Episode #45 "When Irish Eyes Are Crying"

[ViceFanMan]

Original NBC promo for the start of Season 3...even advertising a “new look”:

[RedDragon86]

This song would have been a nice fit, maybe the end song.

Edited May 11, 2021 by RedDragon86

[wolfie1996]

On 9/2/2019 at 7:01 PM, RedDragon86 said:

I still think this episode is OK but I wish it was done a little bit differently, removing the love angle. Like it was much more focused on the IRA.

6/10

Actually I would've thought the IRA was a touchy subject to be making MV episodes about, given , as has already been mentioned, the support (especially financially) from Irish- Americans to that group, which as far as I've known,were generally accepted as a terrorist organisation. I don't expect something made in the UK but also intended for the USA market would be treading on that sort of ground (such as expressing  some sympathy with say the perpetrators of 9/11) whereas it was pretty clear Sonny and co. weren't totally anti IRA. Maybe it needed terrorism to come nearer to home for the USA to fully appreciate its threat. Even though Caroon was revealed as a bad guy eventually, the "English" agent (what a terrible accent!!) was portrayed very unsympathetically also and naturally was written as someone equally guilty in the end. What is it about villains having English accents by the way? I can only think of Giles (in Buffy) as  one who didn't qualify  So maybe the rather forced romance angle was intended to be a sub-plot and water down the political side of it, which as I say was treading on thin ice. Other than that, an OK episode, though I wasn't overwhelmed  with the new look  Sonny, hair too short and clothes pretty unattractive. Blowing up the Daytona definitely made an impact (and not just on it!) I'd come to really like that car! I agree RedDragon, a 6/10 it is.

[vicegirl85]

I don't think MV shied away from touchy subjects.  Perhaps they were sometimes handled with an outlook slanted in one direction, as this one may have been. 

However one-sided and negatively the British agent was portrayed, ultimately it was also shown that the IRA (as personified by Carroon) and its American backers were willing to sacrifice innocent lives to make a statement.  Definitely at the time the IRA was widely considered a terrorist organization (by the mainstream US news outlets and publications), although (as it seemed at the time) it was also trying to reform its image (at least) into one that was willing and ready to participate in peaceful political processes to promote change. 

My reaction was that Sonny was offended that the British agent was trying to tell the Miami law enforcement agency how to run an operation, and also trying to get them to keep Gina in the dark about Carroon's purposes.  I do think there was a perception in the US (with a valid background) that the Catholic majority of Northern Ireland had been oppressed by the British government for many years (that doesn't excuse terrorism on the part of the IRA).  So in his resentment of the foreign agent trying to take over the operation and tell them what to do, he voiced that common feeling. 

Carroon at the time was trying to portray himself as rejecting the violence of the past and promoting only peaceful reforms.  Castillo, Sonny, and the rest of the squad weren't so gullible that they just swallowed that one whole, but they also weren't going to abandon one of their own.

 

[wolfie1996]

3 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

I don't think MV shied away from touchy subjects.  Perhaps they were sometimes handled with an outlook slanted in one direction, as this one may have been. 

However one-sided and negatively the British agent was portrayed, ultimately it was also shown that the IRA (as personified by Carroon) and its American backers were willing to sacrifice innocent lives to make a statement.  Definitely at the time the IRA was widely considered a terrorist organization (by the mainstream US news outlets and publications), although (as it seemed at the time) it was also trying to reform its image (at least) into one that was willing and ready to participate in peaceful political processes to promote change. 

My reaction was that Sonny was offended that the British agent was trying to tell the Miami law enforcement agency how to run an operation, and also trying to get them to keep Gina in the dark about Carroon's purposes.  I do think there was a perception in the US (with a valid background) that the Catholic majority of Northern Ireland had been oppressed by the British government for many years (that doesn't excuse terrorism on the part of the IRA).  So in his resentment of the foreign agent trying to take over the operation and tell them what to do, he voiced that common feeling. 

Carroon at the time was trying to portray himself as rejecting the violence of the past and promoting only peaceful reforms.  Castillo, Sonny, and the rest of the squad weren't so gullible that they just swallowed that one whole, but they also weren't going to abandon one of their own.

 

I was quite relieved to see the plot play out eventually showing Carroon as the villain!  Though I see they couldn't resist tarring the MI5 guy with the same brush!By the way is there a Catholic majority in Northern Ireland?"While in the 2011 census 84.2% of people in the Republic of Ireland identified themselves as Catholic in the 2011 census in Northern Ireland only 40.8% identified themselves as Catholic." From the  2011 census. I'd have thought they'd have a different government in there if they were and obviously they weren't. Do you have personal or actual knowledge of  how the Catholic people were "oppressed" or is this just hearsay? Do you think the UK really wanted to waste time, money and lives on this war without good reason? The only reason the IRA started talking politics  with the UK instead of violence was because their money from the USA was drying up and they weren't getting the necessary financial support. I expect you wouldn't be too happy if substantial funds were coming from the UK population to support terrorists in the USA. ( I have no axe to grind at all with the issue,by the way, couldn't care less  if Ireland reunites. My next door neighbour comes from southern Ireland, he's a pharmacist, and we get on really well.) As for tackling sensitive topics, you're right  in that quite a few were featured in the MV plots. Though never the coloured/ racist topic so popular today.....Who was the "one of their own" Castillo and co weren't going to abandon? Not Carroon  anyway, surely.

[Tommy Vercetti]

The Catholics in the North weren't really oppressed as such but many were senselessy killed for absolutely no reason by the British army. Bloody Sunday 1972 (14 people killed) and the Ballymurphy massacre 1971 (9 people killed). were pivotal events that escalated the Troubles and fuelled anti-British sentiment among the Catholics in the North.

There was also the Shankill Butchers. A gang of Ulster loyalists including Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) men. They abducted, tortured and killed at least 23 Catholics in Belfast. The Catholics did suffer terribly in a 30 year conflict.

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Tommy Vercetti

[wolfie1996]

6 minutes ago, Tommy Vercetti said:

The Catholics in the North weren't really oppressed as such but many were senselessy killed for absolutely no reason by the British. Bloody Sunday 1972 (14 people killed) and the Ballymurphy massacre 1971 (9 people killed). were pivotal events that escalated the Troubles and fuelled anti-British sentiment among the Catholics in the North.

There was also the Shankill Butchers. A gang of Ulster loyalists including Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) men. They abducted, tortured and killed at least 23 Catholics in Belfast. The Catholics did suffer terribly in a 30 year conflict.

 

Can you give us the figures for those "senselessly killed" by the IRA  too, including kidnappees, people they  thought were "informers" (including women) and those killed (who had nothing to do with the conflict) via bombing premises? And this could have been brought to an end decades before it was (as indeed  did happen once the IRA were running out of money.)

[Tommy Vercetti]

Not all Catholics in the North were in the IRA and not all Catholics killed in the conflict were in the IRA. The Catholics killed in Ballymurphy, Bloody Sunday and by the Shankill Butchers were all civilians. Those are the facts. Why put senselessly killed in quotes? Those people were senselessly killed. Last week Boris Johnson acknowledged the atrocity of Ballymurphy and said sorry for it. I don't condone or support the IRA or their actions but these events galvanised the Catholics and many joined the IRA in the early seventies and the Troubles were kicked into high gear.
The IRA are scum, of course.

The conflict was also elongated by British governments, particularly Thatcher, refusing to discuss peaceful solutions with the Catholics at all. They wouldn't talk to Sinn Fein. There was a period when Gerry Adams voice was banned from being heard on British TV and was dubbed in news reports. This was understandable on their part as they said they refused to negotiate with terrorists. That's their prerogative. It was Blair (a war criminal that I hate) that started really negotiating with Sinn Fein and this led to a peaceful ceasefire.

I'm Irish. From Southern Ireland.

Uh-oh, this is turning into a situation Ferrariman doesn't like.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Tommy Vercetti

[wolfie1996]

1 hour ago, Tommy Vercetti said:

Not all Catholics in the North were in the IRA and not all Catholics killed in the conflict were in the IRA. The Catholics killed in Ballymurphy, Bloody Sunday and by the Shankill Butchers were all civilians. Those are the facts. Why put senselessly killed in quotes? Those people were senselessly killed. Last week Boris Johnson acknowledged the atrocity of Ballymurphy and said sorry for it. I don't condone or support the IRA or their actions but these events galvanised the Catholics and many joined the IRA in the early seventies and the Troubles were kicked into high gear.

The conflict was also elongated by British governments, particularly Thatcher, refusing to discuss peaceful solutions with the Catholics at all. They wouldn't talk to Sinn Fein. There was a period when Gerry Adams voice was banned from being heard on British TV and was dubbed in news reports. This was understandable on their part as they said they refused to negotiate with terrorists. That's their prerogative. It was Blair (a war criminal that I hate) that started really negotiating with Sinn Fein and this led to a peaceful ceasefire.

I'm Irish. From Southern Ireland.

Uh-oh, this is turning into a situation Ferrariman doesn't like.

Why am I not surprised you're southern Irish? I was quoting YOU with the "senseless killing" as you used the phrase first. Let's see your statistics for people the IRA equally "senselessly killed" such as the civilians  blown up by planted bombs. How many people "disappeared" and were tortured and killed as suspected informers? Sinn Fein were nothing but a bunch of murderers. Yet I see they've managed to become respectable  with the assistance of that very British government you're so keen to criticise. The only thing I agree with you on is your opinion of Bandwagon Blair, the war criminal. And as I say the only reason the IRA decided to cease operations (if indeed they have) is because they ran out of funds.

[Tommy Vercetti]

Peace was achieved in the North through negotiation between the North and British governments. The North has been largely peaceful for over 20 years now. The first ceasefire was on the 25th anniversary of the conflict when the then Irish Prime Minister acted as mediator on behalf of the Catholics in the North and negotiated with then British prime minister and this brought about the first ceasefire and this was a precursor the peace deal Blair got with negotiating with Sinn Fein. This brought about long lasting peace in the North which is a good thing. I not a big fan of Gerry Adams  but he and Sinn Fein did contribute in a large way to the negotiations that brought long lasting peace. Give credit where it's due and I think you have to give a lot of credit for that. The ends justified the means. The IRA voluntarily agreed to an end to the conflict.

The UVF were just as bad as the IRA. The UVF bombed Dublin and Monaghan in 1974 which killed 33 civilians and injured nearly 300. That was the deadliest bombing of the Troubles and it happened in Southern Ireland killing southern Irish civilians.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Tommy Vercetti

[wolfie1996]

2 minutes ago, Tommy Vercetti said:

Peace was achieved in the North through negotiation between the North and British governments. The North has been largely peaceful for over 20 years now. The first ceasefire was on the 25th anniversary of the conflict when the then Irish Prime Minister Albert Reynolds acted as mediator on behalf of the Catholics in the North and negotiated with then British prime minister John Major and this brought about the first ceasefire and this was a precursor the peace deal Blair got with negotiating with Sinn Fein. This brought about long lasting peace in the North which is a good thing. I not a big fan of Gerry Adams  but he and Sinn Fein did contribute in a large way to the negotiations that brought long lasting peace. Give credit where it's due and I think you have to give a lot of credit for that. The ends justified the means. The IRA voluntarily agreed to an end to the conflict.

The UVF were just as bad as the IRA. The UVF bombed Dublin and Monaghan in 1974 which killed 33 civilians and injured nearly 300. That was the deadliest bombing of the Troubles and it happened in Southern Ireland killing southern Irish civilians.

Have I spoken in favour of the UVF? They were also  classed as terrorists and weren't their members Irish anyway? Though without the IRA and its activities, I doubt they'd have come into existence. That was more North vs South rather than Irish  vs British, surely. These people use religion as an excuse for violence (rather like some others we can think of in this present day.)

[Tommy Vercetti]

The UVF were from Northern Ireland.They are Protestants and Loyalists. They are infact British as Northern Ireland is a part of Britain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Volunteer_Force

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Tommy Vercetti

[wolfie1996]

3 minutes ago, Tommy Vercetti said:

The UVF were from Northern Ireland.They were pro British Protestants and Loyalists loyal to Britain. British people weren't to blame for their actions though. I'm not an expert on the UVF.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Volunteer_Force

The South didn't really figure in the Troubles. It was a conflict between Catholics and Protestants in the North.

Maybe they should have been left to get on with it, do you think? Rather like the Middle East now (and if there's ever a time in the Middle East when there isn't a war going on somewhere, would someone let me know?) It can't be ignored that the IRA brought the war into England  with a vengeance though, and I  could list the many, many bomb attacks against English civilians and property which I suspect far outnumber any against Irish ones. Most of the perpetrators were never brought to justice either.

 

[Tommy Vercetti]

Well, I've said all I have to say. I don't have anything else to add so I think returning to the topic of this Vice episode is in order.

[vicegirl85]

6 hours ago, wolfie1996 said:

Though I see they couldn't resist tarring the MI5 guy with the same brush!

I need to re-watch this episode but it seemed to me that Richard Cross was portrayed more as an agent who didn't trust the MV force to prevent Carroon from blowing up the Concorde, so he decided to make a move that he hoped would prevent it himself.  That backfired.  I didn't perceive that he was actually shown to be corrupt.  The "one of their own" that Castillo and Co. wouldn't abandon was Gina, of course.

For the rest of your questions:  400 years of history.

True that there have been (and still are) groups that use religion as a reason or excuse to make war with another group.  

Otherwise, I've said my piece and agree with Tommy Vercetti that it's time to return to the topic of the episode itself. 

[wolfie1996]

1 hour ago, Tommy Vercetti said:

Well, I've said all I have to say. I don't have anything else to add so I think returning to the topic of this Vice episode is in order.

Well I have too. Can't imagine why people take issue so much with some of these topics.

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, vicegirl85 said:

I need to re-watch this episode but it seemed to me that Richard Cross was portrayed more as an agent who didn't trust the MV force to prevent Carroon from blowing up the Concorde, so he decided to make a move that he hoped would prevent it himself.  That backfired.  I didn't perceive that he was actually shown to be corrupt.  The "one of their own" that Castillo and Co. wouldn't abandon was Gina, of course.

For the rest of your questions:  400 years of history.

True that there have been (and still are) groups that use religion as a reason or excuse to make war with another group.  

Otherwise, I've said my piece and agree with Tommy Vercetti that it's time to return to the topic of the episode itself. 

I agree...I don’t think Cross was corrupt per-say, but he became so obsessed with stopping (probably killing) Carroon, that he made moves without authorization & were illegal and/or out of compliance with his government and the U.S. His moves about got people killed and seriously compromised the mission/case. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[wolfie1996]

26 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

I need to re-watch this episode but it seemed to me that Richard Cross was portrayed more as an agent who didn't trust the MV force to prevent Carroon from blowing up the Concorde, so he decided to make a move that he hoped would prevent it himself.  That backfired.  I didn't perceive that he was actually shown to be corrupt.  The "one of their own" that Castillo and Co. wouldn't abandon was Gina, of course.

For the rest of your questions:  400 years of history.

True that there have been (and still are) groups that use religion as a reason or excuse to make war with another group.  

Otherwise, I've said my piece and agree with Tommy Vercetti that it's time to return to the topic of the episode itself. 

Yes I'm not objecting to doing that but it seems I can't give an opinion on here without  someone becoming very argumentative about it and not saying we'll agree to disagree. There. It doesn't take long to write that, does it? I watched that recently, vicegirl and I got the impression there was something iffy about Cross phoning Carroon- why otherwise  did Castillo get so annoyed about it? By warning Carroon they know about the beach he may have hoped to scare him off the Concorde attack (but as you say, didn't succeed) and also he could have escaped altogether to plan something  else they DIDN'T know about. So it was a pretty strange thing to do anyway. Gina wasn't in any danger of being abandoned as far as I could  tell. I was waiting for Castillo to say he was under arrest actually and I'm sure Crockett took his gun.  Question: is anyone allowed to be a good guy on MV who isn't actually American? Or was that an 80's thing?

[ViceFanMan]

Cross phoned Carroon to tip him off...to warn him about law enforcement. That way he himself could go take care of Carroon...most likely kill him. This seriously compromised the case and almost got people killed. He didn’t count on Castillo keeping tabs on him, too... and ultimately his call was discovered. 

As for “good guys” on MV...well, other than the main characters almost all the other people they dealt with were either drug dealers, corrupt/“fallen” politicians/cops, or whacky informants. So, whether in or out of the U.S. there weren’t too many good guys to be seen. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[vicegirl85]

1 hour ago, wolfie1996 said:

I got the impression there was something iffy about Cross phoning Carroon- why otherwise  did Castillo get so annoyed about it? By warning Carroon they know about the beach he may have hoped to scare him off the Concorde attack (but as you say, didn't succeed) and also he could have escaped altogether to plan something  else they DIDN'T know about. So it was a pretty strange thing to do anyway. Gina wasn't in any danger of being abandoned as far as I could  tell.

Yes, Cross had been drinking and so he took an action on his own that was most likely way outside of his own assignment.

Cross gave the impression Gina was expendable when he said the team should not share any information about Carroon with her.

Finally:

1 hour ago, wolfie1996 said:

we'll agree to disagree

Amen to that.  I don't really wish to argue.  It does sometimes seem that different viewers come away from watching the same episode with different impressions.  I think there's plenty of room for that as the show often doesn't spell out everything about the characters or outcomes.  I do like to explain my own interpretations but certainly it's possible I'm wrong.

Peace, out. 

[ViceFanMan]

I don’t know exactly when in the show this was taken, but to me it seems from around “Irish Eyes”, or Season 3. I have an 8x10 of this. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[Dadrian]

@Tomor @Matt5 can probably correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe this was part of a shoot with the whole cast right before season 3. 

[Campion]

Cross phoned Caroon so that he wouldn't get caught and would shoot down the Concorde. He did this with the hope that such a successful terrorist attack by the IRA would free him to "put a bullet in Caroon's head wherever I see him."

It's not a mystery--he states it clearly earlier in the episode when he says to Castillo: "You know what's going to happen? One day Caroon or one of his cronies is going to go too far and I'll get that power." (slight paraphrase). So, he gets drunk while listening to a South African crackdown against apartheid protestors, says "at least someone is thinking" then takes it upon himself to help Caroon go too far. 

[Tom]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Dadrian:

@Tomor @Matt5 can probably correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe this was part of a shoot with the whole cast right before season 3. 

looks like season 4 promo. I posted many of them in the BTS thread.  There were no promo shots taken in season 3 with Gina and Trudy.

[wolfie1996]

9 minutes ago, Campion said:

Cross phoned Caroon so that he wouldn't get caught and would shoot down the Concorde. He did this with the hope that such a successful terrorist attack by the IRA would free him to "put a bullet in Caroon's head wherever I see him."

It's not a mystery--he states it clearly earlier in the episode when he says to Castillo: "You know what's going to happen? One day Caroon or one of his cronies is going to go too far and I'll get that power." (slight paraphrase). So, he gets drunk while listening to a South African crackdown against apartheid protestors, says "at least someone is thinking" then takes it upon himself to help Caroon go too far. 

THAT'S the bit I was thinking of! I knew it was warning Carroon with a view to him SUCCEEDING, that's  why I thought Castillo would arrest him. Yes you're absolutely right. So as I say, Cross is yet another bad guy, that he  doesn't mind using such means to achieve his objective (which was eliminating Carroon.) He should actually have been arrested for that atrocious accent. Not many can do a good English one. I can  think of James Marsters  and Alex Denisof (both in Buffy ) I actually thought both of them WERE English for years! Renée Zellweger as Bridget Jones and possibly Meryl Streep.But I'm sure  people might think of others, they're the ones who've impressed me. Thanks, Campion!