Episode #110 "Too Much, Too Late"

[Bren10]

In all fairness the Junk Love reveal is a lot more subtle and gets disturbing in retrospect.  This episode is more visceral and in-your-face plotwise, which is what censors mostly look at.  Standards and Practice people are mostly kneejerk reactive and subtlety is often lost on them.  In other words, watching Junk Love with the sound turned off wouldn't be very offensive.  That's essentially how they look at things in those departments.  They have so much stuff to review in the first place something's bound to fall thru the cracks.

[ViceFanMan]

18 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

In all fairness the Junk Love reveal is a lot more subtle and gets disturbing in retrospect.  This episode is more visceral and in-your-face plotwise, which is what censors mostly look at.  Standards and Practice people are mostly kneejerk reactive and subtlety is often lost on them.  In other words, watching Junk Love with the sound turned off wouldn't be very offensive.  That's essentially how they look at things in those departments.  They have so much stuff to review in the first place something's bound to fall thru the cracks.

Possibly true...but in the 80s it would have been much more strict and followed-through with than today. Subtlety might not have always been caught, so-to-speak, with every show back then...but MV was a “hot topic” at the time & in more ways than one. Everything was being looked at under the proverbial microscope—from fashion , music & color with fans...to the violence, drugs & sex with sensors! Watching Too Much, Too Late with the sound off wouldn’t have revealed what Yvonne had agreed to with her daughter either (as back then they couldn’t actually show it)...you’d have to actually watch either episode to know what happened. Sadly nowadays practically anything is allowed & there really isn’t a lot of sensorship anymore. 

Edited September 16, 2018 by ViceFanMan

[Bren10]

Also remember Vice was primetime with a demographic of 18-35 yr olds.  That gives it some leeway.  I got a feeling censors here in the US were  more concerned with gunplay violence and drug use than implied incest, which is not the first thing you would think of when nitpicking on Vice.  Yes MV was a hot topic and so was drugs and guns, especially in Miami where people were literally gunned down in the streets.  That why I think those things were first priority.  The Just Say No campaign was happening  and kids were shot by cops for having toy guns that looked real.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Bren10
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[ViceFanMan]

30 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

Also remember Vice was primetime with a demographic of 18-35 yr olds.  That gives it some leeway.  I got a feeling censors here in the US were  more concerned with gunplay violence and drug use than implied incest, which is not the first thing you would think of when nitpicking on Vice.  Yes MV was a hot topic and so was drugs and guns, especially in Miami where people were literally gunned down in the streets.  That why I think those things were first priority.  The Just Say No campaign was happening  and kids were shot by cops for having toy guns that looked real.

True...but “leeway” back then (even for 18-35yr olds) was way different than now—where pretty much anything is allowed. What was allowed on TV back then, even later evening prime time, was sensored to some degree. Remember, even words like “chump”, “scum”, and “dirtbag” were frequently used to refer to the bad-guys and/or not-so-desirables of whatever episode...instead of the foul cuss words and vulgarity allowed now. The violence was one of the major issues sensors had for MV at the time, definitely...but so was the sex and drug use (and/or “glorification” of all the above). I’ve read before somewhere that sensors back then were up in arms with things in the show—from all of these aspects. Again, I’m just surprised they allowed Junk Love, when they made such a big deal about Too Much, Too Late. 

The first show, in my opinion, to truly test the proverbial boundaries for sexual conduct and scenes was a few years later, with the cable cop series Silk Stalkings. That raised some eyebrows!! But it was cable, and late night (11:00pm). However even it had sensors up in arms at the time.

Edited September 16, 2018 by ViceFanMan

[Bren10]

Yes and Silk Stalkings was also awful.  I had a friend who used to watch that show all the time.  The only thing of note I remember was a post-Tour Of Duty Terence Knox making a guest appearance.  Tour Of Duty being another great underrated show of the 80s.  Something I didn't consider before is Junk Love was aired when the show was at the peak of its powers where Too Much obviously wasn't.  Maybe Mann & co "persuaded" NBC to look the other way on this one?  They did after all let him do whatever he wanted with Crime Story based on MV's success.  Just a thought.

 

[ViceFanMan]

15 hours ago, Bren10 said:

Yes and Silk Stalkings was also awful.  I had a friend who used to watch that show all the time.  The only thing of note I remember was a post-Tour Of Duty Terence Knox making a guest appearance.  Tour Of Duty being another great underrated show of the 80s.  Something I didn't consider before is Junk Love was aired when the show was at the peak of its powers where Too Much obviously wasn't.  Maybe Mann & co "persuaded" NBC to look the other way on this one?  They did after all let him do whatever he wanted with Crime Story based on MV's success.  Just a thought.

 

That’s a good point...you could very well be right, that by the time ‘Too Much’ was filmed the show was on its way out, and Mann had lost his “pull” with NBC. So they refused it. If ‘Junk’ had been filmed around the same time, it could very well have been scrapped as well. 

As for Silk Stalkings...sorry, but I loved that show too, lol! It was my favorite show after MV went off, that also made use of wild color & fashion! In my opinion, SS was the 90s answer to MV. It was just very controversial at the time, because of the sexual explicitness. But it was the highest rated & most popular cable series for several years.  

Edited September 16, 2018 by ViceFanMan

[Bren10]

I respect your opinion.  That's funny when you mention filling your MV void with another show because I can't remember what I did that with myself.  I do remember watching Highlander a lot  because it was back to back with SS.  That is another underrated show in terms of style and substance.

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, Bren10 said:

I respect your opinion.  That's funny when you mention filling your MV void with another show because I can't remember what I did that with myself.  I do remember watching Highlander a lot  because it was back to back with SS.  That is another underrated show in terms of style and substance.

I remember Highlander...it was good, too! USA used to produce some pretty good shows!  

[Matt5]

Watched this last night, very enjoyable 

[Rattlehead]

Excellent episode, quite heavy. Damn it Tubbs, stop going after Val! Well, he did end up listening or so I hope!

[Mr. Vigilante]

I guess this is called "The Lost Episode" because half of the main cast got lost on the way to the studio for the week.  Despite the content, and lack of other main cast, this is a decent episode.  It's just kinda depressing.  Crack mom...abused daughter....burned-out Sonny....relapsed Switek...and ever the romantic Rico, who gets screwed over yet again!  I'll give the guy that played Swain props.  Great actor....I hated his guts!  Not sure why they decided to reuse the footage of Switek betting on the phone from this in "Freefall".

Regarding which episode the line "You gotta any other way of seeing things but cynical?", I actually think it was from "The Great McCarthy" when Crockett accuses Tubbs of getting too close to Vanessa.  Not 100% positive though.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Mr. Vigilante
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[vicegirl85]

On 9/16/2018 at 3:07 AM, Bren10 said:

Something I didn't consider before is Junk Love was aired when the show was at the peak of its powers where Too Much obviously wasn't.  Maybe Mann & co "persuaded" NBC to look the other way on this one?  They did after all let him do whatever he wanted with Crime Story based on MV's success.  Just a thought.

I think that's a really good point, and very likely true.  

However, I also think that the fact that Yvonne was basically selling her child's sexual innocence for drugs in "real time" on the episode would have raised a bigger red flag than the incest committed on Rosella when she was younger that wasn't in our faces during the ep (I can't remember now if her age when it started was spelled out in the show).  Even though the incest was ongoing for her as an adult, I think there is something visceral about a child being blatantly placed in that position by her mom onscreen in the script. 

Both episodes dealt with horrible, sordid situations of child abuse.  One was clearly spelled out in one of the first scenes; the other was more subtle and only revealed at the end.  If Too Much, Too Late had been filmed during Season 2, I wonder if it would have been suppressed. 

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, Mr. Vigilante said:

I guess this is called "The Lost Episode" because half of the main cast got lost on the way to the studio for the week.  Despite the content, and lack of other main cast, this is a decent episode.  It's just kinda depressing.  Crack mom...abused daughter....burned-out Sonny....relapsed Switek...and ever the romantic Rico, who gets screwed over yet again!  I'll give the guy that played Swain props.  Great actor....I hated his guts!  Not sure why they decided to reuse the footage of Switek betting on the phone from this in "Freefall".

Regarding which episode the line "You gotta any other way of seeing things but cynical?", I actually think it was from "The Great McCarthy" when Crockett accuses Tubbs of getting too close to Vanessa.  Not 100% positive though.

Too Much Too Late was the only episode never aired by the network in the show’s original time-slot (because of material considered too “dark” for the time), so that’s why it’s called the “lost” episode...but Junk Love was just as dark in the sexually perverted sense, so I never really understood why this one was so taboo, compared to the other?? 

But, yeah Tubbs never seemed to learn his lesson when it came to Valerie...she was TOXIC, and the second she called or initiated contact he should have hung up and/or run the other way! She was definitely Rico’s femme-fatale.  

Edited February 8, 2020 by ViceFanMan

[ViceFanMan]

34 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

I think that's a really good point, and very likely true.  

However, I also think that the fact that Yvonne was basically selling her child's sexual innocence for drugs in "real time" on the episode would have raised a bigger red flag than the incest committed on Rosella when she was younger that wasn't in our faces during the ep (I can't remember now if her age when it started was spelled out in the show).  Even though the incest was ongoing for her as an adult, I think there is something visceral about a child being blatantly placed in that position by her mom onscreen in the script. 

Both episodes dealt with horrible, sordid situations of child abuse.  One was clearly spelled out in one of the first scenes; the other was more subtle and only revealed at the end.  If Too Much, Too Late had been filmed during Season 2, I wonder if it would have been suppressed. 

This is a very probable and most likely correct explanation of why Junk Love was allowed, and TMTL was not.   But, in the 80s both subjects/episodes would have been considered very controversial and ‘taboo’...I’m just a little surprised that JL was allowed, too. 

Edited February 8, 2020 by ViceFanMan

[Leigh Burne]

6 hours ago, Mr. Vigilante said:

Not sure why they decided to reuse the footage of Switek betting on the phone from this in "Freefall".

Because the sub-plot about Switek's renewed gambling addiction sets up his being in the gangster's pocket in the finale. But when they didn't air this episode, they inserted that scene into "Freefall" to explain why they hold sway over him.

[vicegirl85]

12 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

This is a very probable and most likely correct explanation of why Junk Love was allowed, and TMTL was not.   But, in the 80s both subjects/episodes would have been considered very controversial and ‘taboo’...I’m just a little surprised that JL was allowed, too. 

The only reason I can come up with for that is what Bren10 said earlier in the thread.  The reveal in JL was at the very end, and the buildup to it was subtle and basically misleading--C&T made assumptions, and Rosella wasn't telling them the truth about her relationship with Juan Carlos Silva.  It's only in retrospect, when Rosella says "Good-bye, Daddy," and shoots, that we truly realize the relationship between them, and the scenes with Rosella and Silva take on a new meaning that wasn't attached to them before.   A censor who wasn't paying close attention may have missed the tragedy behind the glitzy music video surface.

I have to say that the 80s were not quite as simple, innocent, and buttoned-down as some here seem to think.  But for a mainstream, network TV cop show, MV did try to push the envelope and I believe JL was an ep that pushed it pretty hard. 

[Robbie C.]

34 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

The only reason I can come up with for that is what Bren10 said earlier in the thread.  The reveal in JL was at the very end, and the buildup to it was subtle and basically misleading--C&T made assumptions, and Rosella wasn't telling them the truth about her relationship with Juan Carlos Silva.  It's only in retrospect, when Rosella says "Good-bye, Daddy," and shoots, that we truly realize the relationship between them, and the scenes with Rosella and Silva take on a new meaning that wasn't attached to them before.   A censor who wasn't paying close attention may have missed the tragedy behind the glitzy music video surface.

I have to say that the 80s were not quite as simple, innocent, and buttoned-down as some here seem to think.  But for a mainstream, network TV cop show, MV did try to push the envelope and I believe JL was an ep that pushed it pretty hard. 

Misunderstanding the '80s is incredibly common. As I've said before, Vice only captured a very small corner of it. But it did push some of the plot envelopes.

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, vicegirl85 said:

The only reason I can come up with for that is what Bren10 said earlier in the thread.  The reveal in JL was at the very end, and the buildup to it was subtle and basically misleading--C&T made assumptions, and Rosella wasn't telling them the truth about her relationship with Juan Carlos Silva.  It's only in retrospect, when Rosella says "Good-bye, Daddy," and shoots, that we truly realize the relationship between them, and the scenes with Rosella and Silva take on a new meaning that wasn't attached to them before.   A censor who wasn't paying close attention may have missed the tragedy behind the glitzy music video surface.

I have to say that the 80s were not quite as simple, innocent, and buttoned-down as some here seem to think.  But for a mainstream, network TV cop show, MV did try to push the envelope and I believe JL was an ep that pushed it pretty hard. 

 

52 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Misunderstanding the '80s is incredibly common. As I've said before, Vice only captured a very small corner of it. But it did push some of the plot envelopes.

It’s not about “misunderstanding” the 80s (I lived them),  or any other decade for that matter...there were problems in the 50s too (although possibly simpler ones than the 80s). Despite what was shown on TV, Leave It To Beaver & Donna Reed Show were “ideals”, but not totally realistic. But, my original point was more about what was allowed on TV...not necessarily what was always going on in reality.

In the 80s they still had a somewhat “strict”, if-you-will, censorship for television—even MV had to say things like ‘scumbag’, ‘dirtbag’, ‘chump’, and only a certain amount of blood or gore could be shown. Sexually perverted topics (such as incest or selling your children for sex in exchange for drugs) were still pretty taboo, and a no-no a lot of crime shows at the time didn’t touch. Even the famous 2-part “Rape & Revenge” episode/s of the cop show Hunter were controversial & caused a stir...because for 1985, it portrayed a somewhat graphic & realistic rape scene (and this was solely involving adults...no kids).

It just seemed odd to me that for the time & what was, or was not, typically allowed on TV back then that “Junk Love” on MV was allowed to slip through, while TMTL was not...but it very likely could’ve been because that TMTL gave you the impression of what was going on at the beginning, whereas JL did not till the end. But, I agree...MV pushed the proverbial envelope sometimes & maybe got some things through that other shows at the time did not.

Personally I feel JL was a much better done episode overall, whereas TMTL was more about Tubbs once again getting caught up in Valerie’s craziness & chaos. 

Edited February 8, 2020 by ViceFanMan

[Robbie C.]

I lived in the '80s, too. I think Vicegirl and I were speaking more generally and not specifically to THIS episode.

[ViceFanMan]

2 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

I lived in the '80s, too. I think Vicegirl and I were speaking more generally and not specifically to THIS episode.

True, but I was speaking “in general” as well (when it came to 80s television, that is). I just pointed out that, in general, with what was or was not allowed on TV back then, that I’m a little surprised that one episode “made it” but the other didn’t. But, perhaps a couple of the possible explanations by other members above are the reason. 

[Robbie C.]

Or maybe they got flack for JL and decided not to repeat that issue. Frankly, it doesn't make much difference.

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, Robbie C. said:

Or maybe they got flack for JL and decided not to repeat that issue. Frankly, it doesn't make much difference.

Possibly...and because the show was already cancelled and they were just trying to contractually finish airing the rest of the episodes, but NBC didn’t like TMTL & it was an “easy” one to drop. Whatever the reasons, it doesn’t necessarily make a huge difference with the show...just a curious aspect that fans have speculated on over the years.

[TylerDurden389]

One of the most unintentionally funny moments from the show that makes me  laugh is the scene in the  "The Dutch Oven" when Sonny is yelling at guy about Trudy's actions while on an assignment. He's throwing out words like 'spit' when he clearly wants to say "s#!+" lol.

[Matt5]

I watched this a few days and really enjoyed it. Lots of scenes filmed at then Ronnie Wood’s place “Woodys on the Beach” at 4th St and Ocean Drive in Miami Beach.(Now closed).

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Matt5

[Jack Gretsky]

Re the subject of the Best Woman for Tubbs, I nominate Maria McDonald - either as Alicia or someone new.  That actress, in both her roles as Alicia and the femme fatale Vanessa, was the hottest and just simply the most awesome romantic partner for Rico. 

Valerie was too self-involved and Angelina (R.I.P.) was never characterized well.