Gina Calabrese: Saundra Santiago

[NeonHumidity]

Gina was always named as "Gina Navarro Calabrese" in all promo material and was shown to speak fluent Spanish from the earliest episodes, so they weren't exactly hiding her Hispanic side.  In the early 80's I think the Lucy/Desi paradigm of Latin-heritage people being seen as more "foreigners" rather than a different race additionally held sway.  

Furthermore, she and Crockett were never shown making love; they had a real kiss once and sat next to each other mostly naked, and they flirted a lot, in addition to clearly having strong feelings for each other (all of which would have probably outraged any supposed racists had Gina not been "white enough").  But his extended sex scenes were with other (white) women (and Gina's impactful ones were with other Caucasian-European men; the one episode of interaction she had with a guy who played a Hispanic character was stilted, to say the least). 

I don't think they were whitewashing Gina's character for public consumption simply because I don't think people would have cared.  "Hispanic" has never really been the kind of interracial relationship trigger in the US that White + "Black" or "Asian" or even "Jewish" have been.

And as others have said, it didn't really factor into the plot, wasn't treated like an interracial relationship, and basically no one noticed.  If Crockett had tried to date Trudy or Gina had gone out with Tubbs, there probably would have been much more attention.

Edited Saturday at 04:40 AM by NeonHumidity

[RedDragon86]

22 hours ago, NeonHumidity said:

Gina was always named as "Gina Navarro Calabrese" in all promo material and was shown to speak fluent Spanish from the earliest episodes, so they weren't exactly hiding her Hispanic side.  In the early 80's I think the Lucy/Desi paradigm of Latin-heritage people being seen as more "foreigners" rather than a different race additionally held sway.  

Furthermore, she and Crockett were never shown making love; they had a real kiss once and sat next to each other mostly naked, and they flirted a lot, in addition to clearly having strong feelings for each other (all of which would have probably outraged any supposed racists had Gina not been "white enough").  But his extended sex scenes were with other (white) women (and Gina's impactful ones were with other Caucasian-European men; the one episode of interaction she had with a guy who played a Hispanic character was stilted, to say the least). 

I don't think they were whitewashing Gina's character for public consumption simply because I don't think people would have cared.  "Hispanic" has never really been the kind of interracial relationship trigger in the US that White + "Black" or "Asian" or even "Jewish" have been.

And as others have said, it didn't really factor into the plot, wasn't treated like an interracial relationship, and basically no one noticed.  If Crockett had tried to date Trudy or Gina had gone out with Tubbs, there probably would have been much more attention.

After starting the show again, I am starting to lean to towards her bring Hispanic. It was that moment in "Cool Runnin" where she gets annoyed at someone pronouncing Echevierra wrong, that was personal.

It's still debatable though.

 

Edited Saturday at 04:32 PM by RedDragon86

[NeonHumidity]

2 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

After stating the show again, I am starting to lean to towards her bring Hispanic. It was that moment in "Cool Runnin" where she gets annoyed at someone pronouncing Echevierra wrong, that was personal.

It's still debatable though.

Not when the show had a whole episode talking about how she was born in Cuba to a Cuban family just to explain why she had a "Spanish" surname (Basque, but close enough?) and spoke fluent Spanish from the first season.

She is Hispanic, specifically Cubana, additionally raised Italian/Calabrian.  

Any other show these kinds of things are treated as generally canon and done, rather than seen as mistakes or debatable.

Edited Saturday at 02:56 PM by NeonHumidity

[ViceFanMan]

13 hours ago, NeonHumidity said:

Gina was always named as "Gina Navarro Calabrese" in all promo material and was shown to speak fluent Spanish from the earliest episodes, so they weren't exactly hiding her Hispanic side.  In the early 80's I think the Lucy/Desi paradigm of Latin-heritage people being seen as more "foreigners" rather than a different race additionally held sway.  

Furthermore, she and Crockett were never shown making love; they had a real kiss once and sat next to each other mostly naked, and they flirted a lot, in addition to clearly having strong feelings for each other (all of which would have probably outraged any supposed racists had Gina not been "white enough").  But his extended sex scenes were with other (white) women (and Gina's impactful ones were with other Caucasian-European men; the one episode of interaction she had with a guy who played a Hispanic character was stilted, to say the least). 

I don't think they were whitewashing Gina's character for public consumption simply because I don't think people would have cared.  "Hispanic" has never really been the kind of interracial relationship trigger in the US that White + "Black" or "Asian" or even "Jewish" have been.

And as others have said, it didn't really factor into the plot, wasn't treated like an interracial relationship, and basically no one noticed.  If Crockett had tried to date Trudy or Gina had gone out with Tubbs, there probably would have been much more attention.

In the 80s they couldn’t show as much with sex scenes on TV. But, it was definitely implied that Crockett and Gina had a sexual relationship. I don’t think their races had anything to do with that (whether the characters or the actors in real life).

Perhaps if they had tried to get Crockett and Trudy together it would have had a different impact…but, MV crossed a lot of barriers & pushed the proverbial envelope with lots of things at the time. One was they included a lot of races, ethnic backgrounds, and cultures in different episodes.

And no, it wasn’t specifically Crockett…but the show did have or portray some interracial relationships. Castillo had May Ying (who was Asian), Noogie had a white wife, and Tubbs’ former partner Clarence Batisse (from the episode “Better Living Through Chemistry”) had a white girlfriend and/or wife, just to name a few off the top of my head.

I think that for the time, MV was awesome with again…trying to include many different ethnic backgrounds, cultures, races, etc…

[RedDragon86]

9 hours ago, NeonHumidity said:

Not when the show had a whole episode talking about how she was born in Cuba to a Cuban family just to explain why she had a "Spanish" surname (Basque, but close enough?) and spoke fluent Spanish from the first season.

She is Hispanic, specifically Cubana, additionally raised Italian/Calabrian.  

Any other show these kinds of things are treated as generally canon and done, rather than seen as mistakes or debatable.

Yeah but that was in a brand new season with new writers. Season 3 is basically a different show.

She wasn't specifically mentioned as Spanish during 1-2.

[Robbie C.]

1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said:

Yeah but that was in a brand new season with new writers. Season 3 is basically a different show.

She wasn't specifically mentioned as Spanish during 1-2.

This is very much the case. Vice had an unusual amount of fluidity in show runners/producers/whatever, even for the time. And don't forget the main focus of Vice was usually visual. Characters were at times an afterthought. Castillo is an exception, but that has more to do with EJO and his conditions for working on the show.

[NeonHumidity]

6 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

Yeah but that was in a brand new season with new writers. Season 3 is basically a different show.

She wasn't specifically mentioned as Spanish during 1-2.

So Castillo isn't a mysterious ninja, Crockett doesn't have an ex-wife and son out there, and nothing that happened during the first two seasons is linked to what we see in the following three?

They changed the clothes, the colors and the car.  They didn't reboot the show.

She speaks fluent Spanish, multiple times, to the minor picky "Echevarría" point, and afaik she's always been listed as "Navarro" (which would, actually, be "mentioning her as Spanish".  Or at least Hispanic).

When was she specifically mentioned as Italian, other than the name?

For all of the "oh they just randomly decided to make her Hispanic in Season 3" -- without Gina being Cuban the show has no representation at all of one of Miami's largest and most significant demographics.  Which makes no sense.  

They actually need her to be Latina far more than they need her to be Italian.  It's not really a whim.  Also, again, they're not mutually exclusive.  Hispanic by birth; Italian by upbringing; she can be both.  

 

[Robbie C.]

3 hours ago, NeonHumidity said:

For all of the "oh they just randomly decided to make her Hispanic in Season 3" -- without Gina being Cuban the show has no representation at all of one of Miami's largest and most significant demographics.  Which makes no sense.

Izzy is Cuban, so no...they didn't leave them out. It's also implied that Castillo is of Cuban origin as well ("Charles Bronson by way of Havana") in the first episode he appears. So once again they weren't excluded.

[RedDragon86]

On 4/20/2024 at 4:55 PM, NeonHumidity said:

So Castillo isn't a mysterious ninja, Crockett doesn't have an ex-wife and son out there, and nothing that happened during the first two seasons is linked to what we see in the following three?

They changed the clothes, the colors and the car.  They didn't reboot the show.

She speaks fluent Spanish, multiple times, to the minor picky "Echevarría" point, and afaik she's always been listed as "Navarro" (which would, actually, be "mentioning her as Spanish".  Or at least Hispanic).

When was she specifically mentioned as Italian, other than the name?

For all of the "oh they just randomly decided to make her Hispanic in Season 3" -- without Gina being Cuban the show has no representation at all of one of Miami's largest and most significant demographics.  Which makes no sense.  

They actually need her to be Latina far more than they need her to be Italian.  It's not really a whim.  Also, again, they're not mutually exclusive.  Hispanic by birth; Italian by upbringing; she can be both.  

 

The changes weren't just cosmetic, all of the writers left along with the executive producer and line producer.

Season 3 was a brand new platform.

Imagine David Chase, Terrence Winter and all of the writers leaving after season 2 of The Sopranos, the vision for the series would go down a different path.

Edited Sunday at 06:36 PM by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

7 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

The changes weren't just cosmetic, all of the writers left along with the executive producer and line producer.

Season 3 was brand new platform.

Imagine David Chase, Terrence Winter and all of the writers leaving after season 2 of The Sopranos, the vision for the series would go down a different path.

True…Dick Wolf was sadly handed the production reins from Michael Mann (who only stayed involved by name only), and Wolf brought in his people & writers instead.

[Robbie C.]

2 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

The changes weren't just cosmetic, all of the writers left along with the executive producer and line producer.

Season 3 was brand new platform.

Imagine David Chase, Terrence Winter and all of the writers leaving after season 2 of The Sopranos, the vision for the series would go down a different path.

Add to this the fact Vice was really conceived by Mann as primarily a visual vehicle and it makes the change even more significant. Vice is rather unique when compared to other shows in that way. You can see the changes during season one as the impact of Yerkovich and his more traditional character-driven plotting and focus recedes and Mann's more visual emphasis takes over. Then you take Mann away and there's really nothing left to fall back on.

[vicegirl85]

On 4/20/2024 at 10:55 AM, NeonHumidity said:

Not when the show had a whole episode talking about how she was born in Cuba to a Cuban family just to explain why she had a "Spanish" surname (Basque, but close enough?) and spoke fluent Spanish from the first season.

She is Hispanic, specifically Cubana, additionally raised Italian/Calabrian.  

Any other show these kinds of things are treated as generally canon and done, rather than seen as mistakes or debatable.

While I agree with you that Gina was undoubtedly presented as being of Hispanic/ Cuban origin (mainly because of her apparently fluent Spanish to my perception), and I recognized that Calabrese was an Italian-origin name, I also agree that the story of her mother Elena Obregon was tacked on with no prior reference.  In fact, Gina told Sean Carroon that she had several brothers and sisters (without saying if they were older or younger, or really giving any info about her family).  There was never any explanation of, or reference to, her ancestry/ heritage--just as all of the others were barely hinted at. 

Tubbs' brother was killed by the Calderone gang,  Crockett was a football star at U of Florida and served in Vietnam; when the show starts his marriage is on the rocks and he has a 6-year-old son; Switek is an Elvis fan, Zito is from Staten Island, Trudy has an old boyfriend, Castillo did some top-secret work in SE Asia for "the agency" and had a Chinese wife who he thought was killed, but wasn't.  He was also ambushed, attacked and left for dead--seemingly by men on his own team.  When he recovered he left the agency and went into police work to continue to fight the drug traffic.   The lack of background and detail made it easier for the show runners to add in details later that don't necessarily relate to past history, but also might have happened. 

For me, this family history for Gina made sense and was something that could have happened; however, I can see why some think it was a "mistake" or "debatable."  I do think a lot of people seem to feel this was tacked on, and not necessarily gracefully.

Virtually everyone's background was very lightly sketched.  Castillo had the most background--but EJO was given control over his character to a degree that none of the other actors were.  For me, Season 3 is not too late to add depth to a character's canon identity.  The way I reconciled this story into canon was that after Gina's mother was killed, she was given to her aunt (mom's sister), who may or may not have been married.  If she was married, her husband could have been killed during the revolution when Castro came to power.  Aunt then refugeed to Miami with Gina and any other children she may have already had.  In Miami she met Mr. Calabrese and married him.  They may have had more children together and continued to raise Gina as their own daughter.  Aunt may not have told Gina about her birth mother's story until Gina was an adult.