Ferrariman

Episode #55 "Forgive Us Our Debts"

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apocalypse

Hi there. I'm a longtime fan of MV from Finland... I saw all the episodes when they originally aired, and have watched them like thousand times over and over again. Actually I was a member of this community years ago but have lost my password and I can't even remember what my original username was. :DAnyway... after all these years I consider this episode the absolutely best of them all. It has perfect plot, perfect acting (Guy Boyd is phenomenal) and very unique, cynical and depressive "feel" in it. But I really liked this darker tone in the 3rd season anyway. The guys who played Albierro and Waldman were excellent as well. Don Johnson looked and acted really sharp here too.I remember when I first saw this, I developed a lot of sympathy for Hackman. The end was shocking but genius. It was very unpredictable back then, because I was excepting to see another typical, cheesy and predictable happy ending. Miami Vice was the first cop show where the good guys didn't necessarily win. Thus, it was a great representation of real life... and MV had a lot of good criticism for this sad, corrupted western system we're all living.This is one of the episodes that I never get tired of. It's not just "episode"... it's a pure masterpiece which could have been a great Hollywood movie, even.Rating: 10 for the best MV episode of all time.

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Joe
Forgive Us Our Our Debts belongs to the best 10 episodes of VICE (spoken with Sonny's words: "Surprise, surprise!"):happy::happy::happy::radio::radio::radio: The series is here at the top of its power and influence!!!It's the beginning of a long-range plot and study of the character Sonny Crockett. Nobody guesses that Hackman becomes Sonny's fate and finally destroys his life. Only considering this fact, I strongly admire the plot and its scope. The first question is, why Hackman can deceive Sonny??? Normally Sonny is an expert in knowing people and is leery, so it's absolutely incomprehensibly why Sonny is deceived by Hackman.Maybe due to Hackman's perfect staging of his allegedly innocence. Hackman hits Sonny at his most distinctive persuasion: his persuasion in righteousness. And Hackman abuses this important virtue.In this way it's possible to destroy a person's good soul and the belief in the good in man.:hot:Insofar Hackman is the personalized evil.At this point I have to praise Guy Boyd for his portrayal of this - indeed not easy - character. He acts extremenly adaptable, so in one moment one thinks he's a poor and helpless victim of justice and in another one he's guilty without doubt!!!:clap:Anyway, the plan of Hackman to be given a reprieve is perfectly elaborated. Gus Albierro changes his testimony because he wants to die in peace. So, he goes to confession because he knows that the priest will contact Sonny.And if Albierro's story doesn't convince Sonny, Tom Barkley redeems this with his total immunity. :hot:Here comes the next highlight: I really really cherish the scene where Sonny and Rico burgles Barkley's house and Barkley aims his Franchi SPAS-12 at him!!!:cool:This weapon excellently fits to VICE and to the 80s, such a futuristic-looking gun.Anyway, Hackman's plan works and he has been released. The final scene should win a prize.:happy: The combination between the dialogue Sonny-Hackman, the shots and close-ups of their faces and Gabriel's We Do What We're Told is much more than world-class!!!:clap:Besides this outstanding plot, Forgive Us Our Debts has beautiful shots and locations. For example the sunrise in front of the stadium, the scene of the meal with the governor, the Spanish Monastery-scene.:clap:Concerning music, Meat Loaf's Standing On The Outside is one my favourite VICE songs and perfectly accentuates 2 scenes (!!!): Albierro's brutal murder and Hackman's "last hours"!:radio:Jan Hammer contributes a wonderful, unfortunately unreleased, score from Buddies. I call it Piano Theme. One of his most emphatic, most emotional and nicest scores.:radio:Concerning acting performance, this episode is also outstanding. Donnie is beyond question - he excels himself - awesome. Guy Boyd portrays Hackman excellently; I can't imagine that another actor embodies Hackman. D.W Moffett aka Waldman conduces a good many to success of this ep. He deliciously portrays the career-obsessed and reckless politician who nevertheless sees through Hackman.The dialogue between Waldman and Sonny at the end is marvelous. Sonny deeply thinks he did the right thing and Waldman - being bummed out - tries to bring Sonny down to the earth.1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 points!!!

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Brother in Arms

a dood story, great pictures:thumbsup: i find the story great i give 10 oints:thumbsup::cool::clap:

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ViceFanMan
This is such a full episode I can't even do it justice! The music in this is excellent from Peter Gabriel's We do what We're told which was a spot on song to play while Sonny is driving to see Hackman. It also described Sonny's attitude at the start of this episode. Standing on the Outside (or whatever that song was) also was a great song to play for the jail scenes' date=' The music they used for the surveillance and noting down of the license plates of the people coming to the church was the same Jan Hammer music used in "Buddies" when they were doing surveillance and writing down the license plates at The Hotel Frank Doss and Johnny Kanada owned. I thought that was interesting the same music was used here. When I first watched this episode I took the journey along with Sonny and Rico. I was convinced (especially since we saw the actual murder at the beginning of the episode) That Hackman was guilty and it was all a scam and as Sonny said the good father was being played, but as the investigation went on, I became convinced like Sonny that Hackman had been convicted of the wrong crime, and was really preparing to die. This especially sold me when Barkley had to be pushed into the pool, threatened and roughed up by Sonny to supposedly get the truth out of him. Crockett certainly did everything he could to make sure what he thought was an innocent man not get executed. Sonny was just as intense about getting Hackman off when he believed him innocent as he is about putting criminals in jail. We see here that although Sonny is cynical he still wants to and does believe in the system up until the very last scene when he realizes he's been played by Hackman, At this point we see another piece of Crockett's belief in himself and the system deteriorate. Since this wasn't my first time watching this episode, I also watched Hackman's actions. It may have been his plan, but I'm convinced, no matter what he said at the end to Crockett, that it was a desperate plan on his part. He had to convince everyone including Crockett and the jail guards that he had really repented and was innocent of this particular crime. He made it believable by admitting to Crockett that he had done bad things that Crockett didn't know about although he maintained his innocence of the particular crime of killing Crockett's partner at the time. The fact he mentioned the other crimes and that he was guilty of them did a lot to make me question his guilt when I saw this the first time, and with what Sonny was finding from Gus's confession and the road blocks put in his way to find what he considered the truth also did a lot to sell him on Frank's possible innocence of this crime. So far it looks like Hackaman is on the up and up this time around. I don't think even Hackman was sure his plan would work. If you take a look at the scenes where he's getting ready to go to the chair, his last meal, the shaving off his hair and the look on his face when no one's around It's obvious that Hackman was hoping his plan would work, and he would get released, but he was by no means as confident as he let on to Crockett after it was a done deed. I'm still not sure if Hackman would have let Crockett know that it had all been a ruse if Crockett hadn't come to the prison when Hackman was released. Sonny may have never known that he was used. It's obvious by Hackman's look that he's surprised Crockett made the trip, but since he did he couldn't help but brag that Crockett had helped free him and he was guilty after all. This last scene between them I think remained in the back of Sonny's mind until they met again in "Deliver Us From Evil". This is an excellent episode from great outdoor scenes to interesting indoor scenes, the Church, The interior of the St. Vitus Dance, even the prison, where we see Sonny once again go through the security of leaving his weapons before he sees the prisoner. I love the use of the scarab, and I like that Sweitek could help with the vital clue of Venus clams in Stewart FL. I even liked the witness protection angle and the music as I detailed above was good also. I have to give this episode a 10. because of all the great things it incorporates, and the story. 11/10/2009 - I recently saw this episode again this past weekend. I still feel the same about it. I wish I could give a higher score to this but 10 is as far as we go. This episode was written so well, that Michael Mann trotted it out again for RHD. The name, the characters, the decade, and the locale was changed but credit was given to the guy who wrote the MV episode for the episode "Had" for Robbery Homicide.
This was such an in-depth and superb review that I had to quote it...couldn't agree more, Nancy! :thumbsup: I too felt that the whole time even Hackman wasn't sure his plan would work...but it was his last, desperate attempt to get off. In the reality I seriously doubt this would have happened...but in the world of "MV", anything is possible. ;) The music was superb in this one, and the song selections were perfect with the situation and episode! :radio:Hackman was the perfect sociopath, with no feeling on right or wrong...just evil. And not Hollywood's version of "evil", with fried up faces, slicin' n dicin' everyone up, and corny one-liners--but a realistic version of evil. :eek: I love the past Crockett has with him and how they incorporate it with the present, and this is really sort of a "Pt. 1"...with the 2nd part being in season 4's "Deliver Us From Evil."The ending to me is very "Hitchcockian", and is kind of a shocking twist the first time you see it...and you realize you've been "taken" along with Crockett. I love twists you don't see coming and/or things that surprise you or get your attention. :clap: It also basically let you know that at some point Hackman would be back. This is just an awesome "deep" episode and everyone did a fantastic acting job too. I really like this one and I gave it an 8! :thumbsup:
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hleather

Twists and a dark turn

This one keeps turning a corner after corner and it's just sooo good. Not only a great episode' date=' even the little things too. ...Mike[/quote']While not the typical Vice ep this really ramps up the punishment they're giving Crockett. This one and Good Collar, both with a rather green/dark cast it seems, prove how fruitless it is for Crocket to try to "save" anybody.And I agree with Iceman, the plot keeps throwing us for loops. As soon as there's a lead (Barkley) he's found out to be "dead" etc. And Hackman's confession at the beginning in prison to Sonny really sells us on his journey. 9 for me, especially after the wandering Streetwise and Better Living...

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Matt5

Great episode and lots of Don - the colors and visuals are excellent in this episode.

9.5/10 :D  :)

Eingefügtes Bild

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DeepCover333

I really can't add much here that hasn't already been wonderfully said by everyone about this amazing episode. Sonny knocking Barkley around was a stunning moment, as he seems to perhaps be ever so slowly becoming more unhinged in the grand scheme of dealing with everything he has been through. Hackman was so well portrayed, it is magnificent how Guy Boyd was able to invoke sympathetic feelings from the viewer and then become the face of pure evil at the end. Great scenes throughout this one, and the fashion and color do not disappoint. I think at one point there might be a slow spot or two, but it serves to further build up the climax. Excellent season 3 episode, 9/10

Edited by DeepCover333
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Susanna Girl

^ Very nice summation, couldn't agree more.  I remember my heart falling to my feet when Hackman showed his true colors.  

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Tony_MontanaCDL

 

This is a 10 out of 10 episode. I recently watched Deliver Us From Evil and had to pull this one back from season 3.

 

I remember first watching this and being absolutely floored by the reveal at the end. It's one of the most memorable twists ever on MV. You didn't see it coming whatsoever since the conspiracy flowed so perfectly.

There's a lot this episode offers the viewer, you have the political campaign standpoint which might be the only good thing that happens by the end of this episode, at least that guy was out of business.

 

When Hackman is released and he hands Crockett the cross necklace, he's literally crucifying him with it. I love this scene, it's spot on perfect right along the way with Gabriel's "Do What We're Told" playing in the background. That scene with the cross is one of the things I remember the most from season 3 and goes right next to the power in Zito's tragic death. 

 

This episode is when Crockett's real disillusionment begins. I believe "Payback" from season 2 was the first time he started to have doubts about the job, but this was the knife stuck in his gut and Hackman would go on to haunt him down the road up until the events of "Deliver Us From Evil" 

 

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Remington

An MV masterpiece.

Not sure why Crockett was so desperate to help Hackman even though he knew he killed others. But get over that and just enjoy.

The ending between Crockett and Dr. Evil...i mean Hackman seals it.

10/10

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ViceFanMan
1 hour ago, Remington said:

An MV masterpiece.

Not sure why Crockett was so desperate to help Hackman even though he knew he killed others. But get over that and just enjoy.

The ending between Crockett and Dr. Evil...i mean Hackman seals it.

10/10

I think Crockett felt more responsible with Hackman in this case, as he personally was one who testified & helped send him to death row...so if Hackman happened to be innocent of that particular murder, then Crockett didn't want him being executed for that. However, he ended up being guilty anyway, and I really liked this episode! 

Ending was pretty "dark" and a little out of left field...even for Crockett. However, out of the 4-part "Crockett goes insane" storyline...this is the only one I truly enjoyed. The others were too bizarre, and a little ridiculous (in my opinion). :eek:

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FerrariDaytonaSpyder

I was 14, going on 15 (the following month) when this episode aired.  I say that only to say that as a teenage boy, I was still of the mindset that good always won, and our heroes would always be rewarded for doing the right thing.  On a side note, but key to what I'm sharing here, I owned Peter Gabriel's, "So" album which contained the song, "We Do What We're Told." I was very familiar with this song when this episode aired, and quite actually enjoyed it.
I remember hearing the familiar notes to the aforementioned song and not thinking anything about it, beyond noting that Jan Hammer selected a song with which I was familiar, from Side B of a cassette I owned.  I remember the smile on Sonny's face as he was enjoying the fruits of a job well-done, seeing Hackman on the good side of the chain link.  Then it all started to come apart.  I remember literally feeling sick to my stomach when the twist occurred at the end.  I couldn't believe what I was watching.  I was concerned less about Hackman being free than I was our hero realizing that he had been straight duped, with the consequences being catastrophic, as a truly bad person was back on the streets, all courtesy of the good heart of James "Sonny" Crockett.  As for Peter Gabriel's song, I cannot hear it now without those sick-to-my-stomach feelings coming back.  It is haunting.  The lyrics (which are very few - "We do what we're told, we do what we're told, we do what we're told, told to do...") were so pertinent and relevant to the storyline... Thirty-one years after it aired, I still remember exactly how I felt when it ended, and that says something about the impact of the episode.

Edited by FerrariDaytonaSpyder
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ViceFanMan
11 hours ago, FerrariDaytonaSpyder said:

I was 14, going on 15 (the following month) when this episode aired.  I say that only to say that as a teenage boy, I was still of the mindset that good always won, and our heroes would always be rewarded for doing the right thing.  On a side note, but key to what I'm sharing here, I owned Peter Gabriel's, "So" album which contained the song, "We Do What We're Told." I was very familiar with this song when this episode aired, and quite actually enjoyed it.
I remember hearing the familiar notes to the aforementioned song and not thinking anything about it, beyond noting that Jan Hammer selected a song with which I was familiar, from Side B of a cassette I owned.  I remember the smile on Sonny's face as he was enjoying the fruits of a job well-done, seeing Hackman on the good side of the chain link.  Then it all started to come apart.  I remember literally feeling sick to my stomach when the twist occurred at the end.  I couldn't believe what I was watching.  I was concerned less about Hackman being free than I was our hero realizing that he had been straight duped, with the consequences being catastrophic, as a truly bad person was back on the streets, all courtesy of the good heart of James "Sonny" Crockett.  As for Peter Gabriel's song, I cannot hear it now without those sick-to-my-stomach feelings coming back.  It is haunting.  The lyrics (which are very few - "We do what we're told, we do what we're told, we do what we're told, told to do...") were so pertinent and relevant to the storyline... Thirty-one years after it aired, I still remember exactly how I felt when it ended, and that says something about the impact of the episode.

MV in my opinion was famous for this...it was the first show of its kind that left very definite impacts on you--whether good or bad. There are so many episodes I remember seeing when they originally aired, and I'll never forget their impact! One is No Exit...I was little and spending the night at a friends. His family watched MV, and it was the coolest show on at the time. I'd also never seen anything like this before either. I'll never forget how much I detested Bruce Willis and couldn't wait for him to get-it! To this day I cannot see Willis in anything without thinking ...there's the evil, wife abusing, illegal weapons dealer Tony Amato! :p I'm sure Bruce Willis would love that. :rolleyes:

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Daytona74

I just watched this episode again.

I have to say I am really impressed by it. It's one of the greatest pieces of Miami Vice-type Film Noir. It's got all the elements of classic 1940s Noir, in that it's about an event in the past and the protagonists having to deal with it again, as well as a mysterious femme fatale whose role in all of it is never really clear. Oh yeah, and the Venetian blinds light and shadow effects. :)

As far as season three goes, this is an unusually good episode. Very well made, and you almost forgive the producers for the earthtones this one time (although they weren't able to filter out all the pastels, as in the scene at Barkley's house).

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ViceFanMan
1 hour ago, Daytona74 said:

I just watched this episode again.

I have to say I am really impressed by it. It's one of the greatest pieces of Miami Vice-type Film Noir. It's got all the elements of classic 1940s Noir, in that it's about an event in the past and the protagonists having to deal with it again, as well as a mysterious femme fatale whose role in all of it is never really clear. Oh yeah, and the Venetian blinds light and shadow effects. :)

As far as season three goes, this is an unusually good episode. Very well made, and you almost forgive the producers for the earthtones this one time (although they weren't able to filter out all the pastels, as in the scene at Barkley's house).

Spot-on observations! :glossy:There are many MV episodes that remind me of 1940s film noir! I've compared other episodes to film noir when posting about them, too. I love film noir, and it's one of my favorite genres! :thumbsup:

The show sort of was what is called neo-noir, or a modernized version of a film noir style: tragedy, femme-fatales, protagonists and/or people making stupid or wrong choices--but you understand & can identify with them, dark shadows or an "off" feeling--despite the pastels and palm trees, etc... However, with MV I guess you could say it was a  ..."neon"-noir. :p

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Daytona74
vor 12 Stunden schrieb ViceFanMan:

Spot-on observations! :glossy:There are many MV episodes that remind me of 1940s film noir! I've compared other episodes to film noir when posting about them, too. I love film noir, and it's one of my favorite genres! :thumbsup:

The show sort of was what is called neo-noir, or a modernized version of a film noir style: tragedy, femme-fatales, protagonists and/or people making stupid or wrong choices--but you understand & can identify with them, dark shadows or an "off" feeling--despite the pastels and palm trees, etc... However, with MV I guess you could say it was a  ..."neon"-noir. :p

 

If you haven't already, I am sure you would enjoy reading the book "Miami Vice" by Steven Sanders. It has an entire chapter dedicated to the connection between Film Noir and Miami Vice.

Also, the short essay "Miami Vice: The legacy of Film Noir" is worth reading:

https://acnoir13.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/butler-miami-vice-and-noir.pdf

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ViceFanMan
4 hours ago, Daytona74 said:

 

If you haven't already, I am sure you would enjoy reading the book "Miami Vice" by Steven Sanders. It has an entire chapter dedicated to the connection between Film Noir and Miami Vice.

Also, the short essay "Miami Vice: The legacy of Film Noir" is worth reading:

https://acnoir13.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/butler-miami-vice-and-noir.pdf

I have not read the book or essay before...I will definitely have to check them out...thank you!! :thumbsup: 

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Daytona74

The book is just over 130 pages long and definitely worth the 20 bucks... it's a bit academic in places, but still a good read, as it really looks at MV in-depth, from a studied art and film critic's point of view... 

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Matt5
On 18/08/2017 at 0:39 PM, Daytona74 said:

 

If you haven't already, I am sure you would enjoy reading the book "Miami Vice" by Steven Sanders. It has an entire chapter dedicated to the connection between Film Noir and Miami Vice.

Also, the short essay "Miami Vice: The legacy of Film Noir" is worth reading:

https://acnoir13.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/butler-miami-vice-and-noir.pdf

Yes I had read that piece - the film noir legacy 

Excellent:hippie:

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Matt5
On 18/08/2017 at 4:59 PM, ViceFanMan said:

I have not read the book or essay before...I will definitely have to check them out...thank you!! :thumbsup: 

I have read one - throughly recommended ViceFanMan :hippie:

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