Episode #104 "The Lost Madonna"

[Jack Gretsky]

An offbeat subject - modern art - makes for an interesting episode.  I've always liked Elizabeth Berridge and she is very memorable here. I'm so used to Michael Chiklis playing slobby guys that he seems "wrong" as an art snob - but, of course, he isn't all what he appears to be at first.

It was nice hearing the original Tanita Tikaram recording of "Twist in My Sobriety;" I'm much more familiar with the more driving Liza Minnelli/PSB version from later in 1989. The Eric Clapton song is great as well. 

As always with Vice, there are good visuals - the Kostabi works, a pre-Tarantino car-trunk-cam shot of Chiklis and Dobson, and - is that Lammermoor "painting" simply the light of the projector against the screen?  

Finally, I think we have the winner of the "Lame-o Most Easy for Sonny to Dispatch" with Sigmar. He whiffs his punch at Sonny and the recoil sends him knocking himself out against the far wall!

Edited September 13, 2020 by Jack Gretsky

[ivoryjones]

This ep is still so much fun after decades. Tried it again last week and it's just as cool as always.

Some details regarding the Kostabi's painting transaction in particular puzzle me a bit, though.

1) On the auction, how come Sal Castelli (Ned Eisenberg) wins it for US$100,000 if he bid $110,000 and Joey Scianti (Peter Dobson) bid $100,000?

2) During the party scene, Joey Scianti and Nikos, the Greek buyer, discuss their deal privately in a room. Under pressure, being accused of stalling the Madonna Triptych deal, Joey at a certain point offers the Kostabi painting "almost at cost" to Nikos. Then, Joey says "ugly one thousand dollars" (cost). This doesn't seem to make sense, unless we presume Joey is lying to Nikos. The Sciantis bought the painting for $250,000, and then they "washed" the illegal operation on the auction, so $1,000 (as cost) is way off. Moreover, "one thousand dollars" would mean nothing to either Joey or Nikos, so if Joey wanted to make good, he'd better just give Kostabi's painting for free instead of adding irrelevant one thousand dollars to an over million-dollar art trafficking negotiation (The Madonna Triptych).

Edited November 15, 2020 by ivoryjones

[Matt5]

22 hours ago, ivoryjones said:

This ep is still so much fun after decades. Tried it again last week and it's just as cool as always.

Some details regarding the Kostabi's painting transaction in particular puzzle me a bit, though.

1) On the auction, how come Sal Castelli (Ned Eisenberg) wins it for US$100,000 if he bid $110,000 and Joey Scianti (Peter Dobson) bid $100,000?

2) During the party scene, Joey Scianti and Nikos, the Greek buyer, discuss their deal privately in a room. Under pressure, being accused of stalling the Madonna Triptych deal, Joey at a certain point offers the Kostabi painting "almost at cost" to Nikos. Then, Joey says "ugly one thousand dollars" (cost). This doesn't seem to make sense, unless we presume Joey is lying to Nikos. The Sciantis bought the painting for $250,000, and then they "washed" the illegal operation on the auction, so $1,000 (as cost) is way off. Moreover, "one thousand dollars" would mean nothing to either Joey or Nikos, so if Joey wanted to make good, he'd better just give Kostabi's painting for free instead of adding irrelevant one thousand dollars to an over million-dollar art trafficking negotiation (The Madonna Triptych).

I love this episode (10/10) and had a huge crush on Julia Scianti (Elizabeth Berridge) in this one - oh who am I kidding — still do ha ha .

 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by Matt5

[Mr. Vigilante]

I didn't care for it my first watch, but have come to consider it one of my favorites of season 5.  Good guest stars, and some funny moments.  With the art topic being different than much of Vice's content, this actually worked well.  It worked better than the other obscure episodes (UFO's etc).  Also, Crockett always looked cool, but for some reason he looked really cool in this episode.  I'm still trying to pull it off.

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

On 11/15/2020 at 11:33 AM, Matt5 said:

I love this episode (10/10) and had a huge crush on Julia Scianti (Elizabeth Berridge) in this one - oh who am I kidding — still do ha ha .

 

 

Yeah, I liked Elizabeth Berridge here and also in "The Funhouse" and "Amadeus" (Rock me, Amadeus; sorry, I ALWAYS say that when it comes to that film, since I'm a rather cheesy person:-). I consider her Julia Scianti to be playfully wicked with a smoldering intensity (something's always going on with her eyes; I think her eyes do a lot of talking). Definitely the brains of the Scianti family as well (though I got a kick out of Joey Scianti, especially his death scene: "That's real blood man"". Unlike Morty Price from 'Buddies', I thought that was a funny way to die).

Overall, I think this is a fun episode, and it doesn't take itself too seriously. Another funny moment for me is when Tubbs had about enough of Jeffery Whitehead's snootiness, slams him against the wall and tells him  "I almost got planted in a body bag off I-95,  so SAVE the 'Masterpiece Theater' act!". I did find Whitehead amusing, I thought Michael Chiklis was a funny stuck-up guy.

[pahonu]

23 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

Yeah, I liked Elizabeth Berridge here and also in "The Funhouse" and "Amadeus" (Rock me, Amadeus; sorry, I ALWAYS say that when it comes to that film, since I'm a rather cheesy person:-). I consider her Julia Scianti to be playfully wicked with a smoldering intensity (something's always going on with her eyes; I think her eyes do a lot of talking). Definitely the brains of the Scianti family as well (though I got a kick out of Joey Scianti, especially his death scene: "That's real blood man"". Unlike Morty Price from 'Buddies', I thought that was a funny way to die).

Overall, I think this is a fun episode, and it doesn't take itself too seriously. Another funny moment for me is when Tubbs had about enough of Jeffery Whitehead's snootiness, slams him against the wall and tells him  "I almost got planted in a body bag off I-95,  so SAVE the 'Masterpiece Theater' act!". I did find Whitehead amusing, I thought Michael Chiklis was a funny stuck-up guy.

I always forget she was in Amadeus, but also always amused how she called him “Wolfie”.  She seemed very talented but hasn’t done anything in over a decade. 

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

1 minute ago, pahonu said:

I always forget she was in Amadeus, but also always amused how she called him “Wolfie”.  She seemed very talented but hasn’t done anything in over a decade. 

Ha ha, yeah, "Wolfie" (or "Wolfi"? Not sure): I called the 2009 game "Wolfenstein" ('Ol Wolfie) that for some odd reason, but I guess that was a pet name for Mozart. What I last remember Berridge really performing on for a long time was "The John Larroquette Show" and since then I watched he with her husband Kevin Corrigan in "Grounded for life" (I think she played an artist there, and was a little, well...off-center to say the least), but other than that her output been pretty sporadic.

[ViceFanMan]

Really enjoy this one...one of the rare Season 5 gems!  The plot was interesting, and tying in drugs with stolen art was something they'd never done before!

The action was good and I love how they contrasted intellectual art lovers with "locker room-mentality" gangsters—it was humorous as well as fun to watch! Believe it or not, some stereotypes are actually realistic!  

The guest-stars in this one were superb! Michael Chiklis is a superb actor, and I've seen him in many things over the years--including his series' The Commish (1991-1996), The Shield (2002-2008), and Vegas (2012-2013) His weight seems to fluctuate and so does his hair.  But, I loved his part of Agent Jeffrey Whitehead in this MV episode. Now, do I understand it correctly...was this episode his first acting appearance?

Anyway, I also thought guest star Elizabeth Berridge as Julia Scianti was gorgeous and intelligent! She kind of captivated me and I wish she'd of had a more important role.  But, like most of the "hot" girls on MV...they usually seem to turn out to be femme fatales.  

Peter Dobson as Joey Scianti was hilarious and a textbook case for the stereotypical, spaghetti-for-brains Italian gangster!  Actor Ned Eisenberg was, as usual, awesome as Sal Castelli...but he'll always be Charlie Glide to me!  Eisenberg guest-starred many times on MV...probably his most famous being Charlie Glide in Season 2’s “Yankee Dollar”.

The music was also superb in this one...the most captivating song being She's Waiting by Eric Clapton! I liked the colors and fashion in this one too...as well as the props used for the Madonna--it actually was a beautiful piece of art (at least for a TV episode)!  

I Loved the ending with Chiklis (Whitehead) at the cruise ship docking port—he turned out to be pretty deadly, despite being an art snob! The old lady get-up, complete with Mumu, was hilarious!  

Overall I really love this one and it's another one I look forward to when going through Season 5...which for that season overall is a rarity. I originally gave this a 9...still do!

Edited August 29, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

On 8/29/2021 at 7:06 PM, ViceFanMan said:

Really enjoy this one...one of the rare Season 5 gems!  The plot was interesting, and tying in drugs with stolen art was something they'd never done before!

The action was good and I love how they contrasted intellectual art lovers with "locker room-mentality" gangsters—it was humorous as well as fun to watch! Believe it or not, some stereotypes are actually realistic!  

The guest-stars in this one were superb! Michael Chiklis is a superb actor, and I've seen him in many things over the years--including his series' The Commish (1991-1996), The Shield (2002-2008), and Vegas (2012-2013) His weight seems to fluctuate and so does his hair.  But, I loved his part of Agent Jeffrey Whitehead in this MV episode. Now, do I understand it correctly...was this episode his first acting appearance?

Anyway, I also thought guest star Elizabeth Berridge as Julia Scianti was gorgeous and intelligent! She kind of captivated me and I wish she'd of had a more important role.  But, like most of the "hot" girls on MV...they usually seem to turn out to be femme fatales.  

Peter Dobson as Joey Scianti was hilarious and a textbook case for the stereotypical, spaghetti-for-brains Italian gangster!  Actor Ned Eisenberg was, as usual, awesome as Sal Castelli...but he'll always be Charlie Glide to me!  Eisenberg guest-starred many times on MV...probably his most famous being Charlie Glide in Season 2’s “Yankee Dollar”.

The music was also superb in this one...the most captivating song being She's Waiting by Eric Clapton! I liked the colors and fashion in this one too...as well as the props used for the Madonna--it actually was a beautiful piece of art (at least for a TV episode)!  

I Loved the ending with Chiklis (Whitehead) at the cruise ship docking port—he turned out to be pretty deadly, despite being an art snob! The old lady get-up, complete with Mumu, was hilarious!  

Overall I really love this one and it's another one I look forward to when going through Season 5...which for that season overall is a rarity. I originally gave this a 9...still do!

Yeah, sounds like great stuff...and I believe that it is! Actually, today I decided to finally place Eric Clapton's "She's Waiting" on a YouTube playlist (#21).

Ha ha, Switek and his "Lonely Guy Security" line. There's a whole Vice community, so Switek will never be lonely, as he's always being watched.

Another Ned Eisenberg character here, and I can't get enough of that (Another note: I'm not sure if Eisenberg as Librizzi w/ beard gives him the same powers I think Tubbs had with his beard; then again, he probably watched Season 4 and got the beard idea from that. His Sal Castelli here in this episode, he learned not to mess with Prof Tubbs!).

Elizabeth Berridge though, she went from "The Funhouse" to The Big House (or as Hannibal Smith said in "The A-Team", "The house of many doors"). She can take comfort that Watch Commander Fox was taken out by his own prisoners in 'Walk-Alone', and maybe Sigmar will stick around (things were going so well for Sigmar, until he hit a wall. Hey Sigmar, she's waiting!).

[Jack Gretsky]

On 9/12/2020 at 9:38 PM, Jack Gretsky said:

An offbeat subject - modern art - makes for an interesting episode.  I've always liked Elizabeth Berridge and she is very memorable here. I'm so used to Michael Chiklis playing slobby guys that he seems "wrong" as an art snob - but, of course, he isn't all what he appears to be at first.

It was nice hearing the original Tanita Tikaram recording of "Twist in My Sobriety;" I'm much more familiar with the more driving Liza Minnelli/PSB version from later in 1989. The Eric Clapton song is great as well. 

As always with Vice, there are good visuals - the Kostabi works, a pre-Tarantino car-trunk-cam shot of Chiklis and Dobson, and - is that Lammermoor "painting" simply the light of the projector against the screen?  

Finally, I think we have the winner of the "Lame-o Most Easy for Sonny to Dispatch" with Sigmar. He whiffs his punch at Sonny and the recoil sends him knocking himself out against the far wall!

One of my favorites of S5.  What I said above holds a year on - and there are other good touches throughout.  Stanley Costa's bandaged nose (I didn't catch if they explained it or not; I just like that it was simply there), the two cats who you just know are going to mess up the arrest, Joey Scianti's constant "son of a..."'s.  Say the word, Joey!  It's "gun," right?  (In general, Peter Dobson's performance with his asides to himself is hilarious. I cracked up at his saying "common sore" instead of "connoisseur.")  And, yeah, Chiklis is really uncomfortable playing a snob, but, of course, his character is play-acting himself. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Jack Gretsky

[Augusta]

I saw this on a televised channel a few weeks ago here in the Northeast US.  My only time since 1990 or so.  Can't be disputed, it's a solid job.  (and Season 5 really needed episodes like this just to keep from outright embarrassment).  No nonsense from anyone in this cast, except the "fun Miami Vice Nonsense" that we expect to see in a good Vice episode. 

So again, to my disappointment, WAS THE PRODUCTION TEAM ASLEEP or smoking Miami coke?  When you get a good episode like this, why didn't they grab THAT director, and THAT writer, and retain them to do a few more episodes for you?  What's their names, Chip Chalmers, Bob Goethals.... how come we never hear about these guys ever again on Vice?  
Come on, it's the '80s... it's Hollywood excess,... and a hip name like "chip chalmers" doesn't just make you get all warm and excited inside?  
We need a new catering truck.  What do you think, "Chip"?
This episode script is running flat.  Let's get Chip on it!
Mrs, Hooper is a tough investor to convince... I know, introduce her to....Chip...Charmers. .....
If I am to trust what the internet says about him, this director Chip was in the Vice staff for quite a while, and went on to be famous doing Star Trek series stuff... but they only used him ONCE as actual director in Vice? 

That cuts it.  Crockett, quick, give me your gun!  I've had it with Dick Wolf's team. 

[RedDragon86]

21 hours ago, Augusta said:

I saw this on a televised channel a few weeks ago here in the Northeast US.  My only time since 1990 or so.  Can't be disputed, it's a solid job.  (and Season 5 really needed episodes like this just to keep from outright embarrassment).  No nonsense from anyone in this cast, except the "fun Miami Vice Nonsense" that we expect to see in a good Vice episode. 

So again, to my disappointment, WAS THE PRODUCTION TEAM ASLEEP or smoking Miami coke?  When you get a good episode like this, why didn't they grab THAT director, and THAT writer, and retain them to do a few more episodes for you?  What's their names, Chip Chalmers, Bob Goethals.... how come we never hear about these guys ever again on Vice?  
Come on, it's the '80s... it's Hollywood excess,... and a hip name like "chip chalmers" doesn't just make you get all warm and excited inside?  
We need a new catering truck.  What do you think, "Chip"?
This episode script is running flat.  Let's get Chip on it!
Mrs, Hooper is a tough investor to convince... I know, introduce her to....Chip...Charmers. .....
If I am to trust what the internet says about him, this director Chip was in the Vice staff for quite a while, and went on to be famous doing Star Trek series stuff... but they only used him ONCE as actual director in Vice? 

That cuts it.  Crockett, quick, give me your gun!  I've had it with Dick Wolf's team. 

NBC blundered big time hiring Wolf.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by RedDragon86

[pahonu]

A similar discussion has been had elsewhere, but I think it’s important to remember that writing for weekly drama series was done differently then versus today.  There were over 80 writers involved in the five seasons of MV, and if you remove the script supervisor/story editors credits, there are just 5 writers who were involved with more than 5 episodes.  Nearly half of that 80+ had just one credit, and most of the rest just 2 or 3.  This was actually pretty typical in the past.  

With 22 episodes expected, and no hiatuses, it was a grind to produce a series like this.  There wasn’t a group of core writers who planned out the season’s story arc as is common today.  Of course, few dramatic series produce 22 episodes a season any more either.  Scripts had to be accepted from outside writers to keep pace with network requirements.  The writer numbers above clearly show this.  It was typical for producers to have no idea what later season episodes would be about as early episodes were filmed.  The scripts hadn’t been read or accepted yet.  When the season began filming in the summer, they might have had 8-10 scripts in the works.  As the season went on this inevitably diminished, and many times the final scripts were barely ready for filming the last episodes.  That has all changed today.

Comedy writing is an entirely different process.

A discussion about the much smaller overall creative role of television directors in that era versus film directors massive role has also occurred somewhere on the forum.  TV directors are essentially handed a script with established characters and stories and are basically responsible for the process of planning the shots and making sure they are completed properly.  They often defer to a regular director of photography if a show has a distinct look, such as Vice.  The script supervisor/story editor has already gone through it for continuity, and if there are dialogue questions, the regular actors are more informed about their characters.  There are certainly creative decisions about the photography made, but no where near the level of overall decision making as a film director would have.

[Augusta]

Wow. I've just received a nice education into writing for tv.  What an evolution.  It's time for my Star Wars comparison again.  When Lucas and his team (hey, let's be real, NO person does a grand achievement like '77 Star Wars on his own---it's a body of great people with him),... when they do a great innovation like Star Wars, it opens doors to technical changes and improvements to the profession in so many ways.  But it's just an open door, and Lucas was right to HOLD ONTO dictatorship control of this thing... or soon afterward so many of those doors will be closed or simply not walked through.  Hollywood is THAT blind.
I understand Mann and Yerkovich and the gang are innovation-minded, so they always have a "new" project in mind that they are willing to drop their current achievements to pursue.  But darn it, Vice was SOOO innovative and new, it really needed them to keep nurturing it, and arguing with the stodgy-minded moguls, and refusing the "traditions" that simply won't work for this new fantastic series.
Audio technology for tv and sound mixing for tv programs were never the same again, after Miami Vice.  Can you imagine how cool it would have been if Miami Vice demanded scripts and episodes be written in a different and more efficient structure,... and eventually cause writers to get paid in newer better ways?  
Maybe naive of me?  Yeah.  But when you think about it, Lucas' people used their Star Wars clout to create recording processes, camera devices, educational time capsule programs, schools and facilities, all that have nothing to do with a simple sci-fi fantasy film. The longer Miami Vice stayed safely under the wing of the original creative people, the longer it would have been lucrative, and Hollywood "old ways" of doing things would have been rebuilt into way better professions.  

I know...LOL, it sounds a lot like Camelot.  Oh well.

[pahonu]

15 minutes ago, Augusta said:

Wow. I've just received a nice education into writing for tv.  What an evolution.  It's time for my Star Wars comparison again.  When Lucas and his team (hey, let's be real, NO person does a grand achievement like '77 Star Wars on his own---it's a body of great people with him),... when they do a great innovation like Star Wars, it opens doors to technical changes and improvements to the profession in so many ways.  But it's just an open door, and Lucas was right to HOLD ONTO dictatorship control of this thing... or soon afterward so many of those doors will be closed or simply not walked through.  Hollywood is THAT blind.
I understand Mann and Yerkovich and the gang are innovation-minded, so they always have a "new" project in mind that they are willing to drop their current achievements to pursue.  But darn it, Vice was SOOO innovative and new, it really needed them to keep nurturing it, and arguing with the stodgy-minded moguls, and refusing the "traditions" that simply won't work for this new fantastic series.
Audio technology for tv and sound mixing for tv programs were never the same again, after Miami Vice.  Can you imagine how cool it would have been if Miami Vice demanded scripts and episodes be written in a different and more efficient structure,... and eventually cause writers to get paid in newer better ways?  
Maybe naive of me?  Yeah.  But when you think about it, Lucas' people used their Star Wars clout to create recording processes, camera devices, educational time capsule programs, schools and facilities, all that have nothing to do with a simple sci-fi fantasy film. The longer Miami Vice stayed safely under the wing of the original creative people, the longer it would have been lucrative, and Hollywood "old ways" of doing things would have been rebuilt into way better professions.  

I know...LOL, it sounds a lot like Camelot.  Oh well.

In many ways scripted dramatic TV has moved much closer to film in the last decade or two.  That has lead to higher quality writing and what many critics now refer to as the “second golden age” of television.  It hasn’t much happened on network television, because their requirements haven’t changed much.  It has really blossomed on cable networks and now streaming services that provide original content.  Many of these series are quite limited in length as a result, perhaps 10 episodes per season or less sometimes.

The comparison to Star Wars is perhaps less effective because it is a film.  A typical Hollywood film may have a total development time of 3 years or more.  Preproduction alone can sometimes be that long.  Production itself might film for 30 to 40 days, and postproduction and marketing can last another year.  It is often the vision of an auteur director who guides it to fruition, with artistic contributions from many others, obviously.  At the end of all that they have 120 minutes of film.

Miami Vice and other dramas of its era were asked to produce 22 small 48 minute movies in about 10 months.  A typical preproduction schedule, including script editing, casting, location scouting, etc… might be 6-8 weeks or less.  Filming was typically 7 days and postproduction, including editing, scoring, and distribution just 2-3 weeks, sometimes less.  This is why there were so many different directors and writers.  It was truly an assembly line of overlapping mini-films, but it all starts with the script.

This is my personal opinion, but I don’t think it’s humanly possible to have the level of quality that is expected by many today in a the network 22 episode series format.  It can’t be done.  This explains why every season had lower quality episodes, and as time went on, significantly lower quality… Missing Hours, ahem. 
 

On a side note, as I have shared in other threads, I worked for a few years in television production here in the LA area in the early 90’s.  The old system was still in place then.  Things have definitely changed and in many ways for the better, but judging an old series by new standards doesn’t seem quite fair, I think.  It’s certainly okay to dream about what might have been though.  

[Miami Beau]

8 hours ago, Augusta said:

I saw this on a televised channel a few weeks ago here in the Northeast US.  My only time since 1990 or so.  Can't be disputed, it's a solid job.  (and Season 5 really needed episodes like this just to keep from outright embarrassment).  No nonsense from anyone in this cast, except the "fun Miami Vice Nonsense" that we expect to see in a good Vice episode. 

So again, to my disappointment, WAS THE PRODUCTION TEAM ASLEEP or smoking Miami coke?  When you get a good episode like this, why didn't they grab THAT director, and THAT writer, and retain them to do a few more episodes for you?  What's their names, Chip Chalmers, Bob Goethals.... how come we never hear about these guys ever again on Vice?  
Come on, it's the '80s... it's Hollywood excess,... and a hip name like "chip chalmers" doesn't just make you get all warm and excited inside?  
We need a new catering truck.  What do you think, "Chip"?
This episode script is running flat.  Let's get Chip on it!
Mrs, Hooper is a tough investor to convince... I know, introduce her to....Chip...Charmers. .....
If I am to trust what the internet says about him, this director Chip was in the Vice staff for quite a while, and went on to be famous doing Star Trek series stuff... but they only used him ONCE as actual director in Vice? 

That cuts it.  Crockett, quick, give me your gun!  I've had it with Dick Wolf's team. 

Yes Chip Chalmers was an assistant director working on Vice since Season 4 I believe. From what I heard, Don Johnson pushed for Chalmers to get the full director role for “The Lost Madonna”. Chalmers wasn’t first choice. Overall great job. This episode is one of the rarer episodes is Season 5 that retains the more upbeat Season 2 vibe. The fact they recast Ned Eisenberg again, and didn’t bother to change his appearance from his Charlie Glide role, very poor by producers. 

[ViceFanMan]

4 hours ago, pahonu said:

In many ways scripted dramatic TV has moved much closer to film in the last decade or two.  That has lead to higher quality writing and what many critics now refer to as the “second golden age” of television.  It hasn’t much happened on network television, because their requirements haven’t changed much.  It has really blossomed on cable networks and now streaming services that provide original content.  Many of these series are quite limited in length as a result, perhaps 10 episodes per season or less sometimes.

The comparison to Star Wars is perhaps less effective because it is a film.  A typical Hollywood film may have a total development time of 3 years or more.  Preproduction alone can sometimes be that long.  Production itself might film for 30 to 40 days, and postproduction and marketing can last another year.  It is often the vision of an auteur director who guides it to fruition, with artistic contributions from many others, obviously.  At the end of all that they have 120 minutes of film.

Miami Vice and other dramas of its era were asked to produce 22 small 48 minute movies in about 10 months.  A typical preproduction schedule, including script editing, casting, location scouting, etc… might be 6-8 weeks or less.  Filming was typically 7 days and postproduction, including editing, scoring, and distribution just 2-3 weeks, sometimes less.  This is why there were so many different directors and writers.  It was truly an assembly line of overlapping mini-films, but it all starts with the script.

This is my personal opinion, but I don’t think it’s humanly possible to have the level of quality that is expected by many today in a the network 22 episode series format.  It can’t be done.  This explains why every season had lower quality episodes, and as time went on, significantly lower quality… Missing Hours, ahem. 
 

On a side note, as I have shared in other threads, I worked for a few years in television production here in the LA area in the early 90’s.  The old system was still in place then.  Things have definitely changed and in many ways for the better, but judging an old series by new standards doesn’t seem quite fair, I think.  It’s certainly okay to dream about what might have been though.  

I understand there may have been a difference in “systems” compared to now...as even original network shows have had very high quality & ratings in the past 15-20 years (referring to shows such as CSI & Criminal Minds). 

However, other shows in the 80s & 90s had good quality episodes/plots, stayed true to the characters & backstories with them, and therefore lasted longer than MV. 

Regardless of the same writers, or different writers, or “style-system” of production...there was/is still no excuse for a lot of the ridiculous & terrible episodes during the last couple seasons of MV.

Its not really “dreaming” about what might have been...it’s acknowledging and discussing what could have & should have been done. 

[pahonu]

5 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I understand there may have been a difference in “systems” compared to now...as even original network shows have had very high quality & ratings in the past 15-20 years (referring to shows such as CSI & Criminal Minds). 

However, other shows in the 80s & 90s had good quality episodes/plots, stayed true to the characters & backstories with them, and therefore lasted longer than MV. 

Regardless of the same writers, or different writers, or “style-system” of production...there was/is still no excuse for a lot of the ridiculous & terrible episodes during the last couple seasons of MV.

Its not really “dreaming” about what might have been...it’s acknowledging and discussing what could have & should have been done. 

I would argue that comparing MV to CSI, Criminal Minds, or Law & Order, to bring in Dick Wolf, is not a great comparison.  These are all highly regarded, long-running crime dramas, but MV and many detective series of its time were really dramatic action series.  There was an expectation by the audience and networks for gun fights, car chases (or boat), and generally more action and adventure than say CSI.  Those elements put tremendous strain on production timeframes and budgets compared to more dialogue driven shows.  The action adventure type shows typically put much more effort into those elements than the script’s dialogue or storyline.  I would wager that a script or two might even have been selected for its action or adventure possibilities ahead of a more dramatic storyline or better dialogue in another script.

[ViceFanMan]

5 minutes ago, pahonu said:

I would argue that comparing MV to CSI, Criminal Minds, or Law & Order, to bring in Dick Wolf, is not a great comparison.  These are all highly regarded, long-running crime dramas, but MV and many detective series of its time were really dramatic action series.  There was an expectation by the audience and networks for gun fights, car chases (or boat), and generally more action and adventure than say CSI.  Those elements put tremendous strain on production timeframes and budgets compared to more dialogue driven shows.  The action adventure type shows typically put much more effort into those elements than the script’s dialogue or storyline.  I would wager that a script or two might even have been selected for its action or adventure possibilities ahead of a more dramatic storyline or better dialogue in another script.

I agree that Dick Wolf didn’t handle things well with MV...but he still could have & should have done way better. There’s no excuse for several episodes in Seasons 4&5 of MV, that he should have never allowed to be written, let alone made.

 I understand that MV was more action drama, and the style of crime dramas today is somewhat different. But, still trying to stay true to characters that have already been established, and creating good plots/episodes to keep fans watching is key to any show at any time.

[RedDragon86]

10 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

I agree that Dick Wolf didn’t handle things well with MV...but he still could have & should have done way better. There’s no excuse for several episodes in Seasons 4&5 of MV, that he should have never allowed to be written, let alone made.

 I understand that MV was more action drama, and the style of crime dramas today is somewhat different. But, still trying to stay true to characters that have already been established, and creating good plots/episodes to keep fans watching is key to any show at any time.

Dick Wolf was no good at all, sorry but he really wasn't.

Edited December 28, 2021 by RedDragon86
Wrong choice of word.

[ViceFanMan]

4 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

Dick Wolf was cancer to MV, sorry but he really was.

He definitely didn’t help it. It’s almost like he didn’t really know what he was doing at the time...and everything just seemed very disjointed, disorganized, chaotic, and bizarre. 

[RedDragon86]

18 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

He definitely didn’t help it. It’s almost like he didn’t really know what he was doing at the time...and everything just seemed very disjointed, disorganized, chaotic, and bizarre. 

He only joined up to beef up his CV. 

Then Don Johnson got him booted out and did that monotonous law crap.

[pahonu]

I agree that Dick Wolf didn’t do the show justice.  He inherited the series rather than created it, and made some significant changes that proved unpopular.  He did, however, initiate a major story arc with the Crockett/Burnett episodes, though didn’t finish them.  This was very unusual in the era, but would become the norm later on.  Returning characters and storylines existed, as we see in the first couple of seasons, but multi episode story arcs were just not seen then.

I also agree that MV had more late season duds than any successful series should have had.  Many other popular series of the time didn’t see such spectacular fails, even if they were in serious decline.  Then there are those that somehow never seemed to have jumped the shark, as they say.  

Edited December 28, 2021 by pahonu

[pahonu]

5 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

He only joined up to beef up his CV. 

Then Don Johnson got him booted out and did that monotonous law crap.

MV was very near the beginning of his career so he was green.  The first few seasons of Law & Order were fantastic, I feel.  I watched them at the time, including a multi episode story about the mob, which was almost unheard of then… the multi episode part, not the mob content.  He really helped bring the long story arc to television that we see everywhere today.  MV was from an earlier era and may not have benefited from that.  It’s sometimes hard to remember how different Law & Order was at the time.  It’s become commonplace today.

[ViceFanMan]

17 minutes ago, pahonu said:

I agree that Dick Wolf didn’t do the show justice.  He inherited the series rather than created it, and made some significant changes that proved unpopular.  He did, however, produce a major story arc with the Crockett/Burnett episodes.  This was very unusual in the era, but would become the norm later on.  Returning characters and storylines existed, as we see in the first couple of seasons, but multi episode story arcs were just not seen then.

I also agree that MV had more late season duds than any successful series should have had.  Many other popular series of the time didn’t see such spectacular fails, even if they were in serious decline.  Then there are those that somehow never seemed to have jumped the shark, as they say.  

I would say that the wild, over-the-top ridiculous Burnett-saga episodes were not the norm then or now...not like that!  The ratings were flailing & the network was desperate to try & save the show...so they tried whacked-out shock value (such as the Burnett episodes) to try and “shock” fans back into watching. It failed. 

I agree that elongated-out (past 1-2 episodes) character or story arcs were not done as often or as in-depth as they are nowadays...but some shows did have them at the time. Magnum is one example.

But, when Wolf took over for MV, previous storylines and/or character aspects were either abandoned or ignored, and episode plots were many times ridiculous, or terrible, or bizarre. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by ViceFanMan