Freeze...Mitt Vice!

[C Glide]

Just wanted to clear up a couple things here in case someone had not read all the post. It was stated in a post that I had stated Obama had sided with Hitler in WW2. Anyone reading all my post will see that is not true. I never said that. My statements basically referred to the fact that the concepts and policies were trending like that of the progressives under Hitler in 1930's Germany and Obama had the same ideas/policies. It was also stated that I was an Independent. Not true and never stated by me.I am not sure other than listening to bad propaganda based on party designation why someone would think Romney was like Bush. They may both be Rebublicans but Romney's stated plans and philosophys are contrary to Bush's big Govt., Big spending. Bush was closer to Obama just not as accelerated.What surprises me for someone who claims to be a moderate, is why they do not want to vote for the moderate in the race. If it were a choice between a far right person and a far left person than there would be an understandable question as to which way to go. But when a center right moderate does not want to vote for the canidate that is truely a center right moderate it makes me question their claim. Romney being on the left side of the Republican party, Gov. of the People's Republic of Massachusetts and selected to be the canidate largely based on his moderate standing so he would be appealing to moderates/Independents and Blue Dog Democrats. Then why not be supporting the guy who has the same outlook as you state you have?

[DA_PAUL2]

You might consider some other news outlets besides CNN as they sometimes lean far to the left in their reporting and do not always provide balanced reporting' date=' imo.[/quote']OK thanks for the info.Unfortunately thats the only USA focused news channel i can get here on the tv subscription i have

[Brother in Arms]

oh thanks for the info, I know the serie not sorry

[Ferrariman]

I haven't been following this topic but now as I skim through it I see the comments getting heated. So far it's been civil and this is just a reminder that if it escalates I will lock the topic. Let's keep it calm gentleman and remember that everyone is entitled to their opinion.Remember what they say about religion & politics.....

[Sonny-Burnett]

Let's keep it calm gentleman and remember that everyone is entitled to their opinion.Remember what they say about religion & politics.....

Amen to that, F-Man, though with all that is at stake in this election, it is easy for tempers to flare on this topic. Imo, nothing greater has ever been at stake than in this upcoming election.

[Tony D.]

I must add music to that, Ferrariman, since people get heated with that, also!

[Ferrariman]

Amen to that' date=' F-Man, though with all that is at stake in this election, it is easy for tempers to flare on this topic. Imo, nothing greater has ever been at stake than in this upcoming election.[/quote']I hear you. Call me a skeptic but I don't have much faith in either candidate. Haven't for quite a few elections.

[Sonny-Burnett]

I hear you. Call me a skeptic but I don't have much faith in either candidate. Haven't for quite a few elections.

Sounds like perhaps you share my frustration with all the misleading and mostly false attack ads that are flooding the airwaves' date=' and now Obama has launched the most vicious attacks of all accusing Romney of lieing during the debate. An outrageous claim considering how many broken promises and outright lies he has made since taking office. See this site for just some of them: [url']http://obamalies.net/list-of-liesI am an independent and not even registered as such but I can tell you I have never been this engaged in an election and I go back aways. The way I look at it, and I am a financial person who has worked in both Fortune 50 as well as mid-tier companies my entire career, this election needs to be about who can turn this economy around.Obama has had four years to make significant improvements to the economy and even had a supermajority in congress his first 2 years, yet he failed to improve the job picture and, instead, focused on ramming a huge tax increase down our throats in the guise of socialized medicine.Have a look at my lengthy post earlier in this thread to see the economic chaos that has now occurred under Obama's watch. We are facing economic ruin, imo, if we have four more years of Obama's policies. From my perspective we need a business person in the Oval office, one who understands the need to balance the budget..something Obama has not even attempted to do in 4 years and his own party won't even propose one in the Senate in the last 3 years. Disgraceful and has lead to four straight years of huge deficits. A good business person understands that you cannot spend more than what you take in. Romney has led large businesses to profitability in a private equity environment. I have worked in a private equity environment and I can tell you....these people get it and understand how to improve and grow business. They are sharp. Which leads me to jobs...we need someone who can lead job creation as their absolute number one priority. Again I point to 4 straight years of disastrous unemployment under Obama. Don't be fooled by the latest numbers which show a slight improvement and Obama is now touting it. It is also just as likely that the anomolies appearing in the last release will reverse the gains and raise unemployment back up again. The reality is that there are still 23 Million Americans out of work and Obama is proposing nothing to turn that around. On the contrary, he proposes raising taxes on the very people who could create more jobs...just plain stupid, imo. I believe he is either totally incompetent on this subject or that he has another agenda that I don't care to speculate about. Either way it is unacceptable to me. There is a clear choice to me and that is we need a business person who has been there and done that to reduce spending, lower tax rates on job creators, and who will make job creation their number one priority. We don't need four more years of reckless spending, higher taxes, and a president who is more aptly called the campaigner in chief than the commander in chief. Remember, Obama never so much as ran even a small business before becoming President. His entire career is community organizing and teaching law classes before running for the Senate. I can tell you that in the business world you don't get to be CEO without significant business experience and with successes. It makes no sense to do anything different for qualifications to lead the largest economy in the free world. Sorry for the long winded post but I hope it gave you something to consider and perhaps to do your own research on this.

[pahonu]

Charlie, I said I was fiscally right of center, and this is the problem I referenced earlier about our two-party system. On social issues I hold fairly liberal, perhaps even libertarian, positions and the Republican party is very far right in this area, including Romney/Ryan. He has changed his position on several social issues since being Massachusetts governor. I know I said the economy has to take precedent, but I am so far from the Republican position in these areas it's hard to pull the trigger. I think Kavinsky said it best when he wished in a previous post for more than two major parties to choose from. You don't have to believe me that I'm registered as an independant, but this may give you some insight into my, and many other centrist voters. In the 2000 Republican primary I was a big fan of John McCain, but by 2008 he had swung so far right with his selection of Palin, I couldn't vote for him with her on the ticket. You said you're not Republican, Democrat, or Independent. Do you lean Libertarian? The whole reason I jumped into this topic was your post that undecided voters, many of whom are centrists, should simply not vote. I don't agree that all people who are undecided are just uninformed.I don't argue that Romney is different than Bush on fiscal issues, but Romney hasn't been overly detailed about his tax plans or his budget, and that was my initial point. He has stated his plan is not Ryan's, but there is not much else to go on. The general plan seems to be reduce taxes and create jobs. The same was said by Bush in his first years in office and we got a "jobless recovery" as the economists then called it, and more debt. Paradoxically after the Clinton tax increases job growth continued to climb. In truth, the presidents real impact on job creation has its limits.Probably a good idea clearing up any Hitler comments as this is obviously a hot-button issue. I still don't agree with you but your position is more clear.In more strange news, this morning the IMF anounced the US has the best economic outlook for next year among the industrialized nations! Hard to believe this projection, but the Eurozone doesn't even have slow growth and apparently China is set to experience rapid slowing in its, until now double-digit, growth. A Smith-Moore analyst called the US "the best of show" amongst a bunch of economic dogs.

[Sonny-Burnett]

Re the IMF what I have been reading is not all that positive and in fact one headline reads:"(Reuters) - The IMF cut its global growth forecast on Tuesday for the second time since April and warned U.S. and European policymakers that failure to fix their economic ills would prolong the slump."In this article on Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/08/us-imf-global-idUSBRE89715W20121008 ) some excerpts are:"For 2012, the IMF now expects global output to grow just 3.3 percent, down from its July estimate of 3.5 percent, making it the slowest year of growth since 2009" "For the United States, the IMF said its "urgent policy priorities" should include avoiding a so-called "fiscal cliff" from the expected tax increases and spending cuts, raising the government borrowing limit, and agreeing on a credible plan to reduce the deficit.It said the fiscal cliff at the extreme would amount to a fiscal withdrawal of more than 4 percent of GDP in 2013, and economic growth would stall.In the euro area, it said resolving the crisis was the highest priority, and that would require progress toward banking and fiscal union."So much of their gloomy outlook for the U.S. is predicated on the looming fiscal cliff in January if the tax cuts are allowed to expire and our government's failure to rein in spending and reduce the deficit.

[pahonu]

Re the IMF what I have been reading is not all that positive and in fact one headline reads:"(Reuters) - The IMF cut its global growth forecast on Tuesday for the second time since April and warned U.S. and European policymakers that failure to fix their economic ills would prolong the slump."In this article on Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/08/us-imf-global-idUSBRE89715W20121008 ) some excerpts are:"For 2012' date=' the IMF now expects global output to grow just 3.3 percent, down from its July estimate of 3.5 percent, making it the slowest year of growth since 2009" "For the United States, the IMF said its "urgent policy priorities" should include avoiding a so-called "fiscal cliff" from the expected tax increases and spending cuts, raising the government borrowing limit, and agreeing on a credible plan to reduce the deficit.It said the fiscal cliff at the extreme would amount to a fiscal withdrawal of more than 4 percent of GDP in 2013, and economic growth would stall.In the euro area, it said resolving the crisis was the highest priority, and that would require progress toward banking and fiscal union."So much of their gloomy outlook for the U.S. is predicated on the looming fiscal cliff in January if the tax cuts are allowed to expire and our government's failure to rein in spending and reduce the deficit.[/quote']Your right, it certainly isn't that positive, and it is largely based on the looming fiscal cliff. It's in a very divided Congress' hands now. A bit scary. Lets hope they don't get hung up on the debt limit again. What bothered me last time about the debt limit stand-off was that this was money Congress had already allocated and spent, but then refused to raise the limit to pay for. This is confusion of short-term versus long term goals and our bond rating was lowered because of it.I was just shocked that the IMF apparently views the US's expected meager growth rate as the high point in the world economy! European austerity measures have seemingly stalled any growth completely.

[Tony D.]

Wow, look what I started!

[Ferrariman]

Wow' date=' look what I started! [/quote']I can always count on you Tony to start a controversial topic. Remember what I said, religion & politics....

[Sonny-Burnett]

Wow' date=' look what I started! [/quote']Can't wait for the Foreign Policy portion of the debates now. Looking forward to hearing Obama try to spin the Benghazi-Gate debacle.

[Sonny-Burnett]

Your right' date=' it certainly isn't that positive, and it is largely based on the looming fiscal cliff. It's in a very divided Congress' hands now. A bit scary. Lets hope they don't get hung up on the debt limit again. What bothered me last time about the debt limit stand-off was that this was money Congress had already allocated and spent, but then refused to raise the limit to pay for. This is confusion of short-term versus long term goals and our bond rating was lowered because of it.I was just shocked that the IMF apparently views the US's expected meager growth rate as the high point in the world economy! European austerity measures have seemingly stalled any growth completely.[/quote']Yeah that is amazing from the IMF given our dismal outlook. Re the fiscal cliff believe Congress must submit a bill for Obama to sign off and the likely impasse will be Obama refusing to endorse the continuation of the tax cut extensions for all Americans, vs selected classes that he wants. So the bill could be hung up. I recall the debt limit issue and believe that was also a function of Obama wanting a long period before it was revisited again (giving him a blank check) vs Congress wanting it tied to an agreement toward a balanced budget.....something sorely needed right now, imo.

[Tony D.]

I can always count on you Tony to start a controversial topic. Remember what I said' date=' religion & politics....[/quote'].......................and Music! :DI only started this topic to show Mitt's Sonny Crockett moment.

[Sonny-Burnett]

Looking forward to the second presidential debate on Tuesday. This one is a roundtable format moderated by a left-leaning Candy Crowley. The Obama camp (Axelrod et al) has served notice that Obama will be more aggressive than before and will likely level more attacks at Romney such as his Bain experience, some purported issues with his representations in the first debate on topics such as the impact of his proposed tax rate reduction for all Americans, and impact of his Medicare proposal. I would expect Romney to continue to attack Obama's failed record on the economy and use new fodder such as the murder of 4 Americans in Benghazi on the anniversary of 9/11, an attack for which the Obama administration adamantly denied was a terrorist attack for nearly 2 weeks...incredible. Could lead to an interesting debate on foreign policy in general, as I would expect Romney to bring up the other uprisings in the mideast and our weakend state with Al Queda (as reinforced by journalist Lara Logan) and the Taliban. But the wild card in all this is that the questions are supposed to come from the audience of everyday citizens. So who knows.

[Sonny-Burnett]

Four more days to the election, and I for one hope the result will not be a repeat of the last 4 years. Lately I'm particularly appalled by the so-called Mainstream Media's failure to cover the scandal behind the deaths of 4 Americans in Benghazi, so called Benghazigate, where for 7 or 8 hours our government failed to send any help to those under fire. I think it is despicable how such a major scandal that appears to go to the highest levels of government, including the Secretary of State, the Director of the CIA and even the White House via the situation room has been swept under the rug by the news media. They all had access to live video streams from overhead drones during this assault. Yet the White House will release no details nor will the CIA or Department of State. Where has the so called independent objectivity gone from news reporting? It never stopped them during Watergate, and no Americans were killed during that event. The only network giving this serious coverage:http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/10/30/to-live-and-die-in-benghazi-libya-without-leadership-from-america/

[Ferrariman]

Honestly, after the results of hurricane Sandy across New Jersey, New York, Connecticut and several other states I'm surprised that election day hasn't been pushed forward a week or 2 until we can regain some sense of normalcy. Way too many people from these states have no way of even getting to the polls (if they are even working) and frankly, if my home were just washed away, going to vote wouldn't be topps on my to do list!

[Sonny-Burnett]

Honestly' date=' after the results of hurricane Sandy across New Jersey, New York, Connecticut and several other states I'm surprised that election day hasn't been pushed forward a week or 2 until we can regain some sense of normalcy. Way too many people from these states have no way of even getting to the polls (if they are even working) and frankly, if my home were just washed away, going to vote wouldn't be topps on my to do list![/quote']So true and hope many are able to get back on their feet in your neck of the woods. I see also that the Feds are slow to provide relief in the wake of the storm and hope that will not be a repeat of Katrina for you East-Coasters. An interesting question about pushing out the election date. I wonder if that has ever been done or there is a precedent?

[Ferrariman]

I don't believe it's ever been done before but this would be a good time to consider it. They even moved Halloween to Nov. 5th for the kids. As for the feds, I don't think their response has been slow. More likely they are simply overwhelmed like every other agency involved. The damage reaches much further than just the few pics they keep showing. This is going to take months, if not years to rebuild.

[Kavinsky]

Hmm I don't know, how many electoral votes is your state worth? that might factor into it.I don't know anyways I'm thinking the same thing that they should postpone it. but on the flipside I really want to stop seeing Elizabeth Warren and Scott brown ads on all of the videos I click on, on youtube.as the more I see those ads the less I want to vote, just to get back at both of them for having unskippabile ads on my videos and all of the damn TV ads.like leave me alone, my mind is made up so please get the hell out of my living room Ms Cherokee maiden, you ain't gettin' in.

[Sonny-Burnett]

Hmm I don't know' date=' how many electoral votes is your state worth? that might factor into it.I don't know anyways I'm thinking the same thing that they should postpone it. but on the flipside I really want to stop seeing Elizabeth Warren and Scott brown ads on all of the videos I click on, on youtube.as the more I see those ads the less I want to vote, just to get back at both of them for having unskippabile ads on my vids.[/quote']Funny that no one in the news media is discussing the possibility of rescheduling the election. As it is such a close race (apparently) maybe the time frame does not allow for possible recounts and challenges that may occur post voting should there be a tie in the electoral college, even though I think that is a remote possibility. With the Holidays coming up and January being swearing in time, maybe there is not enough time. Agree that the ads are out of control and ridiculously negative and, unfortunately, loaded with blatant lies that some will believe. As I do not live in a swing state (wish I was) we get mostly local and state level ads. I wished I had seen some of your Senatorial debates with Warren vs Brown.

[Kavinsky]

Funny that no one in the news media is discussing the possibility of rescheduling the election. As it is such a close race (apparently) maybe the time frame does not allow for possible recounts and challenges that may occur post voting should there be a tie in the electoral college' date=' even though I think that is a remote possibility. With the Holidays coming up and January being swearing in time, maybe there is not enough time. Agree that the ads are out of control and ridiculously negative and, unfortunately, loaded with blatant lies that some will believe. As I do not live in a swing state (wish I was) we get mostly local and state level ads. I wished I had seen some of your Senatorial debates with Warren vs Brown.[/quote']just one look at that woman during the ads and you can tell she's not fit for anything, let alone the job at harvard that she partly got by saying she was 1 or 2% Indian.turns out her grandfather, the one she said was part Indian was apparently a guard at a fort that shot at them.so just on that lie alone I aint voting for her.honestly I never watched the debate between those two, figured it make my blood pressure rise even more, besides we need some sort of balance in this heavily democratic state here.

[Sonny-Burnett]

just one look at that woman during the ads and you can tell she's not fit for anything' date=' let alone the job at harvard that she partly got by saying she was 1 or 2% Indian.[/quote']Yeah and if memory serves me correctly, she also draws a university salary of around $325,000 to teach ONE class! I'm sure she can relate to and will look out for the average Joe, right? :DNo wonder college tuition costs are rising in a down economy.

honestly I never watched the debate between those two, figured it make my blood pressure rise even more, besides we need some sort of balance in this heavily democratic state here.

I feel your pain there. Illinois is a state known for always voting Democratic, despite its long track record of corruption (e.g, Chicago politics and look at how many ex-Governors served time) and out of control spending by our Democratically-controlled legislature. We are ranked near the bottom of all states for fiscal irresponsibility, and we have the same problem facing California in unfunded government pensions. Chicago has some of the highest local taxes in the country to fuel its budget deficits.