Dick Wolf's approach


Guest myonlyvice

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Guest myonlyvice

Has anybody ever gotten the impression that Dick Wolf treated Miami Vice more like a science experiment rather than a project that he genuinely cared about? It seems like he was more interested in seeing how many outlandish/controversial things he could get away with rather than actually trying to nurture the show with quality ideas. I know the concept of "quality" is subjective but it seems this way to me. I think there's still plenty to like in the Dick Wolf years but he just did not seem to understand the vibe of the show. It hurts to imagine how much greater the show might have been had Mann been there all five years as executive producer. On a side note, it's an utter shame that Mann took off after S2 for something as unworthy (comparatively speaking) as "Crime Story". How many websites has THAT series spawned? How much influence has IT had on society? How many people still discuss IT today? I rest my case.

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Has anybody ever gotten the impression that Dick Wolf treated Miami Vice more like a science experiment rather than a project that he genuinely cared about? It seems like he was more interested in seeing how many outlandish/controversial things he could get away with rather than actually trying to nurture the show with quality ideas. I know the concept of "quality" is subjective but it seems this way to me. I think there's still plenty to like in the Dick Wolf years but he just did not seem to understand the vibe of the show. It hurts to imagine how much greater the show might have been had Mann been there all five years as executive producer. On a side note' date=' it's an utter shame that Mann took off after S2 for something as unworthy (comparatively speaking) as "Crime Story". How many websites has THAT series spawned? How much influence has IT had on society? How many people still discuss IT today? I rest my case.[/quote'] I agree with you 100%, I think Dick Wolf Changed the direction of the show concentrating on international stories and not "getting" what the show was about. As for Mann, it's always better to go out on top, makes you look better...Crime Story was ok, but it didn't have the appeal as MV did, IMO.
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I agree with you 100%' date=' I think Dick Wolf Changed the direction of the show concentrating on international stories and not "getting" what the show was about. As for Mann, it's always better to go out on top, makes you look better...Crime Story was ok, but it didn't have the appeal as MV did, IMO.[/quote'] Neither did Nash Bridges, not like Vice did. I sometimes get the feeling that Wolf took on a show he had a lot of contempt for, and it shows in the radical direction MV took. Kind of like critics of the show who think it's all style over substance when there's so much depth and humanity to be had from episode to episode in the first two seasons.
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Had it continued, I think Crime Story would've been just as beloved as MV continues to be today.JMOIn the 90's Wolf took a buzzsaw to another great cop drama.New York Undercover.He's like the kid who breaks up all his new toys on x-mas morning.

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He's like the kid who breaks up all his new toys on x-mas morning.

I like that analysis! IMO, he was the wrong choice to continue the series (my guess is NBC looked at his "history" with cop shows, etc and chose him based on that).
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Dick Wolf's MV Hit and Miss List / You Be The Judge:I did a real quick copy/paste from IMdB on his MV work: "Miami Vice" (39 episodes ) 1. When Irish Eyes Are Crying (26 September 1986) - Writer (teleplay) , co-producer 2. Stone's War (3 October 1986) - co-producer 3. Killshot (10 October 1986) - co-producer 4. Walk-Alone (17 October 1986) - co-producer 5. The Good Collar (24 October 1986) - co-producer 6. Shadow in the Dark (31 October 1986) - co-producer 7. El Viejo (7 November 1986) - co-producer 8. Better Living Through Chemistry (14 November 1986) - Writer (teleplay) , co-producer 9. Baby Blues (21 November 1986) - Writer (story) , co-producer 10. Streetwise (5 December 1986) - co-producer 11. Forgive Us Our Debts (12 December 1986) - co-producer 12. Down for the Count: Part 1 (9 January 1987) - Writer (story) (teleplay) , co-producer 13. Down for the Count: Part 2 (16 January 1987) - Writer (story) (teleplay) , co-producer 14. Cuba Libre (23 January 1987) - co-producer 15. The Savage (6 February 1987) - co-producer 16. Theresa (13 February 1987) - co-producer 17. The Afternoon Plane (20 February 1987) - co-producer 18. Lend Me an Ear (27 February 1987) - Writer (story) , co-producer 19. Red Tape (13 March 1987) - co-producer 20. By Hooker by Crook (20 March 1987) - Writer (story) , co-producer 21. Knock, Knock... Who's There? (27 March 1987) - Writer (story) , co-producer 22. Viking Bikers from Hell (3 April 1987) - Writer (teleplay) , co-producer 23. Everybody's in Show Biz (1 May 1987) - co-producer 24. Heroes of the Revolution (8 May 1987) - Writer (story) , co-producer 25. Like a Hurricane (20 November 1987) - co-executive producer 26. The Rising Sun of Death (4 December 1987) - co-executive producer 27. Love at First Sight (15 January 1988) - co-executive producer 28. A Rock and a Hard Place (22 January 1988) - Writer (story) , co-executive producer 29. The Cows of October (5 February 1988) - co-executive producer 30. Vote of Confidence (12 February 1988) - co-executive producer 31. Baseballs of Death (19 February 1988) - co-executive producer 32. Indian Wars (26 February 1988) - co-executive producer 33. Honor Among Thieves? (4 March 1988) - co-executive producer 34. Hell Hath No Fury (11 March 1988) - co-executive producer 35. Badge of Dishonor (18 March 1988) - Writer (story) , co-executive producer 36. Blood & Roses (1 April 1988) - Writer (story) , co-executive producer 37. A Bullet for Crockett (15 April 1988) - Writer (excerpts) (uncredited) (story) , co-executive producer 38. Deliver Us from Evil (29 April 1988) - Writer (story) , co-executive producer 39. Mirror Image (6 May 1988) - co-executive producer

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Gotta say theres no Season like Season 1. But Season 2 IMHO was frustrating, and Mann was there. I like S3 and S4. I didnt watch S5 yet. Of course theres some terrible episodes on 3 and 4 but...theres no season with 100% great episodes.

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Gotta say theres no Season like Season 1. But Season 2 IMHO was frustrating' date=' and Mann was there. I like S3 and S4. I didnt watch S5 yet. Of course theres some terrible episodes on 3 and 4 but...theres no season with 100% great episodes.[/quote'] Season 1 comes close to being perfect. The Maze falters a bit but still turns out better than some of the best episodes of later years.
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Guest myonlyvice
I did a real quick copy/paste from IMdB on his MV work: "Miami Vice" (39 episodes ) 1. When Irish Eyes Are Crying (26 September 1986) - Writer (teleplay) ' date=' co-producer 2. Stone's War (3 October 1986) - co-producer 3. Killshot (10 October 1986) - co-producer 4. Walk-Alone (17 October 1986) - co-producer 5. The Good Collar (24 October 1986) - co-producer 6. Shadow in the Dark (31 October 1986) - co-producer 7. El Viejo (7 November 1986) - co-producer 8. Better Living Through Chemistry (14 November 1986) - Writer (teleplay) , co-producer 9. Baby Blues (21 November 1986) - Writer (story) , co-producer 10. Streetwise (5 December 1986) - co-producer 11. Forgive Us Our Debts (12 December 1986) - co-producer 12. Down for the Count: Part 1 (9 January 1987) - Writer (story) (teleplay) , co-producer 13. Down for the Count: Part 2 (16 January 1987) - Writer (story) (teleplay) , co-producer 14. Cuba Libre (23 January 1987) - co-producer 15. The Savage (6 February 1987) - co-producer 16. Theresa (13 February 1987) - co-producer 17. The Afternoon Plane (20 February 1987) - co-producer 18. Lend Me an Ear (27 February 1987) - Writer (story) , co-producer 19. Red Tape (13 March 1987) - co-producer 20. By Hooker by Crook (20 March 1987) - Writer (story) , co-producer 21. Knock, Knock... Who's There? (27 March 1987) - Writer (story) , co-producer 22. Viking Bikers from Hell (3 April 1987) - Writer (teleplay) , co-producer 23. Everybody's in Show Biz (1 May 1987) - co-producer 24. Heroes of the Revolution (8 May 1987) - Writer (story) , co-producer 25. Like a Hurricane (20 November 1987) - co-executive producer 26. The Rising Sun of Death (4 December 1987) - co-executive producer 27. Love at First Sight (15 January 1988) - co-executive producer 28. A Rock and a Hard Place (22 January 1988) - Writer (story) , co-executive producer 29. The Cows of October (5 February 1988) - co-executive producer 30. Vote of Confidence (12 February 1988) - co-executive producer 31. Baseballs of Death (19 February 1988) - co-executive producer 32. Indian Wars (26 February 1988) - co-executive producer 33. Honor Among Thieves? (4 March 1988) - co-executive producer 34. Hell Hath No Fury (11 March 1988) - co-executive producer 35. Badge of Dishonor (18 March 1988) - Writer (story) , co-executive producer 36. Blood & Roses (1 April 1988) - Writer (story) , co-executive producer 37. A Bullet for Crockett (15 April 1988) - Writer (excerpts) (uncredited) (story) , co-executive producer 38. Deliver Us from Evil (29 April 1988) - Writer (story) , co-executive producer 39. Mirror Image (6 May 1988) - co-executive producer[/quote'] It seems I should have done my homework. While Wolf was responsible for all of season three, which I feel represents the show's lowest point, I failed to give credit to Richard Brams and Robert Ward and perhaps others for their roles in deviating from what was a perfect formula.
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It seems I should have done my homework. While Wolf was responsible for all of season three' date=' which I feel represents the show's lowest point, I failed to give credit to Richard Brams and Robert Ward and perhaps others for their roles in deviating from what was a perfect formula.[/quote'] Do you truly believe Season 3 was worse than 4 and 5? Granted, I know stuff like Viking Bikers from Hell wasn't prime Vice, but stuff like Missing Hours was enough to sink all of Season 4 with just one episode!
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Pastels were apparently lost on him. I'll give him credit for ay least some color coordination, but he went too bold. Bright green lights shining on buildings in night scenes, bold colors on the actors, "Big Booty Trudy" on Trudy's desk. I guess it could just have been the style of the time, but I think the color really played a role in the mood of the show. Plus, he brought back the flashing red and blues that really weren't there very often since before castillo.As for stories, I think he strayed too far from the shows focus. Still love it though. He may have gone too bold, but there were some awesome car chase scenes. The lighting and cinematography of which were excellent. Who knows what he was really in control of though. I never liked Law & Order. Still don't.

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Have to agree, at least to some point. MV definitely changed it's vibe after Mann's leaving. I can't insist that it became much worse, but the shining radiance of the first season was gone, and the experiments weren't always good indeed. I like all seasons anyway, though, they are all interesting in their own manner.

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Pastels were apparently lost on him. I'll give him credit for ay least some color coordination' date=' but he went too bold. Bright green lights shining on buildings in night scenes, bold colors on the actors, "Big Booty Trudy" on Trudy's desk. I guess it could just have been the style of the time, but I think the color really played a role in the mood of the show. Plus, he brought back the flashing red and blues that really weren't there very often since before castillo.As for stories, I think he strayed too far from the shows focus. Still love it though. He may have gone too bold, but there were some awesome car chase scenes. The lighting and cinematography of which were excellent. Who knows what he was really in control of though. I never liked Law & Order. Still don't.[/quote'] Very well said. Maybe that's why they tried to return to form in Season 4, color-wise, that is.I never liked L&O either, or the CSIs, or NYPD Blue, etc. Once you're exposed to Vice, you're spoiled! :)
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Guest myonlyvice
Do you truly believe Season 3 was worse than 4 and 5? Granted' date=' I know stuff like Viking Bikers from Hell wasn't prime Vice, but stuff like Missing Hours was enough to sink all of Season 4 with just one episode![/quote'] There's something about the majority of season three that really rubs me the wrong way. The whole approach to the season, especially the first half, seemed to indicate shame or even scorn for the previous two seasons. While all episodes of Vice are worth watching (save "Heap of Filth"), the deeper I get into the show, the more I find myself skipping over large chunks of season three. I don't feel any single episode or episodes can sink a season. All seasons have their ups and downs, relatively speaking. I'm a huge fan of "Shadow in the Dark", "Forgive Us Our Debts", and "Duty and Honor", for example. And there are other episodes too that I enjoy in it. S3 is not a complete loss. It's just the one containing the greatest concentration of skippable episodes in my view. Season four definitely has its share of episodes I normally skip. There are four to be precise compared to 11 in season 3. Most might disagree with me on this but, apart from those four episodes, season four is a much better season than season three. I started a thread awhile back called "Season four minus four". I think you posted on it already. Anyway, that thread pretty much sums up how I feel about season four. I feel many people, but not you necessarily, are unfair to season four as a whole simply because it happens to contain "Missing Hours" and a couple of others. To all fans of Vice I recommend the S4minus 4 approach. For myself perhaps I should consider a season three minus 11 approach! :)
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There's something about the majority of season three that really rubs me the wrong way. The whole approach to the season' date=' especially the first half, seemed to indicate shame or even scorn for the previous two seasons. While all episodes of Vice are worth watching (save "Heap of Filth"), the deeper I get into the show, the more I find myself skipping over large chunks of season three. I don't feel any single episode or episodes can sink a season. All seasons have their ups and downs, relatively speaking. I'm a huge fan of "Shadow in the Dark", "Forgive Us Our Debts", and "Duty and Honor", for example. And there are other episodes too that I enjoy in it. S3 is not a complete loss. It's just the one containing the greatest concentration of skippable episodes in my view. Season four definitely has its share of episodes I normally skip. There are four to be precise compared to 11 in season 3. Most might disagree with me on this but, apart from those four episodes, season four is a much better season than season three. I started a thread awhile back called "Season four minus four". I think you posted on it already. Anyway, that thread pretty much sums up how I feel about season four. I feel many people, but not you necessarily, are unfair to season four as a whole simply because it happens to contain "Missing Hours" and a couple of others. To all fans of Vice I recommend the S4minus 4 approach. For myself perhaps I should consider a season three minus 11 approach! :)[/quote'] Yes, you're right, I think that sums up why I view Season 4 the way I do. The good episodes are good, the bad episodes are really bad. But with Season 3, there aren't any real stinkers; it's just that a majority miss the mark. It's hard for me to be objective about Season 3 because I also love Shadow in the Dark, Forgive Us Our Debts, El Viejo, etc. I guess I'm one to give worse demerits to Season 5 for more obvious reasons, e.g. DJ's total absence from some shows.I guess my question would be: How could Season 3 have been better under Dick Wolf's watch?Or even better: How would Season 3 have turned out had Michael Mann stayed on and not did Crime Story? I'm thinking it'd be better than Season 2, which is almost impossible because you can't improve upon perfection. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
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Guest myonlyvice

really bad. But with Season 3, there aren't any real stinkers; it's just that a majority miss the mark. It's hard for me to be objective about Season 3 because I also love Shadow in the Dark, Forgive Us Our Debts, El Viejo, etc. I guess I'm one to give worse demerits to Season 5 for more obvious reasons, e.g. DJ's total absence from some shows.I guess my question would be: How could Season 3 have been better under Dick Wolf's watch?Or even better: How would Season 3 have turned out had Michael Mann stayed on and not did Crime Story? I'm thinking it'd be better than Season 2, which is almost impossible because you can't improve upon perfection. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Season three has no absolute stinkers? I'm curious how you feel about "Showbiz". If you can believe it, for me this episode is even more impossible to watch than "Missing Hours". At least in "Missing Hours" you get to feast your eyes on the most excellent Trudy, who looked hotter in this episode than at any other time in the series. And that's saying something. "Missing Hours" is 48 minutes of "What the He**?", but it is otherwise harmless. "Showbiz" is so irritating and grating on the nerves with that dude's screaming and trying to wax poetic I can actually feel my blood pressure rise when I watch it. I'm not joking.Dick Wolf would have been well advised not to mess with the show's visuals/style like he did. Ever notice how this is the only season where Crockett doesn't wear Wayfarers? Why? Was it really that important to Wolf that in order to fully turn the show on its head he had to take away one of Crockett's most enduring trademarks? Insanity! Apparently he also incorrectly thought he could get away with no whites or pastels, but later in season three he seemed to realize how bad an idea this was and you start to see Crockett in more familiar garb. He also should not have gone so heavily down the path of politically-themed and "socially conscious" episodes. There's a time and a place for this type of storytelling but Vice was NOT an appropriate venue. Episodes like "Irish Eyes" and "Rising Sun of Death", while not bad (I never skip these), are inappropriate for Vice because the IRA and the Yakuza have nothing inherent to do with the city of Miami or vice cops. Wolf was so darn selfish though in his vision for the show he didn't care. These were stories he wanted to tell even if they didn't really fit in Miami.Simply put, seasons 3, 4, and 5 would have been much better if Mann had stuck around and kept them more in line with the precedent set by the first two.
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IMO, there was nothing bad in adressing "socially-conscious" issues in MV... I mean, why not? I agree that maybe it was stretched in that Miami cops handled something that wasn't "really" their concern... but all at the same time it could be rather boring to watch 120 episodes of nothing more that catching drug dealers and prostitutes.(And tell me what wasn't "stretched" in this wonderful show, anyway? Maybe an alligator on Crockett's boat? :D). Just IMHO.

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Prick Wolf definitley got up on his soapbox in season three.The best epiosdes are grouped together in mini trilogies.Walk AloneThe Good CollarShadow in the DarkForgive Us Our DebtsDown for the Count pts 1-2Rest of the season consists of eppys rangin from good to abysmal.Good: El Viejo, Red Tape, By Hooker by Crook and a few others.Abysmal: Theresa, When Irish Eyes Are Crying, Viking Bikers from Hell,Everybody's in Show Biz. Let's not forget the piss poor conclusion to the Calderone Saga The Afternoon Plane.Stink...Stank...STUNK! :sick:JM0

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Guest myonlyvice
IMO' date=' there was nothing bad in adressing "socially-conscious" issues in MV... I mean, why not? I agree that maybe it was stretched in that Miami cops handled something that wasn't "really" their concern... but all at the same time it could be rather boring to watch 120 episodes of nothing more that catching drug dealers and prostitutes.(And tell me what wasn't "stretched" in this wonderful show, anyway? Maybe an alligator on Crockett's boat? :D). Just IMHO.[/quote'] There's nothing wrong with exploring issues other than dealers and pimps. In fact, this was done in the first two seasons on a fairly regular basis. The difference then was that these deeper issues fit seemlessly into the presentation. Wolf didn't do it right though, and at times overdid it. Consider the difference between "Evan", "Lombard", "Out Where the Buses Don't Run" and "Definitely Miami" with "Irish Eyes", "Baby Blues", "Stone's War", and "Cuba Libre". All these episodes explore deeper issues but the first group has so much style and is actually fun to watch compared to the second group which at times feels like nothing more than watching a serious social commentary. Again, there's nothing wrong with pure serious social commentary but Vice is not the place for it. Spyder made a great comment earlier; it was something to the effect that some people make it seem as if the first two seasons had not a bit of humanity in them, only T&A, Ferrari's, and designer clothes. This is not true. The first two seasons did it all, perfectly, and never skipped a beat. Dick wolf never came close.
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There's nothing wrong with exploring issues other than dealers and pimps. In fact' date=' this was done in the first two seasons on a fairly regular basis. The difference then was that these deeper issues fit seemlessly into the presentation. Wolf didn't do it right though, and at times overdid it. Consider the difference between "Evan", "Lombard", "Out Where the Buses Don't Run" and "Definitely Miami" with "Irish Eyes", "Baby Blues", "Stone's War", and "Cuba Libre". All these episodes explore deeper issues but the first group has so much style and is actually fun to watch compared to the second group which at times feels like nothing more than watching a serious social commentary. Again, there's nothing wrong with pure serious social commentary but Vice is not the place for it. Spyder made a great comment earlier; it was something to the effect that some people make it seem as if the first two seasons had not a bit of humanity in them, only T&A, Ferrari's, and designer clothes. This is not true. The first two seasons did it all, perfectly, and never skipped a beat. Dick wolf never came close.[/quote'] It may seem hard to believe, but seasons 1-2 are actually my favourites... LOL (At least season 1 definitely - just finished rewatching it, thinking about how great it was and how wonderful was every episode. :D) I DEFINITELY don't think that they were only about Ferraris and clothes. And somehow I'm used to consider season 3 my least favourite too (though in fact I just don't remember most of the episodes clearly, so I may change my mind when I rewatch it). But all at the same time I don't mind a little variety and diversion now and then. I can agree to a point that maybe addressing social issues in season 3 wasn't subtle enough as compared to s. 1-2... though maybe it was just different, I like it both ways.
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Guest myonlyvice
It may seem hard to believe' date=' but seasons 1-2 are actually my favourites... LOL (At least season 1 definitely - just finished rewatching it, thinking about how great it was and how wonderful was every episode. :D) I DEFINITELY don't think that they were only about Ferraris and clothes. And somehow I'm used to consider season 3 my least favourite too (though in fact I just don't remember most of the episodes clearly, so I may change my mind when I rewatch it). But all at the same time I don't mind a little variety and diversion now and then. I can agree to a point that maybe addressing social issues in season 3 wasn't subtle enough as compared to s. 1-2... though maybe it was just different, I like it both ways.[/quote'] I appreciate your comments, cheetah. I don't mind variety either. In and of itself, it's great. For me personally, as I only watch chronologically, it's just always a bit of a disappointment after I finish seasons 1 and 2 to see how the show was changed. You know what's funny though is that as big of an advocate as I am for seasons one and two, my favorite episode of the series is actually season four's "Mirror Image", and I don't even have to think twice about it. I'm happy about this too because I have something invested on both sides of the fence. Otherwise there might be a Miami Vice Civil War raging in my heart. And you know what they say about a house divided...
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Guest myonlyvice
Thanks, C&B. Wolf obviously thinks he's improved the stories, as I'm sure he would. Among others, I would not include "Baby Blues" or "Stone's War" as instances of improved storytelling. He's a narcissist living in his own world. And why did a mandate from Mann to improve the stories involve destroying the style and look of the show?
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