Episode #19 "The Home Invaders"

[ViceFanMan]

2 minutes ago, Miami Beau said:

Great observation @ViceFanMan

This is one of the most badass Castillo moments in the entire series. I’ve always considered this a straight up death. It never entered my mind that Castillo had just knocked the guy out. At that point all bets were off, then next thing we see Castillo do is smash open the garden widow and began to shoot. Castillo didn’t even identify himself as a police officer, shoot to kill time. 

Agreed...things had gotten so far out of control, and the home invader gang had gotten so out of control/deadly, that the mission was to take and/or wipe ‘em out. No questions asked. This was not a group to just give up and surrender, either. They would fight & try to kill to the end.

[fakespyder]

Until this thread it never even crossed my mind that Castillo may have killed the guy. I really don't think so.

Pretty sure he just knocks him out.

[RedDragon86]

7 hours ago, fakespyder said:

Until this thread it never even crossed my mind that Castillo may have killed the guy. I really don't think so.

Pretty sure he just knocks him out.

But there was a break in his neck.

I think he broke his neck. The thing is can you put someone to sleep like that? I thought the only way you can knock someone out is either by a sleeper hold or a bang on the head, he pulls his head back in an aggressive way and you hear a crack.

Edited November 22, 2022 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

28 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

But there was a break in his neck.

I think he broke his neck. The thing is can you put someone to sleep like that? I thought the only way you can knock someone out is either by a sleeper hold or a bang on the head, he pull his head back in an aggressive way and you hear a crack.

I agree. When you break someone’s neck they usually die...it does not just render them unconscious, and Castillo definitely wrenches the thug’s head back & you can hear the crack of the neck. 

[Robbie C.]

1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said:

But there was a break in his neck.

I think he broke his neck. The thing is can you put someone to sleep like that? I thought the only way you can knock someone out is either by a sleeper hold or a bang on the head, he pulls his head back in an aggressive way and you hear a crack.

It's either going to kill or paralyze them. I always assumed Castillo just killed him...you didn't see the sleeper hold all that often on these shows during this period. I'd have to watch the scene again to be sure, though (likely with headphones to determine just when the cracking sound occurs). 

[ViceFanMan]

Had time over my lunch to pop in the episode. Crockett handcuffs the thug to the door handle of his car, and says “One word out of you, and I’ll just get in and drive away!” Castillo then grabs a hold of his head and says “Better yet, good night!”...wrenching the guy’s neck & you hear a quick crack/snap. To me this definitely indicates that Castillo made the choice to snap the guy’s neck, and take him out permanently. He was dead. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by ViceFanMan

[fakespyder]

I always thought he constricted blood flow from the guy's neck, thus rendering him unconscious. The act of throwing him back like that aids in the speed of unconsciousness.

I don't see Castillo killing a handcuffed person...even if said person is scum. It does not fit with how I see his character.

[Dadrian]

He went Spock on that MF. Case closed.  

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, fakespyder said:

I always thought he constricted blood flow from the guy's neck, thus rendering him unconscious. The act of throwing him back like that aids in the speed of unconsciousness.

I don't see Castillo killing a handcuffed person...even if said person is scum. It does not fit with how I see his character.

In a typical case you’d probably be right. But, this wasn’t a typical case. The gang had become so deadly & out of control, that the mission was basically shoot-to-kill—take the gang out however necessary, most likely by deadly force. Plus, the thug who was the “watch” outside had killed a cop earlier...shooting him point blank range. Once you kill a cop, you basically become a target of law enforcement.

Also, in order to constrict the blood flow to render the guy unconscious (aka the sleeper hold), Castillo would have had to put his arms around the guy’s neck & start squeezing to stop the blood flow. This would take a few minutes or a while. It doesn’t happen immediately or within seconds. 

Castillo doesn’t do this...he grabs the guy’s head & twists/wrenches it immediately, with a quick snap or cracking sound. I believe he made the decision to kill the guy to ensure the safety of himself & Crockett when entering the home. Otherwise, the punk could have honked the horn, gotten loose somehow, or done something to warn his fellow gang members that cops were on the way in. The situation had become desperate enough that it became a take em out for good mission...not an arrest & interrogate one. 

[Miami Beau]

2 hours ago, fakespyder said:

I always thought he constricted blood flow from the guy's neck, thus rendering him unconscious. The act of throwing him back like that aids in the speed of unconsciousness.

I don't see Castillo killing a handcuffed person...even if said person is scum. It does not fit with how I see his character.

I appreciate this may go against your feelings towards the character, but all indicators show the guy was killed. I forgot about the thug being handcuffed though. Even more badass. Castillo taking no prisons. Same thing goes with Walk-Alone. Castillo had that no nonsense attitude shooting back at those police officers 

[fakespyder]

I don't know guys. What you all are describing sounds more like a revenge movie than the way Castillo acted and asked his team to act.

FWIW it can take less than a second to pass out if your blood flow to the brain is stopped. I've seen it done. It is quite shocking.

Next time I watch it I'll keep an ear out for the neck snap. Makes Sonny's threat to drive off seem kind of stupid if Castillo did indeed execute the guy.

Also I don't see Castillo saying "Good night" so coldly if he was killing him.

What you all are describing creeps me out.

But I see I'm in a minority on this one.

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, fakespyder said:

I don't know guys. What you all are describing sounds more like a revenge movie than the way Castillo acted and asked his team to act.

FWIW it can take less than a second to pass out if your blood flow to the brain is stopped. I've seen it done. It is quite shocking.

Next time I watch it I'll keep an ear out for the neck snap. Makes Sonny's threat to drive off seem kind of stupid if Castillo did indeed execute the guy.

Also I don't see Castillo saying "Good night" so coldly if he was killing him.

What you all are describing creeps me out.

But I see I'm in a minority on this one.

No worries...it’s okay to be in the minority sometimes.  

It’s not really revenge Castillo is acting on...it’s military/law enforcement training & mindset when a person, gang/group, or situation has gotten so far out of control that deadly force is needed to stop it/them.

Typically a sleeper hold takes a few minutes to take effect...but, perhaps there is a way to do it almost immediately? However, Castillo doesn’t put his arms around the neck to put the sleeper on the guy...he takes a hold of his head & immediately twists it, snapping the punk’s neck.

Crockett handcuffed the thug first...then Castillo made the decision to take him out instead. I see this as to ensure the safety of the cops’ infiltration into the home, to take out the rest of the gang...as the thug would have tried to warn the other gang members.

This was also not a group of people who would readily surrender & let themselves be arrested. They were killers, who would kill to the end to try and escape. Castillo & the rest knew that most likely the gang members would be taken out by use of deadly force. 

 I fully agree that the dialogue Castillo said was weird & goofy for what he actually did. Something like “Goodbye”, “Good riddance”, or “You’re done” would have made more sense. But, even in the show’s “glory” days, which this episode was definitely in, sometimes the writers still didn’t focus as much on the words as they maybe should have. Everything primarily focused on visuals.  

[ViceFanMan]

The episode’s true star!  Whatever you do, don’t buy a blue Corvette...Muriel has some words on that for us below:

“I wouldn’t own a car that color!” 

Edited November 23, 2022 by ViceFanMan

[Robbie C.]

2 hours ago, fakespyder said:

I don't know guys. What you all are describing sounds more like a revenge movie than the way Castillo acted and asked his team to act.

FWIW it can take less than a second to pass out if your blood flow to the brain is stopped. I've seen it done. It is quite shocking.

Next time I watch it I'll keep an ear out for the neck snap. Makes Sonny's threat to drive off seem kind of stupid if Castillo did indeed execute the guy.

Also I don't see Castillo saying "Good night" so coldly if he was killing him.

What you all are describing creeps me out.

But I see I'm in a minority on this one.

I wouldn't say that. I need to rewatch the episode first. Reserving an opinion until that happens.

[OCBman]

13 hours ago, fakespyder said:

I don't see Castillo killing a handcuffed person...even if said person is scum. It does not fit with how I see his character.

I completely agree. I always remember Castillo's great monologue in Golden Triangle - Part II:

CROCKETT: What about General Lao Li?

CASTILLO: I'll handle Lao Li myself.

CROCKETT: Are we, uh, talkin' vigilante time here, Lieutenant?

CASTILLO: In the time I've spent here, I think...you people know me better than that. I have a thousand reasons to play O.K. Corral with Lao Li and Menton. But I'm a policeman. I enforce the law... Equally applied, no special cases. Maybe it sounds naive, but it's all I've got. It's what I believe in, and it's who I am.

Edited November 23, 2022 by OCBman

[Robbie C.]

So I had a chance to re-watch this, and I don't think he killed the guy in the car. The sound in that particular scene is a bit muddy, and what I think is being taken for the crack of the guy's neck is really handful chain noise (either dubbed in or recorded live). Castillo doesn't have a good angle to break his neck, but based on his hand position he could easily have knocked the guy out by constricting blood flow (you'll notice where his left hand is during almost the entire scene - under the guy's chin and on his neck). Plus, just taking someone out (as has been observed) simply isn't part of Castillo's character, especially at this point in the series. Sloppy sound confuses the issue.

[Glades]

52 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

So I had a chance to re-watch this, and I don't think he killed the guy in the car. The sound in that particular scene is a bit muddy, and what I think is being taken for the crack of the guy's neck is really handful chain noise (either dubbed in or recorded live). Castillo doesn't have a good angle to break his neck, but based on his hand position he could easily have knocked the guy out by constricting blood flow (you'll notice where his left hand is during almost the entire scene - under the guy's chin and on his neck). Plus, just taking someone out (as has been observed) simply isn't part of Castillo's character, especially at this point in the series. Sloppy sound confuses the issue.

I have also re-watched the scene. I find the sound very unspecific. It can come from anything. Does a broken neck make a clearly audible noise at all?
I also suspect that in this case it would be more an injury to the nerves and vessels that would lead to death and not a broken bone. It is surely not that easy to break a vertebra by hand. But i´m not familiar with such things.
In the script, by the way, there is only Crockett's sentence and then the two go to the house. The scene with Castillo and the burglar doesn't exist at all. I can't imagine that something like the killing of a handcuffed prisoner would just be added.
And the killing doesn't fit Castillo's character.
So I agree with Robbie.

[Robbie C.]

1 minute ago, Glades said:

I have also re-watched the scene. I find the sound very unspecific. It can come from anything. Does a broken neck make a clearly audible noise at all?
I also suspect that in this case it would be more an injury to the nerves and vessels that would lead to death and not a broken bone. It is surely not that easy to break a vertebra by hand. But i´m not familiar with such things.
In the script, by the way, there is only Crockett's sentence and then the two go to the house. The scene with Castillo and the burglar doesn't exist at all. I can't imagine that something like the killing of a handcuffed prisoner would just be added.
And the killing doesn't fit Castillo's character.
So I agree with Robbie.

Movies from this time period usually added a loud, audible crack when someone's neck was broken. Based on Castillo's hand position alone I'd again say he just knocked the driver out and didn't kill him. He's not in a good position for leverage, and he doesn't seem to exert enough pressure or force to kill. But as Glades mentioned, killing in this way doesn't line up with what Castillo does.

[ViceFanMan]

I have just re-watched this scene again...this time in 3 different formats, so-to-speak. I first watched the Blu-ray, then the Universal DVD, and finally on my original NBC airing. Although I still think it’s somewhat questionable...it very well could be that Castillo did just render the guy unconscious. Looking at all the factors:

First (pretending that MV world is real), although we love to think of Castillo as this “perfect” black-n-white cop (and many times he was), he sometimes had to make drastic decisions. Plus, he was military trained as well, and I have no doubt that in a serious or drastic situation, he would not hesitate to take-out a bad guy to ensure the safety of his fellow officers, the victims involved, as well as himself.

But, the thug was already handcuffed to the car...so he couldn’t run, unless he got loose. He could also honk the horn, flash lights, or something to warn his cohorts inside the house...but, knocking him out would probably prevent that, assuming he wouldn’t come-to, while Castillo & Crockett were still inside the house.

Next, Castillo does not have the right angles, nor has the right positions, to do a “sleeper” move on the guy. He grabs his head and twists/wrenches hard immediately—which would be more of an angle to break the guy’s neck. And with the training Castillo has had in the past with the military, I have no doubt he could break someone’s neck like a rotted twig if needed. 

However, although there is a quick sound (and I do think it’s meant to be a snapping noise...don’t really hear metal clanging or rattling such as his handcuffs moving), it is hard to truly tell what it’s supposed to be? Also, Castillo’s dialogue (as we’ve mentioned before) seems to more indicate putting the punk unconscious. Rather than saying “Goodbye” or “You’re gone”...he says “Goodnight”—which would seem to refer more to making him go to sleep (aka unconscious), rather than actually killing him.

Lastly, when looking up this episode’s synopsis on different sites/webpages, when talking about this scene, many times it will say something like: Castillo then “incapacitates” the bad guy. The term incapacitate usually means preventing someone or something from functioning properly or fully. Although killing the guy would obviously do that , the term doesn’t usually refer to actual death when using it in regards towards a person.

So, although it still seems somewhat questionable or “vague” to me on whether Castillo actually kills the guy or not...there does seem to be more indicators pointing towards him rendering the bad guy unconscious.

But, if this is so, in my opinion it was done somewhat poorly.  They should have had Castillo put his arms around the guys neck and show that he put the sleeper on him, and not make him grab his head, wrench it around like he broke the guys neck, and don’t have a sound involved. But, that’s just me.  

[Robbie C.]

9 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I have just re-watched this scene again...this time in 3 different formats, so-to-speak. I first watched the Blu-ray, then the Universal DVD, and finally on my original NBC airing. Although I still think it’s somewhat questionable...it very well could be that Castillo did just render the guy unconscious. Looking at all the factors:

First (pretending that MV world is real), although we love to think of Castillo as this “perfect” black-n-white cop (and many times he was), he sometimes had to make drastic decisions. Plus, he was military trained as well, and I have no doubt that in a serious or drastic situation, he would not hesitate to take-out a bad guy to ensure the safety of his fellow officers, the victims involved, as well as himself.

But, the thug was already handcuffed to the car...so he couldn’t run, unless he got loose. He could also honk the horn, flash lights, or something to warn his cohorts inside the house...but, knocking him out would probably prevent that, assuming he wouldn’t come-to, while Castillo & Crockett were still inside the house.

Next, Castillo does not have the right angles, nor has the right positions, to do a “sleeper” move on the guy. He grabs his head and twists/wrenches hard immediately—which would be more of an angle to break the guy’s neck. And with the training Castillo has had in the past with the military, I have no doubt he could break someone’s neck like a rotted twig if needed. 

However, although there is a quick sound (and I do think it’s meant to be a snapping noise...don’t really hear metal clanging or rattling such as his handcuffs moving), it is hard to truly tell what it’s supposed to be? Also, Castillo’s dialogue (as we’ve mentioned before) seems to more indicate putting the punk unconscious. Rather than saying “Goodbye” or “You’re gone”...he says “Goodnight”—which would seem to refer more to making him go to sleep (aka unconscious), rather than actually killing him.

Lastly, when looking up this episode’s synopsis on different sites/webpages, when talking about this scene, many times it will say something like: Castillo then “incapacitates” the bad guy. The term incapacitate usually means preventing someone or something from functioning properly or fully. Although killing the guy would obviously do that , the term doesn’t usually refer to actual death when using it in regards towards a person.

So, although it still seems somewhat questionable or “vague” to me on whether Castillo actually kills the guy or not...there does seem to be more indicators pointing towards him rendering the bad guy unconscious.

But, if this is so, in my opinion it was done somewhat poorly.  They should have had Castillo put his arms around the guys neck and show that he put the sleeper on him, and not make him grab his head, wrench it around like he broke the guys neck, and don’t have a sound involved. But, that’s just me.  

He doesn't grab his head and wrench it. He starts with his left hand up near the base of the guy's throat...in a perfect position to hit pressure points or constrict blood flow. And with your "Castillo making drastic decisions" argument...he had done nothing like that by this point in the series. He's not in a position to do a traditional sleeper, but he's also not in a position to break the guy's neck.

[ViceFanMan]

43 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

He doesn't grab his head and wrench it. He starts with his left hand up near the base of the guy's throat...in a perfect position to hit pressure points or constrict blood flow. And with your "Castillo making drastic decisions" argument...he had done nothing like that by this point in the series. He's not in a position to do a traditional sleeper, but he's also not in a position to break the guy's neck.

Again, although we hadn’t “seen” Castillo make any sudden or drastic decisions at this point...we also hadn’t seen him from out behind the desk much yet, either.  

Along with the one scene in the “Golden Triangle” episodes where Castillo takes-out the Tai assassin in the restaurant alley, this episode was one of the first times we truly get to see him in actual action. But, as I said before...pretending MV world was real...we know what training Castillo has had & what he’s done in the past. Later in other episodes, we do get to see him make some more “gray” choices...such as with taking Reese out.

He could totally break the guy’s neck with what he did in this scene...I doubt that’d be a problem at all. But, with everything involved, he could have supposedly made the guy fall unconscious...and that could very well be what was intended in the script. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by ViceFanMan

[Glades]

1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said:

and that could very well be what was intended in the script

In the script there is no such scene. Not at all. Castillo handcuffes the guy. Crockett threatens him. Crockett and Castillo going to the house. Nothing more.

[Robbie C.]

1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said:

Again, although we hadn’t “seen” Castillo make any sudden or drastic decisions at this point...we also hadn’t seen him from out behind the desk much yet, either.  

Along with the one scene in the “Golden Triangle” episodes where Castillo takes-out the Tai assassin in the restaurant alley, this episode was one of the first times we truly get to see him in actual action. But, as I said before...pretending MV world was real...we know what training Castillo has had & what he’s done in the past. Later in other episodes, we do get to see him make some more “gray” choices...such as with taking Reese out.

He could totally break the guy’s neck with what he did in this scene...I doubt that’d be a problem at all. But, with everything involved, he could have supposedly made the guy fall unconscious...and that could very well be what was intended in the script. 

If you want to believe Castillo broke the guy's neck, go for it. However, there's no evidence in the script that was what was intended, and from watching the scene it's not made explicit, either. In fact, available evidence suggests otherwise, and suggests that quite strongly. It may be your belief, but it's not supported by anything we see or that's available publicly to examine.

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

If you want to believe Castillo broke the guy's neck, go for it. However, there's no evidence in the script that was what was intended, and from watching the scene it's not made explicit, either. In fact, available evidence suggests otherwise, and suggests that quite strongly. It may be your belief, but it's not supported by anything we see or that's available publicly to examine.

Before, with what is shown, and how they show it, I have always thought, or assumed Castillo broke the guy’s neck. But, as I’ve said, on closer examination there is the other scenario of Castillo knocking him out.

But, as I have also said, I don’t necessarily think it’s definite...I don’t think definitely one way or the other. There’s “evidence” supporting either way. From what Glades said, I understand the script didn’t even have this scene included...so we can’t go by what it said or had.

However, going with the dialogue & how the scene is described in synopsis on sites, it very likely could be that the guy was made unconscious. It’s just very strangely done. I’m not really sure either way? 

Edited November 29, 2022 by ViceFanMan

[ViceFanMan]

29 minutes ago, Glades said:

In the script there is no such scene. Not at all. Castillo handcuffes the guy. Crockett threatens him. Crockett and Castillo going to the house. Nothing more.

Interesting to know...they must have decided to add that scene when filming, of Castillo taking care of the guy—whether he kills him or renders him unconscious, it makes me wonder why they added it at all? Cool info!