Robbie C. Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 I never cared for either this relationship or the character of Theresa. I felt she was too thin. I also find it interesting that people complain about possible time compression with the Caitlin arc but are totally ok with it here. For me it works even less here. Sonny dealt with junkies all the time. To believe that she managed to hide this part of herself that long and then suddenly come undone when it suits the plot just doesn't work for me. And yes, I know junkies spend most of their time hiding their addictions, but she was shooting smack. Sonny would know the signs. So would many of the people she worked with. One reason some may "buy" this relationship is it's framed strictly on Sonny's terms. Setting shots on the St Vitus Dance. Him sort of doing a Brenda all over again. There are no hints things could be complicated. It's comfortable and in some ways familiar. Sonny's off on his white horse again to save fair maiden, or at least look good on her arm. I also found it very convenient that he'd forgive her for setting him up and getting officers killed...this from the same guy who wrote off his old partner and also leaned on his old girlfriend to try to get information on a loan shark (which ended up getting her killed). I get that people like it, but I just can't buy the package. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Robbie C. said: I never cared for either this relationship or the character of Theresa. I felt she was too thin. I also find it interesting that people complain about possible time compression with the Caitlin arc but are totally ok with it here. For me it works even less here. Sonny dealt with junkies all the time. To believe that she managed to hide this part of herself that long and then suddenly come undone when it suits the plot just doesn't work for me. And yes, I know junkies spend most of their time hiding their addictions, but she was shooting smack. Sonny would know the signs. So would many of the people she worked with. One reason some may "buy" this relationship is it's framed strictly on Sonny's terms. Setting shots on the St Vitus Dance. Him sort of doing a Brenda all over again. There are no hints things could be complicated. It's comfortable and in some ways familiar. Sonny's off on his white horse again to save fair maiden, or at least look good on her arm. I also found it very convenient that he'd forgive her for setting him up and getting officers killed...this from the same guy who wrote off his old partner and also leaned on his old girlfriend to try to get information on a loan shark (which ended up getting her killed). I get that people like it, but I just can't buy the package. I know some don’t care for Theresa or the episode, and everyone has their opinions—but I gotta be honest, the thin-thing cracks me up! To each his own, and I’m truly not trying to be rude or mean...but I am not attracted to “big” girls, and I don’t think Crockett was either, lol. So, I don’t see an issue with her weight. The time compression, so-to-speak, with Crockett’s relationships was pretty convoluted throughout the series, lol. But, I think it comes down to how it was portrayed and how they had the characters carry it out, as to if one was considered more memorable/meaningful or “buyable”, as you put. Again, even though we visually saw Caitlyn in a few more episodes than Theresa, the way everything progressed and how they had Caitlyn’s relationship with Crockett develop was ridiculously rushed & forced! Theresa’s was more relaxed and we were given the impression she & Sonny had been dating & together for a while. Brenda...one of the most annoying, unattractive, and definitely “wrong-ones” Crockett dated! My opinion, but I never have considered her a serious possibility for Sonny...just one of those ridiculous-flings he eventually broke up with. This has turned into a much longer paragraph than she needs, so forgetting her and back to Theresa... As for plots...well, the plot called for Theresa to finally have her addiction exposed in this episode, so that’s when it was going to happen. I realize why some may think that because Crockett dealt with junkies a lot he should have immediately seen the signs. But, let’s not forget that Theresa was not your proverbial garden-variety junkie...she was a doctor and knew how much to do & not overdose, and how to professionally hide it. She also did not immediately start out on illegal street-smack. She first started out with prescribed pain killers for her back. So it’s not like she’d been doing “junk” for a couple years or more. Sometimes even people who deal with some kind of problem or illegal activity as a job/profession, for various reasons don’t immediately (or want) to see the signs in family, friends, or significant-others. I didn’t really see the stereotypical “signs” a lot in the episode, but there were sort of a few. I think it all comes down to which girl you liked for Crockett, or the one you thought might be a serious relationship for him. Personally I will always think of Gina as being the best bet for Sonny...but thanks to writer changes, that got stupidly squelched. Brenda and others were never considered serious in my opinion. Just annoying, bad taste on Crockett’s part for reasons I don’t understand, lol! Caitlyn was nice, sort of attractive, and was not a druggie! But, again, the chemistry was not there & everything about her was rushed & forced for a ridiculous ratings boost attempt. I just liked Theresa and who she was...except for the drugs. That was the tragedy part of her character. I thought the performances were awesome, and the destruction drugs cause accurately portrayed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicegirl85 Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 7 hours ago, ViceFanMan said: I know some don’t care for Theresa or the episode, and everyone has their opinions—but I gotta be honest, the thin-thing cracks me up! To each his own, and I’m truly not trying to be rude or mean...but I am not attracted to “big” girls, and I don’t think Crockett was either, lol. So, I don’t see an issue with her weight. (snipped) Just a really quick comment here but I interpreted Robbie's statement of Theresa "thin"-ness as a comment on the character's development and background we were given, and no relation to her weight. I agree that there was no real history or background to the character aside from the brief appearance in the previous episode. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDragon86 Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) Didn't she say that she had back problems and was taking medication for it. That is a good cover. Edited March 4, 2021 by RedDragon86 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt5 Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 30 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said: Didn't she say that she had back problems and was taking medication for it. That is a good cover. Yes she did - very good cover. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie C. Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, vicegirl85 said: Just a really quick comment here but I interpreted Robbie's statement of Theresa "thin"-ness as a comment on the character's development and background we were given, and no relation to her weight. I agree that there was no real history or background to the character aside from the brief appearance in the previous episode. That is exactly what I was talking about. Thank you. And her being a doctor doesn’t speak to her being able to control her addiction. She’d been warned for abusing prescription drugs before as I recall, and she’s going to have no control over street dope. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, vicegirl85 said: Just a really quick comment here but I interpreted Robbie's statement of Theresa "thin"-ness as a comment on the character's development and background we were given, and no relation to her weight. I agree that there was no real history or background to the character aside from the brief appearance in the previous episode. Gotcha...that explanation actually makes more sense! 7 hours ago, RedDragon86 said: Didn't she say that she had back problems and was taking medication for it. That is a good cover. If I remember correctly, yes she did explain to Crockett that she'd had chronic back pain stemming from some accident or something...and she started out on prescription pain meds & sadly became addicted. When she could no longer get a hold of those, even being a doctor, she sadly turned to street drugs to try and compensate. Not a "cover", or justifiable excuse (Theresa's...or mine ), but sadly what happened & why she ended up addicted to drugs. 6 hours ago, Robbie C. said: That is exactly what I was talking about. Thank you. And her being a doctor doesn’t speak to her being able to control her addiction. She’d been warned for abusing prescription drugs before as I recall, and she’s going to have no control over street dope. The explanation of the "thin" remark by vicegirl85 makes sense...it's just when you've stated how much you don't like Theresa and then said she was too thin for you, I thought you were referring to her physical appearance, too, lol! I realize that some may consider the character-arch too "thin", but, in my opinion she came across genuine and heartfelt enough, that I didn't need much of a buildup. I'm sorry, but I still say that being a doctor Theresa would know, for a while, how to control her addiction & hide it from everyone better than your street-junkie...especially since she did not start out on street drugs. Eventually, and over time, yes her addiction would become very evident & obvious...but it was not there yet, and it was not even because she was showing that many stereotypical "signs" that got her exposed anyway. It was her dealings with the street-drug people & the subsequent compromise it caused on a case Crockett was working on, that ultimately got her found-out. Edited January 17, 2020 by ViceFanMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie C. Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 It’s not that easy to hide, and she had been warned by the Board as I recall. But if you like the character it’s easy to overlook those kind of plot holes or flaws. I didn’t consider her especially sympathetic so I don’t overlook those holes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) On 1/17/2020 at 3:22 PM, Robbie C. said: It’s not that easy to hide, and she had been warned by the Board as I recall. But if you like the character it’s easy to overlook those kind of plot holes or flaws. I didn’t consider her especially sympathetic so I don’t overlook those holes. I like the character, yes...but she definitely had flaws. I’m not one to automatically make every character I like perfect, so-to-speak, nor do I “overlook” the problems, so-called holes, or flaws. I’ve pretty well stated what Theresa’s problems were! But, if you really dislike the character and episode, it’s easy to make everything into a supposed flaw or problem. I never said it was “easy” to hide her addiction...but as a doctor & medical professional, yes, Theresa would know how to hide the addiction better & longer than the stereotypical druggie. I don’t believe the board knew about her addiction up until this episode, or they would have already yanked her medical license. I don’t think she dealt with the board until her addiction, and subsequent actions stemming from the addiction, were finally exposed. She was a good, caring person and doctor...she just sadly made bad choices & they cost her. This showed what drugs can do to not only the addict but everyone else around them, too. If you liked the episode or character you wanted her to get help and stop...but ultimately she couldn’t without professional help. This made me “sympathize” with her character & what she was going through. Edited October 30, 2022 by ViceFanMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie C. Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 No, they had worked in a warning for medication abuse that supposedly happened prior to the episode. That was part of the reason she turned to the street...to cover her tracks. In any case the lead in to both the relationship and engagement was thin...much thinner than the one they used for Caitlin. We're given a couple of episodes to get used to Caitlin and understand what's going on...in this we're left to assume and conjecture. Hard to say it's ok in one instance and suddenly not ok in the next, dontcha think? And if Theresa ever had her addiction under "control" she wouldn't have raised eyebrows by exceeding her dosage and ending up in the situation she did. Vice was ahead of its time in this instance...many of the opioid addicts now START with prescription meds and turn to heroin when they can't get the RX stuff anymore. And Theresa couldn't have hidden it with a street supplier...she'd have no way of really controlling the dose or purity of what she was shooting. Granted. she makes a nice damsel in distress for Sonny to try to rescue, but that's about it. This was another episode that had some potential, and might have had more if they bothered to turn it into an arc of a couple of episodes. But in the end, at least for me and some others, it falls short. Sort of like the "Gina falls for bad guy, gets hurt" episodes, but it's "Sonny falls for player (again) and gets hurt." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Robbie C. said: No, they had worked in a warning for medication abuse that supposedly happened prior to the episode. That was part of the reason she turned to the street...to cover her tracks. In any case the lead in to both the relationship and engagement was thin...much thinner than the one they used for Caitlin. We're given a couple of episodes to get used to Caitlin and understand what's going on...in this we're left to assume and conjecture. Hard to say it's ok in one instance and suddenly not ok in the next, dontcha think? And if Theresa ever had her addiction under "control" she wouldn't have raised eyebrows by exceeding her dosage and ending up in the situation she did. Vice was ahead of its time in this instance...many of the opioid addicts now START with prescription meds and turn to heroin when they can't get the RX stuff anymore. And Theresa couldn't have hidden it with a street supplier...she'd have no way of really controlling the dose or purity of what she was shooting. Granted. she makes a nice damsel in distress for Sonny to try to rescue, but that's about it. This was another episode that had some potential, and might have had more if they bothered to turn it into an arc of a couple of episodes. But in the end, at least for me and some others, it falls short. Sort of like the "Gina falls for bad guy, gets hurt" episodes, but it's "Sonny falls for player (again) and gets hurt." Perhaps the medical board had warned her earlier about trying to get a hold of prescription pain meds too much of the time...I don’t necessarily remember that particular part? But, even so I don’t think they knew about an actual addiction...or they would have yanked her license. Lots of times people with chronic pain will eventually be denied opioids because they’ve gone through enough prescriptions that a possible addiction is considered. Theresa originally had her addiction under control, to an extent...she was able to hide it and even function with little or no problem/s. However, like any addiction it eventually takes over & controls your life to the point you don’t have it under any kind of control anymore. But, as I stated before, Theresa wasn’t even quite to that point yet (although she was headed there)...it was her actions with the drug dealer that comprised Crockett’s case, that ultimately got her addiction exposed. Again, even though we visually saw Caitlyn more than Theresa...how they developed the relationship with Caitlyn & portrayed everything was ridiculously forced & rushed. The relationship with Theresa (even though we didn’t have a visual buildup) came across much more natural & relaxed. And, again, we were given the impression she & Crockett had been together for a while prior...whereas the relationship & subsequent marriage to Caitlyn was in a matter of a couple weeks! I realize there’s no way her & Crockett’s relationship could work out, once we realize Theresa has an addiction problem...I just liked the character, saw her potential, and could see them making a ‘go’ of it—if the drugs hadn’t been an issue. Perhaps this episode was a little ahead of its time...but I think the opioids to street drugs issue has been a problem for years. The media just exploits it more nowadays, so we constantly hear about it more than in the 80s. But street druggies usually go for street drugs immediately, for escape or pleasure, whereas people with chronic pain issues will usually start out with prescription pain killers from doctors—but once that’s no longer an option, then sometimes they resort to street drugs. Edited January 17, 2020 by ViceFanMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie C. Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 To me it didn’t come across as natural or relaxed at all...if anything it felt like a rehash or Brenda but with a drug problem. Maybe you wanted to see Sonny with a particular type of woman so this allows you to see it as more natural. But the fact remains that you can level every criticism you have about the Caitlin arc at this episode with equal validity. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicegirl85 Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 55 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said: Perhaps the medical board had warned her earlier about trying to get a hold of prescription pain meds too much of the time...I don’t necessarily remember that particular part? But, even so I don’t think they knew about an actual addiction...or they would have yanked her license. Lots of times people with chronic pain will eventually be denied opioids because they’ve gone through enough prescriptions that a possible addiction is considered. (snipped) The show didn't get too specific about exactly what led the Board of Medicine to warn her. But the fact is that many states have Impaired Physician programs (just barely getting a start back in the 80s, I think) and retain their medical license under very specific controlled circumstances. Physicians can self-report abuse of pain medication, alcohol, etc. They have to go through some kind of program, submit to random drug tests, and report to someone in the program on a regular basis. Their access to narcotics is restricted, even for treating patients. It doesn't matter if they admit to an addiction or not, if they have been found to be over-using controlled substances, etc. or diverting narcotics from patients, it doesn't matter if they are diagnosed with an addiction or not. These programs are available to nurses and probably other health professionals as well. My thought was that Theresa had been reported for diverting drugs from patients (for her own use), and either entered such a program or promised never to do it again, etc. (for purposes of the show I could buy this, LOL) 1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said: Again, even though we visually saw Caitlyn more than Theresa...how they developed the relationship with Caitlyn & portrayed everything was ridiculously forced & rushed. The relationship with Theresa (even though we didn’t have a visual buildup) came across much more natural & relaxed. And, again, we were given the impression she & Crockett had been together for a while prior...whereas the relationship & subsequent marriage to Caitlyn was in a matter of a couple weeks! Well... it was implied that Crockett and Theresa had been dating for awhile, but I can't even imagine the scenario where he would have met her, disclosed he was a cop, and they found enough common interests that they dated for a few months. The backstory for the relationship doesn't really add up, i.e. there is none. Whereas, whether anyone likes Caitlin or not, it was shown how she and Crockett met. He never had to hide the fact that he was a cop, so she knew him for his true identity from the start. There was instant dislike on his part (before he knew anything real about her past) but once he found out why she was in protective custody he truly admired her integrity. He and Caitlin went through a life-or-death experience together and released the aftershock of that in a bout of life-affirming sex. I agree, the relationship was rushed, but it did actually have a good buildup and backstory, while the relationship with Theresa did not. At the time, I did not like the episodes that dealt with Crockett's and Caitlin's life together after they married, but Bren10 made a really good point to the effect that the pressures of both of their jobs would have made it very hard to maintain a relationship. I'll have to rewatch those episodes with that in mind! 1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said: But street druggies usually go for street drugs immediately, for escape or pleasure, whereas people with chronic pain issues will usually start out with prescription pain killers from doctors—but once that’s no longer an option, then sometimes they resort to street drugs. I think this may be a little oversimplified. People with chronic pain have become addicted to prescription medication and later turned to street drugs, but who's to say that some "street druggies" didn't start with attempts to relieve chronic pain or self-medicate for some other problem? And chronic pain patients who do turn to street drugs can fall just as hard and as far as someone who starts out looking for other things from their use of street drugs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, vicegirl85 said: The show didn't get too specific about exactly what led the Board of Medicine to warn her. But the fact is that many states have Impaired Physician programs (just barely getting a start back in the 80s, I think) and retain their medical license under very specific controlled circumstances. Physicians can self-report abuse of pain medication, alcohol, etc. They have to go through some kind of program, submit to random drug tests, and report to someone in the program on a regular basis. Their access to narcotics is restricted, even for treating patients. It doesn't matter if they admit to an addiction or not, if they have been found to be over-using controlled substances, etc. or diverting narcotics from patients, it doesn't matter if they are diagnosed with an addiction or not. These programs are available to nurses and probably other health professionals as well. My thought was that Theresa had been reported for diverting drugs from patients (for her own use), and either entered such a program or promised never to do it again, etc. (for purposes of the show I could buy this, LOL) Well... it was implied that Crockett and Theresa had been dating for awhile, but I can't even imagine the scenario where he would have met her, disclosed he was a cop, and they found enough common interests that they dated for a few months. The backstory for the relationship doesn't really add up, i.e. there is none. Whereas, whether anyone likes Caitlin or not, it was shown how she and Crockett met. He never had to hide the fact that he was a cop, so she knew him for his true identity from the start. There was instant dislike on his part (before he knew anything real about her past) but once he found out why she was in protective custody he truly admired her integrity. He and Caitlin went through a life-or-death experience together and released the aftershock of that in a bout of life-affirming sex. I agree, the relationship was rushed, but it did actually have a good buildup and backstory, while the relationship with Theresa did not. At the time, I did not like the episodes that dealt with Crockett's and Caitlin's life together after they married, but Bren10 made a really good point to the effect that the pressures of both of their jobs would have made it very hard to maintain a relationship. I'll have to rewatch those episodes with that in mind! I think this may be a little oversimplified. People with chronic pain have become addicted to prescription medication and later turned to street drugs, but who's to say that some "street druggies" didn't start with attempts to relieve chronic pain or self-medicate for some other problem? And chronic pain patients who do turn to street drugs can fall just as hard and as far as someone who starts out looking for other things from their use of street drugs. There very likely could be programs where doctors and nurses who have reported addictions, are allowed to still work with strict supervision. Perhaps this is what Theresa was in? However, I don’t really remember that part being brought up in the episode. But, if she had been warned by the medical board, I figured it was probably for mis-use of prescription painkillers—which is what she originally got addicted to. If they knew she was shooting up “smack” in the hospital, trust me she’d have been gone, LOL! I’m sorry, but I’m still sticking with what I’ve said about the whole Theresa versus Caitlyn, LOL. Theresa knew that Crockett was a cop...he hadn’t hid that from her. They had been together & built their relationship for a while, even though we weren’t told exactly how long. We were shown how Crockett and Caitlyn met, yes. But, even though she had more visual appearances than Theresa, the “buildup” was ridiculous—to get serious enough for marriage, anyway! Within a couple weeks of Crockett trying to be her bodyguard from killers while despising each other, then suddenly they like each other instead & hey, lets get married! It was a forced & rushed attempt by producers/writers to get back ratings...and you could tell. NEITHER relationship was going to work out, though. Drugs ruined Theresa’s—and a rushed marriage on-top of serious career & lifestyle differences destroyed Caitlyn’s (although sadly Hackman ended up killing her). As for the street druggie...usually they have turned to drugs for an escape (from problems in life) or to try and deal with/get through their daily lives—some also for pleasure. I’m sure there are some that also turn to street drugs to deal with some form of physical or chronic pain. But for those, they lots of times go straight to street drugs, rather than try to get a hold of prescription pain meds first. For a doctor, however, it’d be easier to get a hold of prescription pain meds first...then turn to street drugs once they can’t get the prescription ones as easily anymore. Edited January 18, 2020 by ViceFanMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 (edited) On 1/17/2020 at 6:40 PM, Robbie C. said: To me it didn’t come across as natural or relaxed at all...if anything it felt like a rehash or Brenda but with a drug problem. Maybe you wanted to see Sonny with a particular type of woman so this allows you to see it as more natural. But the fact remains that you can level every criticism you have about the Caitlin arc at this episode with equal validity. Well, I never wanted to see Sonny with a druggie. I did like Theresa as she came across as genuine, down-to-earth, caring, and with a personality. This made her & Crockett’s relationship seem relaxed & natural. If that’s the “type” of woman you’re referring to, then yes...I would have liked to see him with a woman like that. But, sadly the drugs overshadowed those other aspects with Theresa. Brenda, and some of the others were not genuine, caring, or down to earth. There was nothing relaxed or natural about them...they were about themselves and what they wanted or could get out of it in that moment. Caitlyn definitely was a genuine and caring person, and she wanted the marriage to work. But, regardless of how many appearances she had, the buildup of her & Crockett’s “relationship” and immediate subsequent marriage was majorly forced and rushed! It was doomed from the start. And if we think about it...they were showing that in the episodes, as their marriage was already failing when Hackman killed the poor girl. Despite how “wrong” I think she was for Sonny, I still liked her character...I didn’t want her to die. But, I actually don’t mind the whole Caitlyn-saga, as to me it accurately portrayed how ridiculous it was for them to rush into a marriage as quickly as they did, and then except their lives to be “fairytale” with the career-demands & lifestyles they both had. Edited October 30, 2022 by ViceFanMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicegirl85 Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 9 hours ago, ViceFanMan said: Caitlyn definitely was a genuine and caring person, and she wanted the marriage to work. But, regardless of how many appearances she had, the buildup of her & Crockett’s “relationship” and immediate subsequent marriage was majorly forced and rushed! We are in agreement on this--I felt the beginning of the relationship and even the physical consummation was realistic in reaction to the circumstances, but the seemingly immediate leap to marriage was (for me as well) forced and unbelievable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie C. Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, vicegirl85 said: We are in agreement on this--I felt the beginning of the relationship and even the physical consummation was realistic in reaction to the circumstances, but the seemingly immediate leap to marriage was (for me as well) forced and unbelievable. Yet people are willing to accept the same sort of leap with Theresa. That's one of the areas this episode fails for me. Not only that, we have NO conception that Theresa's lifestyle would have harmonized with Sonny's any more than Brenda's did (and I feel that's a better relationship comparison than Caitlin for a number of reasons, some of which I already outlined). The main difference is, I think, Brenda wasn't intended to be an especially sympathetic character, while Theresa was (to further the episode's plot agenda). Liking the episode for how it shows Sonny dealing with the loss of yet another relationship is great. Trying to say the relationship was somehow more solid than Caitlin's (for example) really misses the mark in my view. And Caitlin didn't get cops killed. Brenda got Tubbs beaten up. Or at least her actions with Crockett resulted in him missing his assignment which led to Tubbs being beaten. Theresa's addiction and actions led to the death of officers and Sonny almost being framed for it. I'd say the similarities are much stronger between those two relationships. And I'm not saying you said any of that, ViceGirl. Your quote just helps frame the discussion. Edited January 18, 2020 by Robbie C. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 (edited) On 1/18/2020 at 10:39 AM, Robbie C. said: Yet people are willing to accept the same sort of leap with Theresa. That's one of the areas this episode fails for me. Not only that, we have NO conception that Theresa's lifestyle would have harmonized with Sonny's any more than Brenda's did (and I feel that's a better relationship comparison than Caitlin for a number of reasons, some of which I already outlined). The main difference is, I think, Brenda wasn't intended to be an especially sympathetic character, while Theresa was (to further the episode's plot agenda). Liking the episode for how it shows Sonny dealing with the loss of yet another relationship is great. Trying to say the relationship was somehow more solid than Caitlin's (for example) really misses the mark in my view. And Caitlin didn't get cops killed. Brenda got Tubbs beaten up. Or at least her actions with Crockett resulted in him missing his assignment which led to Tubbs being beaten. Theresa's addiction and actions led to the death of officers and Sonny almost being framed for it. I'd say the similarities are much stronger between those two relationships. And I'm not saying you said any of that, ViceGirl. Your quote just helps frame the discussion. I agree, both Brenda and Theresa’s actions caused their relationships with Crockett to fail. But, Brenda’s was to try and force Sonny to conform to her lifestyle, whereas Theresa’s was because of an addiction...yet, she seemed more willing to be part of Crockett’s life despite her job & demands associated with it. So, Brenda is not even in the “running” like Theresa & even Caitlyn were. I agree, Theresa is meant to be a sympathetic character...as was Caitlyn in her own way. I just feel the way they had the relationships develop was different. The way they had Caitlyn rush into marriage was ridiculous! Going along with the Brenda-ploy, Caitlyn ultimately expected Sonny to conform to her career & demands—whereas she would sometimes be gone for weeks/months (sometimes out of the country)—and her career ultimately threatened Crockett & his job & undercover role. But, as I said before I actually think they accurately portrayed what a bad decision they had made, as the marriage was already failing by the time she was killed. Theresa would not have to leave the city/country, her career in itself would not threaten Sonny’s job (her addiction did that), and again she seemed more willing to be part of Crockett’s life rather than expecting him to only conform to hers. If drugs had not been a problem I think Theresa’s relationship could have lasted and/or they could have made it work. Caitlyn’s, as nice as she was, was doomed from the ‘get’. Their careers & demands associated with them, were never going to mesh or allow the marriage to last. (Note: Confused emojis don’t make it any less true, and there’s really nothing to be “confused” about. ) Edited October 30, 2022 by ViceFanMan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 3 hours ago, vicegirl85 said: We are in agreement on this--I felt the beginning of the relationship and even the physical consummation was realistic in reaction to the circumstances, but the seemingly immediate leap to marriage was (for me as well) forced and unbelievable. Exactly! I understand their initial physical attraction for each other...but they barely had gotten to know each other before they rushed into marriage. It was ridiculous and I actually think they portrayed that accurately as the marriage was failing by the time she was killed by Hackman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicegirl85 Posted January 19, 2020 Report Share Posted January 19, 2020 10 hours ago, Robbie C. said: (snipped) we have NO conception that Theresa's lifestyle would have harmonized with Sonny's any more than Brenda's did (and I feel that's a better relationship comparison than Caitlin for a number of reasons, some of which I already outlined). The main difference is, I think, Brenda wasn't intended to be an especially sympathetic character, while Theresa was (to further the episode's plot agenda). Liking the episode for how it shows Sonny dealing with the loss of yet another relationship is great. Trying to say the relationship was somehow more solid than Caitlin's (for example) really misses the mark in my view. (snipped) And I'm not saying you said any of that, ViceGirl. Your quote just helps frame the discussion. That's OK--I had basically said the same thing as far as Theresa and Crockett having anything in common that would have helped them have a long-term bond. I enjoyed the ep when it aired (Theresa) but we are given no basis for the relationship or why Crockett feels marriage is the next step. The show seemingly tried to indicate Crockett and Theresa had been together for awhile and she knew he was an undercover cop--but why? How did they even meet? And just because two people are sexually compatible it doesn't follow that an ER doctor and an undercover cop have common interests. They're never even seen socializing with other people. While I also think the marriage to Caitlin was rushed, I think the backstory for that relationship makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicegirl85 Posted January 19, 2020 Report Share Posted January 19, 2020 10 hours ago, ViceFanMan said: Exactly! I understand their initial physical attraction for each other...but they barely had gotten to know each other before they rushed into marriage. It was ridiculous and I actually think they portrayed that accurately as the marriage was failing by the time she was killed by Hackman. I agree they rushed into marriage and they certainly struggled afterward in their relationship. I honestly feel they weren't suited for the long term (and really Crockett was not suited to marriage to anyone for the long term IMO). 'But to say the marriage was failing by the time Caitlin was killed is making a bit of a leap, I think. I felt that both of them were still trying to make it work. Caitlin was happy about the pregnancy--although Sonny had brushed her off when she tried to tell him--his usual "Can it wait? I"m really busy right now" --and Crockett regretted brushing her off and made a little extra effort to get to her concert, bringing flowers. So I think they were still trying and motivated to succeed in the marriage. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViceFanMan Posted January 19, 2020 Report Share Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) On 1/18/2020 at 9:54 PM, vicegirl85 said: I agree they rushed into marriage and they certainly struggled afterward in their relationship. I honestly feel they weren't suited for the long term (and really Crockett was not suited to marriage to anyone for the long term IMO). 'But to say the marriage was failing by the time Caitlin was killed is making a bit of a leap, I think. I felt that both of them were still trying to make it work. Caitlin was happy about the pregnancy--although Sonny had brushed her off when she tried to tell him--his usual "Can it wait? I"m really busy right now" --and Crockett regretted brushing her off and made a little extra effort to get to her concert, bringing flowers. So I think they were still trying and motivated to succeed in the marriage. I actually agree that probably Crockett wasn’t really suited for marriage...at least not while a Vice cop. If he had eventually chosen a different division of law enforcement then maybe. But I’m not sure he could have ever done that? Regardless of what some try to claim, I will always say that if a relationship was going to possibly last with his career...it would be with Gina! She was also a Vice cop, completely understood the job & its demands (had to perform them herself), and she even understood Crockett himself! No...I don’t see it as a “leap” at all to say that Crockett & Caitlyn’s marriage was failing. The episodes after the ‘marriage’ one pretty much showed that—and accurately/realistically so! True, Caitlyn wanted the marriage to work, and the newly discovered pregnancy was some positive news for once, for her. I also think if Hackman hadn’t killed her, they would have stayed married longer because of the baby (than if she hadn’t been pregnant). But, even though some try it, a baby is not the automatic “salvation” of a struggling marriage. Eventually, Crockett & Caitlyn would have still divorced—especially when Sonny would not leave his job...for her or the baby, as Caitlyn would have expected him to do. She was already expecting him to conform to her career & lifestyle before the pregnancy. But, again...she didn’t really know Crockett before rushing into the crazy marriage! But, if it wasn’t with Gina then I still say Theresa was the next possible candidate. They had supposedly been dating much longer than he had Caitlyn (although we didn’t have as much of a visual buildup—but I didn’t really need one with her), Theresa seemed to be okay with Sonny’s job & its demands, and they seemed much more natural and happy together than he had been with Caitlyn. However, the drugs of course ruined the relationship with Theresa. (P.S. Laughing or confused emojis don’t make it any less true. ) Edited January 20, 2020 by ViceFanMan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebax Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 Sadly, I didn't like this ep. The worst part, was the obvious Wyatt stunt double in the final fight. I mean.. why? It wasn't a difficult scene to act! Didn't like Sonny attitude during the episode either. That's not the personality he had shown so far. I give it a 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadrian Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sebax said: The worst part, was the obvious Wyatt stunt double in the final fight. I mean.. why? It wasn't a difficult scene to act! On stuff like this I always have to remind myself: Sadly, the directors and producers could never have dreamed the show would be under such high definition scrutiny years later. On a 20” CRT monitor across the living room through a possibly not-so-good signal reception in 1986 it probably wasn’t that noticeable. You’re certainly right to cringe at it now, though. It can’t be missed on even the DVDs, much less the Blu Rays! Oh well—you take the good with the bad... Edited December 27, 2020 by Dadrian 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebax Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 1 hour ago, Dadrian said: On stuff like this I always have to remind myself: Sadly, the directors and producers could never have dreamed the show would be under such high definition scrutiny years later. On a 20” CRT monitor across the living room through a possibly not-so-good signal reception in 1986 it probably wasn’t that noticeable. You’re certainly right to cringe at it now, though. It can’t be missed on even the DVDs, much less the Blu Rays! Oh well—you take the good with the bad... You're completely right, thanks for that reminder 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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