Episode #91 "Hostile Takeover"

[Robbie C.]

2 hours ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

Ugh...I knew I had more to my comment, but I lost focus midstream; in reference to the swath that Sonny Burnett cut through the drug cartels, I got to thinking back to what J.J. Johnston said to Crockett in 'The Prodigal Son Part II' about Sonny being turned down by American Express. Well, I bet Sonny BURNETT wouldn't be turned down by AMEX!

And if he was, he'd just take out the company and put his own in its place.

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

Just now, Robbie C. said:

And if he was, he'd just take out the company and put his own in its place.

For sure, I was considering he'd have a Hostile Takeover on that front as well, probably end up owning numerous credit card companies! the man could've been emperor.

[Matt5]

Just now, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

For sure, I was considering he'd have a Hostile Takeover on that front as well, probably end up owning numerous credit card companies! the man could've been emperor.

What an episode!

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

One thing I'm thankful for in this episode: Celeste getting out of those depressing duds.

[ViceFanMan]

Now we enter Season 5...the final season, and to premiere it, the continuation of Crockett's bizarre decent into his deadly alter ego Sonny Burnett.

I will be honest and say I really did not care for the whole Burnett-saga (after “Mirror Image”), and stretching it out to 3 parts was ridiculous & too much. The pastels were gone...no real cool colors much at all (perhaps a few lighting choices?).  

Crockett became very "dark" and demented very quickly, and had no trouble pitting people against each other so he could take over--nor did he have any problems killing others to get ahead, which bothered me...as obviously Crockett wouldn’t have done that, but I don’t think ‘Burnett’ would either. Burnett was never real...he was always a fake persona for Sonny’s job. Burnett didn’t go around shooting & killing people to get ahead when Crockett ‘pretended’ to be him before...why would he suddenly become a gun-wielding psychopath now?    

I'm sorry, but Sonny crossed so many lines that in reality he could never be the same...he would never be able to come-back, so-to-speak. Even if & when his memory supposedly returned, he would have been sent to some kind of mental facility & he’d never be allowed to be a cop or carry a weapon again. The whole Burnett plot just kept getting more ridiculous and destructive as it went along. 

I also did not like the characters of Miguel Carrera, El Gato, nor Cliff King. All of them were annoying and ridiculous...from Miguel having the "stupidest" hairdo ever  (even in the 80's) and being a whiny-butt ; El Gato being this fat, disgusting, sweaty, pig in ugly shiny clothes that made you want to throw up and probably hold your nose to block out the stench of B.O. ; and Cliff this moron, hay-seed, hick with stupid, back-woods sayings and was kind of whiny himself. But, I guess this was all on purpose, to let you know that at some point these characters would probably be killed.

I will say that Don did a superb job of acting...he was pretty ruthless and scary as Burnett, although I did not like his ponytail.  But, it was interesting to watch him try to live his life as a drug dealer...yet knowing something wasn't quite right and he starts having flashbacks. Of course his shooting Tubbs scene was pretty intense...and once again would have destroyed any chance of them being friends or partners in law enforcement ever again!

I did like the character of Celeste. She was beautiful , and did seem to really care about Burnett—who also seemed to actually care about her (to an extent). But, their relationship was never real...as Burnett himself wasn’t real! So, none of it really mattered. 

The music was good in this one, with Underneath the Radar by Underworld, and Walk & Talk Like Angels by Toni Childs. Sadly though, other than the starting theme, no more Jan Hammer.  The filming locations were also pretty good...love the mansions/pools used for the Carreras, and the lighthouse!

But, this (in my opinion), and the 3rd part after it, were not good ways to try and bring the show “back”. I think the producers & writers were desperate for high ratings again, and so they went with a shock-value approach. But, ultimately it was too bizarre & destructive for Crockett, and everything just kind of seemed disjointed. The whole thing basically backfired...resulting in more dismal ratings & reviews. 

If I could re-rate this episode it’d get a 4.  

Edited August 13, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[RedDragon86]

Doesn't make any sense why old man Carrera was reluctant to take out El Gato, like he was level headed like Don Corleone but he killed his much more powerful brother. He started the war.

"And tomorrow, there will be a new one"

So why did you kill his brother?

[Adrian321]

While I agree that some things seem odd in this episode; like Carrera's reluctance (and this is a huge one); we could pardon this by not having enough details of the picture, because there was more to say when the writers imagined this episode, that did not make it in (maybe) ?

I still rate this episode a 10/10, the 8th best episode in the series.

I actually loved the way it was filmed, and the whole Burnett saga thing. The intro is pretty well shot, and really makes you feel like -this is Season 5, from the moment it starts- and the Crockett-Tubbs meeting scene, and the acting of Don Johnson when impersonating the new Sonny Burnett makes it feel like a fresh continuation; the ending makes a good cliffhanger too, and makes you hungry for the next, when watching for the first time.

It also keeps you engaged always, and I remember the first time watching it, I was really eager to watch it all, and not just go over it, like with many other episodes. The action is also good, and there are new intresting characters, and that breakfast-lunch-dinner lady, called Celeste; played wonderfully by her respective actress.

She plays the role of the gold digger very well. The other ones are good aswell.

 

Overall, I think this is the 3rd best S5 episode, only behind Freefall and Redemption in Blood.

[Adrian321]

On 12/4/2019 at 7:24 AM, ViceFanMan said:

I agree...the writers were too ridiculous in making Crockett/Burnett a psychotic killer. However, he ultimately did have somewhat of a caring & even understanding side—as if some of Crockett was still there & “seeped” into Burnett’s personality, without Burnett even realizing it. But, you’re right...it was mostly bull & totally ridiculous. He went so overboard there would have been no way back.  Like I said before, they were desperately trying to regain ratings & viewers and I think they went for the shock-value idea. Problem is they went too far & it sadly backfired. 

Agree...the possibility that Crockett lost-it and became his alter-ego after the head injury in the boat explosion is plausible. And for being ruthless...Burnett actually seemed to have a little bit of Crockett’s caring or understanding side, besides the killer aspect. He wasn’t all psycho-sociopath.  

But, yeah there’s NO way he’d of ever been allowed back!   I think you’re right—in reality he’d of been (probably quietly) medically/mentally retired out. 

I actually do not like to talk about the "probability" aspects of MV; because if we were to take it this way then Crockett and Tubbs could call themselves lucky if they made it to Season 3 without dying or being wounded permanently.

The "probability" aspect is in my opinion just a pseudo-point to add to the opinion that this episode is bad. There are some good reasons this episode is bad that you could make, and reach the conclusion that it is not a good episode (which you initially did not think, a few years ago),but using this one is not one of them, because:

If it were........ then you'd have to put this specific stamp on any aspect of MV........ and that is actually what made MV intresting, that it could go over the top sometimes, and still continue; as it is not bound to reality as much as reality is.

If we were to apply this, for example to"Calderone's demise" how possible is that Tubbs could enter Calderone's house, on his island, with him being a very big dealer. Also, what is the probability that his security was that bad and Crockett and Tubbs could get away from that ?

The answers to all questions are "very unlikely/low" but it doesn't matter, because that episode was a very good one, almost a 10/10 for me......

[ViceFanMan]

4 minutes ago, Adrian321 said:

I actually do not like to talk about the "probability" aspects of MV; because if we were to take it this way then Crockett and Tubbs could call themselves lucky if they made it to Season 3 without dying or being wounded permanently.

The "probability" aspect is in my opinion just a pseudo-point to add to the opinion that this episode is bad. There are some good reasons this episode is bad that you could make, and reach the conclusion that it is not a good episode (which you initially did not think, a few years ago),but using this one is not one of them, because:

If it were........ then you'd have to put this specific stamp on any aspect of MV........ and that is actually what made MV intresting, that it could go over the top sometimes, and still continue; as it is not bound to reality as much as reality is.

If we were to apply this, for example to"Calderone's demise" how possible is that Tubbs could enter Calderone's house, on his island, with him being a very big dealer. Also, what is the probability that his security was that bad and Crockett and Tubbs could get away from that ?

The answers to all questions are "very unlikely/low" but it doesn't matter, because that episode was a very good one, almost a 10/10 for me......

Each has their likes and dislikes...but I stand by my previous statements and views of this one (and the other Burnett ones). They went way too ridiculous & far, for even MV, and destructive with the character of Crockett. These were desperate attempts to try and somehow get back viewers/ratings, and it showed...and backfired. Ratings fell even further, and they ultimately, sadly helped contribute to the demise of the show. 

[Adrian321]

17 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Each has their likes and dislikes...but I stand by my previous statements and views of this one (and the other Burnett ones). They went way too ridiculous & far, for even MV, and destructive with the character of Crockett. These were desperate attempts to try and somehow get back viewers/ratings, and it showed...and backfired. Ratings fell even further, and they ultimately, sadly helped contribute to the demise of the show. 

Well; it is cool we have our own opinions, but they can't rely on a reason like this....... The probability one; as I've tried to explain should be an invalid reason, because it has too many implications that would hurt the rest of the show, including parts we both agree on are great (Calderone story for example is very over the top and improbable in many of its aspects).

I actually do not think they went "too far"; as those are Missing hours and the "elite". I do think it is VERY over the top, and has some problems..... but so what ? Rather than having a boring episode like most other S4 and 5, I'd have this 10x more because it is engaging atleast, and it is very well shot, good actors. Simply put something new (related to "vice")

But I can agree on that these episodes are "destructive" for Crockett's character. Deliver us from evil is not (even if Crockett murders Hackman, as the orginal non-goofed up scene with that stupid gun).

 

However, and it is really important; does it really matter, since there is anyways just less than a Season left ? I also think that the ending makes much more sense with this aspect kept in mind; after this over the top insanity it is much more likely to burn out. Most people would.

 

I didn't look up on the ratings when MV first aired to correlate the loss with these episodes. If I lived in back then and watched MV, I would've been on the other side of the opinion. This episodes actually saved S4-5 from the bad quality "elite"; this lifted them up, all things considered.

If you dissagree, what would you suggest they did, instead of this ? We need to consider the desperate situation they were in; and since you think as most of the people in that time period, maybe the changes you'd do could satisfy EVERY fan, or most ones, not me and the ones who agree with me; or vice versa. 

We need some very good episodes to lift up and keep the rating afloat; something the producers and writers *tried* more unsuccesfully.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Adrian321
Forgot something

[ViceFanMan]

16 minutes ago, Adrian321 said:

Well; it is cool we have our own opinions, but they can't rely on a reason like this....... The probability one; as I've tried to explain should be an invalid reason, because it has too many implications that would hurt the rest of the show, including parts we both agree on are great (Calderone story for example is very over the top and improbable in many of its aspects).

I actually do not think they went "too far"; as those are Missing hours and the "elite". I do think it is VERY over the top, and has some problems..... but so what ? Rather than having a boring episode like most other S4 and 5, I'd have this 10x more because it is engaging atleast, and it is very well shot, good actors. Simply put something new (related to "vice")

But I can agree on that these episodes are "destructive" for Crockett's character. Deliver us from evil is not (even if Crockett murders Hackman, as the orginal non-goofed up scene with that stupid gun).

 

However, and it is really important; does it really matter, since there is anyways just less than a Season left ? I also think that the ending makes much more sense with this aspect kept in mind; after this over the top insanity it is much more likely to burn out. Most people would.

 

I didn't look up on the ratings when MV first aired to correlate the loss with these episodes. If I lived in back then and watched MV, I would've been on the other side of the opinion. This episodes actually saved S4-5 from the bad quality "elite"; this lifted them up, all things considered.

If you dissagree, what would you suggest they did, instead of this ? We need to consider the desperate situation they were in; and since you think as most of the people in that time period, maybe the changes you'd do could satisfy EVERY fan, or most ones, not me and the ones who agree with me; or vice versa. 

We need some very good episodes to lift up and keep the rating afloat; something the producers and writers *tried* more unsuccesfully.

 I still stand by what I previously stated and feel the reasons that I stated before are ones that we can look at and consider.  I think they were looked at and considered, and that is ultimately why it contributed to further ratings decline. But, to each his or her own with whatever they do or don’t like and for those various reasons! 

Edited November 3, 2021 by ViceFanMan

[Adrian321]

9 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

 I still stand by what I previously stated and feel the reasons that I stated before are ones that we can look at and consider.  I think they were looked at and considered, and that is ultimately why it contributed to further ratings decline. 

We could look at this as the half empty-half full glass of water. 

Is it half empty, or half full ? You and most Vice fans of the 80's see it as a half empty glass, and state some valid reasons.

Me and another good portion of Vice fans see it as a half full glass, and also state some valid reasons.

 

The reasons you stated aren't the only ones we can look at. They are the ones we can look at if we have a certain position from the start; as it is hard to change your point of view to the half full glass of water or vice versa.

I may also hyperevaluate this episode for what it is not; and you might undervalue it for what it is. So, is there any way to decide what kind of episode this is ? Is it actually bad; or actually good ? We could go back and forth for a very long time trying to change each other's mind.

But it is pointless.... or just so hard it is not worth the amount of time and reasoning needed to decide which side is actually right. The majority position isn't automatically correct; so we can't decide by this; and neither by objective standards, because there are some objective standards for; and some against.
 

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Adrian321
Forgot something

[ViceFanMan]

12 minutes ago, Adrian321 said:

We could look at this as the half empty-half full glass of water. 

Is it half empty, or half full ? You and most Vice fans of the 80's see it as a half empty glass, and state some valid reasons.

Me and another good portion of Vice fans see it as a half full glass, and also state some valid reasons.

 

The reasons you stated aren't the only ones we can look at. They are the ones we can look at if we have a certain position from the start; as it is hard to change your point of view to the half full glass of water or vice versa.

I may also hyperevaluate this episode for what it is not; and you might undervalue it for what it is. So, is there any way to decide what kind of episode this is ? Is it actually bad; or actually good ? We could go back and forth for a very long time trying to change each other's mind.

But it is pointless.... or just so hard it is not worth the amount of time and reasoning needed to decide which side is actually right. The majority position isn't automatically correct; so we can't decide by this; and neither by objective standards, because there are some objective standards for; and some against.
 

 

Like I said, everyone has their likes and dislikes.  Some will agree, some won’t. But, I still stand by mine, and ultimately as a whole I think the majority of fans at the time of the Burnett episodes had similar thoughts & opinions. This is why ratings fell even further...and subsequently not long after the Burnett ones to start Season 5 aired, word came down the show was officially canceled after that season wrapped. 

[Robbie C.]

I think the reality is simple enough: Don Johnson wanted to go be a big movie star and some time before that Michael Mann lost interest in his creation. It's really (in my view) that simple.

Vice was never really structured to run for a long time. It was very much a creation of its times (not unlike the Mod Squad and some other shows), and once that time passed so did the show. I don't think there's much basis to say fans of the time didn't like the Burnett episodes: rating are a VERY fickle thing and determined by a relative handful of households. Maybe the group Nielsen was sampling simply preferred to see who shot JR. We don't know.

I find the Burnett episodes very interesting explorations of the toll long-term undercover operations combined with trauma (both physical and mental/emotional) could take on someone. Someone doesn't like that...that's fine. But it doesn't automatically follow that because someone doesn't like the episodes they're bad. They were on the whole well-written, shot very well, and acted well in the bargain. They also managed to hold together for a multi-episode arc...something Vice honestly had a great deal of trouble doing.

[ViceFanMan]

27 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

I think the reality is simple enough: Don Johnson wanted to go be a big movie star and some time before that Michael Mann lost interest in his creation. It's really (in my view) that simple.

Vice was never really structured to run for a long time. It was very much a creation of its times (not unlike the Mod Squad and some other shows), and once that time passed so did the show. I don't think there's much basis to say fans of the time didn't like the Burnett episodes: rating are a VERY fickle thing and determined by a relative handful of households. Maybe the group Nielsen was sampling simply preferred to see who shot JR. We don't know.

I find the Burnett episodes very interesting explorations of the toll long-term undercover operations combined with trauma (both physical and mental/emotional) could take on someone. Someone doesn't like that...that's fine. But it doesn't automatically follow that because someone doesn't like the episodes they're bad. They were on the whole well-written, shot very well, and acted well in the bargain. They also managed to hold together for a multi-episode arc...something Vice honestly had a great deal of trouble doing.

A lot of this is true to an extent, but I remember at the time those episodes aired...and the reviews, ratings, and fan interviews as a whole were not good. A lot of viewers were basically left shaking their heads & finally (sadly) starting to jump-ship.

Granted, this part is my opinion, but I don’t think they were well written, nor did they hold up or “flow” together at all. They were ridiculously over the top & all over the place. But, regardless of who does or doesn’t like them...ultimately the Burnett episodes did not bring in positive or high ratings, and they ultimately did not help save the show...as at the time of Seasons 4-5, producers were desperately trying to do. Those episodes ultimately, sadly helped along the demise. 

By no means do I think that MV was a show that could’ve gone on 15 to 20 years like some crime shows now. But, I do think that it could’ve gone on longer than 5 seasons if the writers and producers had gotten it together, and created better episodes towards the end of the series. 

[Robbie C.]

Naw...it might have made another season...two at the most. Most of the actors looked to be tired of it, and the moment had passed. New Jack City captures the transition pretty well, in my view. The 90s weren't about glamor and cocaine...they were about grit and crack. The pastels were gone, and Vice would have had a great deal of difficulty adjusting to that. It was a product of Michael Mann's desire to bring film production standards and sensibilities to television...and he left as soon as he felt he'd accomplished that. Vice was a gateway or transition series, making the bridge between Hill Street Blues and shows like NYPD Blue and The Shield, in addition to being a prime example of TV Noir.

And in terms of maintaining a mood and a plot arc, the Burnett episodes were well written, especially for Vice. They flow together quite well all things considered, especially for a series that had issues with that kind of flow. As many love to point out, seasons 4 and 5 are supposedly all over the place. Having three episodes that could maintain a focus and theme is rather amazing when you consider it in that light.

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, Robbie C. said:

Naw...it might have made another season...two at the most. Most of the actors looked to be tired of it, and the moment had passed. New Jack City captures the transition pretty well, in my view. The 90s weren't about glamor and cocaine...they were about grit and crack. The pastels were gone, and Vice would have had a great deal of difficulty adjusting to that. It was a product of Michael Mann's desire to bring film production standards and sensibilities to television...and he left as soon as he felt he'd accomplished that. Vice was a gateway or transition series, making the bridge between Hill Street Blues and shows like NYPD Blue and The Shield, in addition to being a prime example of TV Noir.

And in terms of maintaining a mood and a plot arc, the Burnett episodes were well written, especially for Vice. They flow together quite well all things considered, especially for a series that had issues with that kind of flow. As many love to point out, seasons 4 and 5 are supposedly all over the place. Having three episodes that could maintain a focus and theme is rather amazing when you consider it in that light.

True...it might have only gone another couple seasons. But, if the writers & producers at that time had created better episodes & the ratings/popularity had still been high, I wonder if the cast would have been more invested in staying for a while longer? I think we could have had 6-7 seasons. 

As for the Burnett episodes, I know we’ll disagree.  I’m sorry, but part of why I think they weren’t very popular or well-received & plummeted ratings even further is that they were ridiculously over the top with the plot/s, they were all over the place & “choppy” as far as flow, and were destructive to the character of Crockett.

The bizarre/shock value method (which is what those episodes were) of trying to recapture viewers failed. But, to each his or her own...for those that like those episodes, go for it!  

[Robbie C.]

I think DJ in particular was pretty much done with it, and EJO was starting to look bored as well. They'd never been good at adding characters, either, which is something you had to do even then if you wanted a series to linger. Losing Zito threw the show out of internal balance in many ways, and once it really become the Sonny Crockett show the entire thing hung on DJ's interest (or lack thereof). But that's a discussion for another thread, probably. 

[vicegirl85]

15 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

I find the Burnett episodes very interesting explorations of the toll long-term undercover operations combined with trauma (both physical and mental/emotional) could take on someone. Someone doesn't like that...that's fine. But it doesn't automatically follow that because someone doesn't like the episodes they're bad. They were on the whole well-written, shot very well, and acted well in the bargain. They also managed to hold together for a multi-episode arc...something Vice honestly had a great deal of trouble doing.

I agree with this judgment, and also Robbie C.'s comment that I didn't quote, re:  DJ was anxious to "strike while the iron was hot" and reach for the brass ring of success on the big screen that had eluded him for nearly 20 years.  According to statements he has made, he had been unable to commit to several projects during MV's run because of the shooting schedule and time constraints around the show.  Some of those projects did very well and the boosted the careers of the actors who did get the roles.  EJO's contract allowed him to take outside projects and he had more control over his work outside of MV. 

DJ's success as Sonny Crockett gave him opportunities but also contractually constrained his outside projects, especially after the show became ever more surely "the Sonny Crockett show."  His movie career never gained him the acting acclaim he hoped for, but he has continued to work steadily for the most part.  And with the only other network TV series he did (Nash Bridges), he had (a high degree of) ownership, so that he had more control over nearly every aspect.  

I watched MV during the initial airing of the Burnett saga, and truthfully as an adult fan, I enjoyed it (despite some of the necessary suspension of disbelief).  It was well-done for the most part IMO, and hung together well (kind of amazing really, when one considers that each episode had a different director).

Ratings for MV had already been declining before mid-season of S4, some time before Sheena Easton was brought in as Sonny's love interest.  The majority of S5 felt like a last-ditch effort by the production company to make it to 100 episodes (the magic number for syndication at the time).  No one will ever convince me that anyone (on the production side) connected with MV wanted to continue the show after 5 seasons.  Likewise I think both DJ and EJO wanted out.  

But for me, the Burnett arc had energy and some of the magic of S1 and S2.  It also laid some ground for the ultimate ending of Freefall. 

[Augusta]

I didn't like it.  Literally, the only scene in the entire Burnett arc I did like was the way Burnett/Crockett walked into the police building with Peter Gabriel's song guiding him like a lost little girl.  
From my youthful fan point of view, I was not buying it at all that such a partnership of two cops would come to a duel and takeover of a crime syndicate----BLOW on THAT candle!
But from a grownup perspective too, I couldn't see the justification in corrupting a character that a show's creators invested YEARS making the audience love unconditionally for being UNcorruptable.  What's the point, or need?  The same thing was done with Mr Phelps in the Mission Impossible movie, take the character fans know as beyond corruptible, and stain him---why?  Lurid fascination, or do the Dick Wolf people simply have a hang-up against "truly good cop" as a script character?  So, even if it's for just three episodes,... they have to soil Crockett.  

JAG (another personal favorite of mine, but for reasons and characteristics that are light years different from Miami Vice), kept itself going for nine seasons, and I think only the ninth season felt poor.  It lived through a wild path of cultural/social changes in American and global attitudes towards the military, but its production team retained mostly the same personnel, and their skill kept the show solid--which in turn keeps its actors happy to keep acting their lines with commitment.  Heck, no performer should like repeatedly coming to work if your workplace is getting dry and less intelligently-managed with each new year.  
Same is a fact with Vice.

Miami Vice would have gone on as long as the technical team that created it had stuck around to keep it going in the direction they know how it's done.  I don't think we need coke specifically to keep the show going, or aqua-turquiose colors to keep it exciting.  It simply needed to stay focused on the city of Miami, WHATEVER Miami selects as its new illegal drug and new fashions and new party trends next year.  Its pulse was inspired by the fascination with "music-as-a-mood", and we know that music fascination in our culture grew and evolved, but never went away. 
I could actually picture 50-cents Jackson the creator of Power, inserting his kind of villain into the Miami Vice episodes, as the gangster who defines crime in 2020.  In the city of Miami, a "Ghost" would have worked fine in recurring episodes.  I think Miami Vice's original technical staff would have reflected whatever evolution Miami slowly experienced, and it would have stayed thrilling until Miami itself became a boring place (has it ever?  Even today in 2021?).  

[vicegirl85]

I agree with some of this--relating to if the original creative team had stuck with the show, could it have continued?  The constant revolving door of writers, directors, and producers (for me) didn't help.  I definitely think there were pathways that could have made a longer run possible.  But nearly every step that was taken insured the opposite.  MV was on life support before the end of S4, and S5 only happened (IMO) in order to provide a sufficient number of episodes that NBC could make money by syndicating it.

However, I disagree that Crockett had previously been painted as an incorruptible character.  He hadn't given in to temptation before Deliver Us From Evil, but from the earliest episodes he had confronted the possibility of losing his compass in the undercover life.  He had watched a number of people he'd known as "the good guys" fall into that trap, and he knew very well that it could happen to him. 

When Hackman killed Caitlin, he lost his moorings.  He blamed himself that Hackman was even free.  He was vulnerable in a way that he'd never been before, and when he found himself in strange surroundings, following a head injury and amnesia, he reacted in the way the strangers around him indicated they expected.  He did this in order to survive, and not because he had lost his mind. 

Now, was all of this completely realistic?  No.  But Crockett has previously been painted as someone who has a gift for leadership, so I would expect that he would be successful at whatever endeavor he took on.

I also agree with those who say he would never have been taken back on the undercover team or permitted to carry a gun as a police officer.  Could he have ridden a desk job as a police officer?  For me, doubtful but maybe possible?  But more than that, No..  Too much water under the bridge.

[Augusta]

3 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

I agree with some of this--relating to if the original creative team had stuck with the show, could it have continued?  The constant revolving door of writers, directors, and producers (for me) didn't help.  I definitely think there were pathways that could have made a longer run possible.  But nearly every step that was taken insured the opposite.  MV was on life support before the end of S4, and S5 only happened (IMO) in order to provide a sufficient number of episodes that NBC could make money by syndicating it.

However, I disagree that Crockett had previously been painted as an incorruptible character.  He hadn't given in to temptation before Deliver Us From Evil, but from the earliest episodes he had confronted the possibility of losing his compass in the undercover life.  He had watched a number of people he'd known as "the good guys" fall into that trap, and he knew very well that it could happen to him. 

When Hackman killed Caitlin, he lost his moorings.  He blamed himself that Hackman was even free.  He was vulnerable in a way that he'd never been before, and when he found himself in strange surroundings, following a head injury and amnesia, he reacted in the way the strangers around him indicated they expected.  He did this in order to survive, and not because he had lost his mind. 

Now, was all of this completely realistic?  No.  But Crockett has previously been painted as someone who has a gift for leadership, so I would expect that he would be successful at whatever endeavor he took on.

I also agree with those who say he would never have been taken back on the undercover team or permitted to carry a gun as a police officer.  Could he have ridden a desk job as a police officer?  For me, doubtful but maybe possible?  But more than that, No..  Too much water under the bridge.

Some good points there, about him not being allowed back in the specialized law enforcement if it were closer to real life.  There would have been room for some interesting (and original?) script writing if we spent several subsequent episodes watching Crockett in hospital-then-home-then-desk duty, struggling to be convinced by Tubbs and the team that he CAN return to their fold.  Several episodes allowing Gina/Trudy/Switek to rule the cases, would give those actors room to strengthen their fanbase. I think that would have been some cool tv watching, maybe never before tried that way in cop shows before.  

But I think Crockett's (and Tubbs') characters ARE established as uncorruptable, for exactly the reasons you just mentioned.... for the fact that they DO look in the mirror and question if they can keep it together in their conscience, question who they are.  
I heard a doctor explain to students once, that the guy that looks in the mirror from time to time and says "what am I doing---is this right---I must be losing my mind"... has just proven without knowing it, that he's sane.  Apparently the actual insane or corrupted mind simply makes his decisions, comes up with his solutions, and never ever asks for a second opinion inside his own mind...because in his mind there's no need, and it's all correct.

Because they question where they're going, or momentarily doubt the turn they just took or the choice they made to trust the wrong claim from a friend, they aren't ever going to take some of a cut and smile about it.  I think that "reads" to the audience over time as, uncorruptable.  And it an assumption that spreads to the other members of the team.  Even though you've never seen Trudy or Switek being tested, you have a confidence that even if someone held Trudy's parents hostage somewhere for information, Trudy would rather do something stupid like taking a gun and trying to rescue them alone, than to leak police info that the criminals want her to obtain.

Or, LOL, maybe I have the perception all wrong, and I'd make a lousy cop.  

[ViceFanMan]

4 hours ago, Augusta said:

Some good points there, about him not being allowed back in the specialized law enforcement if it were closer to real life.  There would have been room for some interesting (and original?) script writing if we spent several subsequent episodes watching Crockett in hospital-then-home-then-desk duty, struggling to be convinced by Tubbs and the team that he CAN return to their fold.  Several episodes allowing Gina/Trudy/Switek to rule the cases, would give those actors room to strengthen their fanbase. I think that would have been some cool tv watching, maybe never before tried that way in cop shows before.  

But I think Crockett's (and Tubbs') characters ARE established as uncorruptable, for exactly the reasons you just mentioned.... for the fact that they DO look in the mirror and question if they can keep it together in their conscience, question who they are.  
I heard a doctor explain to students once, that the guy that looks in the mirror from time to time and says "what am I doing---is this right---I must be losing my mind"... has just proven without knowing it, that he's sane.  Apparently the actual insane or corrupted mind simply makes his decisions, comes up with his solutions, and never ever asks for a second opinion inside his own mind...because in his mind there's no need, and it's all correct.

Because they question where they're going, or momentarily doubt the turn they just took or the choice they made to trust the wrong claim from a friend, they aren't ever going to take some of a cut and smile about it.  I think that "reads" to the audience over time as, uncorruptable.  And it an assumption that spreads to the other members of the team.  Even though you've never seen Trudy or Switek being tested, you have a confidence that even if someone held Trudy's parents hostage somewhere for information, Trudy would rather do something stupid like taking a gun and trying to rescue them alone, than to leak police info that the criminals want her to obtain.

Or, LOL, maybe I have the perception all wrong, and I'd make a lousy cop.  

Good points! And I think they took Crockett’s character well beyond corrupt, or he made one bad decision after being tempted with something...they made him a gun-wielding killer, with no thought, feeling, regret, or care. Even Crockett as ‘Burnett’ before the so-called memory loss, didn’t  operate like that...so why would ‘he’ suddenly become that now?

The writers & producers went so ridiculously overboard with the destruction of Crockett, & the (to be blunt) stupidity of the plot, that ratings sunk even lower (and they were already bad before the Burnett episodes), and I think most die hard fans sadly were finally done. 

[Robbie C.]

4 hours ago, Augusta said:

Some good points there, about him not being allowed back in the specialized law enforcement if it were closer to real life.  There would have been room for some interesting (and original?) script writing if we spent several subsequent episodes watching Crockett in hospital-then-home-then-desk duty, struggling to be convinced by Tubbs and the team that he CAN return to their fold.  Several episodes allowing Gina/Trudy/Switek to rule the cases, would give those actors room to strengthen their fanbase. I think that would have been some cool tv watching, maybe never before tried that way in cop shows before.  

But I think Crockett's (and Tubbs') characters ARE established as uncorruptable, for exactly the reasons you just mentioned.... for the fact that they DO look in the mirror and question if they can keep it together in their conscience, question who they are.  
I heard a doctor explain to students once, that the guy that looks in the mirror from time to time and says "what am I doing---is this right---I must be losing my mind"... has just proven without knowing it, that he's sane.  Apparently the actual insane or corrupted mind simply makes his decisions, comes up with his solutions, and never ever asks for a second opinion inside his own mind...because in his mind there's no need, and it's all correct.

Because they question where they're going, or momentarily doubt the turn they just took or the choice they made to trust the wrong claim from a friend, they aren't ever going to take some of a cut and smile about it.  I think that "reads" to the audience over time as, uncorruptable.  And it an assumption that spreads to the other members of the team.  Even though you've never seen Trudy or Switek being tested, you have a confidence that even if someone held Trudy's parents hostage somewhere for information, Trudy would rather do something stupid like taking a gun and trying to rescue them alone, than to leak police info that the criminals want her to obtain.

Or, LOL, maybe I have the perception all wrong, and I'd make a lousy cop.  

By the time these episodes came along, they were NEVER going to switch the focus away from Sonny Crocket and (to a lesser extent) Rico Tubbs. That ship had sailed long before this.

And no, Sonny certainly was never established as incorruptible. If he was, then the tension we saw in Heart of Darkness never would have happened. Hackman wouldn't have happened. That doesn't mean that he was dirty, but he also wasn't Elliott Ness or Joe Friday. He did bend the rules, pushed too hard, and was often careless about the safety of witnesses and his CIs. And yeah, we saw Trudy tested. Switek, too. Even Gina.

[Jack Gretsky]

On 9/8/2020 at 10:17 PM, Jack Gretsky said:

A strong and vivid season 5 opener.  Suspension of disbelief is required, but isn't it always?  Even the most realistic and down-to-earth dramas are enhanced and stylized dreamscapes in which we watch engrossing characters interact.  I prefer the "normal" MV tales of Crockett & Tubbs investigating a case with its shocking twists and turns, but this almost comic-book like saga of Evil Sonny is enjoyable as well - despite it not being credible in "real" life. 

Sonny looks great with his pulled-back hair and dark suits.  Several people don't seem to like Jon Polito's emotive El Gato, but I enjoyed seeing him here before his excellent run in several Coen brothers films.  Polito played a magnificent gangster in their Miller's Crossing. It's also cool seeing Debra Feuer who played Willem Dafoe's moll in one of my all-time favorites To Live and Die in L.A. Also funny seeing Rockford's "Becker" and Max Headroom; Frewer was amusingly sly. 

Some of the Truman score is good when it's most like Hammer, less so with conventional screechy electric guitar sounds. 

My review from last year still holds.  I also like the "Walk and Talk Like Angels" scene by the pool at night.  Debra Feuer really does "move like quicksilver."