Episode #84 "Honor Among Thieves?"

[RedDragon86]

Its like a bad episode of X-Files, and the killer  might as well have been Pee-wee Herman, I couldn't take him seriously. The only disturbing thing about the episode was that guys (Benny) atrocious acting half way through.

The disturbing level was wildly unreasonable. Little Miss Dangerous, Shadow In The  Dark and Death & The Lady were the episodes when they did it correctly. 

[Assasinge]

+1 on this, this was definetly too dark and out of bounds for a show like Vice to be handling. I remember even the first time I saw it seeing "Raped?...Drugged up?...Killed?" Nearly vomited, don't know how I lasted through the episode. The killer was pretty crap though, they just tried to make him like your generic run of the mill pedophile lookin' guy.

 

 

[RedDragon86]

6 minutes ago, Assasinge said:

+1 on this, this was definetly too dark and out of bounds for a show like Vice to be handling. I remember even the first time I saw it seeing "Raped?...Drugged up?...Killed?" Nearly vomited, don't know how I lasted through the episode. The killer was pretty crap though, they just tried to make him like your generic run of the mill pedophile lookin' guy.

 

 

He was a complete dork.

Edited November 18, 2019 by RedDragon86

[RedDragon86]

On 5/23/2019 at 5:21 PM, Robbie C. said:

Steven Sanders has a good discussion of this episode in his book, comparing it to the movie 'M' and calling it Vice's most distinctive intertextual episodes because of the parallels between it and 'M'. You also have the scene at the end where the two bodies, one dressed in dark colors the other in light, form an X in the middle of the dance floor. Classic Noir.

I haven't got around to watching 'M' but I am aware that Peter Lorre's character was based on real life serial killer Karl Haarmann "The Butcher of Hanover" who in his childhood played with doll's.

Was the doll angle in the film?

[Robbie C.]

Not sure. It wouldn't surprise me, though.

[Dadrian]

“Tripes à la mode de Caen”...

The meal after which Tubbs makes his snide remark to Cyrus. 
 

I have a question for any food buffs here:

It’s my understanding that “chitterlings” are from pigs, and tripe is from cows. 

Was Tubbs somehow technically correct in his statement?

If not, it Cyrus missed a great “well, actually...” comeback opportunity.  
 

Edit- not sure what’s up with the huge font size here...

Edited February 4, 2021 by Dadrian

[Tom]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb Dadrian:

“Tripes à la mode de Caen”...

The meal after which Tubbs makes his snide remark to Cyrus. 
 

I have a question for any food buffs here:

It’s my understanding that “chitterlings” are from pigs, and tripe is from cows. 

Was Tubbs somehow technically correct in his statement?

If not, it Cyrus missed a great “well, actually...” comeback opportunity.  
 

Edit- not sure what’s up with the huge font size here...

You are right and Tubbs was technically not correct on this (Tripes a la mode de Caen is from cattle or cows and chitlins are not). But Cyrus was a redneck type of guy from Georgia, who gulped the Chateau la tour like a can of beer, so he was not prepared to comeback here at all 

[Dadrian]

1 minute ago, Tom said:

redneck type of guy from Georgia

Hey watch it now 

[AndrewRemington]

30 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

Hey watch it now 

The Devil went down to Georgia, he was looking for a synth to steal.

[FlemFan]

On 6/26/2011 at 1:38 PM, VinceLombard said:

what's with the toothbrush?Yeah, can anyone explain to me what's up with the toothbrush throughout the many scenes at the begining? lolOk so they are in the bathroom brushing teeth, fine that scene goes for a ittle, then theyexit the room, -but they are still having toothbrushes in their mouths...then they are goingdownstairs to meet other players, still brushing.....then they are talking still brushing and waiving toothbrushes around........:birdie:ok......is this episode sponsored by The National Dentist Associacion, or is it a undervocer Collgate comercial......or what is the point of focucing of 3rd of an episode on toothbrushes?ps.-funny how they are walking and brushing with no water and no spiting and then they are done....lol did they swallow it???? lol

The toothbrush was Crockett's complaint, not the tuxedoes. He kept it on him like a trophy, the guys got a little fixated after a few days of lock in. Super atmospheric episode. Tubbs didn't want to leave to make the call--he was trying to memorize the faces of every gang member in the jury!

Will someone comment on the boys' evening habits? Did they avoid sleeping with the ladies of the evening for days at a time or keep their cover?!

[ViceFanMan]

This is definitely one of the more bizarre and creepy...but yet humorous episodes of the series! This one is definitely a "detour" from the norm with MV (as was "Shadow In the Dark") and dives into the world of the psychologically disturbed, multiple personality disorder, and schizophrenia.

I always love the psychological, suspenseful, eerie, bizarre, wild, etc...type of thing, and this episode is superb in those areas!  The opening was downright disturbing and makes your skin crawl ...but was captivating and intriguing as well! John Bowman did a fantastic job of playing the psycho "doll killer" Delgado!

However, although he was truly creepy with that doll-voice, it was fairly humorous.  But, pretty eerie the way he would converse back and forth with that and his own voice...in his mind he was actually conversing with the dolls. This was very reminiscent of Norman Bates from the Hitchcock classic movie Psycho.

Dolls are creepy to me anyway (I've seen one too many scary movies ) and that just added to the freaky aspect to this one...it was awesome! The idea that Delgado was making the girls he murdered up to look just like the dolls was also pretty demented and very Criminal Minds/CSI-ish.

But, there were a few moments were Delgado was more funny (almost slap-stick humor) while talking with & for the dolls...such as when the cops drove by and he had one of the dolls with him—and had to hide her & cover her mouth so ‘she’ wouldn’t be loud enough for them to hear. I’m sorry, but that makes me laugh my rear off every time I see it.  

However, most of the time the episode was pretty twisted. One of the only (if the only) somewhat "goofy" aspects to this episode is Crockett's whole infatuation with the stupid toothbrush. What the heck was up with that?  It didn't really seem to make sense or go along with the plot at all...almost like they wrote the episode, then went back and decided to throw in this idea of Crockett walking around with a toothbrush in his mouth all the time.  

I did like some of the fashion in this one, and Gina & Trudy were freakin' hot!! LOL! The pastels and clothes of the girls while Delgado was walking around the carnival looking for fresh victims were also really cool and very 80's.  

The so-called "trial" was also a little over-the-top. I mean, really? The drug-dealer/mob guys wouldn't mess with all that complication and trouble...they'd just take Delgado out somewhere and kill him, probably disposing of the body where it would be found and would send a "message" to all the drug dealers & buyers--that the killer was taken care of and business could resume as usual.

The end where Delgado jumps from the catwalk and lands on Palmo was also somewhat ridiculous...like Palmo wouldn't move? The music used was awesome!! I loved both songs: Sweet Sixteen by Billy Idol and Rag Doll by Aerosmith (the title of that one obviously tying in with the plot) and they really helped "make" the episode.  

But, not gonna lie...to this day, every time I hear the song Rag Doll, I immediately think of this episode and Delgado’s crazy voice & start laughing, lol!  Overall this episode was wild, bizarre, sometimes goofy, but awesome and mesmerizing too! I enjoy it...another of my favorites of Season 4! I originally gave it a 9, and I’ll stand by that. 

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

I never commented on this episode? Wow, I must've been asleep at the Caddy (I've actually driven a Cadillac, so this can actually be true, but I was wide awake the entire time, I promise!).

First off, I love these serial killer Vice episodes, and this might be my favorite one, since 'Little Miss Dangerous' makes me sad (Jackie being broken & never really standing a chance, Cat's love for her being futile) and I like this more than 'Love at First Sight'.

I like Palmo as the kingpin here, I think Ramy Zada does a great job (I've only seen Zada in two other productions, 1989's "After midnight" and 1990's "Funny About love". I thought he was super in "After Midnight", and Judie Aronson is in that film anthology, and I like her; I think she's sweet, sexy, & beautiful). It seems that Castillo isn't too impressed with Palmo, unlike he was with Louis McCarthy (I feel that McCarthy's smoother, while Palmo has a laid-back facade but is more intense; the events of this episode do not help his disposition any).

I also liked Beausouire, since the pronunciation of his name reminded me of a guy named Bozalarri, who headed the local water department when I was a little kid (I called him "Bozo Larry").

I love how Crockett & Tubbs are just STUCK at Palmo's, but I never quite got why Tubbs was poking the bear when it came to Cyrus (I like Tubbs's "Strike up the band baby" line directed at Cyrus, I can dig it).

That Delgado though, I think he's a complex character: part of Palmo's gang, an informant, & a sicko serial killer. Geez.

Love "The trial":: Crockett gives it a good shot (Johnnie Cochran had to be proud; "You don't want to, BUT YOU MUST!" Love it). Mostly, I look at it as Crockett buying time for the calvary to arrive.

Which one is it?". "Take you pick": good line by Crockett, and for me a perfect end to this episode.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Eillio Martin Imbasciati
needed re-wording, misspelling

[Jack Gretsky]

Miami Vice's take on the German classic M - a killer of children is sought by not only the police, but the criminals as well because of all the heat. A kangaroo court figures into the proceedings.  Sonny and Tubbs are deep undercover with one of the drug lords, so they find themselves assisting the crooks during their "police" investigation.  

I like the "Rag Doll" sequence with its "night vice" atmosphere.  The carnival scenes are colorful too. 

Distasteful, but riveting tale.  As with so many S4 episodes, it would be a weaker entry in an earlier season, but it's one of the better ones for this year.  And, yikes, Cyrus sure chose the wrong room for a bout of fisticuffs, didn't he? 

[Buddy Love]

Creepy topic yes, but some good twists in the plot, 6Crocket having to defend the perv killer. 
 

The ending as a bit lame though. I’m not sure though how I would have improved it. 

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

2 hours ago, Buddy Love said:

Creepy topic yes, but some good twists in the plot, 6Crocket having to defend the perv killer. 
 

The ending as a bit lame though. I’m not sure though how I would have improved it. 

I don't LOVE the ending, but I feel that Crockett salvages it with his "Take your pick" line. Funny, this episode came to my mind earlier today (half my mind is "Miami Vice", the other half is swampland & sandbar; hey, the rent there is cheap!) due to Crockett's, "You don't want to, BUT YOU MUST" line (what can I say, I don't like rainy days, but I had to  go to a book sale).

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

16 hours ago, Jack Gretsky said:

Miami Vice's take on the German classic M - a killer of children is sought by not only the police, but the criminals as well because of all the heat. A kangaroo court figures into the proceedings.  Sonny and Tubbs are deep undercover with one of the drug lords, so they find themselves assisting the crooks during their "police" investigation.  

I like the "Rag Doll" sequence with its "night vice" atmosphere.  The carnival scenes are colorful too. 

Distasteful, but riveting tale.  As with so many S4 episodes, it would be a weaker entry in an earlier season, but it's one of the better ones for this year.  And, yikes, Cyrus sure chose the wrong room for a bout of fisticuffs, didn't he? 

Yeah, I kind of like Cyrus, but he's definitely not the smartest Buddha in the temple, or is Florida's lucky lotto winner either.

[RedDragon86]

On 7/30/2021 at 5:18 AM, ViceFanMan said:

This is definitely one of the more bizarre and creepy...but yet humorous episodes of the series! This one is definitely a "detour" from the norm with MV (as was "Shadow In the Dark") and dives into the world of the psychologically disturbed, multiple personality disorder, and schizophrenia.

I always love the psychological, suspenseful, eerie, bizarre, wild, etc...type of thing, and this episode is superb in those areas!  The opening was downright disturbing and makes your skin crawl ...but was captivating and intriguing as well! John Bowman did a fantastic job of playing the psycho "doll killer" Delgado!

However, although he was truly creepy with that doll-voice, it was fairly humorous.  But, pretty eerie the way he would converse back and forth with that and his own voice...in his mind he was actually conversing with the dolls. This was very reminiscent of Norman Bates from the Hitchcock classic movie Psycho.

Dolls are creepy to me anyway (I've seen one too many scary movies ) and that just added to the freaky aspect to this one...it was awesome! The idea that Delgado was making the girls he murdered up to look just like the dolls was also pretty demented and very Criminal Minds/CSI-ish.

But, there were a few moments were Delgado was more funny (almost slap-stick humor) while talking with & for the dolls...such as when the cops drove by and he had one of the dolls with him—and had to hide her & cover her mouth so ‘she’ wouldn’t be loud enough for them to hear. I’m sorry, but that makes me laugh my rear off every time I see it.  

However, most of the time the episode was pretty twisted. One of the only (if the only) somewhat "goofy" aspects to this episode is Crockett's whole infatuation with the stupid toothbrush. What the heck was up with that?  It didn't really seem to make sense or go along with the plot at all...almost like they wrote the episode, then went back and decided to throw in this idea of Crockett walking around with a toothbrush in his mouth all the time.  

I did like some of the fashion in this one, and Gina & Trudy were freakin' hot!! LOL! The pastels and clothes of the girls while Delgado was walking around the carnival looking for fresh victims were also really cool and very 80's.  

The so-called "trial" was also a little over-the-top. I mean, really? The drug-dealer/mob guys wouldn't mess with all that complication and trouble...they'd just take Delgado out somewhere and kill him, probably disposing of the body where it would be found and would send a "message" to all the drug dealers & buyers--that the killer was taken care of and business could resume as usual.

The end where Delgado jumps from the catwalk and lands on Palmo was also somewhat ridiculous...like Palmo wouldn't move? The music used was awesome!! I loved both songs: Sweet Sixteen by Billy Idol and Rag Doll by Aerosmith (the title of that one obviously tying in with the plot) and they really helped "make" the episode.  

But, not gonna lie...to this day, every time I hear the song Rag Doll, I immediately think of this episode and Delgado’s crazy voice & start laughing, lol!  Overall this episode was wild, bizarre, sometimes goofy, but awesome and mesmerizing too! I enjoy it...another of my favorites of Season 4! I originally gave it a 9, and I’ll stand by that. 

You give this a 9? 

Wow!

Edited November 7, 2021 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

15 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

My Life you give this a 9?

I don’t know about your life ...but perhaps a 9 is a little too high. A 7-8 is probably more accurate. 

[RedDragon86]

3 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I don’t know about your life ...but perhaps a 9 is a little too high. A 7-8 is probably more accurate. 

But VFM 9 is close to a masterpiece though.

[ViceFanMan]

42 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

But VFM 9 is close to a masterpiece though.

It’s close...’but not quite’.  But, like I said a 9 possibly was too high. A 7-8 is probably a more accurate rating. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[Miami Beau]

I actually watched this episode last night so here are just some random thoughts/opinions on the episode. 

Interesting and memorable episode from season 4. The positives for me are the fashion, locations and music. “Sweet Sixteen” by Billy Idol is used which is great, Some of the acting it pretty decent aswell from the guy who played Palmo. He would of been good as a returning villain character had they not killed him off. 

That said actually my biggest pet peeve of the whole episode is the Palmo death. Ok they killed him but the use of that zoomed in close up shot of Palmo’s face before he dies was ridiculous. One of the few times I can honestly say the editor should of removed that shot. Completely took me out of the moment and went from a dark interesting moment to a goofy one. Small thing but it’s something I’ve always remembered about this episode ever since I first watched it years ago. 
 

Never been a massive fan of Delgado’s theme by John Petersen. It is memorable and stands out but it comes across as a little to soap opera for me and lacked the sleeker vibes from Jan Hammer eg. Death and the Lady. 

Also the random Jazz saxophone music cue that plays when Crockett and Tubbs were brushing their teeth was a bit cheesy. 

The character Benny was interesting but the actor playing the part, failed to pull it off convincingly. That’s the thing, good intentions and maybe with a few changes, this episode could of been very strong. 
 

For season 4 terms, this is a stronger episode with more things going on. Castillo has a bit more to do here which is nice and this episode had that strong early 1988 season 4 vibe which I like.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Miami Beau

[johnnyfarragut]

The kangaroo court scene is presumably an homage to Fritz Lang's 'M' (1931).

Edited October 31, 2022 by johnnyfarragut

[Jack Gretsky]

On 11/5/2021 at 6:48 PM, Jack Gretsky said:

Miami Vice's take on the German classic M - a killer of children is sought by not only the police, but the criminals as well because of all the heat. A kangaroo court figures into the proceedings.  Sonny and Tubbs are deep undercover with one of the drug lords, so they find themselves assisting the crooks during their "police" investigation.  

I like the "Rag Doll" sequence with its "night vice" atmosphere.  The carnival scenes are colorful too. 

Distasteful, but riveting tale.  As with so many S4 episodes, it would be a weaker entry in an earlier season, but it's one of the better ones for this year.  And, yikes, Cyrus sure chose the wrong room for a bout of fisticuffs, didn't he? 

I referred to this as one of S4's "better ones" two years ago, but I was more bored with it this time around.  This "M" remake comes off as cliched and forced and, as I said, distasteful.  I've seen this sort of plotline in so many other TV shows.  The "look" of this episode is definitely striking, but I was more intrigued with the Crockett-and-Tubbs-at-Palmo's-mansion storyline - that in itself could have been a full episode.