Continuity in Miami Vice

[RedDragon86]

I kind of makes me chuckle that he thought he could improve the show. I find it hilarious to be honest. 

Yeah lets improve a show that changed television. 

[RedDragon86]

His show Law & Order is just repetitive drivel. This is the episodes in nutshell, 2 detective question suspects, witnesses all day, door to door, then we end up with a court scene at the end, then times that by 30 seasons.

[Tom]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb RedDragon86:

I kind of makes me chuckle that he thought he could improve the show. I find it hilarious to be honest. 

Yeah lets improve a show that changed television. 

It was MMs intent to change the show after season 2 and he wanted to hand over to develop Crime Story and Band of the hand. Nobody forced him to. But MM said he feared that Vice would become a copy of its own and needed to reinvent itself. MM was always a risk prone gambler. He also said to all young directors „don’t be on the safe side! I want you to try out even it turns out to be wrong!“

Blaming Wolf is barking up the wrong tree IMHO.

[Bren10]

Yeah, but I like a reference source with a timeline, Tom. I don't feel like looking at the closing credits of all the eps for info. So with your permission, I'll peruse the wiki. Thanks. 

[Tom]

vor 1 Minute schrieb RedDragon86:

His show Law & Order is just repetitive drivel. This is the episodes in nutshell, 2 detective question suspects, witnesses all day, door to door, then we end up with a court scene at the end, then times that by 30 seasons.

Right. But that was new in 1990 and is still very successful isn’t it?

[Tom]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Bren10:

Yeah, but I like a reference source with a timeline, Tom. I don't feel like looking at the closing credits of all the eps for info. So with your permission, I'll peruse the wiki. Thanks. 

I just say be careful with (in this case) job titles cited in wikis (If I had 10 Cents for each nonsense written in Wikis about MV, I would have become richer than Bill Gates). And you don’t need to look up all eps, just the final episodes of each season is usually enough 

[Robbie C.]

2 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

I kind of makes me chuckle that he thought he could improve the show. I find it hilarious to be honest. 

Yeah lets improve a show that changed television. 

Visually it changed television. Story wise? Not so much on the whole. Until perhaps the later seasons. But by then it was too late because the continuity and characters were broken. 

[Bren10]

One thing I think it did contribute storywise early on is insight into the black ops/covert ops world and the idea that US law enforcement and alphabet agencies aren't always the good guys. As well as the idea of conflicting agendas and aims between said agencies and undermining one another. The show did not present law enforcement as a homogeneous brotherhood and I think that was a relatively new concept at the time. I don't remember prior cop shows that addressed things like the Golden Triangle and the CIA's complicity in its operation. Things like that make us look bad and a lot of shows I think stayed away from things like that. Viet Nam was also something we were still smarting from in '84 or just refused to talk about at all. I think Yerkovich and Mann (or whomever) deserve credit for not being afraid to tackle those subjects.

[Bren10]

4 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

His show Law & Order is just repetitive drivel. This is the episodes in nutshell, 2 detective question suspects, witnesses all day, door to door, then we end up with a court scene at the end, then times that by 30 seasons.

And I also just found it an ugly show to look at, especially a lot of the male cast. As well as characters that were just not likeable at all. I had the same problem with NYPD Blue.

[Glades]

The first time I saw MV complete, I was thrilled. And I was trying to understand why -
So I looked again and closer. I asked myself what I liked about MV. I didn't asked myself what I might be missing. I didn't asked what criteria for example for character development or continuity MV doesn't meet or meets.
And I came to the conclusion that MV makes sense, that it works according to its own rules and works very well.

What is said here regarding continuity, I can understand some of it. But I think that was never a main goal with MV. And I probably wouldn't be nearly as interested in a show that places a lot of emphasis on the explicit presentation of continuity as I´m interested in MV.
What is criticized here is what I find fascinating and exciting. In its own way, I think MV does have a good "continuity". This is not so obvious, not so explicit, but clearly there. MV is not just told in a linear way, but also in a connected and circular way, on many levels. As with some traditional Japanese painting, much remains foreshadowed.

Yes, not everything is perfect with MV, they have taken chances and they have made mistakes. But I think none of the awesome would have happened if they hadn't. I think it's wonderful that not everything that could have been told has been told. I would find that rather dull, perfect, dead. Not full of life. Not my MV.
Probably then there would be no MV forum and no fan fiction from Robbie either - both which I would miss.   Just my 2 cents.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Glades

[RedDragon86]

I don't get how the writing is any better after season 2, I mean just because there is less style/visuals but does that mean the writing is somehow better? You sit down and watch an episode lets say Payback or Buddies are they not written just as good or as interesting as Stones War or Red Tape?

To be honest I think season 3 is still relies on the shows famous style and visuals, its just darker with great car chases and montages etc, just look at that scene in "Lend Me An Ear" with the use of the green light when they bug Dykstra home at night. One of the best, stylish scenes in the series.

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by RedDragon86

[Tom]

vor einer Stunde schrieb RedDragon86:

I don't get how the writing is any better after season 2, I mean just because there is less style/visuals but does that mean the writing is somehow better? You sit down and watch an episode lets say Payback or Buddies are they not written just as good or as interesting as Stones War or Red Tape?

To be honest I think season 3 is still relies on the shows famous style and visuals, its just darker with great car chases and montages etc, just look at that scene in "Lend Me An Ear" with the use of the green light when they bug Dykstra home at night. One of the best, stylish scenes in the series.

 

Payback and Buddies are some of a few exceptions in season 2 for substance. Definetely Miami, Junk Love and Florence Italy have hardly any story substance at all and are better benchmark for comparing season 2 and 3. 

in my opinion style in season 3 is as good as in 2 or even better but the substance in 3 is considerably higher (more sophisticated stories with interesting topics, season 2 stories where mostly garden variety one-liners with some artificially added celebrity casting roles (Miles Davis, Leonard Cohen).

Edited May 5, 2020 by Tom

[RedDragon86]

16 minutes ago, Tom said:

Payback and Buddies are some of a few exceptions in season 2 for substance. Definetely Miami, Junk Love and Florence Italy have hardly any story substance at all and are better benchmark for comparing season 2 and 3. 

I would put the lack of story substance with those to the fact they are sort of mystery episodes, like they don't know exactly what is going on and why.

"Definitely Miami" I would say is a psychological episode, has a lot of depth to it.

Edited May 5, 2020 by RedDragon86

[ivoryjones]

On 5/3/2020 at 5:51 PM, airtommy said:

2.  In "Heart of Night", Trudy says "When I was a rookie cop, I had my first shoot.  Man, I was really wracked up by it.  The Lieutenant, he was there for me."  Of course, Trudy was on the Vice squad before Castillo and was hardly a rookie in "Dutch Oven".  In fact, Trudy is the person who tells Castillo where his office is in "One Eyed Jack"!

 

That one about "first shoot" puzzles me every time I re-watch "Heart of Night" (btw an ep I really enjoy: nice story,  nice plot, good action, and the last scene is ridiculously beautiful and poetic).

Funny is that that line brings me not only "The Dutch Oven" back, but also "Give a Little, Take a Little". On GLTL Trudy fires in a most assertive manner at Cinco ! That in particular makes me think the whole idea behind "The Dutch Oven" is not that solid anyway (a continuity issue, too?). Already on S1 Trudy seemed to be prepared for nearly everything.

Anyway, though I do like inter-episodes continuity, nowadays I guess TV shows have been taken over by it. One issue that comes with that package is that sometimes the series finale has to fix everything hundreds of previous eps couldn't, sometimes badly. There could be some fine TV shows with no continuous plots today.

I just love a new ep that starts from scratch. Start Trek has always amused me with that (usually relaxed) "Captains Log"  atmosphere. MV was a little different: it was so cool when the ep would start right in the middle of an operation. I think that MM once said -- perhaps on MV 2006 running commentary --  that he did it on purpose, he wanted the viewer to feel they caught the story and the action right in the middle. That narrative technique to me seemed to increase the feeling of "hey, there's new stuff going on ".

[vicegirl85]

1 hour ago, ivoryjones said:

(snipped) Anyway, though I do like inter-episodes continuity, nowadays I guess TV shows have been taken over by it. One issue that comes with that package is that sometimes the series finale has to fix everything hundreds of previous eps couldn't, sometimes badly. There could be some fine TV shows with no continuous plots today.

I just love a new ep that starts from scratch. Start Trek has always amused me with that (usually relaxed) "Captains Log"  atmosphere. MV was a little different: it was so cool when the ep would start right in the middle of an operation. I think that MM once said -- perhaps on MV 2006 running commentary --  that he did it on purpose, he wanted the viewer to feel they caught the story and the action right in the middle. That narrative technique to me seemed to increase the feeling of "hey, there's new stuff going on ".

I think you make some good points, ivoryjones.

Generally I enjoy some continuity in a series, but if I've missed the beginning, it's easier to get involved when each episode can stand somewhat on its own, instead of only continuing a storyline or providing a new facet of a character.  This also goes to Mann's apparent preference and desire (in MV) to make each episode almost a standalone hour-long film, rather than a piece of a bigger picture.

[airtommy]

1 hour ago, ivoryjones said:

 it was so cool when the ep would start right in the middle of an operation. I think that MM once said -- perhaps on MV 2006 running commentary --  that he did it on purpose, he wanted the viewer to feel they caught the story and the action right in the middle. That narrative technique to me seemed to increase the feeling of "hey, there's new stuff going on ".

That's a really good point.   

[Noggie]

Nothing was more jarring to my 15 yr old brain than to have Bill Smitrovich appear in the pilot and the season 2 premiere!  That was just weird.   (I’ll give Miguel Pinero a pass because it took time for me to recognize him. )

[Dadrian]

@Noggie how did you feel when Trini turned up as a four-eyed bank robber in “The Great McCarthy”? 

[Noggie]

45 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

@Noggie how did you feel when Trini turned up as a four-eyed bank robber in “The Great McCarthy”? 

I came to the show just before it was going into summer reruns. There were a few new episodes left. I think I started when they aired the “Calderon” two parter.  I didn’t see the pilot until it was are rerun on a Sunday night.  Seeing Izzy as Trini is right up there with my earlier mention! The show gained a great character but it’s amazing how different tv was then. That would probably never happen now. 

Regarding story continuity, I like the format the show followed but do think occasional references to the past or recurring characters would’ve been nice.  Not full season storylines but something like the season 1 Lombard story. 

[Dadrian]

I always find it interesting when the script alludes to real celebrities who (at another time) appear on the show (not as themselves), such as Sonny mentioning Don King (Glades? or Milk Run?) and Izzy’s hilarious “Su-Su-Su-Sudia” interpretation of the Phil Collins song (Whatever Works). 

[airtommy]

On 9/1/2020 at 8:11 AM, Dadrian said:

I always find it interesting when the script alludes to real celebrities who (at another time) appear on the show (not as themselves), such as Sonny mentioning Don King (Glades? or Milk Run?) and Izzy’s hilarious “Su-Su-Su-Sudia” interpretation of the Phil Collins song (Whatever Works). 

Lee Iacocca, quoted by Izzy (not sure which episodes) and brief acting role in Sons & Lovers