Too much, too late

[Tom]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Matt5:

Well there have been developments and changes since 1989 but I would say yes after being inside.

 

Thanks! I take your word. 
I just have this photo from the hallway and there are significant differences. But on the other hand I don’t believe they used a completely new location for this single scene.

[Tom]

I just found a few great pics from the Savoy (Hotel lobby as drug den and former Woody´s part where C&T&Val were seated in front) complementing @Matt5s pic. There is no clear evidence that this was the interior bar in TMTL but there are some layout similarities with the round shaped bar.

https://www.oyster.com/miami/hotels/the-savoy-hotel/photos/

What has been always a mystery to me: why are there no vintage pics of Woody´s interior anywhere on the internet although it was such a legendary place with all music celebrities giving concerts there, from Ray Charles to the Neville Brothers? 

I also found the lady who did the interior design on Woody´s, Barbara Hulanicki. She has tons of pics on her website but none from Woodys....

http://www.barbarahulanickidesign.com/category/interior-design/

P.S. Joseph Remy, a 5 year crew member on Miami Vice was also musician and played in Woody´s (last picture). He has one picture on his website but there is hardly anything to be seen of the interior.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Tom

[Tom]

YVONNE´s HOUSE, EXTERIOR (interior was a studio set)

Additional clues for this mystery location (we have not found it anywhere in Coconut Grove where we suspected it to be) are the main powerline running behind the house (i.e. the street in front of the house is running north-south, as these powerlines are usually running north-south.

Also, the small boat that we see on the side of the house when Swayne splits, let´s me believe there´s gotta be water nearby. Who would have a boat in his yard without any possibility to use it?

[Tom]

I have switched to "emergency plan" for finding Yvonne´s house, i.e. scanning whole Miami on historic aerials since all our primary suspect areas, esp. Coconut Grove have yielded nothing.

The best suspect so far was 10618 NE 10th Place close to studio with fitting site house shape and tree, location at N/S street (powerlines!) and access for Tubbs car from the garden and the correct shape of the vis a vis house, but the location of the vis a vis house is wrong and as both houses still stand today we clearly see that it is not the place. Also the distance of the houses from the street does not match.

[C Glide]

Determination will pay off.

 

[Tom]

THE UNKNOWN BAR: THE SAVOY? (Woody´s on the beach property)

Call me crazy, but the name of the unknown bar is clearly on the napkins. I had to flip it upside down in order to read it. And for my old eyes, upon magnifying it clearly -also on the Koch BluRays - looks like a 5 letter word, starting with a big curved "S" and ending with an also curved "y" with a long end. Makes "Savoy". That was not only the name of the hotel next door under heavy construction at the time of filming, used as the crack house location, but also the name of the whole property. The Savoy and the former Arlington Hotel were consolidated to the Savoy and I found proof that in Sept/Oct 1988 the whole property of former Arlington=Woody´s (was opened in late 87) and the Savoy has been consolidated by the Savoy Group, with Ron Wood´s manager in a main position. See below.

So, all in all, I would say we have another 90% found location with the Savoy, although it is not quite clear to me where exactly that bar was within the property. In the episode it seems that outside the long window on the left (the one with the 4 parallel stripes) there is an open field, no close property. That would direct us to the south side of the building near the place where C+T+Valerie sat. It was always strange to me anyway that they only used the Woody´s location for the table sitting scene and the exterior when Tubbs and Valerie left with the Caddy. The bar interior did not look like the Mayfair where so much else was filmed.

This new evidence also circles back to @Matt5´s idea that that bar looks similar to the Savoy (he was there in person to take pictures, I was not) and that the hallway that Tubbs walked along inside the bar was the same hallway as he posted earlier in this thread. Another indication that he was right is the floor. Near Crockett we see a typical Art Deco floor pattern and the former Arlington (building that became the Woody´s on the beach) was originally in fact an Classic revival Art Deco building designed by Albert Anis in the late 30s. The floor it has today (as on Matt´s pics) is completely different, so they probably have removed/remodelled it completely as it was not protected.

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Tom

[Tom]

Valerie´s room is clearly a set. Not only that the exterior was Woody´s that looked completely different inside. 

The apartment is too vicey, no way that there is a real apartment like that. And, they made a unique mistake. In one scene, they overlooked that the end of the studio wall was in plain sight. See below. No way that someone does a real apartment that sophisticated in white and yellow and then "forgets" to paint a square shaped part of wall in white. This is clearly a hole in the wall (the magnification shows that a part of the white wall is missing or cut out, as we can see the cutting edge) or the end of a studio wall.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Tom

[Tom]

Am 8.9.2021 um 17:28 schrieb Tom:

Valerie´s room is clearly a set. Not only that the exterior was Woody´s that looked completely different inside. 

The apartment is too vicey, no way that there is a real apartment like that. And, they made a unique mistake. In one scene, they overlooked that the end of the studio wall was in plain sight. See below. No way that someone does a real apartment that sophisticated in white and yellow and then "forgets" to paint a square shaped part of wall in white. This is clearly a hole in the wall (the magnification shows that a part of the white wall is missing or cut out, as we can see the cutting edge) or the end of a studio wall.

 

 

very similar studio wall elements used in Asian Cut. See below.

[Matt5]

On 9/8/2021 at 9:46 AM, Tom said:

THE UNKNOWN BAR: THE SAVOY? (Woody´s on the beach property)

Call me crazy, but the name of the unknown bar is clearly on the napkins. I had to flip it upside down in order to read it. And for my old eyes, upon magnifying it clearly -also on the Koch BluRays - looks like a 5 letter word, starting with a big curved "S" and ending with an also curved "y" with a long end. Makes "Savoy". That was not only the name of the hotel next door under heavy construction at the time of filming, used as the crack house location, but also the name of the whole property. The Savoy and the former Arlington Hotel were consolidated to the Savoy and I found proof that in Sept/Oct 1988 the whole property of former Arlington=Woody´s (was opened in late 87) and the Savoy has been consolidated by the Savoy Group, with Ron Wood´s manager in a main position. See below.

So, all in all, I would say we have another 90% found location with the Savoy, although it is not quite clear to me where exactly that bar was within the property. In the episode it seems that outside the long window on the left (the one with the 4 parallel stripes) there is an open field, no close property. That would direct us to the south side of the building near the place where C+T+Valerie sat. It was always strange to me anyway that they only used the Woody´s location for the table sitting scene and the exterior when Tubbs and Valerie left with the Caddy. The bar interior did not look like the Mayfair where so much else was filmed.

This new evidence also circles back to @Matt5´s idea that that bar looks similar to the Savoy (he was there in person to take pictures, I was not) and that the hallway that Tubbs walked along inside the bar was the same hallway as he posted earlier in this thread. Another indication that he was right is the floor. Near Crockett we see a typical Art Deco floor pattern and the former Arlington (building that became the Woody´s on the beach) was originally in fact an Classic revival Art Deco building designed by Albert Anis in the late 30s. The floor it has today (as on Matt´s pics) is completely different, so they probably have removed/remodelled it completely as it was not protected.

 

Thankyou Tom. After being inside here a few times over the years I believe the front bar is the large bar we see in “Baseballs of Death” and the bar we see in “Too Much Too Late” was in the middle to the back of the property.

The corridor we see Tubbs walk down is still there but reconstructed. (See below from 2014).
The Savoy today seems to be a series of 4 large rooms in the main building - 2 of which are conference style rooms. Sadly it was empty and the building not being used.

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Matt5

[Tom]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Matt5:

Thankyou Tom. After being inside here a few times over the years I believe the front bar is the large bar we see in “Baseballs of Death” and the bar we see in “Too Much Too Late” was in the middle to the back of the property.

The corridor we see Tubbs walked down is still there but reconstructed. 
The Savoy today seems to be a series of 4 large rooms in the main building - 2 of which are conference style rooms. Sadly it was empty and the building not being used.

 

Thanks Matt! Of course I believe your judgment and the Savoy hint I just found on the napkin is the nail to the coffin, so to speak. I just have problems to imagine where that bar was just based on your description. If I understood correctly, the picture above is the reconstructed hallway that Tubbs used. This means: to the left of it is the southside of the building, i.e. where the big pool is/was and where C&T&Val sat down. The bar where Crockett&Izzy were is to the right of the hallway then, ie. further to the inner part of the building...?

 

[Matt5]

5 minutes ago, Tom said:

Thanks Matt! Of course I believe your judgment and the Savoy hint I just found on the napkin is the nail to the coffin, so to speak. I just have problems to imagine where that bar was just based on your description. If I understood correctly, the picture above is the reconstructed hallway that Tubbs used. This means: to the left of it is the southside of the building, i.e. where the big pool is/was and where C&T&Val sat down. The bar where Crockett&Izzy were is to the right of the hallway then, ie. further to the inner part of the building...?

 

Yes that’s what I felt as I was in the building.

The doors in my picture to the left leads you to the outer terrace which we see behind Crockett and Tubbs having a drink with Val in “Too Much Too Late”.

The larger bar area we see in “Baseballs of Death” was a large room at the front of the property facing Ocean Drive. I believe we also see this room in “Hard Knocks”.

The bar , to the right of the hallway, we see in “Too Much Too Late” certainly has been divided into 2 or 3 smaller rooms one being a small library lounge. We only see this room in “TMTL”.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Matt5

[Tom]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Matt5:

Yes that’s what I felt as I was in the building.

The doors in my picture to the left leads you to the outer terrace which we see behind Crockett and Tubbs having a drink with Val in “Too Much Too Late”.

The larger bar area we see in “Baseballs of Death” was a large room at the front of the property facing Ocean Drive. I believe we also see this room in “Hard Knocks”.

The bar , to the right of the hallway, we see in “Too Much Too Late” certainly has been divided into 2 or 3 smaller rooms one being a small library lounge. 

OK, this means that the door behind Tubbs in the hallway (also on your picture in the middle of the background) is facing the front on Ocean Drive and the big bar in BOD and HK was behind this door or at least right behind it in the room facing Ocean Drive.

And this also means that we have started this episode with many unknown locations and now only have 1 single unknown left: Yvonnes house exterior that we suspected in the Grove near Virrick Park, but ain´t there. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Tom

[Matt5]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

OK, this means that the door behind Tubbs in the hallway (also on your picture in the middle of the background) is facing the front on Ocean Drive and the big bar in BOD and HK was behind this door or at least right behind it in the room facing Ocean Drive.

Yes the fire exit behind Tubbs and the door leads you to Ocean Drive and the big bar in BOD and HK was just to the right of that door. I’m sure that the fire exit is the same as it was in 2014 and 1989.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Matt5

[Tom]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Matt5:

Yes the fire exit behind Tubbs and the door leads you to Ocean Drive and the big bar in BOD and HK was just to the right of that door.

Perfect! Then we have reduced the 5 unknown locations in this ep a few months ago (the restaurant, Swayne´s loft, Val´s apartment, the bar, Yvonne´s apartment interior) in a great teamwork down to one. Valerie´s house exterior in the teaser!

[Tom]

Am 30.1.2021 um 14:09 schrieb Tom:

YVONNE´s HOUSE, EXTERIOR (interior was a studio set)

Additional clues for this mystery location (we have not found it anywhere in Coconut Grove where we suspected it to be) are the main powerline running behind the house (i.e. the street in front of the house is running north-south, as these powerlines are usually running north-south.

Also, the small boat that we see on the side of the house when Swayne splits, let´s me believe there´s gotta be water nearby. Who would have a boat in his yard without any possibility to use it?

not THE house, but the first false match with similar roof type ("flat" roof plus two-part gable roof).

2532 Tequesta Lane, Coconut Grove

 

[Matt5]

Mayfair Shops (in the 1980s) from Mary St and Grand Ave in Coconut Grove. We see another entrance of the shops behind the Mayfair Hotel in this episode from Rice St and Florida Ave.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Matt5

[Tom]

Here is a picture of the old Arlington Hotel, a classic Art Deco Revival designed by Albert Anis in the late 1930s at 455 Ocean Drive, that became later the home of Woody´s on the Beach and the Savoy. 

[Tom]

At 99% probability I have found the mysterious Yvonne house exterior (interior was a studio set), one of the 9 open cases and the last location left in this episode! 

LAST NEW LOCATION: YVONNE´s HOUSE EXTERIOR, 1302 NE 123 Street, North Miami (near studio)

All major indicators fully match:

• the special roofline (gabled+flat towards the rear=ORANGE in the pic)
• the location and type of the chimney (MAGENTA)
• the long neighbor house (warehouse type-like) with flat roof and distance (YELLOW)
• the entrance block of the house NOT in-line with the rest of the roofline next to the neighbor house (BLUE) - ie. this part is not a room extension to the rear, but a small garden utility house shifted towards the neighbor property (this feature I did not see earlier, thus my location sketch was wrong on it)
• the powerline running down the street and masts are exactly at the right place (N-S street matches as well as these are major powerlines!) - TURQUOISE
• all the trees we see in the episode are in the right place and distance (GREEN)
• Tubbs car route to the rear works fine (RED)
• I always suspected this house (short scene, convenience location) must be close to studio or other locations because it is really PMT running from the caddy towards the house - I recognized his running and holding the gun - no way that was a double or that they did long travel for this short scene. All searches in the Grove near the other locations (gambler meet, playground, Mayfair complex) came up empty. 
• This location is next to the prop warehouse of the series production (makes sense logistics-wise) 

The only small non-fit (explainable) is the missing house on the OTHER side on the street (seen behind Swayne driving off). This house is NOT on the 1986 aerial, but looks new in 1989, could have been torn down before 1995 again and 1995+after aerials are too blurry/inconclusive. BUT: the tree right of the house is there in 1986 as well as the long green hedge we see in front of the house (GREEN)!

House was torn down long time ago, today is a car supply company on the lot.

My bottom line: that´s it! Nearly 10 matches above are beyond any chance of coincidence. Any thoughts? @airtommy@daytona365@Dadrian?

Edited January 17, 2023 by Tom

[airtommy]

Awesome find!  It looks like a 100% perfect match to me.

I think the house across the street is the back side of 12245 NE 12th Place, with the zoom making it look closer than it is.

[Tom]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb airtommy:

Awesome find!  It looks like a 100% perfect match to me.

I think the house across the street is the back side of 12245 NE 12th Place, with the zoom making it look closer than it is.

Yes, that crossed my mind too briefly, but I excluded that idea for the long distance, but on second sight you are absolutely right! That´s the clincher! Thanks for the overwatch!

1. It´s around 17m from the hedge to the house. These zooms have fooled us many times before. The wider shot when Swayne runs towards the car gives a more realistic impression of the distance and it confirms your assumption!
2. Also the house across is located a bit to the right compared to Yvonne´s house which is a fit too.
3. Even the big green bush is there -that seems to be at the street hedge but is in fact at the right side of the house - at the same place (GREEN)!
4. I just saw that there is a stern on the right side on the house (ORANGE). That fits too!
5. the "garden hut" (RED) matches (today they have a different "hut" on streetview at the same place)
6. Overall house size and roof-type fits too.
7. House is the same as in 1989 as it was built in 1949 and only sold once after MV in the 90s)

That makes again 7 full matches between TV and the 1986 aerial to exclude any coincidence and overall secures the find! 

Unfortunately we don´t get a clear view on Streetview of the back of the house (not even on the historic 2011 streetview as one single d**d palm tree in front of the camera blocks sight), only from the side (NE 123 rd street), but all matches above compensate for it. See proof below.

CASE CLOSED. Finally. Last doubts erased by @airtommy´s input.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Tom

[Tom]

Savoy plaza Hotel (425 Ocean Drive) in 1941

 

[Tom]

Screenshot/enlargement from the Koch BluRay confirms it´s the "Savoy". 

[Tom]

Location sheet from Monday 27 March 1989 (3rd day of 7) - thanks to a good friend´s courtesy - has no big news, but we get a few confirmations:

The restaurant scenes and Swain´s apartment were inside the Mayfair, as we already found out earlier in this thread.

The address of Elizabeth Virrick park is stated wrong. 3580 Park Ave does not exist in Coconut Grove. The Anonymous Gambler meet of Switek that is listed under the same fantasy address was filmed at the same small church used in Child´s play at 3635 Grand Ave, just a few blocks away, as I proved earlier in both episodes´ threads.

Here are again the comparison pics that both episodes used the same location. 

As we already discussed earlier: Val´s apartment, as well as Val´s short NYC apartment scene and the interior of Switek´s apartment were filmed in studio (shown in advance for next day, 28 March 1989. On 29 March 1989 they also filmed in studio the interior scenes of Yvonne´s apartment  before filming the exterior of her place at the address near the studio that I recently discovered here in this thread.

The confirmation that the hospital scene in the opening credits was a studio set (as assumed) is missing here on these sheets. As this scene is so short I doubt that it is a different non-studio location - all the morgue scenes in season 5 were also studio sets. If it was a real location, it could have been filmed at the doctor´s office inside the Mayfair as well (I am sure a big complex like this has a doctor).

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Tom

[Tom]

@Dadrian @airtommy @miamijimf @Matt5

NEW LOCATION FOUND: THE BAR INTERIOR, TOKYO ROSE 13488 Biscayne Bvd, North Miami

Bombshell: another location list in a new ebay auction revealed that the bar where C&T meet Izzy was NOT the Savoy (despite the napkins, as suspected earlier). The address is very blurry on the picture, but I was able to identify 134XX Biscayne Bvd and deduce the rest, as there are very few 134XX addresses on Biscayne.

I could not read the name of the bar (5-letter word plus 4-letter word) - found name later, see in next post- but the name of the owner (Masa Yamazaki). Thus, I found the Shoppes of Biscayne Building at 13400-13488 Biscayne that was built in 1988. And there is only one number that fits - the last one with the long glass front left of the entrance (seen from the inside) we see on TV which is the glass front alongside the south side of NE135 Street.

Clear evidence by lots of exact matches: the entry door behind Tubbs, the long glass front -including small dividers and columns at the same frequency on the left, the layout of the place (see pics of the Pinecrest Bakery that was there recently and is closed now) and similarly shaped lamps on the columns.

The thick white rectangular columns and the big glass block walls inside the bakery are gone, but both is still visible on the outside of the building.

Another case falsified and solved. ENJOY!

Edited September 17, 2023 by Tom

[Tom]

After lots of research I was able to identify the name of the bar location. It was "Tokyo Rose", a very stylish restaurant by a Japanese owner (Masa Yamasaki) and it was even mentioned and visually described as Miami Vice set in a Sun Sentinel article in June 1989! Now it´s also clear why the location looked like Art Deco inside - that was intentional according to the article in the newly opened mall where the restaurant was the anchor establishment.

Once you know the name, it´s easier to recognize on the location list. Otherwise, it´s too blurry to spot exactly.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/1989/06/02/tokyo-rose-blooms-in-north-miami-spot/

See screenshot below.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Tom