Episode 100- To have and to hold (aka Second Chance)


Tom

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I just published this episode on my site. Here is a direct link to the page. http://www.miamivicelocations5.org/page21.html The other links are misaligned and I am aware of this so links are a little off temporarily. Has to do with the computer issues I had and reloading the sites. I will work to fix it very soon but right now I am off to thanksgiving with family. The main index page is now page 3 not page 2.

Went thru and corrected all the issues with the site ( I believe ) All links should be working properly now.

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  • 1 year later...
On 12/2/2015 at 10:38 PM, C Glide said:

Went thru and corrected all the issues with the site ( I believe ) All links should be working properly now.

I walked along Lincoln Road looking for the exact spot that Sonny walks with Billy but I couldn't find it.  I thought I would easily locate it based on the right side of this photo - the white columns and the brown columns/pipes.  Both are gone.  It will take some less obvious details to pin this down precisely.

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Edited by airtommy
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41 minutes ago, airtommy said:

I walked along Lincoln Road looking for the exact spot that Sonny walks with Billy but I couldn't find it.  I thought I would easily locate it based on the right side of this photo - the white columns and the brown columns/pipes.  Both are gone.  It will take some less obvious details to pin this down precisely.

To_Have3.png

I'm guessing the large building with windows directly behind Sonny's head is now gone, too? That would be too easy, right? :) 

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43 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

I'm guessing the large building with windows directly behind Sonny's head is now gone, too? That would be too easy, right? :) 

That building is still there.  It's Belle Plaza Condo on Belle Isle.  That and the Suntrust building tell us for certain that we are on Lincoln Road looking westward.  CGlide points out the Suntrust building here:  http://www.miamivicelocations5.org/page21.html

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On 8/16/2015 at 3:15 PM, miamijimf said:

The Episode Guide, Season 5 on this site says the attack took place in the Salero Restaurant, 1000 South Miami Avenue, Miami.  There was a restaurant named the Salero at that time.

Are you sure Salero was there in 1988?  It closed in 2007.  20 years would be a long run for a restaurant.   According to Sunbiz they started the business in 2002, but I'm not sure if the listing is all that definitive:

http://search.sunbiz.org/Inquiry/corporationsearch/SearchResultDetail?inquirytype=EntityName&directionType=ForwardList&searchNameOrder=NEWSPANISHCONCEPTS M020000014250&aggregateId=forl-m02000001425-1d1defa0-75fb-4475-8fdd-1dd59f279ab6&searchTerm=NEW SOUTH EXCAVATING%2C LLC&listNameOrder=NEWSPACEAGEPRODUCTS G755200

Does this pic look like they are on the 1st or 2nd floor?  I'm thinking 2nd but I'm not sure. 

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Notice the big paneless window.  I don't see that anywhere on this fire station.  Nothing in this scene makes me think it's an actual restaurant.  It looks like an empty room that they filled up with tables.

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Edited by airtommy
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7 hours ago, Tom said:

This was first floor and a real location. At one moment there is a car or other traffic seen to pass by. 

I got the car's taillights in my screencap.

If this isn't the fire station, it will be nearly impossible to find the location.

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Caroline's house has a large back yard and large trees.  The location scout did a good job picking a house that doesn't look like South Florida.

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Edited by airtommy
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Am 12.3.2020 um 01:02 schrieb airtommy:

Caroline's house has a large back yard and large trees.  The location scout did a good job picking a house that doesn't look like South Florida.

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Needle in a haystack. They also did a great job in concealing any clues by using close ups only. My earnest guess is that we will never find it.

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  • 1 month later...

Unknown location: Caroline´s home (Ballard house)

Hard to find, but there are clues.

1. behind Crockett (sitting in a chair parallel to the house) there are cars passing by close in both directions, could mean that there is only Caroline´s house on this block between the parallel roads? But there is also a chain fence between Crockett and the street, which could indicate there is a second property behind them. Distance to the street behind is hard to estimate. Maybe 50 yards.

2. If that what we see here is the garden entrance (I assume that because there is no access path on this side of the house, i.e. the guy delivering is actually coming through the garden), then the real house entrance is on the other side, i.e. there is a road on two sides of the house. 

3. There is a fountain in the garden with a very unique layout (unregular shape, moulded edges on both sides).

4. there is a garden house separated from the house by a bush (it is directly behind Caroline who is sitting in a 90 degree angle to the house). There might be a way from where the delivery guy came from the road, thus the roads must be on opposite sides of the house

5. Huge garden with long green hedge to the neighbour garden. Seems to be several big gardens in parallel as no neighbour house visible.

My hunch due to house appearance is Coconut Grove but we have been wrong before ...

 

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Edited by Tom
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Unknown location solved?  The movie theater where Crockett & Billy watch the Frankenstein flick.

The walk scene Crockett & Billy before was filmed on 600 block of Lincoln Road Mall, as also confirmed by CGlide on his location page. http://www.miamivicelocations5.org/page21.html

The Movie theater afterwards is still unknown, but it is very likely that this was the Colony Theater at 1040 Lincoln Road. http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/3085/photos/215097

Of course, it is hard to prove that, since the scenes with Crockett&Billy show only seat rows and no decisive clues from the surrounding or the entrance. But there is a short establishing shot with Billy sitting in the theater at first (see picture below) and this picture matches with the overall size and approximate seat pattern of the Colony (second pic below), even if the theater has been renovated since then and looks more modern now. In the episode it looks very aged.

Crockett& son sit in row 6 with 13 seats in total, 11 rows visible in this shot. There are two main aisles with another two blocks of seats of the same size (would add up to 429 seats in these three blocks in total assuming three identical blocks, which nearly exactly matches the historic seat capacity given with 465). The theater seats are ascending which is not the case in all other old movie theaters. In my current picture the rows are also ascending, but there are 11 seats per middle row, but the seats look broader and the aisles too. A second picture of the current state is here to confirm which shows 374 seats total capacity in 17 rows and 3 blocks with the outer blocks being smaller and only 6 seats per row). 

I am 90% convinced by the layout and the location logistics argument in this case (they rather filmed the walk at Lincoln Road because of the theater location and not vice versa). What do you think? 

P.S. of course I checked other theaters too but they disqualify. The Lincoln Theater that was at 541 Lincoln Road and therefore exactly next the filming location of the walk in this episode, was closed between the early 80s and 1990 when it was renovated for 1+m USD., so it could not have been used for filming in Dec 1988. Another fact speaking in favor of the Colony is the 465 seats total stated which matches approximately what we see in the episode (bear in mind that the 465 relate to the time when it was a movie theater. It was restored afterwards and rebuild into a performing arts theater with stage). The Lincoln had 750 seats.

 

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Edited by Tom
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Very convincing Tom, man the NSA should promote you.  I found these other (outside) Colony views earlier:  Season One’s ‘Calderone’s Return, Pt. 1’ (Hit List) provides five different views as Crockett and Tubbs walk with Linus Oliver along the Mall from 27:55 to 31:33.  Agree?

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vor 6 Minuten schrieb miamijimf:

Very convincing Tom, man the NSA should promote you.  I found these other (outside) Colony views earlier:  Season One’s ‘Calderone’s Return, Pt. 1’ (Hit List) provides five different views as Crockett and Tubbs walk with Linus Oliver along the Mall from 27:55 to 31:33.  Agree?

 

Yes. But no interior view of course.

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On 5/19/2020 at 3:07 PM, Tom said:

Unknown location: Caroline´s home (Ballard house)

1. behind Crockett (sitting in a chair parallel to the house) there are cars passing by close in both directions, could mean that there is only Caroline´s house on this block between the parallel roads? But there is also a chain fence between Crockett and the street, which could indicate there is a second property behind them. Distance to the street behind is hard to estimate. Maybe 50 yards.

2. If that what we see here is the garden entrance (I assume that because there is no access path on this side of the house, i.e. the guy delivering is actually coming through the garden), then the real house entrance is on the other side, i.e. there is a road on two sides of the house.

Miami Shores and the surrounding areas have a lot of houses with streets bordering the front and back of the house.

 

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Am 17.4.2020 um 22:41 schrieb C Glide:

Looks like the Something About Mary area of Coral Gables

That was a very good hint. This is a huge area in Coral Gables and many houses have exactly such green hedges in between and non Florida like vegetation as we see in the episode (this is a feature missing in Coconut Grove or other areas). Also two locations of that episode are nearby. I will take a closer look there.

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Add-on to the unknown Ballard house location:

I don´t know what it is with me, but sometimes I find new clues on third or fourth sight. Or maybe I am just sloppy? But I want to share additional pictures here because that could help to find the house.

Additional clues:

  • the very specific shape of the old stony fountain in the background with moulds
  • the house seems to resemble a T-shaped main body (the bar is the house itself, the short line is the part with the garden door that is used by Crockett and Caroline). This is obvious because in one very brief shot it is revealed that the house goes more to the left (including a window in a 90 degree angle to the other part) behind C&C before there is a short hedge which is then followed by the separate "garden house without window (seen in another pic behind Caroline). The roof part encircled in one picture indicates that this is ONE house with no space in between or separated buildings because there is a hedge in the corner that could cover a potential pathway - at least I checked that possibility. So, we have a main building in a basic T- or at least  L-shape plus a separate small garden house or shack without a window.
  • The house is set back from the roadside a bit with green vegetation in front. That is revealed behind Sonny and Bob at the front door. One picture even shows part of what could be a circled driveway with vegetation.
  • This also means IF there is a separate footpath into the garden from the street, it has to be between the main body to the far left behind Caroline and the garden shack. But they did film it in a way that we never see the few meters in between, so we have to guess.

These new clues should further narrow it down.

My hottest suspect area right now is Coral Gables (as "Something about Mary" locations reveal this area has not only green hedges between gardens big enough like in MV but also some dense vegetation that does not look Florida like which is a great feature of the Ballard house too. The houses also have a bit distance to the curb there).

P.S. the Ballard house has quite a palm tree bunch next to the garden house that does not look like Atlanta, but they did a great job in concealing this. On the other hand, you cannot sit comfortably in your garden in Atlanta in December for lunch anyway, unless you are polar bear :p

P.P.S. the delivery man is a versatile person. He (actor name: Will Knickerbocker) played several times in MV and was shot in the teaser of Walk-Alone as a shady prison guard. 

 

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Edited by Tom
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  • 3 weeks later...

Unknown location: Ballard house

My sketch after a long study and setting the pieces of the puzzle together...

 

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I searched again whole Coral Gables (up to SW8, main reason: the non-Florida look of the house & vegetation and the long hedges) for the Ballard house and no match. Only two or 3 houses that remotedly came close to the shape we see in the episode.

I am a bit stumped where to look next. The NE grid has smaller houses like that but not such big green gardens ...

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Am 24.5.2020 um 19:51 schrieb airtommy:

Miami Shores and the surrounding areas have a lot of houses with streets bordering the front and back of the house.

 

I would not bet on the fact that the Ballard house has no other property between itself and the street in the background. They filmed it exactly in a way to avoid showing what is behind Crockett´s back (unclear area marked with a red "?" in my sketch above). It could be a swimming pool (no fit with "Atlanta"), a neighbor house or else. I tried to suss out the distance to the street in the background with traffic running both ways. I came up with around 50 yards, a bit more or less, hard to say given the lens they used. 50 yards is enough to accomodate another property. And it is much more than the distance of the  iron fence we see on the far right between Crockett and Caroline. 

Thus, I looked at all possible one or two block street segments that fulfill the key search criteria:

  • Very green (some areas have very bad grass) with some high trees, but less to no palm trees or typical SFL jungle.
  • tall hedges between properties
  • garden behind the house long enough
  • smaller but still fancy middle-class residential homes and
  • a match with the house structure on my sketch: a cream white or grey house usually has a similarly colored roof (silver, grey or white), not brick-red or brown, house standing with its broad part alongside the street (most houses face the street and the garden with their narrow side). This excludes 60-70% of houses on the spot.

Thus, I ended up examining the following huge residential areas:

Coral Gables, West Miami, Miami Shores, parts of Alapattah, Miami Springs, North Miami (NW/N of the studio up to 150th Street). I practically searched through half Miami.

What I noticed: From around 10,000 houses I checked, I found only around 20 houses with a similar overhead structure as the Ballard house, but NOT A SINGLE one with two stories! The Ballard house is a two story building, with a one story part sticking out into the garden. I wonder if there is a special zoning code in Miami preventing 2 story buildings in some areas at all. If there is and we can find out where, we could save a lot of search time and further exclude possibilities. I think this one story thing can´t be a coincidence ...? @miamijimfany clues about 2-story prevention zones or where we could look that up? (of course I am aware that zoning stipulations may have changed over time) 

Edited by Tom
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