Episode #65 "Knock, Knock...Who's There?

[ViceFanMan]

3 hours ago, Glades said:

I watched this episode again the other day.  I really like it.

But I have a question for the forum members who are personally familiar with the U.S.: Stroh says to Crockett, "Open your palms, Crockett.  I'm nailing you to a cross."

Is that a more common phrase, a saying of some sort? Or is that an unusual, specific phrase?

In the U.S. one also says "amen" as an agreement to a statement, for example. Which is something I've never heard in Germany. In the U.S. it seems to simply have an affirmative meaning (?), in Germany you would think about what the person wants to say in a religious sense.

Both statements have a Christian origin, meaning and/or significance in the U.S. However, over time the phrase “amen” has come to mean you definitely agree with something that’s been said—even if it’s technically not religious in nature. The other statement was being sarcastic in regards to  a figurative (not literal) crucifixion of someone you don’t like. 

[Robbie C.]

5 hours ago, Glades said:

I watched this episode again the other day.  I really like it.

But I have a question for the forum members who are personally familiar with the U.S.: Stroh says to Crockett, "Open your palms, Crockett.  I'm nailing you to a cross."

Is that a more common phrase, a saying of some sort? Or is that an unusual, specific phrase?

In the U.S. one also says "amen" as an agreement to a statement, for example. Which is something I've never heard in Germany. In the U.S. it seems to simply have an affirmative meaning (?), in Germany you would think about what the person wants to say in a religious sense.

The "amen" has its roots, I believe, in the question and response format often seen in Baptist-type church services. The preacher may say something and then ask the congregation if he can get an "amen." Over time it came to represent agreement with someone, often a stronger agreement or one based on principle or moral standing. It's more common in some parts of the country than others, though.

The nailing to the cross line isn't especially common where I'm from, although I have heard it in parts of the US with more Southern roots.

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

3 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

The "amen" has its roots, I believe, in the question and response format often seen in Baptist-type church services. The preacher may say something and then ask the congregation if he can get an "amen." Over time it came to represent agreement with someone, often a stronger agreement or one based on principle or moral standing. It's more common in some parts of the country than others, though.

The nailing to the cross line isn't especially common where I'm from, although I have heard it in parts of the US with more Southern roots.

A brother & sister I work with, Leo & Kimika, they say "Amen" as a phase quite often (when I say something off-the-wall, which I often do, Kimika also says "Oh my lord").

With "Nail you to the cross", I heard my dad (who was born in 1931, if that means anything) say it the most (he'd also say, "I've had it up to here" while putting a flat hand under his chin. He didn't have it too far, as he was only 5'4"), but I've heard it in other places at different times. I do love it when Stroh says that though, and it is around the time when my dad said the phrase quite often (I don't remember him saying the phrase much in the 1990s or 2000s).

 

[ViceFanMan]

“Amen” is directly from the Bible...so a lot of denominations and/or Christian churches have & do use it. However, it’s also widely used (at least in the U.S.) as a way to seriously agree with something or someone. 

“Nailing someone to a cross” also is in reference to crucifixions & specifically Jesus...however, again in more recent times it’s more a sarcastic or angry way of letting someone know you’re coming after them. 

[Glades]

5 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

The "amen" has its roots, I believe, in the question and response format often seen in Baptist-type church services. The preacher may say something and then ask the congregation if he can get an "amen." Over time it came to represent agreement with someone, often a stronger agreement or one based on principle or moral standing. It's more common in some parts of the country than others, though.

 

57 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

“Amen” is directly from the Bible...so a lot of denominations and/or Christian churches have & do use it. However, it’s also widely used (at least in the U.S.) as a way to seriously agree with something or someone. 

“Nailing someone to a cross” also is in reference to crucifixions & specifically Jesus...however, again in more recent times it’s more a sarcastic or angry way of letting someone know you’re coming after them. 

 

1 hour ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

Kimika also says "Oh my lord

 I´m Catholic. So of course I know " amen." But only in the context of a church service, not in conversations outside of a church service. Also such question - response rituals I did`t know . Very interesting!
"Nail to a cross" I didn't know as a saying at all. Neither in nor outside the church. O.K., so that's a saying too. Knowing that definitely helps me understand the scene. Thank you very much.

In our country, there are or were also such expressions as "Oh my God!" (still relatively common, even among young people), "crucifix" as a swear word (of course, it is actually not "allowed", nowadays rather rare). If you want to wish someone good health you used to say "Help you God!"
There is also a saying: "That is as certain as the Amen in the church. (if something will happen for sure).
In Southern Germany and Austria, we say "Grüß Gott" as a formal greeting, I suppose, that`s nowadays by far the most common way to name "god" in daily life.

[ViceFanMan]

6 minutes ago, Glades said:

 

 

 I´m Catholic. So of course I know " amen." But only in the context of a church service, not in conversations outside of a church service. Also such question - response rituals I did`t know . Very interesting!
"Nail to a cross" I didn't know as a saying at all. Neither in nor outside the church. O.K., so that's a saying too. Knowing that definitely helps me understand the scene. Thank you very much.

In our country, there are or were also such expressions as "Oh my God!" (still relatively common, even among young people), "crucifix" as a swear word (of course, it is actually not "allowed", nowadays rather rare). If you want to wish someone good health you used to say "Help you God!"
There is also a saying: "That is as certain as the Amen in the church. (if something will happen for sure).
In Southern Germany and Austria, we say "Grüß Gott" as a formal greeting, I suppose, that`s nowadays by far the most common way to name "god" in daily life.

Nailed to a cross isn’t used as often anymore. But amen is, and sadly “oh my god” is also. I’m a very strong Christian so I don’t like or approve of that one, as it’s directly taking God’s name in vain, but sadly the majority of society uses it any way. 

[Glades]

33 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

I’m a very strong Christian so I don’t like or approve of that one, as it’s directly taking God’s name in vain

I can understand you well. I don't like such a thoughtless "Oh my God" very much either.
But there are expressions that I like. For example, my mum used to say to me (and others) "God help you" when I had to sneeze. That was like a little prayer for me and I felt somehow protected.

[ViceFanMan]

12 minutes ago, Glades said:

I can understand you well. I don't like such a thoughtless "Oh my God" very much either.
But there are expressions that I like. For example, my mum used to say to me (and others) "God help you" when I had to sneeze. That was like a little prayer for me and I felt somehow protected.

Yeah, there are several expressions out there that include ‘god’ in them, but I personally try and not use them. We say “bless you” when people sneeze. 

[Dadrian]

This episode should have ended with Crockett setting a dozen eggs and a straw on Stroh’s desk and walking out. 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Dadrian

[Tom]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Dadrian:

This episode should have ended with Crockett setting a dozen eggs and a straw on Stroh’s desk and walking out. 

.. .and placing a small cross next to it!

[Mr. Vigilante]

.....and right before we freeze frame on the credits

 

[Miami Beau]

14 hours ago, Dadrian said:

This episode should have ended with Crockett setting a dozen eggs and a straw on Stroh’s desk and walking out. 

Yes, or at least Sonny handing him a straw as he walks off. It’s a great line from Sonny, I love his sinister delivery when he says it. 
Sonny actually used this line twice within the series but by season 4 it was dropped. They should of continued and made it a catchphrase of sorts. Also we needed more Stroh in the series. Early season 4 looked promising but that got dropped too. Would of been cool to of seen Stroh replace the Walter Mills character in both Vote Of Confidence and Bad Timing to continue on this fued. 

[RedDragon86]

It's doesn't make sense that Montoyo was arrested at the beginning, why would the DEA alert Metro-Dade after ripping them off and highlighting the fact that it happened by doing so.

Plus no raid no drugs. This was poorly written.

Edited June 4, 2023 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

5 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

It's doesn't make sense that Montoyo was arrested at the beginning, why would the DEA alert Metro-Dade after ripping them off and highlighting the fact that it happened by doing so.

Plus no raid no drugs. This was poorly written.

It wasn’t the DEA that did the raid on Montoya...it was Linda’s own rogue group “posing” as DEA agents. They didn’t give a crap about the OCB or Metro/Dade...or the real DEA for that matter. They were there to rip off the drugs & money (secretly by Linda's orders to get money to save her son’s life). It actually is a fairly well written episode, and a very noir-ish one. 

[RedDragon86]

9 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

It wasn’t the DEA that did the raid on Montoya...it was Linda’s own rogue group “posing” as DEA agents. They didn’t give a crap about the OCB or Metro/Dade...or the real DEA for that matter. They were there to rip off the drugs & money (secretly by Linda's orders to get money to save her son’s life). It actually is a fairly well written episode, and a very noir-ish one. 

 

Then how did Montoya get arrested? the DEA were fake and Sonny and Rico were undercover. 

His arrest at the beginning was a major flaw.

Edited June 4, 2023 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

23 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

 

Then how did Montoya get arrested then? the DEA were fake and Sonny and Rico were undercover. 

His arrest at the beginning was a major flaw.

In all honesty it’s been a while since I’ve watched this one. I don’t remember him getting arrested at the very beginning? However, if it was by the OCB, it might have been because they didn’t understand the rip-off anymore than Montoya did & they felt they needed to go ahead and tip their hand  and try & find out what the heck was going on. They may have thought Montoya was in on it some way.

Edited June 4, 2023 by ViceFanMan

[RedDragon86]

8 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

In all honesty it’s been a while since I’ve watched this one. I don’t remember him getting arrested at the very beginning? However, if it was by the OCB, it might have been because they didn’t understand the rip-off anymore than Montoya did & they felt they needed to go ahead and tip their hand  and try & find out what the heck was going on. They may have thought Montoya was in on it some way.

Realistically he wouldn't have got questioned at all as Sonny and Rico wouldn't want blow their cover. Even Sonny said to Marty that he didn't want the 2 months undercover work to get blown when they were about to kick him loose.

I just don't understand who issued his arrest warrant. 

[Tom]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb RedDragon86:

 

Then how did Montoya get arrested? the DEA were fake and Sonny and Rico were undercover. 

His arrest at the beginning was a major flaw.

It was no flaw. In the beginning the wrong DEA guys called Metro Dade for support on the radio and even told them how many suspects (5) to take into custody. That is shown a few seconds into the episode and made the DEA action look official ! MD arrested Montoya, so that Crockett and Tubbs could keep their cover. But as no seized drugs were found at (real) DEA for evidence Montoya had to be released.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Tom

[fakespyder]

Vice didn't know at first that the DEA raid was run by fake agents. Vice was stalling for time, keeping Montoya in custody with bureaucratic hoops, while they tried to get the evidence back from the DEA. Little did they know that it was not actually the DEA.

Being that Sonny and Rico could testify to the presence of drugs, (Tubbs tested some too), there was good reason to try to keep Montoya in custody for a time. But eventually, without the actual drugs, they had to let him go.

Montoya knew this, which is why he was so smug sitting in the interrogation room.

[RedDragon86]

17 hours ago, fakespyder said:

Vice didn't know at first that the DEA raid was run by fake agents. Vice was stalling for time, keeping Montoya in custody with bureaucratic hoops, while they tried to get the evidence back from the DEA. Little did they know that it was not actually the DEA.

Being that Sonny and Rico could testify to the presence of drugs, (Tubbs tested some too), there was good reason to try to keep Montoya in custody for a time. But eventually, without the actual drugs, they had to let him go.

Montoya knew this, which is why he was so smug sitting in the interrogation room.

But why would the phony DEA even alert and connect with Metro-Dade? what was their advantage in that.  

Wouldn't it have been better for Montoya to get up and walked out of that nightclub without getting questioned.

Edited June 5, 2023 by RedDragon86

[Robbie C.]

It's TV, after all...

But in theory agencies try to deconflict their operations whenever possible or practical. If nothing else it prevents blue on blue incidents. In other instances the outside agency might not have the manpower to make an arrest, or even lack the authority to do so.

[fakespyder]

Like @Robbie C. says, it's TV...

Criminals are less inclined to resist against cops versus dealers. Montoya never is suspected by the dealers he rips off. Dealers put it down to the price of business and are just grateful to escape jail.

If Montoya wants to deal with people he's ripping off in the future then it is in his interest to play along and get arrested with them when the real police show up. He knows they wont be able to hold him or the people he ripped off because there's no evidence.

In this case , he didn't factor in that the dealers he ripped off were undercover cops.

But, yeah. It's all TV logic I suppose.

[Tom]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb RedDragon86:

But why would the phony DEA even alert and connect with Metro-Dade? what was their advantage in that.  

Wouldn't it have been better for Montoya to get up and walked out of that nightclub without getting questioned.

The advantage was that the phony operation became obvious much later as it looked very real early on by this doctored interdepartmental cooperation.

Without requesting Metro Dade support in taking 5 people (incl. Crockett&Tubbs) into custody it would have been clear from the get that the DEA was fake - the "agents" would have left without arresting anyone. So it took many hours more (getting C&C out of Miami PD, asking DEA formally about the drug seizure, ....) and the phony agents were long gone in the wind. They simply won many hours to get away....

[Tom]

I posted the production notes of this episode in the location section. In many episodes they filmed remarkable scenes that were cut before airing. In this episode they filmed 3 scenes on the last day that were all cut. See the details and the script to see what never made it on the air.

On this day 3 scenes were filmed that were cut and not aired (proof that they were filmed is on the daily production sheet I have). Scene 12 is the first scene after teaser in the script. Castillo has to bail out Crockett&Tubbs from the arrest in the teaser. This scene was probably cut as it is not advancing the story and not really needed.

The other two scenes would have made a difference. Scene 103A/B comes after the miranda reading to Colby at Calle Ocho (that is the end on TV. In the script Crockett tells somebody else to read her rights, on TV he is doing it) and shows how the VICE team is mocking IAD guy Stroh after the successful Montoya bust that proved C&T innocent. Stroh does not give up and threatens Crockett that he will get him some day. 

Then scene 105A was filmed and cut. In the shooting script this would have been the last scene of the episode. Chuck Colby arrives at police parking lot and insults Crockett for having busted his wife. He asks how he and his son are supposed to live without her. I think these two last scenes would have made that ending more spicy. They are not absolutely necessery, but the episode gets a much stronger consequence with it and looks a bit diluted and stripped once you know that they cut both scenes in LA. after filming. 

[ViceFanMan]

28 minutes ago, Tom said:

I posted the production notes of this episode in the location section. In many episodes they filmed remarkable scenes that were cut before airing. In this episode they filmed 3 scenes on the last day that were all cut. See the details and the script to see what never made it on the air.

On this day 3 scenes were filmed that were cut and not aired (proof that they were filmed is on the daily production sheet I have). Scene 12 is the first scene after teaser in the script. Castillo has to bail out Crockett&Tubbs from the arrest in the teaser. This scene was probably cut as it is not advancing the story and not really needed.

The other two scenes would have made a difference. Scene 103A/B comes after the miranda reading to Colby at Calle Ocho (that is the end on TV. In the script Crockett tells somebody else to read her rights, on TV he is doing it) and shows how the VICE team is mocking IAD guy Stroh after the successful Montoya bust that proved C&T innocent. Stroh does not give up and threatens Crockett that he will get him some day. 

Then scene 105A was filmed and cut. In the shooting script this would have been the last scene of the episode. Chuck Colby arrives at police parking lot and insults Crockett for having busted his wife. He asks how he and his son are supposed to live without her. I think these two last scenes would have made that ending more spicy. They are not absolutely necessery, but the episode gets a much stronger consequence with it and looks a bit diluted and stripped once you know that they cut both scenes in LA. after filming. 

Interesting info…I wish they’d of left the scenes in.  I also wish they could have been included as say outtakes in “bonus/special features” when the show was released to home video.

But, since original uncut airings weren’t even used for official releases, things like deleted scenes probably weren’t even remembered/considered/or thought of.