Episode #57 "Down For The Count" Part 2

[Tommy Vercetti]

I think Guzman's lawyer Sordoni probably told the cops that Guzman had Zito killed and that's how they cleared his name.

[ViceFanMan]

I put this same review for Pt. 1:Okay...now for some of my least favorite episodes of Season 3 (this and Pt. 1). These two, and "Everybody's in Showbiz" are probably my least favorite ones of the season. "Showbiz" because of its bizarre, and no-point plot. "Down For the Count" Pts. 1&2 because of the sad and depressing end of Zito. :cry:I know that John Diehl was wanting out, as his and Talbott's characters were really going nowhere. He was tired of playing one of two "goofs" and wanted a more serious part. I agree, that over time his and Switek's characters should have "grown" and changed somewhat. They should have had a couple more episodes that focused on them...and not like "Made For Each Other"--which in my opinion was stupid and ridiculous! :sick:But, I wish they had not decided to kill off the character of Lawrence "Larry" Zito...why do writers/producers think they have to kill characters off every "dang" time an actor wants to leave a show? :confused: What's wrong with having them leave to go do something else...leaving the chance that someday they might make a return appearance? They did it with Farrah Fawcett and her 'Jill Munroe' character on "Charlie's Angels"...why does Zito have to die?I hate sad and depressing things! If I want that I'll watch the freakin' news. Or go to work...as I'm a social worker and work with troubled kids. So, the death of Zito is probably the main reason I really don't like this two-parter. :eek:The other reason I don't like these episodes is that I really don't care for boxing stuff. It seemed like every cop/detective/crime show from the 70's-90's had to do a "prison" episode...and a "boxing" episode! Really?? They are so predictable and way over-done! :evil:However, the acting in this 2-parter is superb...as is some of the music and/or Jan Hammer scores included. John Diehl and Michael Talbott especially "shown" in this , with their acting. I also really liked the gun action at the end, in the mall, and that Switek got to be the one to avenge his partner's death! Because of these few aspects I did go ahead and give this and Pt. 1 a 6.

[TheMann]

Part 2 used to be my most re watched episode because of its aesthetics, the way they wound up the tension and let it unfurl into action. Upon re watching via DVD though, I'm distracted by their back burnering of Tubbs both in dialogue, and in the climactic shoot out. Tubbs would never suggest they pull over to see what they want... PMT must've guffawed when he read that script. And the stunt doubling of him taking cover behind that planter and never being seen from again, is a complete distraction now. He must've still been laughing about the dialogue and didn't make it to the set that day.

[Matt5]

Part 2 really stepped up a gear and was very good - as a piece "Down for the Count ( Part 1 &2 ) " was great viewing together.

Good directing from Richard Compton , these were his first episodes he directed for the show  

Edited May 29, 2016 by Matt5

[ArtieRollins]

I am already halfway through season 3 now. Well I did cheat a little, some episodes I saw last year, but then again they were sadly not that impressive and rather forgettable ones, so I skipped them this time, and will probably not be seeing them any time soon. 

Anyway, as with Season 2 here is my ratings of the first 13 episodes of Season 3:

Episode 46 - When Irish Eyes Are Crying 6/10

Not on the same level as the first episode of Season 1 and 2, but I kind of liked it, even though it drowned out a bit with the whole fast forward romance part between Gina and Sean. I think Jeff Fahey might have fitted the role of Sean better than Liam though, he just comes off as a bit too stiff.

Episode 47 - Stone's War 5/10

Episode 48 - Killshot 6/10

Episode 49 - Walk Alone 6,5/10

Episode 50 - The Good Collar 8/10

The first really great Miami Vice classic in season 3. It took some episodes out to get there, but this one I can watch over and over again.

Episode 51 - Shadow in the Dark 4/10

Poor man's Manhunter, and an episode I'll probably never watch again.

Episode 52 - El Viejo 5/10

Episode 53 - Better Living Through Chemistry 5,5/10

Episode 54 - Baby Blues 6,5/10

One of many episodes that deserved a much better villain, this one was more goofy lookin' than scary.

Episode 55 - Streetwise 6/10

One of the first Miami Vice episodes I saw, and even though it is not one of the great ones, I give an extra point to the beautiful ladies, especially Trudy and Gina in their street outfits. 

Episode 56 - Forgive Us Our Debts 5,5/10

Great beginning and end, but nothing too special. Again weakend by having too goofy/comic looking bad guys instead of more menacing ones. 

Episode 57 - Down For The Count" (Part 1) 8,5/10

Episode 58 - Down For The Count" (Part 2) 8/10

Now were talking. I have lost count on how many times I have watched these two episodes. The end scene with Switek finding Zito in the showers is heartbreaking and I really am glad Stan got his revenge later on. Guzman and his goons might come off as more sleazy than goofy looking, but you know he means buiness and is not to kid around with.

The first part is a little bit better than second one, as I felt it was too rushed in the last 7-8 minutes, and Would loved too see more of Joe Dallesandro as he made Guzman look like a little kid, the scene with Sordoni was truly great. Thats the kind of bad guy I wanted to see more of in Miami Vice, an ice cold psychopath and not the too often used cartoonish/goofy ones that you forget within a few seconds.

The music by both Jan Hammer and guest musicians were top notch, I liked how Evan or was it Talk? was used in the beginning of Part 2 with clips from Part 1, very powerful.

After going through the first 13th episodes of Season 3 Down For The Count Part 1 and 2 and The Good Collar stands out as really great ones, the rest is not really that weak but nothing special either. I do hope there are a couple of great ones coming later one, as Season 3 really needs it if not it will probably end up with between 6/10 or 6,5/10 which is not that bad, but I hoped it would be a least on par with season 2

Edited August 1, 2016 by ArtieRollins

[Remington]

I consider this and P1 to be one episode. They're both brilliantly directed.

Gulini has little screen time but he leaves a hell of an impression. Would'nt want to deal with him. The scene between him and the guy at the hotel was great. Lovely view too.

It also includes IMO, the best car chase of the series. It's extremely badass.

The guy living in the plane was funny.

The finalex apart from "Tubbs", was pretty good. The music was good and I was glad to see Guzman dead.

The downside is that it does get a little dramatic with all the shots of Switek looking moody. It gets old quick. Also fhe guys with guns under their coats at the end was laughable.

Call me when the view is better.

9.5/10

[ViceFanMan]

On 5/1/2013 at 1:20 AM, ViceFanMan said:

I put this same review for Pt. 1: Okay...now for some of my least favorite episodes of Season 3 (this and Pt. 1). These two, and "Everybody's in Showbiz" are probably my least favorite ones of the season. "Showbiz" because of its bizarre, and no-point plot. "Down For the Count" Pts. 1&2 because of the sad and depressing end of Zito.  I know that John Diehl was wanting out, as his and Talbott's characters were really going nowhere. He was tired of playing one of two "goofs" and wanted a more serious part. I agree, that over time his and Switek's characters should have "grown" and changed somewhat. They should have had a couple more episodes that focused on them...and not like "Made For Each Other"--which in my opinion was stupid and ridiculous!  But, I wish they had not decided to kill off the character of Lawrence "Larry" Zito...why do writers/producers think they have to kill characters off every "dang" time an actor wants to leave a show?  What's wrong with having them leave to go do something else...leaving the chance that someday they might make a return appearance? They did it with Farrah Fawcett and her 'Jill Munroe' character on "Charlie's Angels"...why did Zito have to die? I hate sad and depressing things! If I want that I'll watch the freakin' news. Or go to work...as I'm a social worker and work with troubled kids. So, the death of Zito is probably the main reason I really don't like this two-parter.  The other reason I don't like these episodes is that I really don't care for boxing stuff. It seemed like every cop/detective/crime show from the 70's-90's had to do a "prison" episode...and a "boxing" episode! Really??  They are so predictable and way over-done!  However, the acting in this 2-parter is superb...as is some of the music and/or Jan Hammer scores included. John Diehl and Michael Talbott especially "shown" in this , with their acting. I also really liked the gun action at the end, in the mall, and that Switek got to be the one to avenge his partner's death! Because of these few aspects I did go ahead and give this and Pt. 1 a 6.

This was my review from a few years ago...not much has changed in my opinion of this 2-parter. Good acting and music...but very sad and depressing. Not my favorite episode/s of the season for sure...nor of the series as a whole for that matter. 

[Remington]

This is one of the few times the depressing feel didn't bother me. Thats why S5 is my least favorite. It just went too far.

[ViceFanMan]

36 minutes ago, Remington said:

This is one of the few times the depressing feel didn't bother me. Thats why S5 is my least favorite. It just went too far.

Zito's death did really bother me and I don't like  it. Plus the boxing plot bores and irritates me. But, I agree season 5 was too "dark"...and kind of bizarre in my opinion.  The show seemed lost at this point. But, I think if they'd of gotten some better writers again, if the cast would have been on board, and the network would have okay'd it, I think the show could have revived itself and gone on for a few more seasons. But it is what it is.  

[Rattlehead]

I rewatched this two-parter and it was a little better than I remembered, not by much though. It was still confusing, particularly part 2 with the Vegas guys coming in. I love Diehl but his acting at the Moon crime scene wasn't convincing...otherwise he did great. Pepe Serna played his part well, he was memorable..."you can take your whiskey, and your harlots, and go to hell with them!" "Wrong answer..."

This quote was also too good: "The immigration office is across the street." As a Latino person, that made me laugh. Ha!

[Jack Gretsky]

The second half of "Down for the Count" is great, if not quite on the iconic level of part 1.  There's plenty to like however: Joe Dallesandro brings true menace to the point we start worrying about Guzman's hide!  (No, not really, )  It's funny how he turns Sodoni into a sweating, stinking bowl of jelly.   Chris Elliott exasperates Gina & Trudy with his trademark nuttiness.  

And that night chase!  One of the best ever on this show.  Billy Idol's best track, "Don't Need a Gun" is used brilliantly; the sound and action meshing perfectly.  A good mall shootout too, with those incongruous Vegas mobsters running around the glitzy establishment.  

Castillo's words of wisdom: "I know you all hurt inside, but do your grieving in private.  The street has no sympathy."

"To Larry!" 

[gazzaa2]

What do you make of Sonny's reaction to Zito's death? He must have felt responsible but wasn't carrying the grief of Stan or Gina and Trudy. Was he just not as close to Larry as the others? Compare how he reacted to the young dealer being shot at the end of Milk Run, overcome with grief and emotion for someone he barely knew.

Tubbs seemed more nonplussed as well. Sonny at least vowed to clear Zito's name.  I just struggle to believe the guilt would bounce off him.

[Robbie C.]

Sonny had always had a pretty ambivalent relationship with "Bluto and Lee Harvey Oswald" (to use his nicknames for them from the pilot), and I don't think that ever really changed. There was some revisionist "bonding" with Stan that took place much later in the show, but I think that had more to do with plot dynamics than a real decision to advance either character.

I tend to think Sonny shut down because he carried quite a bit of the responsibility for Zito's death, and he never dealt with that kind of guilt well (going all the way back to Barbara in season 1, and there are hints of it in Evan as well). Tubbs I can sort of understand because he was still new to OCB (when compared to everyone but Castillo, at least), but Sonny's lack of reaction always bothered me. Part of it could have had to do with off-camera stuff (Diehl's decision to leave the show), and it's hard to say what the original intent might have been because this is one of the episodes with no openly available scripts.

[fakespyder]

Tubbs had a moment outside Zito's apartment where he looked pretty upset.

Sonny was angry and focused on getting Guzman. When he says "Zito paid the price" it felt regretful and sincere.

[Robbie C.]

I watched both parts again yesterday, and have to say Part 2 felt really rushed, especially toward the end. They go from a shootout in the mall to drinks all around on the boat and everything's cool? It just didn't flow well for me. Especially given Stan's earlier comment to Sonny in the conference room and the level of anger he'd been carrying around for most of the episode. But it is in keeping with Dick Wolf's "way" of writing characters out of shows. He still doesn't do it very well. He clearly knows how to package and string along a show, but characterization (to me, at least) has always been one of his biggest weaknesses.

And didn't they recycle the FBI agent as the doctor in Mirror Image? His Gs (Guzman, Gutierrez) are pretty hard to miss...

[vicegirl85]

On 9/12/2022 at 2:24 PM, gazzaa2 said:

What do you make of Sonny's reaction to Zito's death? He must have felt responsible but wasn't carrying the grief of Stan or Gina and Trudy. Was he just not as close to Larry as the others? Compare how he reacted to the young dealer being shot at the end of Milk Run, overcome with grief and emotion for someone he barely knew.

To be honest, I do think Sonny carried both guilt and grief over Zito's death.  It was different from the kid in Milk Run, because Sonny viewed that young man as a kid who hadn't matured and may have been able to turn his life around after learning his lesson.  Zito was an adult, and a cop, and was able to make the choice to put himself in that position where he was at risk.  Not that that let Sonny off the hook, but I believe Sonny coped with his guilt by repressing his feelings.  He believed if he let go and acknowledged his grief and guilt, that he would be more vulnerable to Guzman.  It would interfere with him doing his job of legitimately stopping Guzman 'by the book."

[Robbie C.]

2 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

To be honest, I do think Sonny carried both guilt and grief over Zito's death.  It was different from the kid in Milk Run, because Sonny viewed that young man as a kid who hadn't matured and may have been able to turn his life around after learning his lesson.  Zito was an adult, and a cop, and was able to make the choice to put himself in that position where he was at risk.  Not that that let Sonny off the hook, but I believe Sonny coped with his guilt by repressing his feelings.  He believed if he let go and acknowledged his grief and guilt, that he would be more vulnerable to Guzman.  It would interfere with him doing his job of legitimately stopping Guzman 'by the book."

I agree to a limited degree, but he'd already pushed Zito into risking his friend Moon over a CI Guzman had killed some years before. Zito was also operating without any kind of backup, which put him at an even greater risk given Sonny would supposedly know what Guzman was capable of. He also pretty much blew off Moon's murder with his "this is what we do" comment. Sonny had the bit in his teeth when it came to Guzman, and I don't know that he cared much about what it might cost to bring him down. We don't see a truly remorseful side of Sonny until much later in the run.

But some of that points out the holes in these episodes. Where was Castillo during all this? Aside from handing out pithy comments we don't see him that much, and when he do he's even more detached than normal. Normally he commented or exercised a touch more oversight when he noticed Sonny getting into a case for personal reasons. Remember, they didn't even know Guzman was still active until Zito took them to that fight. Crockett launching the operation in the first place smacks more of revenge than anything else. WE know Guzman's up to something, but Crockett didn't until much later on.

In the end, though, I lay a lot of this at the feet of Dick Wolf. He's never been good at episodes requiring character development or exploration, and both parts of Down for the Count required serious doses of both. So we end up with two episodes with promise, plot holes big enough to drive semi-trucks through, and an ending that feels both forced and hollow.

[ViceFanMan]

4 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

To be honest, I do think Sonny carried both guilt and grief over Zito's death.  It was different from the kid in Milk Run, because Sonny viewed that young man as a kid who hadn't matured and may have been able to turn his life around after learning his lesson.  Zito was an adult, and a cop, and was able to make the choice to put himself in that position where he was at risk.  Not that that let Sonny off the hook, but I believe Sonny coped with his guilt by repressing his feelings.  He believed if he let go and acknowledged his grief and guilt, that he would be more vulnerable to Guzman.  It would interfere with him doing his job of legitimately stopping Guzman 'by the book."

Well stated. I think Crockett dealt with either guilt or sadness that way a lot. Especially in the middle of a case or work-related situation, I think he had a way of compartmentalizing in order to carry out his job to the best of his ability. Giving into emotions every time might interfere with that.

Not that Sonny was “perfect” with that method.  There were times he did give into emotions (sometimes understandably)...but, ironically usually when he did things didn’t go well.

[wolfie1996]

On 11/23/2009 at 5:51 PM, Tommy Vercetti said:

In the pantheon of Vice greatness they bow down to Down For The Count Part II and it's magisterial brilliance.Down For The Count Part II is a stunning episode. They really spoiled us with this incredible episode. Down For The Count Part II is flawless and a perfect Vice episode.Part II opens superbly with the mortuary sequence, a beautiful scene that continued from the end of Part I perfectly. Music consultant Fred Lyle excelled himself here.‘Blind Faith’ by Corey Hart was perfect and an absolutely brilliant choice for the scene. It’s such a beautiful song. One of my favourite Vice songs. It’s a powerful song that really carried the whole mortuary scene. Very nice work by Talbott in that scene too. Switek is so overcome with grief he can’t say anything. The mortuary scene was great. Zito’s death was handled beautifully on the show. They got the balance exactly right. It wasn’t too mawkish or overly sentimental.Some excellent scenes follow, such as the grief stricken OCB crew in the office with Castillo telling them to do their grieving in private then Switek’s indignation when told that Zito’s fingerprints were on the syringe. This was continued onto the next scene at Internal Affairs where he was infuriated by the accusation that Zito was a druggie. The scene where Crockett smashes a cup in frustration when Castillo announces that Zito goes down as an overdose was also great. Some lovely scenery too - Zito’s apartment and the Miami Beach Post Office on Washington Avenue, a building I’m very familiar with. Now we move on to Alfredo Guillini. In my opinion he is the greatest villain in the show’s history. A brilliant character played superbly. A combination of Bugsy Siegel and Charles Manson. ‘nuff said. He is impossibly cool, smart, funny, scary, ruthless, cold blooded. He’s got it all. Joe Dallesandro was brilliant in the role. I have nothing but praise for his portrayal. His performance is faultless. He steals every one of his scenes. The character is superbly written. All of his dialogue is superb. They should’ve brought him back in a future episode.I’m a massive fan of Joe Dallesandro, although I haven’t seen any of those Warhol movies he was in. I think he is possibly the most overlooked and underrated actor ever. He was immortalized in music by Lou Reed, The Smiths and Briskeby. That alone makes him a living legend. He was also great as mob boss Paul ‘Pat the Cat’ Patrice in the first season of the show Wiseguy and he made the best ever screen Lucky Luciano in The Cotton Club. But he didn’t really get too much work in Hollywood apart from that, which is shameful. He really should’ve been on The Sopranos. How could Hollywood casting directors have so overlooked the talents of Joe Dallesandro?Guillini’s apartment is in the Tifany Condo in Bal Harbor. That scene on the balcony where he threatens Sordoni’s family is mesmerizing. The sea view is stunning and Guillini is terrifying. “There’s a lot of wackos out there. Guys who make me look like a Sunday school teacher. These guys, they’d love to do something terrible to your familyâ€. Gulp! I would not annoy that guy! Once again, superbly acted by Joe. I had to laugh at the scene Guzman’s house when Sordoni says lots of people are scared of Guillini. He’d know.This episode really is wall to wall perfection. Next up is the fantastic car chase, which gets my vote as the greatest car chase in the show’s history. The cars zooming through downtown Miami at night, it’s such a thrilling and pulsating sequence. Billy Idol’s ‘Don’t Need A Gun’ was another brilliant song and ionce again a flawless song choice. It matched the action perfectly. Brilliant chase sequence. To put it succinctly, wow. I also enjoyed Chris Elliott’s guest appearance. He’s a funny guy. He was great in Groundhog Day and There’s Something About Mary too. Nice to hear Jimi Hendrix’s ‘All Along The Watchtower’ in that scene. And Trudy and Gina look hot in that scene too. Chris Elliott also appeared briefly in Mr. Mann’s Manhunter.The build up to the mall shootout was great. The sequence was complemented very much by ‘I Want To Make The World Turn Around’ by The Steve Miller Band.Then the climatic mall shootout. Another fantastic sequence. Great location and it is a serious contender for the best shootout of the whole series. It’s great how Switek avenged Zito’s murder. I really dig the shot of Guzman falling through the plate glass window. Great exit. The mall shootout is a brilliant climax to a brilliant episode.Then a very satisfying closing scene on the St. Vitus with a nice tribute to Lar. A nice end to a masterfully executed episode.Down For The Count Part II is a phenomenally brilliant episode that encapsulates everything that is great about Vice.10/10. A masterpiece

Watched this again last night and this assessment of it is 100% correct! I'd forgotten about that brilliant car chase! Best one I've ever seen, I think. And I really like Joe Dallesandro myself- he was really good in Wiseguy (which I'm a big fan of). Well, Tommy, a rather late congratulations n your excellent post but sincerely meant!

[johnnyfarragut]

RIP, Larry Zito ...

 

 

[RedDragon86]

The introduction of the mob with Joe Dallesandro was a masterstroke.

It would not have been a great episode without the Italian mafia and it was nice to hear Lombard's theme again.