Episode #55 "Forgive Us Our Debts"

[Mr. Vigilante]

46 minutes ago, apocalypse said:

I think this was problem comes from that when you squeeze a movie length plot (which is very deep) to 46 minutes. There simply isn't enough time to develop these character traits properly.

True.  What would've been pretty epic is if they had started S3 like the previous seasons with a 2-parter, then upped the ante and ended the season with a 90 minute "Forgive Us Our Debts".  More development, more action, any maybe more flashbacks.

[Larry2904]

Forgive us our Debts is probably the best in S3 for me.

Everything from the plot to the acting and specially the ending where Sonny realizes he's ben had.

The followup, Deliver us from Evil is also simply phenomenal.

Solid 9/10.

[ViceFanMan]

Frank Hackman...probably MV’s most evil criminal! I’m not exactly sure, but during this episode I felt that maybe even Hackman wasn't sure his plan to manipulate Crockett into getting him released would work...but it was his last, desperate attempt to get off.

In reality I seriously doubt this would have happened...but in the world of "MV", anything is possible.  The music was superb in this one, and the song selections were perfect with the situation and episode!

Hackman was the perfect psychopathic sociopath, with no conscience or feeling on right or wrong...just evil, and who got-off on causing pain, terror, and committing violence.  I love the past Crockett has with him and how they incorporate it with the present, & how they introduce Hackman. 

The ending to me is very "Hitchcockian", and is kind of a shocking twist the first time you see it...and you realize you've been ‘taken’ along with Crockett. I love twists you don't see coming and/or things that surprise you or get your attention. It also basically let you know that at some point Hackman would be back.

This is a very "deep", tragic, but captivating, awesome episode—and everyone gave fantastic, superb performances!  I really like this one and I originally gave it an 8, but I think I’d bump it up to a 9 if I could. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[apocalypse]

I also want to add that Meat Loaf's "Standing on the outside" is a chilling tune and matches perfectly with the Gus Albierro murder scene.

Such an underrated song from an underrated album (Blind Before I Stop).

This episode is pure masterpiece from start to finish.

[Jack Gretsky]

One of the best Season 3 episodes.  Crockett is really played for a sucker by Hackman.  Barkley, Felicia and Hackman riding off at the end practically jeering Sonny is frustrating as hell.  There had better be a follow-up story to this.  Oh, there is one?  Good! 

Most affecting is Val Bisoglio as Gus Albierro.  I know Bisoglio from light-hearted roles, so it was impressive to see him rise to the dramatic challenge.  D.W. Moffett is slick as the lawyer more concerned with winning an election than serving than law. (Although he's dead right in referring to Hackman as a "maggot".) "You're a politician - a conscience is optional!" Yup.  More true now than ever.  Luke Halpin as Sonny's former partner is also excellent in the flashback teaser, conjuring a decent cop and family man in just a couple of minutes time.   

You almost wish Vice had used even more Peter Gabriel songs than they did - his material always lifts whichever scenes they are used in such as "We Do What We're Told" does.  I'm not a Meat Loaf fan, but "Standing on the Outside" works effectively too. 

EDIT - I just read the other entries on this thread.  Dang, everyone else writes so much more articulately than I did.  I suck at these!  lol. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Jack Gretsky

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

1 hour ago, Jack Gretsky said:

One of the best Season 3 episodes.  Crockett is really played for a sucker by Hackman.  Barkley, Felicia and Hackman riding off at the end practically jeering Sonny is frustrating as hell.  There had better be a follow-up story to this.  Oh, there is one?  Good! 

Most affecting is Val Bisoglio as Gus Albierro.  I know Bisoglio from light-hearted roles, so it was impressive to see him rise to the dramatic challenge.  D.W. Moffett is slick as the lawyer more concerned with winning an election than serving than law. (Although he's dead right in referring to Hackman as a "maggot".) "You're a politician - a conscience is optional!" Yup.  More true now than ever.  Luke Halpin as Sonny's former partner is also excellent in the flashback teaser, conjuring a decent cop and family man in just a couple of minutes time.   

You almost wish Vice had used even more Peter Gabriel songs than they did - his material always lifts whichever scenes they are used in such as "We Do What We're Told" does.  I'm not a Meat Loaf fan, but "Standing on the Outside" works effectively too. 

EDIT - I just read the other entries on this thread.  Dang, everyone else writes so much more articulately than I did.  I suck at these!  lol. 

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of us have been taunted like Crockett was at the end (at least I have, but of course in safer situations); I felt for him in that spot (then again, Crockett had feelings that I could get behind).

Yeah, D.W. Moffett's Waldman was a bit pompous (I liked his Michael character in 1987's "Black Widow" though, and how he was crushing hard on Debra Winger's Alex), but I think he should've become attorney general simply on the merits of sniffing out Hackman so well, even if it was purely motivated by self-interest (sounds like an accurate portrayal of a politician to me); I mean seriously, it isn't a good idea to have a fella like Hackman running around!

Nah Jack Gretsky, I think you did well expressing yourself in your post. Plus, I like how you admired Trudy's roller skating beauty in 'Bushido' (she had the better assignment in that spot than Gina, for sure); you are truly The Great One!

[Jack Gretsky]

 

6 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of us have been taunted like Crockett was at the end (at least I have, but of course in safer situations); I felt for him in that spot (then again, Crockett had feelings that I could get behind).

Yeah, D.W. Moffett's Waldman was a bit pompous (I liked his Michael character in 1987's "Black Widow" though, and how he was crushing hard on Debra Winger's Alex), but I think he should've become attorney general simply on the merits of sniffing out Hackman so well, even if it was purely motivated by self-interest (sounds like an accurate portrayal of a politician to me); I mean seriously, it isn't a good idea to have a fella like Hackman running around!

Nah Jack Gretsky, I think you did well expressing yourself in your post. Plus, I like how you admired Trudy's roller skating beauty in 'Bushido' (she had the better assignment in that spot than Gina, for sure); you are truly The Great One!

Thank you, Eillio.  The problem with doing this MV marathon is that I'm watching so many episodes in a row that sometimes I run out of fresh adjectives and phrases!  

I forgot that Moffett was in Black Widow - that's a good thriller with Winger and Russell. 

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

Just now, Jack Gretsky said:

 

Thank you, Eillio.  The problem with doing this MV marathon is that I'm watching so many episodes in a row that sometimes I run out of fresh adjectives and phrases!  

I forgot that Moffett was in Black Widow - that's a good thriller with Winger and Russell. 

You're doing a Vice marathon? That's awesome! When I recorded episodes of the show in 2011-'12, I ended up having at least one Vice binge a year (up to 2019) and had a blast doing it. Yeah, there's a lot of good there and plenty of content, so it's easy enough to run out of descriptive words.

"Black Widow" is an all-time favorite of mine; my father recorded it for me when I was a kid ("Son, you SURE you want me to record this?"- I mean, it's a little complex for a 10-year-old, but I loved it then) and really got back into it in the late 2000's when I re-recorded it. I don't know, the film's tension, the cat-and-mouse game, the erotic subtext between Winger & Russell...I just can't get enough of it, like Vice in a way!

[Jack Gretsky]

26 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

You're doing a Vice marathon? That's awesome! When I recorded episodes of the show in 2011-'12, I ended up having at least one Vice binge a year (up to 2019) and had a blast doing it. Yeah, there's a lot of good there and plenty of content, so it's easy enough to run out of descriptive words.

"Black Widow" is an all-time favorite of mine; my father recorded it for me when I was a kid ("Son, you SURE you want me to record this?"- I mean, it's a little complex for a 10-year-old, but I loved it then) and really got back into it in the late 2000's when I re-recorded it. I don't know, the film's tension, the cat-and-mouse game, the erotic subtext between Winger & Russell...I just can't get enough of it, like Vice in a way!

Last year I bought the Mill Creek complete Miami Vice set and watched all of them then, doing a few scattered reviews on this forum.  This year I wanted to repeat the marathon, but this time doing a write-up of each and every episode, even the lackluster ones.  One problem is that my reactions aren't as fresh as they were last year (for instance, I couldn't recall how "Forgive Us Our Debts" ended, so I was a bit shocked seeing it a year ago - when re-watching it today I, of course, knew the outcome in advance, so it had less of an impact), but the excellent qualities of MV still hold up, fortunately.  

Also during last year and this, I watched a batch of 1980s-1990s neo-noir/erotic thrillers/suspense films; Black Widow was one of them.  I hadn't seen that for years.  

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, Jack Gretsky said:

 

Thank you, Eillio.  The problem with doing this MV marathon is that I'm watching so many episodes in a row that sometimes I run out of fresh adjectives and phrases!  

I forgot that Moffett was in Black Widow - that's a good thriller with Winger and Russell. 

Lol...I ran into this issue the times I’ve done a complete series marathon. I get started watching the episodes, and I can’t stop! Pretty soon I binge-watch to the point of I have so many reviews to try and do that it’s almost overwhelming, lol! 

I first did some reviews of the episodes back in 2010, then I came back three years later in 2013 and did the rest of the reviews then. I’ve gone through the show a couple times since then, but not done anymore or new reviews until this year.  

This year I wanted to do all new reviews for all of the episodes, and see if any of my views or thoughts had changed at all. Good portions or pieces of my original reviews I used again as I still felt the same, but there were some changes or things I added or took out. But, yes...sometimes it’s hard to think up new adjectives or phrases to use, and I end up using the same ones over and over again, lol! 

I have the Universal DVDs, and I recently got the Mill Creek Blu-ray Compete Series set...so, it’s been fun watching the episodes on that. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[apocalypse]

Meat Loaf's "Standing on the Outside" fits perfectly to this episode too.

As I've said before this is my favorite episode of Miami Vice period. Of all episodes. 

Just amazing plot and there was not even one bad actor. The bearded guy who plays Barkley was good in this one, while he terribly overacted in his crazy doctor role in The Big Thaw.

The guy who played Gus Albierro was excellent too.

[johnnyfarragut]

Lots of bitter endings in Vice, but this one's in a league of its own.

Peter Gabriel's supersad 'We Do What We're Told' is a perfect fit. 

The screenplay:

miami vice-forgive us our debts.pdf

[Matt5]

2 minutes ago, johnnyfarragut said:

Lots of bitter endings in Vice, but this one's in a league of its own.

Peter Gabriel's supersad 'We Do What We're Told' is a perfect fit. 

The screenplay:

miami vice-forgive us our debts.pdf 1.4 MB · 0 downloads

Yes it’s a real hook - beautifully done. 

[Tom]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb johnnyfarragut:

Lots of bitter endings in Vice, but this one's in a league of its own.

Peter Gabriel's supersad 'We Do What We're Told' is a perfect fit. 

The screenplay:

miami vice-forgive us our debts.pdf 1.4 MB · 0 downloads

The story by Gustave Reininger and the execution by female director Jan Eliasberg and others e.g. music selection by Fred Lyle is a masterpiece.

Lots of substance, important topics to discuss (penalty, police brutality, double jeopardy - even if it was proven that Hackman did it they could not have sentenced or jailed him a second time, D.A. rather concerned about marketing than about justice, guilt, ...), great characters and, last but not least, a great reason why Crockett was involved in this case at all (he caught Hackman in the first place and feels responsible). 

If you compare this to other stories in episodes like Free Verse (e.g. not logical why undercover VICE cops protect a poet and pose in front of TV cameras and reporters as security detail) or Florence Italy (why VICE works on a homicide?) than this clearly is a gem - as most 3rd season episodes.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Tom

[johnnyfarragut]

Screenplay:

miami vice-forgive us our debts.pdf

[fakespyder]

thanks for these @johnnyfarragut

[RedDragon86]

My problem with with this mainly is the scene where Barkley's and his girlfriend are working at fast food van and at the same time he lives in a luxury home? I can't imagine them slaving away day in day out frying onions and cooking hot dogs, not sure they would agree with doing that.

Also the testarossa is just laying there right in front of it? it might as well have a neon Vice sign on the reg.

That was a poorly constructed scene in my opinion.

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by RedDragon86

[ViceFanMan]

56 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

My problem with with this mainly is the scene where Barkley's and his girlfriend are working at fast food van and at the same time he lives in a luxury home? I can't imagine them slaving away day in day out frying onions and cooking hot dogs, not sure they would agree with doing that.

Also the testarossa is just laying there right in front of it? it might as well have a neon Vice sign on the reg.

That was a poorly constructed scene in my opinion.

 

The Venus Clam Trap “roach coach” traveling truck & the luxury home were provided by the FBI, as they were in the Witness Protection Program. I don’t think Barkley or his girlfriend paid for any of it.

Most older shows have surveillance & watching people a little unrealistic…as they’re very close & obvious. But, that’s for our (viewers) benefit…so we can see what’s all going on. Supposedly in the episode they are not that obvious.

[RedDragon86]

8 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

The Venus Clam Trap “roach coach” traveling truck & the luxury home were provided by the FBI, as they were in the Witness Protection Program. I don’t think Barkley or his girlfriend paid for any of it.

Most older shows have surveillance & watching people a little unrealistic…as they’re very close & obvious. But, that’s for our (viewers) benefit…so we can see what’s all going on. Supposedly in the episode they are not that obvious.

In the series they have never blatantly watched someone like that, for example in Home Invaders they were so careful that they held back and didn't turn a corner.

As for the place of employment, I don't think they would have agreed to work there day in day out in the first place, a jewellery store would have been better fit.

The reason they wrote that in was to cut a convenient corner as Stan knows all about those places, it was sloppy writing  imo. The girlfriend wouldn't advertise it as well.

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

In the series they have never blatantly watched someone like that, for example in Home Invaders they were so careful that they held back and didn't turn a corner.

As for the place of employment, I don't think they would have agreed to work there day in day out in the first place, a jewellery store would have been better fit.

The reason they wrote that in was to cut a convenient corner as Stan knows all about those places, it was sloppy writing  imo. The girlfriend wouldn't advertise it as well.

They don’t get to choose the place of employment…it’s usually what the FBI sets up, and usually for specific reasons. That part may have been written to include an area of Stan’s past for the episode, but high profile or well known in certain area jobs are not usually what people in the Witness Protection Program get assigned to do. They will get lower profile, or more “unimportant” jobs & identities on purpose.

Surveillance on TV or in the movies is hardly ever realistic…there will be inaccuracies for various reasons, usually for entertainment purposes & to help create action scenes. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by ViceFanMan

[RedDragon86]

8 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

They don’t get to choose the place of employment…it’s usually what the FBI sets up, and usually for specific reasons. That part may have been written to include an area of Stan’s past for the episode, but high profile or well known in certain area jobs are not usually what people in the Witness Protection Program get assigned to do. They will get lower profile, or more “unimportant” jobs & identities on purpose.

Surveillance on TV or in the movies is hardly ever realistic…there will be inaccuracies for various reasons, usually for entertainment purposes & to help create action scenes. 

Even so I don't think it was a good idea to give a protected witness, who is supposed to be dead such an exposed job, somebody would recognize him.

Something about that place of work doesn't fit.

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said:

Even so I don't think it was a good idea to give a protected witness, who is supposed to be dead such an exposed job, somebody would recognize him.

Something about that place of work doesn't fit.

I think, supposedly in the episode, they had them in a city or area where no one would recognize or know them. Especially doing a lower profile, menial job as a roving food truck.

Lots of times people in the Witness Protection Program have new identities & jobs. They just usually aren’t high profile, or highly exposed ones.

And that particular company of roving food trucks was known to be in that area regularly (as Switek pointed out)…so whoever was working them wouldn’t be considered suspicious or strange.

However, agents are still on call & monitor the person or people in case someone does recognize them, or finds them if they found out the person/s is still alive.