Zito's Death

[Augusta]

3 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Just saw this episode again. John does a fantastic job. In the Heat of the Night was a great, if underrated, show.

I only fault the staff for not keeping the subject of Zito as a running arc through the later Vice seasons.  

In one of the better Season-4 stories, Don's character says a line in response to the suggestion that there might be an information leak in the Vice precinct:  he says (it would have to be the other guy's precinct) "because all the people in here practically BREATH for one another".  That's how tight and bonded the Vice team is mentioned as being,... but they don't always portray themselves enough as being in the scripts.  They lost Zito, murdered on the job---there ought to be an occasional visit to a cemetery, or a glimpse at a goofy picture taken when Zito was among them at a party, and the characters smile or something, in memory of the guy. 
 
Nothing long or sappy.  Just a brief thought, like you do in real life when you've lost a close staff member.  

Would have helped serve as a suitable thumbs up for John's work in the show too.  

John, Stan, Gina and Trudy could have really been filled out to feed Season 4 and 5.  I wish John had stayed on.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Augusta

[fakespyder]

I agree. It would have been cool if Zito was mentioned after Down for the Count. My biggest gripes with the show was how they would leave rich veins of narrative untapped with only rare references to past tragedies.

In season5 there is a scene where Stan, in the midst of his gambling depression, shakes a snow globe and stares at for a moment. I always took that as nod to Larry's snow globe collection in DftC.

[jpaul1]

rewatched both epîsodes. and even if Guzman is strongly suspect, there's no evident proof of it. a cop investigating on the case even saying to Tubbs your buddy did inject himself with all sort of cr..

so yeah i agree on the fact that Guzman is highly suspect. but there's no undisputable proof of it

[Tom]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb jpaul1:

rewatched both epîsodes. and even if Guzman is strongly suspect, there's no evident proof of it. a cop investigating on the case even saying to Tubbs your buddy did inject himself with all sort of cr..

so yeah i agree on the fact that Guzman is highly suspect. but there's no undisputable proof of it

The goons that showed up in the gym to kill Zito at the end were the same Guzman‘s goons as in his house And no cop said Zito injected himself. Only IAD asked Stan if he ever used needles.

So you must either have seen a different show or not watched it carefully enough…?

[Augusta]

8 hours ago, fakespyder said:

I agree. It would have been cool if Zito was mentioned after Down for the Count. My biggest gripes with the show was how they would leave rich veins of narrative untapped with only rare references to past tragedies.

In season5 there is a scene where Stan, in the midst of his gambling depression, shakes a snow globe and stares at for a moment. I always took that as nod to Larry's snow globe collection in DftC.

Right on the Bullseye, fakespyder!  I agree that snowglobe thing was a subtle tap into the character, that only diehard fans of the show might pick up on,...and maybe that's what makes moments like that even COOLER to witness.  That means SOMEBODY on the writers' staff was paying attention to the development of the characters from past seasons.  Somebody.  

Like you said, the resource was there, all through the later seasons, tap-able,... but just not tapped.

 

[Robbie C.]

1 hour ago, Augusta said:

Right on the Bullseye, fakespyder!  I agree that snowglobe thing was a subtle tap into the character, that only diehard fans of the show might pick up on,...and maybe that's what makes moments like that even COOLER to witness.  That means SOMEBODY on the writers' staff was paying attention to the development of the characters from past seasons.  Somebody.  

Like you said, the resource was there, all through the later seasons, tap-able,... but just not tapped.

 

This, sadly, isn't unusual for shows of this period...or for later shows, honestly. There are a handful now that have constant nods to beloved characters who have left, but it's not all that common. Chicago Fire and Hawaii Five-0 did or do this frequently, but like I said it's uncommon enough you tend to remember it when you see it.

As an aside, I find this is more common in shows with essentially a defined end date (like The Shield or Justified). It's easier to do real character development when you know you're not going to have to string a show along for years.

[RedDragon86]

I didn't like how Sonny leaves out Larry's name to his shrink in "Miami Squeeze"

"God, there was such spirit with our unit, between me and Rico and Switek and Gina and Trudy and the Lieutenant" "God, what a team"

This is all they had to write in- "and of course Larry, god bless him"

Edited July 27, 2022 by RedDragon86

[jpaul1]

5 hours ago, Tom said:

The goons that showed up in the gym to kill Zito at the end were the same Guzman‘s goons as in his house And no cop said Zito injected himself. Only IAD asked Stan if he ever used needles.

So you must either have seen a different show or not watched it carefully enough…?

in the version i have the cop describes Zito as a big junkie. He says 'I see. For your govern you buddy used to get high with all kind of drugs'. then Castillo announces with a resigned tone the autopsy report. Saying it was an overdose. So i don't really get how you could drug a trained cop by force, without letting any little trace of blow. not even ligation. if treatened with a gun, then tied to a chair. Zito would have tried to escape during the injection. and there's no ligation trace. So this is what confuses me a little bit. Also when Crockett enters Zito apartment. when he looks at the snow balls collection, he says you live seven years beside a person ,to suddenly realize you didn't know him. So for me there's no undisputable proof of Guzman involvement into Zito's death. I don't know. for me it may be Guzman, the same way it may be not be Guzman. and being feared of needles is not a sufficient argument in saying he couldn't drug himself because of that. junkies aren't into the same world than us. a junkie is ready to anything for his/her dope

Edited July 27, 2022 by jpaul1

[Glades]

I must admit, I also never understood how exactly that was supposed to happen, that the gangsters overdosed Zito without leaving any traces.
Does anyone have a good explanation of how this could have happened? Perhaps Zito was first drugged with a gas that cannot be detected after the fact? Is there such a thing? Any other ideas?

[Tom]

vor 48 Minuten schrieb jpaul1:

in the version i have the cop describes Zito as a big junkie. He says 'I see. For your govern you buddy used to get high with all kind of drugs'. then Castillo announces with a resigned tone the autopsy report. Saying it was an overdose. So i don't really get how you could drug a trained cop by force, without letting any little trace of blow. not even ligation. if treatened with a gun, then tied to a chair. Zito would have tried to escape during the injection. and there's no ligation trace. So this is what confuses me a little bit. Also when Crockett enters Zito apartment. when he looks at the snow balls collection, he says you live seven years beside a person ,to suddenly realize you didn't know him. So for me there's no undisputable proof of Guzman involvement into Zito's death. I don't know. for me it may be Guzman, the same way it may be not be Guzman. and being feared of needles is not a sufficient argument in saying he couldn't drug himself because of that. junkies aren't into the same world than us. a junkie is ready to anything for his/her dope

I don´t know what you are confused about. Zito died of an overdose and the needle stuck in his arm, but Guzman´s goons applied the needle to him by brute force. But this force could not be proven on Zito´s body (maybe they wore gloves), thus Castillo reported that "his death will go in his file as an overdose unless we bring new evidence"

Zito was an alcoholic earlier, but got clean and attended AA regularly. Stan told this to IAD who investigated Zito´s death. And for IAD the easy version was that someone who was an ex-alcoholic also could have taken other drugs but they only insiuated that  - which led Stan to tell them go to hell (There is only one episode version and no cop in this episode called Larry a big junkie. That´s simply your fantasy). But we as viewers always knew that Zito was clean, afraid of needles (Tubbs mentioned that he even passed out when he should donate blood), Guzman´s goons did it and they were all brought to justice and killed, so none of your conclusions and plot summaries is correct. 

 

[Miami Beau]

3 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

I didn't like how Sonny leaves out Larry's name to his shrink in "Miami Squeeze"

"God, there was such spirit with our unit, between me and Rico and Switek and Gina and Trudy and the Lieutenant" "God, what a team"

This is all they had to write in- "and of course Larry, god bless him"

I was reading through this thread and was just about to post this. One of my biggest gripes with the show. Only because like you said, it would of been easy for someone just to add Larry’s name in the script. Hell, couldn’t Don of just ad-libbed in that moment? At least we got the snow globe moment later on with Switek. 

[Tom]

vor 52 Minuten schrieb Glades:

I must admit, I also never understood how exactly that was supposed to happen, that the gangsters overdosed Zito without leaving any traces.
Does anyone have a good explanation of how this could have happened? Perhaps Zito was first drugged with a gas that cannot be detected after the fact? Is there such a thing? Any other ideas?

Zito wore a long training jacket. If two goons held him tight and the third injected the needle, you would not see any bruises. I admit that is unlikely that Larry would not have fought for his life with all he had, but  from what we SEE in the episode (the 3 Guzman goons we know confronted him in the gym at night after Zito refused to sell Sykes and Guzman lost a lot of money over it) it was clear that he did not kill himself.

And quite frankly: this is action TV and not a medicine seminar. I have never heard anyone complain about the realism in "Bad Timing" where radios, gun handles and other heavy gadgets are smashed in people´s faces without causing any harm, whereas in reality they would have a severe trauma and die on the spot.

[Ferrariman]

3 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

in the version i have the cop describes Zito as a big junkie. He says 'I see. For your govern you buddy used to get high with all kind of drugs'. then Castillo announces with a resigned tone the autopsy report. Saying it was an overdose. So i don't really get how you could drug a trained cop by force, without letting any little trace of blow. not even ligation. if treatened with a gun, then tied to a chair. Zito would have tried to escape during the injection. and there's no ligation trace. So this is what confuses me a little bit. Also when Crockett enters Zito apartment. when he looks at the snow balls collection, he says you live seven years beside a person ,to suddenly realize you didn't know him. So for me there's no undisputable proof of Guzman involvement into Zito's death. I don't know. for me it may be Guzman, the same way it may be not be Guzman. and being feared of needles is not a sufficient argument in saying he couldn't drug himself because of that. junkies aren't into the same world than us. a junkie is ready to anything for his/her dope

Buddy, you're really not getting it.    Castillo was only announcing the results of the autopsy report as an overdose. Which it was, but not by Zito's own hand.   Crockett:  "Larry Zito was no damn junkie!"   Tubbs:  "He was afraid of needles Lieutenant, he fainted when he gave blood"    Zito was killed by Guzman's men!  Nuff said!

[Augusta]

Holy wow--it's still going on, and wild!  

I'm reading this and smiling at my workstation.  Hahaha, 3 people would commonly be needed to hold and overdose a victim,... but overdoes means the victim did it himself,... but 2 guys could do it to him if he had his long training jacket on, and they wore gloves, and glades Crockett and Rico's Zito was a death-by-goons,... and jpaul's and Castillo's Zito was a death-by-junkyism,... but------

My God, this is cracking me up so good, I love it for a Wednesday.  I love this website and all you folks.  I'm gonna be going home on my evening commute, smiling and skipping and handing out weeds (the ones with the little flowers on them that you can pull out of the cracks in the sidewalk), and they'll lock me in Belleview Psychiatric Ward just as soon as I try to kiss the train conductor-----and that's the last you'll hear of me, imprisoned for mentally going flower-child, and it will be all thanks to Zito and you guys and this hilarious thread gone wild.  

Miami Beau and Tom and RedDragon88 and Glades and jpaul and Ferrariman, you guys would make the coolest-kicking clubhouse.  A+++!

[Tom]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Augusta:

Holy wow--it's still going on, and wild!  

I'm reading this and smiling at my workstation.  Hahaha, 3 people would commonly be needed to hold and overdose a victim,... but overdoes means the victim did it himself,... but 2 guys could do it to him if he had his long training jacket on, and they wore gloves, and glades Crockett and Rico's Zito was a death-by-goons,... and jpaul's and Castillo's Zito was a death-by-junkyism,... but------

My God, this is cracking me up so good, I love it for a Wednesday.  I love this website and all you folks.  I'm gonna be going home on my evening commute, smiling and skipping and handing out weeds (the ones with the little flowers on them that you can pull out of the cracks in the sidewalk), and they'll lock me in Belleview Psychiatric Ward just as soon as I try to kiss the train conductor-----and that's the last you'll hear of me, imprisoned for mentally going flower-child, and it will be all thanks to Zito and you guys and this hilarious thread gone wild.  

Miami Beau and Tom and RedDragon88 and Glades and jpaul and Ferrariman, you guys would make the coolest-kicking clubhouse.  A+++!

If you think this was as wild as it gets, wait until jpaul will tell us that the aliens from Missing hours injected the drugs in Zito´s arm, as they also had running bets against Sykes and had to sell all their peanut butter to cover their losses! 

[Robbie C.]

4 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

I didn't like how Sonny leaves out Larry's name to his shrink in "Miami Squeeze"

"God, there was such spirit with our unit, between me and Rico and Switek and Gina and Trudy and the Lieutenant" "God, what a team"

This is all they had to write in- "and of course Larry, god bless him"

Yep, but there's always the chance Sonny left Zito out because he looked down on the tech guys and also because he felt responsible in some way for Zito's death.

I tend to agree that the whole production team by that point had simply forgotten about Zito, but I like to look for deeper reasons for the purposes of stories.

[Robbie C.]

2 hours ago, Glades said:

I must admit, I also never understood how exactly that was supposed to happen, that the gangsters overdosed Zito without leaving any traces.
Does anyone have a good explanation of how this could have happened? Perhaps Zito was first drugged with a gas that cannot be detected after the fact? Is there such a thing? Any other ideas?

There are any number of ways this could have been done, from drugging his water to simply having a big guy sit on his head while they shot him up. Shows in the '80s weren't as off-the-wall as they are now when it comes to exotic drugs with a ten minute half-life and all that. If he'd been training in the gym (any kind of sparring), he'd have bruises or they'd be expected and not remarked on. And if someone put a solid sleeper hold on him it wouldn't necessarily leave any traces (especially if the ME wasn't looking for that kind of thing). All they had to do to shoot him up is immobilize him or knock him out.

[Robbie C.]

10 minutes ago, Tom said:

If you think this was as wild as it gets, wait until jpaul will tell us that the aliens from Missing hours injected the drugs in Zito´s arm, as they also had running bets against Sykes and had to sell all their peanut butter to cover their losses! 

No...It was Hackman. Just because we never see him doesn't mean he wasn't there.

[RedDragon86]

1 minute ago, Robbie C. said:

Yep, but there's always the chance Sonny left Zito out because he looked down on the tech guys and also because he felt responsible in some way for Zito's death.

I tend to agree that the whole production team by that point had simply forgotten about Zito, but I like to look for deeper reasons for the purposes of stories.

He still should have mentioned him though, out of respect. I see what you mean about the tech guys bit but still they were fellow detectives and buddies, they went though shootouts together and Larry had Sonny's back at the end of "Definitely Miami"

If he did feel partly responsible for his death he could have delivered his name in an emotional way, like he choked up for a moment. We would have really appreciated that moment. 

 

[Robbie C.]

1 minute ago, RedDragon86 said:

He still should have mentioned him though, out of respect. I see what you mean about the tech guys bit but still they were fellow detectives and buddies, they went though shootouts together and Larry had Sonny's back at the end of "Definitely Miami"

If he did feel partly responsible for his death he could have delivered his name in an emotional way, like he choked up for a moment. We would have really appreciated that moment. 

 

I'm not disagreeing at all. I worked Larry into quite a few of the Task Force stories as something Sonny felt deep regret for, and I think it could have played a much larger role in his on-screen development than it did. More respect for Sonny's Vietnam service and some showing of regret or remorse for both Zito and Barbara would have made him a much deeper character, but they never took that path.

I think the episode dialog had more to do with highlighting who was still on the show. Doesn't make it a good move, but it's what they went with. And it's possible Zito was written in originally and taken out in revisions. We can't know.

[Tom]

vor 35 Minuten schrieb Robbie C.:

There are any number of ways this could have been done, from drugging his water to simply having a big guy sit on his head while they shot him up. Shows in the '80s weren't as off-the-wall as they are now when it comes to exotic drugs with a ten minute half-life and all that. If he'd been training in the gym (any kind of sparring), he'd have bruises or they'd be expected and not remarked on. And if someone put a solid sleeper hold on him it wouldn't necessarily leave any traces (especially if the ME wasn't looking for that kind of thing). All they had to do to shoot him up is immobilize him or knock him out.

In the teaser of Down for the count 1 two of Guzman´s goons easily fixated a trained boxer by the shoulders before Guzman smashed his hand with a statue and there was no bruise visible from that grab.  They could have done the same with Zito. I don´t get what is the mystery here with holding a trained cop (and Zito was not a physically strong guy) without a trace ....

Edited July 27, 2022 by Tom

[Robbie C.]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

In the teaser of Down for the count 1 two of Guzman´s goons easily fixated a trained boxer by the shoulders before Guzman smashed his hand with a statue and there was no bruise visible from that grab.  They could have done the same with Zito. I don´t get what is the mystery here with holding a trained cop (and Zito was not a physically strong guy) without a trace ....

I don't happen to think there's a mystery at all. I also don't happen to really care how they did it. Just putting some possibilities out there for those who asked.

[Miami Beau]

4 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Yep, but there's always the chance Sonny left Zito out because he looked down on the tech guys and also because he felt responsible in some way for Zito's death.

I tend to agree that the whole production team by that point had simply forgotten about Zito, but I like to look for deeper reasons for the purposes of stories.

Interesting point buddie. In terms of storyline, Crockett and Zito never really had a strong bond. Yet Crockett and Switek became closer as the seasons went on. Maybe Crockett felt a bit hurt when Zito rejected his invite to the St. Vitus Dance in Made For Eachother. Zito preferred to sit by himself in the OCB offices all night rather than hang with his colleague. I can see Crockett from that point onwards, deciding to treat Zito like a colleague rather than a partner. 
Crockett did consider Switek as his partner and this was confirmed in Hard Knocks. So wrapping everything up, I can kinda see why Crockett in storyline terms, never used Zito’s name in his therapy session. 

Also in DFTC (Part2), Crockett admits, he never really knew Zito in personal terms yet they had been working together for over 5 years by that point. So their bond and friendship never really blossom even after such a long period working together. 

In reality, Larry’s name very well could have been originally in the script and maybe removed? Many possibilities. 

[Robbie C.]

15 hours ago, Miami Beau said:

Interesting point buddie. In terms of storyline, Crockett and Zito never really had a strong bond. Yet Crockett and Switek became closer as the seasons went on. Maybe Crockett felt a bit hurt when Zito rejected his invite to the St. Vitus Dance in Made For Eachother. Zito preferred to sit by himself in the OCB offices all night rather than hang with his colleague. I can see Crockett from that point onwards, deciding to treat Zito like a colleague rather than a partner. 
Crockett did consider Switek as his partner and this was confirmed in Hard Knocks. So wrapping everything up, I can kinda see why Crockett in storyline terms, never used Zito’s name in his therapy session. 

Also in DFTC (Part2), Crockett admits, he never really knew Zito in personal terms yet they had been working together for over 5 years by that point. So their bond and friendship never really blossom even after such a long period working together. 

In reality, Larry’s name very well could have been originally in the script and maybe removed? Many possibilities. 

From looking at some of the draft scripts, wholesale name changes were not at all uncommon, so the removal of one name wouldn't be out of character at all. Especially since I don't know that the Diehl departure was necessarily amicable.

And while Zito was still alive, there was a marked distance between Crockett and Stan. The bonding bit came later, I think once the producers realized if they didn't do something Stan was going to be the perennial "third wheel" in any episode. Prior to that, I think Crockett's comment about Zito could have been extended to Stan as well. They wouldn't have bonded simply because they worked different social levels and case profiles (don't forget Stan in his leather bar get-up). When Vice was three distinct teams there was a marked division of labor. Crockett and Tubbs mostly got the high-profile stuff, Gina and Trudy took the streets and "arm candy" support, and Stan and Larry drew surveillance and the lower-brow stuff. Once Zito was killed off the balance changed and they had to reshuffle.

[apocalypse]

On 7/27/2022 at 5:44 PM, RedDragon86 said:

I didn't like how Sonny leaves out Larry's name to his shrink in "Miami Squeeze"

"God, there was such spirit with our unit, between me and Rico and Switek and Gina and Trudy and the Lieutenant" "God, what a team"

This is all they had to write in- "and of course Larry, god bless him"

There are very few references to any of the old episodes, anywhere. 

Same actors a lot but they never played their previous role.

Lombard was the only "comeback crook" (I think) in the later seasons.

I recall Stan said to Rico in some episode "Do you think it wasn't bad enough for me to lose Larry. But I didn't quit". Can't remember where it was though... maybe in Red Tape when Rico was "quitting".

But other than that, they never mentioned Zito even once. They never mention the previous characters, either. Not even Hackman after he was killed. At least Sonny had a few flashbacks of Caitlin in Burnett trilogy. But I don't recall her being mentioned anywhere after her death. It was weird.