Ferrariman

Episode #55 "Forgive Us Our Debts"

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Ferrariman

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timm525

I give this one a 9 for Hackman's evilness.

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chum981

One of the best! Very momorable and should be in everyone's top ten!

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mjcmmv

Season 3 DVD Episode DiscussionI give this a 10-Hackman makes his debut! Let the Burnett Trilogy begin!!!MJ

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Shill

great music/original plot and clams:D

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Guest neworder

I underrated this one on .org and only gave it an 8 stating that it slowed down in the middle. What the hell was I on about? lolANYWAY, top class episode with a compelling, interesting, dark and original storyline. There is great music contained, with Peter Gabriels We Do What We're told one of my all time fave Vice tunes. There isn't a huge abundance of traditional Vice style, but there are some lovely shots especially in relation to the Ferrari and Scarab scenes and also the church featured in the surveillance scene certainly had some decent architecture mixed in with the palms. Legendary ending to this episode, definitely one of the best cliffhangers of the series. Overall then, it's a fantastic episode, somehow I don't feel it's special enough to warrant a 10 because there is slightly less Vice style than would be the norm and also Hammer's tunes are re-used so ... slightly less special in that department but still brilliant. 9/10

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Tony D.

Forgive Us Our Debts" is really part 1 of a story which concludes at the end of Season 4 with "Deliver Us From Evil". Now that I'm studying these episodes with care, I like them more than I did originally. We again see Crockett as a good cop who wants to do the right thing, as opposed to the candidate who wants to further his carreer at the cost of an innocent man's life. Ironically, he was right about Hackman being a "slug" or "maggot". This episode gives me a Hitchcock feel at the end! The look on Crockett's face as he realizes he was conned by Hackman. Things I liked : The Church & its beautiful grounds. Gina as a nun... funny! Sonny again shedding his weapons to enter a prison. Albierro taking his execution like a man! Some funny lines: " What's wrong?" ; Crockett : "Nothing that 20,000 volts couldn't cure." Switek : " Isn't this guy gonna be a little crispy by then?" -( or similar words) Barkley : "They're either cops or amatures, no self respecting thief would be so stupid. Let's see some ID." Frank Hackman gave a real convincing story to Crockett in prison. The episode, to me, was a little slow moving & I like to see a cool gun battle but the acting was really good & the Vice Team, especially Tubbs, got some good exposure. I originally would have given this a 5 or 6 rating, but I raise it to an 8. :thumbsup:

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nmathews

My original review 08 June 2007 at 9:49pmThis is such a full episode I can't even do it justice! The music in this is excellent from Peter Gabriel's We do what We're told which was a spot on song to play while Sonny is driving to see Hackman. It also described Sonny's attitude at the start of this episode. Standing on the Outside (or whatever that song was) also was a great song to play for the jail scenes, The music they used for the surveillance and noting down of the license plates of the people coming to the church was the same Jan Hammer music used in "Buddies" when they were doing surveillance and writing down the license plates at The Hotel Frank Doss and Johnny Kanada owned. I thought that was interesting the same music was used here. When I first watched this episode I took the journey along with Sonny and Rico. I was convinced (especially since we saw the actual murder at the beginning of the episode) That Hackman was guilty and it was all a scam and as Sonny said the good father was being played, but as the investigation went on, I became convinced like Sonny that Hackman had been convicted of the wrong crime, and was really preparing to die. This especially sold me when Barkley had to be pushed into the pool, threatened and roughed up by Sonny to supposedly get the truth out of him. Crockett certainly did everything he could to make sure what he thought was an innocent man not get executed. Sonny was just as intense about getting Hackman off when he believed him innocent as he is about putting criminals in jail. We see here that although Sonny is cynical he still wants to and does believe in the system up until the very last scene when he realizes he's been played by Hackman, At this point we see another piece of Crockett's belief in himself and the system deteriorate. Since this wasn't my first time watching this episode, I also watched Hackman's actions. It may have been his plan, but I'm convinced, no matter what he said at the end to Crockett, that it was a desperate plan on his part. He had to convince everyone including Crockett and the jail guards that he had really repented and was innocent of this particular crime. He made it believable by admitting to Crockett that he had done bad things that Crockett didn't know about although he maintained his innocence of the particular crime of killing Crockett's partner at the time. The fact he mentioned the other crimes and that he was guilty of them did a lot to make me question his guilt when I saw this the first time, and with what Sonny was finding from Gus's confession and the road blocks put in his way to find what he considered the truth also did a lot to sell him on Frank's possible innocence of this crime. So far it looks like Hackaman is on the up and up this time around. I don't think even Hackman was sure his plan would work. If you take a look at the scenes where he's getting ready to go to the chair, his last meal, the shaving off his hair and the look on his face when no one's around It's obvious that Hackman was hoping his plan would work, and he would get released, but he was by no means as confident as he let on to Crockett after it was a done deed. I'm still not sure if Hackman would have let Crockett know that it had all been a ruse if Crockett hadn't come to the prison when Hackman was released. Sonny may have never known that he was used. It's obvious by Hackman's look that he's surprised Crockett made the trip, but since he did he couldn't help but brag that Crockett had helped free him and he was guilty after all. This last scene between them I think remained in the back of Sonny's mind until they met again in "Deliver Us From Evil". This is an excellent episode from great outdoor scenes to interesting indoor scenes, the Church, The interior of the St. Vitus Dance, even the prison, where we see Sonny once again go through the security of leaving his weapons before he sees the prisoner. I love the use of the scarab, and I like that Sweitek could help with the vital clue of Venus clams in Stewart FL. I even liked the witness protection angle and the music as I detailed above was good also. I have to give this episode a 10. because of all the great things it incorporates, and the story. 11/10/2009 - I recently saw this episode again this past weekend. I still feel the same about it. I wish I could give a higher score to this but 10 is as far as we go. This episode was written so well, that Michael Mann trotted it out again for RHD. The name, the characters, the decade, and the locale was changed but credit was given to the guy who wrote the MV episode for the episode "Had" for Robbery Homicide.

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mjcmmv

Season 3 DVD Episode DiscussionNancy, as usual, you said it all! This episode was so powerful. Every time I see it, it leaves a lasting impression. You were so right about Sonny's face at the end. What a range of emotions: shame, regret, fury, bitterness, hatred, despair. DJ was amazing in that scene. And Rico stands in the background with pity and concern on his face for his partner. It reminded me of the time he put his hand on Sonny's shoulder after Evan died. It was a real twist in the end-as you said, like Hitchcock. The good guy definitely did NOT win in this episode....On the lighter side, I liked the sarcastic, funny lines too, Tony. Lots of good "MV Quotes" material in this episode...MJ

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Tony D.

When are you getting your quote book published, MJ ?

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Dadrian

pros: everythingcons: nothingall in all: one of the best eps of the series for me. 10/10

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Tommy Vercetti

For me, this is the point where Miami Vice reaches it’s pinnacle. There are three superb episodes in succession - Forgive Us Our Debts, Down For The Count 1 and Down For The Count 2. There was no other time during the run of the series when there were three 10/10 episodes in a row and that’s why I believe this period during mid season 3 was the highpoint of the whole series and the best the show ever got.Forgive Us Our Debts has all the elements of a great Vice episode; superbly acted, directed, written with beautiful scenery and great music. Probably the best combination of a hard hitting story and quintessential Vice style.This very fine episode is consistent with season 3’s tackling of thorny subjects, here the death penalty. Always a contentious and divisive issue. It really makes for a riveting an engrossing episode. This commences with a tense and quite shocking intro where a cop is gunned down in front of his family. It sets the tone for the episode that follows.The whole ep is very absorbing and compelling with many memorable scenes. It keeps you gripped and guessing the whole way through. Beautiful shots of the Testarossa on the MacArthur at sunset and some other very nice locations such as the Spanish Monastery, Waldman’s office and Barclay’s house. The view in the scene with the Governor’s Dinner was gorgeous. Nice Scarab action there too. Frank Hackman is a perfect nemesis for Crockett. He’s a real snake in the grass and very deceptive. Undoubtedly one of the best villains of the series. Guy Boyd did an excellent job portraying him. He really conveyed both sides to Hackman; a supposed victim of a miscarriage of justice and as a remorseless killer. D.W. Moffett is also excellent as the ambitious candidate Waldman. The other actors were also excellent and well cast.Excellent DJ performance. Crockett is really a crusader in this ep. His sense of righteousness was his undoing. It blinded him to duplicity that exists.The prison scene reminiscent of opening of Payback. The visiting scene is a very effective scene. Both actors played it very well. Hackman really sets the trap for Crockett in that scene. I very much liked the surveillence scene at the Spanish Monastery too. Very interesting sequence. Gina as a nun was a bit amusing though.Excellent music in this ep. Peter Gabriel’s ’We Do What We’re Told’ underscored the episode very well and I really liked the re-use of Jan’s tune from Buddies. Only complaint I have is a lack of Zito. I would’ve liked to have seen him in this ep more. He was only in one scene.The closing scene is shattering. Hackman quietly taunting Crockett and sticking knife in by telling him that he killed Frankel. Great ending and a good example of how Vice went against the grain of most cop shows, in that an evil killer got away scot free leaving a trial of victims in his wake.A superb episode in every way. A top 10 favourite of mine. 10/10

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mjcmmv

Season 3 DVD Episode Discussion

When are you getting your quote book published' date=' MJ ?[/quote']Actually, I'm still "refining" it. I get lots of great quotes from this site and now that we have the DVD's, I've been studying them for ones we didn't have before. Published, eh?....gee, you never know... ;)

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Guest neworder

pros: everythingcons: nothingall in all: one of the best eps of the series for me. 10/10

ha-ha nice summary

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Guest neworder

Only complaint I have is a lack of Zito. I would’ve liked to have seen him in this ep more. He was only in one scene.

Yeah he could've easily taken the place of that random guy who delivered the surveillance photos to Switek.

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nmathews

My guess why Zito wasn't in Streetwise, and hardly in Forgive us our Debts.

Yeah he could've easily taken the place of that random guy who delivered the surveillance photos to Switek.

My guess is John Diehl was preparing for hs swan song, and maybe involved in moving out of Miami, since he hated Miami so much. Of course he may have just been too busy with that fighter training.

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EasyED

One of my absolut favorite epi! 9/10 from me

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agent 47

This is a good episode that seems like a breath of fresh air after the flimsy Streetwise, while I don't really care for these type stories, I like the episode except for the ending, I don't know why, I guess it's because they just didn't tie it up until way too late when I really could've cared less, maybe they should have thought of finishing the story as the finale in season three and I would feel different.Still, I like the episode, since it's not my cup of Vice-flavored tea (I usually go for the Crockett and Tubbs go underover and bust the drug dealer flavor myself) and the finale leaves a bad taste in my mouth, I give it a 7.

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Icemanmike

Niner on this one...Awesome to say the least. In the past week or so, I'll say I've watched it 6-7 times. This one keeps turning a corner after corner and it's just sooo good. Not only a great episode, even the little things too. The commercial that Waldman was putting together and he says "good" and you see the screen...We've come so far with technology haven't we? His office was sweet and after all this muss and fuss, the attourney was spot on with his belief and conviction. The Hackman 'group' did a marvelous job putting the slip on the crew. I loved the shot of the Testa going down the road with Sonny going to see Frank with the cruise ship on the left...Catch it? Also the Sonny, Frank meeting in the jail...Was shot in two different takes...Look at Frank's hair. Also worth mentioning was that frank looks like who with no hair ...Just needs a two day shadow....Give up?...Springfields best, Homer Simpson...Sorry. This was simply an excellent episode. Prolly the best so far and I just had to pick a few little things apart from it. Yeah, that Monastery was beautiful and (changing gears) what was up with Gus's wife? Must be the Miami heat 'cause she seemed a bit of a looker compared to 'ol Gus, yet her acting was horrible. I liked the scenes in the shop too...Nice sun-faded '69 Firebird and a black Datsun 280Z That Gus get's clipped kneeling on...Took me a bit to figure out why he got clipped too...Hmmm, to see legs like that while under the car walk up and you knew it was your time without a word.....Rico played a good part, the warm understanding one and all his lines had some conviction to them, like right to the point...Trudy in polka-dots and those earrings..I think Zito had one line in the whole episode and he said OK during a meeting...I gotta rest up, we gotta two-fer coming up...Hard to beat this one...Mike

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2morgen

mmm got mixed feelings about this oneThe acting is very good, the story line oke, music fine but the ending is very confrontating ( do you write that like that???). Very much like real life I gave it a 8.

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Lar

10/10. One of the defining, perfect eps IMO.

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vicenarc

I grant this story an 8. It had an involving theme to it. It was remarkable how Frank Hackman portrayed himself as an innocent man being wrongfully imprisoned for murder and sentenced for execution. A lot must have been going through Sonny's mind when Hackman admitted he was behind it right after his release. A killer set free right before his eyes.

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Papa Legba

This episode gets a solid 9 from me in what for me has to be Vice's strongest ever storyline. This was a very dark and nihilistic episode that typified the spirit of Season 3. The story was very well written and this was one of those rare occasions where the plot sends you down a particular road, you don't see the ending coming, but at the same time the acting and the script are not deliberately misleading you down the wrong path in order to create a shock at the end. Compare this with Vice's most badly written episode "Amen... send money", where the script and story is so contradictory and disjointed, that the writers deliberately took you down a misleading path, which then turned into something else, but at the same time contradicted everything thing which had already happened (more on that when the time comes).The opening scene was good in that the director made a good job of making DJ look six years younger. I also thought it was interesting that Crockett came across less jaded, more fresher, less cynical and more optimistic in this scene "we'll take this Turkey while he's still in bed", as indeed you would expect him to be after 6 less years of hard knocks. What I didn't understand was how come Crockett was driving a Porsche? He wasn't working in Vice at this time, so the car wasn't there for his cover. And as Crockett always makes out that cops are not paid a great wage, then how did he afford a flash set of wheels?There were some great cynical one liners from Crockett in this episode such as "nothin that 20,000 volts wouldn't cure", and regarding the polticians "of course they're serious, they're trying to get elected!". But the best one of all (which is my favourite Crockett quote) has to be the one that went something along the lines of "The guy caps a 20 year prison sentance by supposedly blockin bullets in a prison riot, only to turn up three years later fryin clams out in Stewart".Notice that when Crockett went to see Hackman in prison, Hackman's hair kept changing. Bit of a continuity problem there.Again, no way would this investigation have been handled by the local Vice squad. Crockett was the original arresting officer. However, this was when he worked in Robbery. This case would have probably been handled by the DA's office, considering it was ultimately Waldman that built up the case against Hackman. I thought the "standing on the outside" song was powerful when used in the scene where Felicia kills Albierro. Great scene.I just noticed having rewatched this episode yesterday that the FBI guy who was patting down Crockett against his car was the same actor who played the guy who ran through a plate glass window the beginning of "Missing Hours".I do think that Guy Boyd should have gone the extra mile though and shaved his hair off for the part. That bald wig wasn't fooling anybody.One of my favourite scenes, not just from this episode, but from the whole of Vice was the scene where Crockett beats up a smug Thomas Berkeley.Image how Crockett feels at the end. He's angry at being conned, he's probably feeling guilty that he's responsible for letting a killer out back into the world (particularly one who murdered his ex-partner), and he's probably going to feel guilty about ruining Waldman's career. The consequences of Crockett's actions are brought into focus by the time of "Deliver us from evil", where Hackman kills that 15 year old girl in that home invasion. If Hackman had died, she would be still alive Something that Crockett is probably well aware of when it happens.

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MrsEvanFreed

Oh yes, this set in motion the events leading up to The Burnett Saga.No question, one of the strongest offerings of S3.8/10

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