Episode #59 "The Savage" ("Duty & Honor")

[Tom]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb RedDragon86:

Michael Wright is truly exceptional as the serial killer, he is up there with Tom Noonan in Manhunter, Karlheinz Bohm "Peeping Tom" Anthony Perkins "Psycho" for authenticity. 

His performance was real and not over the top hollywood phony.

Agree. Interesting that you did not mention Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs. From MV, I also found David Schramm very convincing as Dr. Halliwell in Asian Cut. His kinda helpless shivering and mood changing face expressions in the final scene with Trudy are top notch.

[RedDragon86]

6 hours ago, Tom said:

Agree. Interesting that you did not mention Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs. From MV, I also found David Schramm very convincing as Dr. Halliwell in Asian Cut. His kinda helpless shivering and mood changing face expressions in the final scene with Trudy are top notch.

The antagonist in Asian Cut is personified evil, the way he act towards the UK reported after he breaks in his home is so devilish.

Hopkins as Hannibal L imo is too cartoonish and unrealistic as the good Dr. Brian Cox brings it home as the Bundy type and not some sort of caged Count Dracula.

"Fly Fly Fly Clarice" he is so hammy.

Edited February 13, 2021 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

Watched this one again the other night...these were pretty much my original thoughts:

I love this one...a very "dark" and even gorier episode than usual. The plotline, acting, and directing were awesome and kept you captivated throughout! Not sure if "The Savage" was the original working title...then it was later changed to "Duty and Honor"? But, I'd always known it as "Duty"...but later found out it was also known as "The Savage"--which actually fits better in my opinion.

The action with the car chase and gun play were awesome and you never knew what The Savage would do next...that dude was freaky and seriously vicious!! Michael Wright did a superb job of portraying a psychotic and mentally disturbed killer! I really liked Castillo's past with this one, too, and tying in with the present murders.

Coleman was the true "savage" and I loved the end when he gets the knife in the chest. The Savage was just Coleman's "savage" weapon for his own sick assassinations. Coleman also irritated the crap out of me every time he purposely mispronounced Castillo's name, like some "hick"---actually pronouncing the L's instead of using the E sound!

The music in this one was superb as well, with Anything by The Damned, Blood and Roses by Smithereens, White Rabbit by Jefferson Airplane, and some Jan Hammer music is always perfect!  Cool filming locations in this one too...and I love the end scene where Crockett and Tubbs meet Castillo on the beach with a letter from his friend. The beach, water, and sky were so gorgeous they were almost surreal!

This was also the introduction to, and the first episode that included Crockett's new girlfriend Dr. Theresa Lyons. She was probably the only other girl besides Gina that Crockett dated, that I thought was hot!  Anyway, I really thought Helena Bonham Carter, who played Theresa, was beautiful and wish she could have stayed on longer...but as we all know the very next episode, "Theresa" which focused on her, did not have that come about.  But, this one's a wild and mesmerizing one...I originally gave it an 8, and still stand by that!

[Jack Gretsky]

I always like the Castillo-centric stories, especially the ones dealing with his Vietnam past.  Dr. Haing S. Ngor has a fascinating biography.  He suffered horribly in Cambodia during the Khmer Rouge, came to the United States, acted in The Killing Fields which was about the Khmer Rouge, won an Oscar for it, acted in other films and TV, then killed by muggers (there were rumors it was politically motivated) in 1996.  He's excellent in this; his character should have returned - although that might have ruined some of the mystique.

The first scene after the credits is uncomfortable to watch because the young Helena Bonham Carter looks more like she could be Sonny's daughter than his girlfriend. I was surprised to learn Carter did American TV this early on.    

The percussive score is cool.  Atmospheric night scene on the "strip" where Gina and Trudy have on long wigs. 

If not a classic like "Bushido" and "Golden Triangle," this is still a first-rate Castillo entry. 

[RedDragon86]

Michael Wright is one of the most authentic characters in the series.

He is so convincing as "The Savage"

John Nicollela came back and made a great episode, wish he stayed and did more and Martin Kupfer should have wrote more episodes too.

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by RedDragon86

[airtommy]

On 6/27/2021 at 7:44 PM, ViceFanMan said:

 Coleman also irritated the crap out of me every time he purposely mispronounced Castillo's name, like some "hick"---actually pronouncing the L's instead of using the E sound! 

 

On 1/4/2021 at 6:39 PM, Dadrian said:

I always notice Colman pronouncing it that way in “The Savage”, and I always wonder if the (great) actor took that upon himself to add to the character’s dislikability. 

I always thought that was intentional, perhaps even in the script.

The episode was in part a critique of the CIA's actions in the Third World.  Coleman was the "ugly American".  Refusing to put any effort into pronouncing the Latino name correctly was part of that.  Eating the stereotypically American hamburger (him eating was awkwardly forced into the scene), was also part of it.

These efforts to build the Coleman character were weak IMO, maybe the only thing I didn't like about the episode.

[ViceFanMan]

24 minutes ago, airtommy said:

 

I always thought that was intentional, perhaps even in the script.

The episode was in part a critique of the CIA's actions in the Third World.  Coleman was the "ugly American".  Refusing to put any effort into pronouncing the Latino name correctly was part of that.  Eating the stereotypically American hamburger (him eating was awkwardly forced into the scene), was also part of it.

These efforts to build the Coleman character were weak IMO, maybe the only thing I didn't like about the episode.

Oh, I definitely think it was all on purpose & intentionally done! Coleman was trying to be as rude & insulting as possible! It probably originally was in the script...and he played it perfectly. No one cried when he “got it”. 

[Robbie C.]

It's not in the script, at least not the available draft version. Coleman was an obvious cliche.

[Tom]

I like this episode overall a lot but I find it funny that no one here has ever discussed the most obvious annoying (casting) mistake of this episode.

The Savage was allegedly a track record killer in 1971 in Vietnam, 15 years before the episode takes place. Michael Wright was 30 at the time of filming and looked like it. Unless he did start killing Vietcong in kindergarten that whole  savage background story and/or casting choice does not add up! 

[OCBman]

2 hours ago, Tom said:

I like this episode overall a lot but I find it funny that no one here has ever discussed the most obvious annoying (casting) mistake of this episode.

The Savage was allegedly a track record killer in 1971 in Vietnam, 15 years before the episode takes place. Michael Wright was 30 at the time of filming and looked like it. Unless he did start killing Vietcong in kindergarten that whole  savage background story and/or casting choice does not add up! 

Good point. I actually never thought about his age. Maybe he's a vampire. 

[RedDragon86]

8 hours ago, Tom said:

I like this episode overall a lot but I find it funny that no one here has ever discussed the most obvious annoying (casting) mistake of this episode.

The Savage was allegedly a track record killer in 1971 in Vietnam, 15 years before the episode takes place. Michael Wright was 30 at the time of filming and looked like it. Unless he did start killing Vietcong in kindergarten that whole  savage background story and/or casting choice does not add up! 

Yeah but his age is not revealed though, he could pass for 35 years old which means he started killing at 20.

Bruce McGill at the time of playing Hank Weldon was only 35  he look close to 50.

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

18 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

Yeah but his age is not revealed though, he could pass for 35 years old which means he started killing at 20.

Bruce McGill at the time of playing Hank Weldon was only 35  he look close to 50.

 

Agreed...both were/are awesome actors, but neither looked the younger age they were when they did their MV episodes (not that they looked elderly, by any means).  They could easily play older roles & make it work. 

Edited November 4, 2022 by ViceFanMan

[Tom]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb RedDragon86:

Yeah but his age is not revealed though, he could pass for 35 years old which means he started killing at 20.

 

That is not backed up with what is said in the episode. The veteran witness told C&T that he first met the Savage in 71 and at that time he was there for years, already had dozens of kills on his belt and was "so good that he killed the poor commies in their sleep". That means that the Savage must have started his career in the early days of the Vietnam War in mid/late 60s to gather that much experience. Thus the Savage must be at least 40 years old in 1986 when the episode takes place as you do not start as a killer behind enemy lines with 18 or 20 right after being drafted. 

[ViceFanMan]

16 minutes ago, Tom said:

That is not backed up with what is said in the episode. The veteran witness told C&T that he first met the Savage in 71 and at that time he was there for years, already had dozens of kills on his belt and was "so good that he killed the poor commies in their sleep". That means that the Savage must have started his career in the early days of the Vietnam War in mid/late 60s to gather that much experience. Thus the Savage must be at least 40 years old in 1986 when the episode takes place as you do not start as a killer behind enemy lines with 18 or 20 right after being drafted. 

This could be true...but the character & actor could easily pass for 40 and/or early 40s. 

[Tom]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb ViceFanMan:

This could be true...but the character & actor could easily pass for 40 and/or early 40s. 

Really? Not for me. And Michael Wright would not agree either that he looked 10 years older than he was with 30 

[ViceFanMan]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

Really? Not for me. And Michael Wright would not agree either that he looked 10 years older than he was with 30 

I understand in real life at the time he was 30...but he didn’t exactly look like some young “kid”. That’s not saying he looked bad or old...but he didn’t really have a baby-face, either.  He could have passed for 40 at the time. Plus, with the character and role that it was, they had him come across pretty “hard” and rough.

[Tom]

vor einer Stunde schrieb ViceFanMan:

I understand in real life at the time he was 30...but he didn’t exactly look like some young “kid”. That’s not saying he looked bad or old...but he didn’t really have a baby-face, either.  He could have passed for 40 at the time. Plus, with the character and role that it was, they had him come across pretty “hard” and rough.

For me he did not look like 40 at all and was way too young by appearance for the background story they gave him. But yes, I agree he came across brutal and rough though. That part of his person was credible for me (only his very skinny body -also not looking like that of a 40 year old - was not fully credible for a guy with special forces background and behind enemy lines endurance).

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

For me he did not look like 40 at all and was way too young by appearance for the background story they gave him. But yes, I agree he came across brutal and rough though. That part of his person was credible for me (only his very skinny body -also not looking like that of a 40 year old - was not fully credible for a guy with special forces background and behind enemy lines endurance).

He was thin/slim, but that’s because he was more than in shape (most of him, anyway ). Whether 40 or not, he was in special forces & an international assassin. He would stay in shape & not allow himself to become the stereotypical 40 year old—with a beer gut & a pudgy body. He doesn’t necessarily look a “bad” 40 (considering who he was), but at least the way they had the character come across, it wasn’t a stretch to me to say he was supposedly around 40. To me, he was perfect for the part...totally creeps me out! 

[fakespyder]

Back when the episode first aired, I had a fresh memory of Micheal Wright from the tele-movie series V. Seeing him in MV was surprising.

I do recall thinking he was pretty young to play someone who'd been to Vietnam. But some people can look quite young for their age. In this instance he was young but playing older.

It didn't bug me that much. He played the role well I thought. Traumatized, angry but smart enough to be an effective killer.

Edited November 5, 2022 by fakespyder

[Robbie C.]

8 hours ago, Tom said:

For me he did not look like 40 at all and was way too young by appearance for the background story they gave him. But yes, I agree he came across brutal and rough though. That part of his person was credible for me (only his very skinny body -also not looking like that of a 40 year old - was not fully credible for a guy with special forces background and behind enemy lines endurance).

Actually the idea of special forces people being bulked up and all that is a very modern thing. If you look back at period photos from Vietnam of SOG personnel, most of them were not especially big or muscled. His look is fine for the type of people who conducted those operations at that time. 

[johnnyfarragut]

On 12/8/2009 at 8:57 AM, COOPER&BURNETT said:

What I find funny about these polls is that SOMEBODY always gives every episode a 10. Even episodes that are bad.Can it be confired or denied that every poll so far has at least one 10?I can't wait till I see the poll for MIRACLE MAN or MISSING HOURS.SOMEBODY will give it a perfect 10 too.

We should have normal polls and SPINAL TAP polls. That being said, I give MIRACLE MAN and MISSING HOURS 11/10 !

Edited November 20, 2022 by johnnyfarragut

[Dadrian]

11 hours ago, johnnyfarragut said:

We should have normal polls and SPINAL TAP polls. That being said, I give MIRACLE MAN and MISSING HOURS 11/10 !

Not sure if everyone gets that one, but I’m glad I do.  

[Dadrian]

Did we ever solve the mystery of what Crockett tells Gina to say to the killer on the bridge?

I’ve asked some of my Vietnamese clients and even they don’t know. 

My wife was watching this episode with me last night. She was in the cosmetology profession years ago, and worked in a Vietnamese salon for years, so she understands a lot of the language. 

When Crockett said the words, my wife casually said “still beautiful”. 

Could this be it? “vẫn đẹp”

It sounds more like they’re saying “vẫm” than “vẫn” to me, but maybe Ns sound like Ms in Vietnamese pronunciations? 

[ViceFanMan]

5 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

Did we ever solve the mystery of what Crockett tells Gina to say to the killer on the bridge?

I’ve asked some of my Vietnamese clients and even they don’t know. 

My wife was watching this episode with me last night. She was in the cosmetology profession years ago, and worked in a Vietnamese salon for years, so she understands a lot of the language. 

When Crockett said the words, my wife casually said “still beautiful”. 

Could this be it? “vẫn đẹp”

It sounds more like they’re saying “vẫm” than “vẫn” to me, but maybe Ns sound like Ms in Vietnamese pronunciations? 

Not sure, but I’m pretty sure it was an ‘n’...with some sort of variation of “van dep” being what he said. 

[Dadrian]

8 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Not sure, but I’m pretty sure it was an ‘n’...with some sort of variation of “van dep” being what he said. 

Maybe it’s Gina that says “vẫm”