the season finale...but I don’t feel this would be a good series finale.

Although all of the cast made this show work, if we’re going to be honest it was mainly about Crockett and Tubbs. Everyone had their moments and/or episodes, which was awesome! But C&T were the ‘stars’...the series started with them and the Calderone family/saga...and the series finale should’ve  ended with that. 

Ive enjoyed writing stories of my own, as well as writing fanfic stories of TV shows I like. So, the possibilities for either plot line (Calderone or Lao Li) are limitless. :thumbsup: However, by this time any new fanfics would have to take place in the past themselves. ;) 

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Calderone was dead. His son was dead. Unless you want to get into the whole "uncle of Calderone" junk that plot line is more or less done. Tubbs could find his son, but in terms of family threat it's a dead end. Crockett never had a viable long-term antagonist until season 3, and he finished him off by the next season. The only one out there to resurrect would be Maynard, which would lead to a decent blended mix of Maynard, Lao Li, and the rest. Of course you'd have to shift Maynard to the Far East, but that wouldn't be a big issue. If you want to get Tubbs involved, have Valerie be there chasing some cousin or another and get grabbed by the bad guys.

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23 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Calderone was dead. His son was dead. Unless you want to get into the whole "uncle of Calderone" junk that plot line is more or less done. Tubbs could find his son, but in terms of family threat it's a dead end. Crockett never had a viable long-term antagonist until season 3, and he finished him off by the next season. The only one out there to resurrect would be Maynard, which would lead to a decent blended mix of Maynard, Lao Li, and the rest. Of course you'd have to shift Maynard to the Far East, but that wouldn't be a big issue. If you want to get Tubbs involved, have Valerie be there chasing some cousin or another and get grabbed by the bad guys.

Referring to the plot of the episode Afternoon Plane, Calderone’s son was not dead! That was the whole point—of using that idea as the series finale, and seriously improving on how it was carried out...instead of some half-hearted, rushed-together episode as ‘Afternoon’ ended up being. 

The Calderone family probably was even more vast than what we got to know or see...‘uncle’ or not. ;) Their family was always nemeses to Crockett and Tubbs. That plot was always sort of a backstory with the show, and it should have been the special 2-hr series finale, instead of the  disappointing episode that it ultimately was. :(

The Lao Li episode was really good for a Castillo-shining moment, but not necessarily worthy of the MV finale. I’ll be honest and say I did not really like the Maynard/Capt. Real Estate episodes. Crockett’s Vietnam days were okay to refer back to somewhere in the show, but the episodes were kind of pointless...Capt. Real Estate gets away and Stone dies. Okay?? Not really something the series would use as its actual finale. 

The series should have had a superbly written 2-hr finale regarding Calderone, Jr and his revenge...and it should have been against & involved both Crockett and Tubbs (scratch Afternoon Plane, in other words). 

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Calderone was always Tubbs' major menace. That was the angle that was constantly developed. In my view any linkage they tried to create with Crockett was always forced. He never really mentioned Eddie again after the pilot. Calderone had as much traction as Crockett's major nemesis as Maynard, which shows you how poorly Vice developed those concepts. And you're using superbly written in the context of a show that always had issues with that concept, sadly. Some episodes were spectacular, while others simply weren't. Sadly I think the latter outnumbered the former. And in that context, Calderone was a backstory to the pilot and parts of the first season, not the whole show. More specifically, Calderone was Tubbs' backstory. If Crockett had such a thing it would have been Maynard, and even that's a bit of a reach. Hackman was the closest he really had, and they waited until season 3(!) to bring him out of the woodwork.

By the time of the wrap, Calderone's son was dead. They'd already made "The Afternoon Plane" so you can't backtrack on that. Any attempt to resurrect them would have been the whole "half uncle" kind of thing. Besides, if it was Crockett's show doesn't he deserve closure with the only real menace (Maynard) he had left?

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51 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

(snipped)The series should have had a superbly written 2-hr finale (snipped)

I agree so much with this!  Although I feel like Freefall did bring one of the major themes to fruition, for me it was ultimately an unsatisfying ending.  

I would also have liked to see it end with the closure of some plot aspect that involved both C&T.   Letting Tubbs find out his son was alive and being able to have the chance to initiate some relationship with him would have been satisfying, but I agree with Robbie C that 1) ultimately that would have put Crockett in the background, which wouldn't have been fair to the star character; and 2) Crockett and Tubbs didn't really share a common nemesis, especially once Calderone's son was dead (Crockett actually killed Calderone, so why wasn't Calderone, Jr. fixated on Crockett rather than/at least equally as much as Tubbs?  I think that's a fair question.)  I still would have liked for Tubbs to have that closure, but maybe not as the series finale.

For a series finale, If the people in charge could have come up with some new conflict that brought Maynard and Crockett back into conflict, it could have worked, I think.  Not sure what that might have been, although I always wondered if Maynard was involved with the CIA or even maybe a double agent. 

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51 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Calderone was always Tubbs' major menace. That was the angle that was constantly developed. In my view any linkage they tried to create with Crockett was always forced. He never really mentioned Eddie again after the pilot. Calderone had as much traction as Crockett's major nemesis as Maynard, which shows you how poorly Vice developed those concepts. And you're using superbly written in the context of a show that always had issues with that concept, sadly. Some episodes were spectacular, while others simply weren't. Sadly I think the latter outnumbered the former. And in that context, Calderone was a backstory to the pilot and parts of the first season, not the whole show. More specifically, Calderone was Tubbs' backstory. If Crockett had such a thing it would have been Maynard, and even that's a bit of a reach. Hackman was the closest he really had, and they waited until season 3(!) to bring him out of the woodwork.

By the time of the wrap, Calderone's son was dead. They'd already made "The Afternoon Plane" so you can't backtrack on that. Any attempt to resurrect them would have been the whole "half uncle" kind of thing. Besides, if it was Crockett's show doesn't he deserve closure with the only real menace (Maynard) he had left?

Calderone was not just Tubbs’ nemesis! Both of them were after him in the pilot (for different reasons, but still both), and he tried to assassinate Crockett later...not Tubbs. Each of them had their personal enemies with other episodes or storylines...but only Calderone and/or Calderone family involved both Crockett and Tubbs. 

The Lao Li and Capt Real Estate episodes were okay for what they were...but they were not worthy of a series finale. It wasn’t just Crockett’s show...it was Crockett & Tubbs’ show!! :baby: Therefore we needed a special finale to involve both. 

Again, my point was if they had not done Afternoon Plane, but used the same idea (but better written) for the series finale instead. I know some episodes were awesome, others were so-so, others were terrible. But if the writers had truly focused on what started the show, what was a background storyline during the 1st seasons, and put all effort forth they could have created a superb finale. 

Sadly, Afternoon Plane was done, and the series  finale used was a huge let-down (my opinion). :(  But I still wouldn’t have wanted Maynard or Lao Li as a finale either. The Hackman storyline  would have been okay as a finale...but he was Crockett’s nemesis only (not Tubbs’ as well), and he too was already dead, as Sonny already shot him. 

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You're not looking at the full plot picture. Crockett never took Calderone the same way Tubbs did, so he WASN'T Crockett's main adversary in a plot sense. If he were, Crockett would have gone after him with the same determination he went after Hackman. Or might have gone after Maynard if the guy had stayed in the US. But he never did. Tubbs was the one with the rage, the anger, you need to actually create an antagonist-protagonist relationship. The point of the finale, I think, was to send some kind of message about the futility of the war on drugs (a big message point at the time).

Vice had moved on from the pilot. You can't circle back to it unless you have compelling plot reasons to do so, and by the time of Freefall they didn't. Had OCB been dealing with the Calderone organization steadily throughout the course of the series (which they didn't) it might have made sense. Maynard and Lao Li tie in with the growing lack of faith in Federal law enforcement, which HAD been a constant thread in Vice from the very beginning (remember Scotty Wheeler?). A convergence like that would have come full circle, especially with a few plot twists thrown in centered on (perhaps) Stan's gambling or Gina's Cuban roots. But they didn't, so it is what it is.

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3 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

I agree so much with this!  Although I feel like Freefall did bring one of the major themes to fruition, for me it was ultimately an unsatisfying ending.  

I would also have liked to see it end with the closure of some plot aspect that involved both C&T.   Letting Tubbs find out his son was alive and being able to have the chance to initiate some relationship with him would have been satisfying, but I agree with Robbie C that 1) ultimately that would have put Crockett in the background, which wouldn't have been fair to the star character; and 2) Crockett and Tubbs didn't really share a common nemesis, especially once Calderone's son was dead (Crockett actually killed Calderone, so why wasn't Calderone, Jr. fixated on Crockett rather than/at least equally as much as Tubbs?  I think that's a fair question.)  I still would have liked for Tubbs to have that closure, but maybe not as the series finale.

For a series finale, If the people in charge could have come up with some new conflict that brought Maynard and Crockett back into conflict, it could have worked, I think.  Not sure what that might have been, although I always wondered if Maynard was involved with the CIA or even maybe a double agent. 

Maynard was clearly an asset of some sort. Not necessarily a CIA officer, but one of those shady guys who existed before the private military contractor become a "thing." It would have been incredibly easy to plot, honestly. I can think of at least six different scenarios that would have brought them into conflict, along with Lao Li and even some third cousin twice removed of the Calderone clan if it came to that.

The whole Calderone thing was broken by the end of season 2 for a number of reasons (you touch on one above), so write them out. There's still enough to patch something together.

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2 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

You're not looking at the full plot picture. Crockett never took Calderone the same way Tubbs did, so he WASN'T Crockett's main adversary in a plot sense. If he were, Crockett would have gone after him with the same determination he went after Hackman. Or might have gone after Maynard if the guy had stayed in the US. But he never did. Tubbs was the one with the rage, the anger, you need to actually create an antagonist-protagonist relationship. The point of the finale, I think, was to send some kind of message about the futility of the war on drugs (a big message point at the time).

Vice had moved on from the pilot. You can't circle back to it unless you have compelling plot reasons to do so, and by the time of Freefall they didn't. Had OCB been dealing with the Calderone organization steadily throughout the course of the series (which they didn't) it might have made sense. Maynard and Lao Li tie in with the growing lack of faith in Federal law enforcement, which HAD been a constant thread in Vice from the very beginning (remember Scotty Wheeler?). A convergence like that would have come full circle, especially with a few plot twists thrown in centered on (perhaps) Stan's gambling or Gina's Cuban roots. But they didn't, so it is what it is.

I’m fully considering the full plot picture! :) Once again...Calderone and the family were always adversaries of both Crockett and Tubbs (the reasons for each was not the point, the point was he was a main bad guy for them together)! I’m sorry, but there isn’t any other nemesis that was after both. All the other bad guys were more “personalized” for only that character, in that episode.

The Calderone saga was dropped basically after the 2nd season because of new writers. But it was never fully “completed” or concluded. If they had used their brains, not done Afternoon Plane, and returned to Calderone, Jr & Tubbs’ son, and the ultimate revenge for one last showdown for the series finale it would have been superb! 

As I’ve stated before, the show started with Calderone and/or the family as the main nemesis of BOTH Crockett and Tubbs...they should have concluded with that, and tied it up once and for all. 

All the other bad guys and/or plot lines (some were awesome...some were not) were not worthy of returning to for a special 2-hr series finale. A season finale (or premiere for that matter) maybe...but not the finale of the entire show. 

 

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What you neglect to consider is CROCKETT didn't consider Calderone a major adversary. Tubbs was the one with major history with the family. I get that you personally feel the Calderone family was public enemy #1, but the flow of the show just doesn't sustain that view. For Tubbs, based on his reactions to them and ties, yes. For Crockett, no matter how it's spun, no. Any finale involving them would have felt like some kind of throwback, and likely a weak one. Had they done more to keep the Calderone family prominent during the series (after season 2 at least) it MIGHT have worked. But even if you did that, other characters would have unresolved issues. That's not how you do a good finale.

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2 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

What you neglect to consider is CROCKETT didn't consider Calderone a major adversary. Tubbs was the one with major history with the family. I get that you personally feel the Calderone family was public enemy #1, but the flow of the show just doesn't sustain that view. For Tubbs, based on his reactions to them and ties, yes. For Crockett, no matter how it's spun, no. Any finale involving them would have felt like some kind of throwback, and likely a weak one. Had they done more to keep the Calderone family prominent during the series (after season 2 at least) it MIGHT have worked. But even if you did that, other characters would have unresolved issues. That's not how you do a good finale.

I understand you don’t think Crockett considered Calderone a main adversary...but my point is that’s not true! He WAS a main adversary for Crockett from the beginning...as he originally was the main cocaine supplier (known only as “The Colombian” then) that was causing deaths and crime in Miami, and Vice couldn’t figure out how to catch him. Then, Crockett’s partner is blown up by Calderone, and later when he tried to assassinate Crockett and his family & did assassinate Lt. Rodriguez...gee, I think he suddenly became even more of an adversary of Sonny’s, than Tubbs! :baby: Calderone was an adversary of Tubbs because he’d had Tubbs’ brother killed earlier in New York. 

Again...the reasons Calderone was a main nemesis for each may have been different...but regardless of how you “spin” it he was a main adversary for BOTH! Again...the Calderone saga was a popular and background storyline for the first seasons...which were the most popular seasons by most fans. The Lao Li or Capt. Real Estate plots were not as popular, nor as remembered. New writers were the cause of abandoning the Calderone storyline...not because it wasn’t popular, and most fans were ticked because it was never fully resolved. 

At the end of the series, when because of weird and bizarre episodes (although some good ones were “sprinkled” in as well) ratings were at an all-time low and the show was cancelled, they could have, and should have returned to the Calderone story one last time and tied up all the loose ends for good. It would have gone over and been accepted as an awesome series finale, much better than the one used. Even if it hasn’t been used for a while...returning to one of the most popular plots of a TV show one last time, is how you do a good finale! 

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1 hour ago, Matt5 said:

Loved this episode, great locations,music and Tubbs!

The locations and music were awesome! :thumbsup: But, overall I felt the Calderone storyline needed a better and more in-depth conclusion. They should have just done this one as some past criminal Tubbs put away, got out and is trying to exact revenge...and not made it a Calderone one. 

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  • 10 months later...

Some of the direction is unusually bland for Miami Vice. I would have personally done a montage where Tubbs, in his hiding place, reflects on his previous encounters with the Calderone family and intercut the footage with the plane coming in to land. He'd clutch his gun and look into the camera as the rock music reaches its conclusion. The whole episode just feels pedestrian and lame despite PMT trying his best to make it exciting.  2/10

 
 
 
 
 

 

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I found it neither good nor bad. I fell asleep twice trying to watch the episode, and once I made it to the end. Not the best recommendation... And this has never happened to me on any other episode of MV.
It´s a pity that Alicia is never mentioned again. I honestly don't know if she'll die or survive in the end.

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2 hours ago, IzzyFan99 said:

Some of the direction is unusually bland for Miami Vice. I would have personally done a montage where Tubbs, in his hiding place, reflects on his previous encounters with the Calderone family and intercut the footage with the plane coming in to land. He'd clutch his gun and look into the camera as the rock music reaches its conclusion. The whole episode just feels pedestrian and lame despite PMT trying his best to make it exciting.  2/10

 
 
 
 
 

 

Its so bad that I don't even count it as a Calderone episode.

Such a tacky and lazy way to follow up on Sons and Lovers. The writers were hopeless, they should have sat down and wrote this properly so it really connects and is plausible.

This should have been a 9 out of 10 because of the material they were working with. I don't even rate it.

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5 hours ago, IzzyFan99 said:

Some of the direction is unusually bland for Miami Vice. I would have personally done a montage where Tubbs, in his hiding place, reflects on his previous encounters with the Calderone family and intercut the footage with the plane coming in to land. He'd clutch his gun and look into the camera as the rock music reaches its conclusion. The whole episode just feels pedestrian and lame despite PMT trying his best to make it exciting.  2/10

 
 
 
 
 

 

 

2 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

Its so bad that I don't even count it as a Calderone episode.

Such a tacky and lazy way to follow up on Sons and Lovers. The writers were hopeless, they should have sat down and wrote this properly so it really connects and is plausible.

This should have been a 9 out of 10 because of the material they were working with. I don't even rate it.

Definitely lame and a huge letdown with the Calderone saga! If it had been done right, the plot idea could have been a good “revival-tool”, to bring the show back to its roots...or a good series finale to go out on. But, sadly the writers seriously failed & we ended up with this rushed, shoved-together, convoluted, poorly done mess. :(

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4 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

 

Definitely lame and a huge letdown with the Calderone saga! If it had been done right, the plot idea could have been a good “revival-tool”, to bring the show back to its roots...or a good series finale to go out on. But, sadly the writers seriously failed & we ended up with this rushed, shoved-together, convoluted, poorly done mess. :(

Imagine had they opened season 3 with another two hour episode like the previous seasons?  The obvious starting point would be a follow up to "Sons and Lovers", which "The Afternoon Plane" desperately fails at.  I would have loved to have seen an opening like the first two seasons.  "The Afternoon Plane" isn't a terrible episode, it's just a terrible way to end the Calderone story.  To make matters worse, the producers decided to bring Leguizamo back in season 5.?(:thumbsdown:?(

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6 hours ago, Mr. Vigilante said:

Imagine had they opened season 3 with another two hour episode like the previous seasons?  The obvious starting point would be a follow up to "Sons and Lovers", which "The Afternoon Plane" desperately fails at.  I would have loved to have seen an opening like the first two seasons.  "The Afternoon Plane" isn't a terrible episode, it's just a terrible way to end the Calderone story.  To make matters worse, the producers decided to bring Leguizamo back in season 5.?(:thumbsdown:?(

Completely agree! :thumbsup: 

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One of the reasons was imo, and even  though season 3 is strong, once the show entered the third season it felt disconnected from the first 2. Everything became brand new and forgetful of what went on before, original characters and ideas diminished.

Its like season 1&2 was its own show, then what came after was reinvention. 

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18 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

 

Definitely lame and a huge letdown with the Calderone saga! If it had been done right, the plot idea could have been a good “revival-tool”, to bring the show back to its roots...or a good series finale to go out on. But, sadly the writers seriously failed & we ended up with this rushed, shoved-together, convoluted, poorly done mess. :(

More like the producers failed. We have no idea what they turned down or rejected or sent back for revisions. And it was bad on Vice all the way through. I just think by season 3 the ‘new’ had worn off and it was perhaps more noticeable, along with style changes. 

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39 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

One of the reasons was imo, and even  though season 3 is strong, once the show entered the third season it felt disconnected from the first 2. Everything became brand new and forgetful of what went on before, original characters and ideas diminished.

Its like season 1&2 was its own show, then what came after was reinvention. 

I agree. I think the show was effected by the new direction, that was taken for the 3rd season replacing old crew members and producers/directors like John Nicolella for instance. I believe they also brought in new writers. Michael Mann left Dick Wolff in charge, who had another/different vision for the show and style in how to tell the stories. 

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33 minutes ago, summer84 said:

I agree. I think the show was effected by the new direction, that was taken for the 3rd season replacing old crew members and producers/directors like John Nicolella for instance. I believe they also brought in new writers. Michael Mann left Dick Wolff in charge, who had another/different vision for the show and style in how to tell the stories. 

Way to many changes. Has there ever been show with this many changed before? no wonder it felt so different after season 2. I don't know if anybody feels the same way but what else is noticeable to me is Don Johnson is different as Crockett after S2. Between 1&2 he was sort of the strong silent type, already burnt out and brooding which a love, like Steve McQueen in Bullitt or William Petersen in To Live and Die in LA. In S3 & 4 he comes across as a cocky, louder, happier detective.

I like S3 quite a lot but after 2 the show also lost that special feel, the vibe it was famous for.

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1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said:

Way to many changes. Has there ever been show with this many changed before? no wonder it felt so different after season 2. I don't know if anybody feels the same way but what else is noticeable to me is Don Johnson is different as Crockett after S2. Between 1&2 he was sort of the strong silent type, already burnt out and brooding which a love, like Steve McQueen in Bullitt or William Petersen in To Live and Die in LA. In S3 & 4 he comes across as a cocky, louder, happier detective.

I like S3 quite a lot but after 2 the show also lost that special feel, the vibe it was famous for.

Yes the show went through a drastic transformation. I did noticed that too, Crockett's personality was different more serious and darker as the tone of the show became darker as well along with the storylines and style. But I had to get used to the haircut as well, which really bothered me. :) I felt, he showed a more charming side of him in the first two seasons, although he always had that temper. Even though as you said it didn't have the S1 and S2 vibe and atmosphere it is still a decent watchable season story wise, where as we know it became a mess in S4. 

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5 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

More like the producers failed. We have no idea what they turned down or rejected or sent back for revisions. And it was bad on Vice all the way through. I just think by season 3 the ‘new’ had worn off and it was perhaps more noticeable, along with style changes. 

I agree...I think both producers & writers dropped the proverbial ball for MV, with strange new directions they took the show, as well as bizarre and/or poor scripts/plots for episodes. This definitely hurt the show, and sadly by the end of 3rd/start of 4th season fans were starting to give up. But, this plot/script for “Afternoon Plane”  should have definitely been rejected right back at the writers, with orders to seriously re-do & improve it! 

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