MV relevance then vs. now

[S.FL84]

It seems to me the same thing that made MV so relevant 1984-86 was the fact the MV stories were what was really happening on the streets.  At least as far as American TV audiences were concerned.  No other cop show at that point had glammed drugs & violence like MV was doing.  Mix ^ that with equally relevant music and it was like an MTV music video come to life. . 

Nowadays there's YouTube going in 1,000+ different directions at once.  I'll say it again.. I am sooooo glad to have been there in 1984-86 every Friday night along with everyone else in the wonderful USA watching an incredible show called MIAMI VICE. 

http://ew.com/article/2012/01/21/michael-mann-interview-luck-hbo/

 

https://tv.avclub.com/how-miami-vice-launched-the-80s-on-tv-then-died-with-1798232906

 

I really wish we could get someone who actually lived in Miami in 1985 & see what it was like there then.  Although COCAINE COWBOYS did that to a degree. 

 

Edited July 4, 2018 by S.FL84

[BunMVO]

29 minutes ago, S.FL84 said:

It seems to me the same thing that made MV so relevant 1984-86 was the fact the MV stories were what was really happening on the streets.  At least as far as American TV audiences were concerned.  No other cop show at that point had glammed drugs & violence like MV was doing.  Mix ^ that with equally relevant music and it was like an MTV music video come to life. . 

Nowadays there's YouTube going in 1,000+ different directions at once.  I'll say it again.. I am sooooo glad to have been there in 1984-86 every Friday night along with everyone else in the wonderful USA watching an incredible show called MIAMI VICE. 

http://ew.com/article/2012/01/21/michael-mann-interview-luck-hbo/

 

https://tv.avclub.com/how-miami-vice-launched-the-80s-on-tv-then-died-with-1798232906

 

I really wish we could get someone who actually lived in Miami in 1985 & see what it was like there then.  Although COCAINE COWBOYS did that to a degree. 

 

Yeah, that was part of the appeal. The "ripped from the headlines" factor. It was as relevant as Scarface (the Cuban crimewave in Miami). I was only born in 1997 but my mom was in her 20s in the mid-80s and she moved down to Florida and lived there on and off from 1984-1986 - the Tampa area. She said it was pretty nuts and she would never go near Miami because it was perceived as such a crazy, crime-ridden city.

[miamijimf]

Good articles S.FL84.  I lived and worked in Miami from 84 to 89.  I describe some of my experiences as well as what was happening in my book.  It was written mainly for my friends and family and to contribute to the history of my home town.  The PDF version is $8.99 and when one sells I contribute to this web site.  Go to the last posts at http://miamiviceonline.com/index.php?/topic/9484-buy-my-ebook-and-contribute-to-miamiviceonline/&page=3

 

Edited July 4, 2018 by miamijimf

[S.FL84]

Good point.  There's a CC outtake where Rivi Ayala retells a convo he had w/ a german tourist at Disneyland in the mid 80's when the tourist finds out he (Ayala) is from Miami he remarks "Ohh jeez Miami?? I would never go there, its soo dangerous".  Little did he know he was talking to one of THE most horrific killers on the streets of Miami who worked directly for Griselda Blanco participating in many, many murders.

The general American public was fairly innocent in those days eager to get a taste of the dark underworld of Miami.  Now its all the Illumenati controlled media saturates us all w/.  Its odd how there was actually more shootings and mass murders then than now.

The only problem I see is as they said in CC.  MV created the mental image of what Miami is supposed to be in many people's minds and they now constantly try to recreate what MV started.  Miami was a better place when it was what it naturally was not what a television show thought it is supposed to be.  The artificial idea has replaced what is natural.  This explains alot of natural MV locations being destroyed and replaced w/ television inspired artificial tv locations by people w/ too much money and too little brains.

Edited July 4, 2018 by S.FL84

[S.FL84]

2 hours ago, miamijimf said:

Good articles S.FL84.  I lived and worked in Miami from 84 to 89.  I describe some of my experiences as well as what was happening in my book.  It was written mainly for my friends and family and to contribute to the history of my home town.  The PDF version is $8.99 and when one sells I contribute to this web site.  Go to the last posts at http://miamiviceonline.com/index.php?/topic/9484-buy-my-ebook-and-contribute-to-miamiviceonline/&page=3

 

Well Jim all I can say is I'm truly envious of you.  I'd love to have your memories.  It must've been incredible in 1985 to do a normal everyday thing like go to grocery store and realize Crockett or Castillo could've, in theory, shopped at the same store you were. 

There was an underground, secretive aire about MTV and MV then.  There was still an establishment to rebel against and our parents were there guarding things.  Now we're the parents and we're the Crocketts and Tubbs.  Television was a good influence...then.  Now its just depravity (Modern Family, for example).  I never thought I'd be the one thinking and saying conservative things like I am now. 

Now I see, as we all do, the result of snorting coke and partying all night...a broken down old mind and body.  The very things that Crockett and Tubbs were protecting us from turns out really are bad. 

Funny (not ha-ha funny) how in real life Don Johnson was a major alcoholic and coke addict up until he landed the role of his lifetime.

 

https://people.com/archive/miami-vice-and-a-good-woman-save-bad-boy-don-johnson-vol-22-no-23/

Edited July 4, 2018 by S.FL84

[S.FL84]

I've said this before elsewhere...It just amazes that in 1985-86 anyone w/ a 10in b&w Sears TV w/ rabbit ears could tune in an watch a show that a 72in convex screen plasma television w/ global satellite linked couldn't come close to today showing. 

[pahonu]

2 hours ago, pmconroy said:

 She said it was pretty nuts and she would never go near Miami because it was perceived as such a crazy, crime-ridden city.

I mentioned in another post here about Cuban coffee that a friend of mine from work is of Cuban ancestry.  She showed me how to make cafecito years ago.  Her family came to the US in the early 60's and lived in Miami as countless others did.  I'm note sure exactly which neighborhood, but she was born there.  Anyway, her family left the area in the early 80's after 20 years, when she was in elementary school.  They did it to get away from what they perceived as an increasingly dangerous place to live.  Anecdotal evidence for sure, but Miami was in a pretty rough place for awhile.  The show glamorized it all, but it had some tough times.  She also joked that her parents later commented that they left one crime-ridden place only to arrive in LA as the gang violence began to escalate in the late 80's and early 90's.  I told her, coincidentally, my parents had said something similar to me in the past.  They left Quebec, Canada in 1965 as the separatist movement heated up and some violent clashes occurred.  They arrived in LA just months before the Watts riots and the civil unrest of the late 60's associated with the Civil Rights Movement and Vietnam.  Both families chose to stay here, for what it's worth.

Cocaine Cowboys does a pretty good job depicting that era in Miami, according to my friend's parents.

[airtommy]

12 hours ago, S.FL84 said:

http://ew.com/article/2012/01/21/michael-mann-interview-luck-hbo/

Good interview with Michael Mann.  I hadn't seen it before.  Here is Part 2 of that interview:

http://ew.com/article/2012/01/28/michael-mann-crime-story-robbery-homicide-division-luck/

[Daytona74]

I think what is really difficult to achieve these days, and S.FL84 hinted at it, is the fact that there aren't these big, crowd-unifying media events anymore. There are many dozen TV  shows that come out every year now, and maybe you'll find yourself becoming a fan of Fargo or Breaking Bad or whatever else. But it's all so fragmented. You will always find a few people agreeing with you that they are great shows, but neither of those shows really condense and galvanise the spirit of their time the way that some TV shows of the 80s and even the 70s were able to do.

For example, for much of the early to mid-80s, THE biggest American TV show here in Germany was Dallas. And then also at some point Dynasty to a lesser extent. But really Dallas was THE cultural reference point for us. And you had ratings that just wouldn't be possible today, with as many as ten or twenty percent of the entire German population tuning in for particularly noteworthy episodes.

Miami Vice as a reference point for youth culture though enjoyed pretty brief popularity. The pilot aired on Germany's top channel ARD here in early December of 1986. Throughout 1987, the bulk of S1 and S2 episodes were shown, and the show was really, really popular among teenagers like myself. But then in January of 1988, the first few S3 episodes aired, and its popularity began to wane almost instantly. I remember distinctly that by the summer of 1988, nobody wanted to be caught dead wearing Ray-Bans or Persols and a pastel blazer. From late 1988, some regional affiliates of ARD were rerunning S1/S2 episodes plus a few previously unaired S1/S2 ones, but the height of its popularity had well and truly come and gone by that point.

What's ironic is that even here in Germany, people who weren't around in the 80s think that all we did was run around in pastel linen suits wearing Wayfarers for the entire decade. When in reality, that seemingly iconic look was only something you could get away with in the summer of 1987

Edited July 5, 2018 by Daytona74

[BunMVO]

2 hours ago, Daytona74 said:

I think what is really difficult to achieve these days, and S.FL84 hinted at it, is the fact that there aren't these big, crowd-unifying media events anymore. There are many dozen TV  shows that come out every year now, and maybe you'll find yourself becoming a fan of Fargo or Breaking Bad or whatever else. But it's all so fragmented. You will always find a few people agreeing with you that they are great shows, but neither of those shows really condense and galvanise the spirit of their time the way that some TV shows of the 80s and even the 70s were able to do.

For example, for much of the early to mid-80s, THE biggest American TV show here in Germany was Dallas. And then also at some point Dynasty to a lesser extent. But really Dallas was THE cultural reference point for us. And you had ratings that just wouldn't be possible today, with as many as ten or twenty percent of the entire German population tuning in for particularly noteworthy episodes.

Miami Vice as a reference point for youth culture though enjoyed pretty brief popularity. The pilot aired on Germany's top channel ARD here in early December of 1986. Throughout 1987, the bulk of S1 and S2 episodes were shown, and the show was really, really popular among teenagers like myself. But then in January of 1988, the first few S3 episodes aired, and its popularity began to wane almost instantly. I remember distinctly that by the summer of 1988, nobody wanted to be caught dead wearing Ray-Bans or Persols and a pastel blazer. From late 1988, some regional affiliates of ARD were rerunning S1/S2 episodes plus a few previously unaired S1/S2 ones, but the height of its popularity had well and truly come and gone by that point.

What's ironic is that even here in Germany, people who weren't around in the 80s think that all we did was run around in pastel linen suits wearing Wayfarers for the entire decade. When in reality, that seemingly iconic look was only something you could get away with in the summer of 1987

It's sad that the impact was truly so brief. Maybe if the direction hadn't changed so much in Season 3, things would have been different. It is funny how the younger generation like myself who weren't even around back then get the feeling that the whole decade began and ended with drowning in pastel colors and kickass synth music. That's the way Miami Vice depicted it and it was such a definitive piece of media for the time.

[pahonu]

1 hour ago, pmconroy said:

It's sad that the impact was truly so brief. Maybe if the direction hadn't changed so much in Season 3, things would have been different. It is funny how the younger generation like myself who weren't even around back then get the feeling that the whole decade began and ended with drowning in pastel colors and kickass synth music. That's the way Miami Vice depicted it and it was such a definitive piece of media for the time.

It was pretty brief in the US also.  I was just starting high school when it debuted and it was HUGE!  By time I graduated, it was still on the air, but no one talked about it anymore.  I would agree it was about two seasons of intense popularity.  The pastels disappeared pretty quickly too, but I recall a short period of neon colors being fashionable.  Brief, but impactful, I would say it was.

[Daytona74]

yeah, neon colors were the next fad here too after the brief popularity of pastels. A hot item to have here as a kid in 1988 or 1989 was a certain style of neon colored windbreaker, which usually came in neon green, yellow or red. I also remember I had neon green swim shorts some time around age 15 that would just look completely ridiculous by today's standards, but they were simply the thing to have back then.

I think Miami Vice in season five sort of tried to go a bit towards that new popular neon look in some episodes, but never quite nailed it, like so many things they no longer nailed in S5.

Anyway, no, pastels were definitely not what the entire 80s looked like. Kind of a nice thing if they would have, but oh well...

As for the music, maybe it was just my group of friends back then, but my impression as a teenager in the late 80s was that hard rock and heavy metal were a much bigger thing for us than the synth music that our older brothers had listened to just five years before... I seem to remember that there was definitely a resurgence of that kind of music among teenagers at the time.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Daytona74

[S.FL84]

I think the bigger point is for a brief period of time MV touched a nerve in American culture that no show has before or since.  Television, music, videos, clothes, cars, boats, architecture, hair (even facial), etc..  No TV show has ever done that.  It was just the right show at the right time. I'm just glad I was around then and still feel the thrill of the show bringing to life the incredible soundtrack like The Church, Dire Straits, Glen Frey, etc., etc.. 

[Daytona74]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb S.FL84:

I think the bigger point is for a brief period of time MV touched a nerve in American culture that no show has before or since.  Television, music, videos, clothes, cars, boats, architecture, hair (even facial), etc..  No TV show has ever done that.  It was just the right show at the right time.  

Don Johnson said himself that Miami Vice took advantage of the spirit of the affluent mid-80s Reagan era where everything was about the wealthy spending money on flashy luxury items. And of course that Miami really was a hub for the drug and arms trade in real life.

It was a hedonistic time when the Baby Boomers like Al Lombard and yuppies like Charlie Glide became rich in the stock market or doing illegal business and wanted to show off their wealth.

Then in 1987 you had the stock market crash, and a more general economic downturn in the early 90s, where people were really struggling to make ends meet. I was an exchange student in the U.S. in 1991-92, which was when ordinary people had it the hardest, and a show like Miami Vice simply no longer resonated with anybody. All the extravagance and the showy display of wealth on Miami Vice were just not something that people could relate to anymore.

So yeah, Miami Vice was a perfect picture of 80s affluence and decadence, but had no chance of making it past the 80s into the early 90s. Even if Michael Mann and Jan Hammer had stayed on.

 

Edited July 6, 2018 by Daytona74

[BunMVO]

On 7/6/2018 at 5:36 AM, Daytona74 said:

Don Johnson said himself that Miami Vice took advantage of the spirit of the affluent mid-80s Reagan era where everything was about the wealthy spending money on flashy luxury items. And of course that Miami really was a hub for the drug and arms trade in real life.

It was a hedonistic time when the Baby Boomers like Al Lombard and yuppies like Charlie Glide became rich in the stock market or doing illegal business and wanted to show off their wealth.

Then in 1987 you had the stock market crash, and a more general economic downturn in the early 90s, where people were really struggling to make ends meet. I was an exchange student in the U.S. in 1991-92, which was when ordinary people had it the hardest, and a show like Miami Vice simply no longer resonated with anybody. All the extravagance and the showy display of wealth on Miami Vice were just not something that people could relate to anymore.

So yeah, Miami Vice was a perfect picture of 80s affluence and decadence, but had no chance of making it past the 80s into the early 90s. Even if Michael Mann and Jan Hammer had stayed on.

 

This is all a very good point that no one has really brought up before. Thanks for the insight, some of us see the era through rose-tinted glasses

[Vincent Hanna]

On 7/6/2018 at 12:18 AM, S.FL84 said:

I think the bigger point is for a brief period of time MV touched a nerve in American culture that no show has before or since.  Television, music, videos, clothes, cars, boats, architecture, hair (even facial), etc..  No TV show has ever done that.  It was just the right show at the right time. I'm just glad I was around then and still feel the thrill of the show bringing to life the incredible soundtrack like The Church, Dire Straits, Glen Frey, etc., etc.. 

I envy you guys immensely, would've loved to experience MV as it was going on. The TV spot for the pilot with "In the Air Tonight" playing may be the coolest things I've ever seen. Was trying to imagine what it was like watching TV in 1984 and suddenly that ad starts playing, it must've been dumbfounding.

We've supposedly had "revolutionary" Television since then such as The Sopranos and The Wire but don't think anything has been as shocking as Vice. I think MV will always be relevant from a TV/cultural historian point of view, The word Seminal gets thrown around a lot but MiamI Vice definitely is. (Crime Story too). You can't talk about Television as an art-form without mentioning those.

Heard an interview with Michael Mann and he was like "It's not that MiamI Vice was groundbreaking, it's that everything else on at the time was crap

Edited July 8, 2018 by Vincent Hanna

[Daytona74]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Vincent Hanna:

Heard an interview with Michael Mann and he was like "It's not that MiamI Vice was groundbreaking, it's that everything else on at the time was crap

 

I think it was honestly a mixture of both. Miami Vice really looked and felt like no other show on television at the time. The show's "contemporaries" were TV series like The Fall Guy, Magnum P.I., Matlock, Riptide, Dallas and Dynasty. All of which decent shows at some points, but they all followed a certain standardized TV formula that kind of made them all look and feel the same. None of them went out of their way. So in that sense maybe they were crap. But Miami Vice stood out all on its own for the combination of fashion, style, music and big-screen cinematography. All of that had just never been done before on TV, all in one show.

And that is the lasting impact that MV has had on the industry. Virtually every crime drama that came after it borrowed from Miami Vice's groundbreaking approach. They all started making TV shows that looked like one-hour movies.

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Daytona74

[pahonu]

On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 12:58 PM, Daytona74 said:

As for the music, maybe it was just my group of friends back then, but my impression as a teenager in the late 80s was that hard rock and heavy metal were a much bigger thing for us than the synth music that our older brothers had listened to just five years before... I seem to remember that there was definitely a resurgence of that kind of music among teenagers at the time.

I agree with this.  The synth sound predates Miami Vice, with the post-punk/new wave sound.  It continued during the show's years, somewhat, but hard rock became more popular with bands like Guns N' Roses and Bon Jovi.  Bigger heavy metal names like Motley Crue and Metallica came earlier, but they weren't as mainstream.  I also remember at the end of high school in the late 80's starting to see rap artists appear.  I remember a guy having an Ice Cube picture on his binder and not knowing anything about him.

I just read in Rolling Stone this month (with its new giant glossy format) that 2017 was the first year in more than 60 years that some genre of rock music was not the most listened to music in the US.  It was surpassed by R&B.  The last change was from jazz music to rock in the 1950's!

[pahonu]

4 hours ago, Daytona74 said:

 

I think it was honestly a mixture of both. Miami Vice really looked and felt like no other show on television at the time. The show's "contemporaries" were TV series like The Fall Guy, Magnum P.I., Matlock, Riptide, Dallas and Dynasty. All of which decent shows at some points, but they all followed a certain standardized TV formula that kind of made them all look and feel the same. None of them went out of their way. So in that sense maybe they were crap. But Miami Vice stood out all on its own for the combination of fashion, style, music and big-screen cinematography. All of that had just never been done before on TV, all in one show.

And that is the lasting impact that MV has had on the industry. Virtually every crime drama that came after it borrowed from Miami Vice's groundbreaking approach. They all started making TV shows that looked like one-hour movies.

 

I think the use of popular music, rather than instrumental compositions, and the feature-film level cinematography were both revolutionary in television.  They are still the standard in dramatic television today.  While fashion and style were certainly prominent in the show, I think previous shows had some of this.  They were certainly different fashions and styles than the mid 80's, but they were quite current for their era.  That's why some shows look so much more dated than others.  I remember reading that the wardrobe budget for the TV series Dynasty was massive, like MV.  It debuted earlier and WOW does it look dated today.  I love architecture and the Art Deco in MV is awesome as is some of the post-modernist stuff, but they weren't the first show to depict an exotic location like that.  I'm thinking Hawaii Five-O for example. 

[S.FL84]

It all goes back to Brandon Tartikoff's original idea supposedly scrolled on a napkin "MTV cops" to Anthony Yerkovick.  It's why Tartikoff's was head  of NBC, he knew what people wanted to see.  MV was a cool music video come to life but just like music videos you can only watch them for a short period of time.  

[Daytona74]

vor 39 Minuten schrieb pahonu:

I remember reading that the wardrobe budget for the TV series Dynasty was massive, like MV.  It debuted earlier and WOW does it look dated today.

 

Yeah,  Dynasty was always kind of the more exuberant little brother of Dallas . Everything was always a tad more glossy and fancy on Dynasty than on Dallas.

In comparison to Miami Vice, Dynasty was more along the lines of WASP chic, it depicted the lifestyles of stuffy, old-money, corporate America, Republican voting Coloradoans. They didn't drive Ferraris, they had Cadillac Fleetwoods, maybe sometimes a Rolls or a Mercedes SL. The men all wore the same dark tailored suits and the women wore the more toned down, buttoned up Gucci and Chanel pieces (although Joan Collins became known for her "out there" outfits as the series progressed that were sometimes too daft even for Dynasty).

And Dynasty had 100% generic 80s TV production stock music that made it sound no different from The Fall Guy or Knots Landing.

I said WASP chic. Miami Vice was the polar opposite in that respect too. Miami Vice was groundbreaking also in that it had a substantial amount of Latin American actors who didn't just play weird and wonderful Mariachis with big hats. Nowadays with Hispanic and Latin Caribbean culture being a much bigger part of American and Western culture as a whole, people forget that that was not the case in the 70s and 80s. American mainstream television was nearly all-white. Maybe also part black. But Miami Vice became both part of the foundation of the Latin Pop movement of the late 80s that still lasts until today, and a platform for the growing positive representation of Latin American culture in mass media. It didn't even matter that many Hispanic actors played crooks and criminals on Miami Vice. The show gave them more screen time than any other TV drama at the time.

Edward James Olmos is a big campaigner for Hispanic minority rights still today, and I think he, too, said something to that effect in an interview a while ago. I'm a big fan of Latin/Hispanic culture,  so I think that's really a great thing.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Daytona74

[jpaul1]

as Daytona74 stated, the 80s were a money decade. where wall streets traders were kinda deified. and sometimes, something people that don't know the era don't know, it's that there wasn't any social aid at that time. so, it was a kind of 'walk or die' era. so if you create in that era a show, where there will be richmen, it'll automatically attract people. and if you put in it the story of people like you (Colombian drug lords) that have gone from nothing to ultra rich, it will be successful. it hurts to say it, but i think the series popularity has lot to do with the Florida-Colombia drug trafficking, at least at the start. people at that time didn't know much what cocaïne was about. and how destructive its commerce was. Pablo Escobar was a kind of idol during that era. and it took time for the people to realise how evil he was. proof is the GTA Vice city airport has been called Escobar airport. the game was made in 2003, and nobody complained about it. people opinion started to change about Escobar when documentaries spread across the world using internet showing what kind of psychopath he was.

now if MV was born with the interest of the people for rich colombian traffickers, i also think that if the series is still popular today, it's because of Florida, and Miami exceptional locations. i'm trying to find words to desccribe these places, but i just can't. Florida isn't something you describe, it's something you live. with its beaches, its swamps, its turquoise waters, its cultures crossroads.

Maybe that winner deification is what caused MV to end. a deep story about two cops could totally find its audience today. back then with that winner culture, there could have been only one leader/winner. and some DJ during each episode, people in the end saturated. maybe this what caused the series to halt. if you take some series that has/have a very long lifetime like the law and order, or Ein fall für zwei (german series). these series have a very long lifetime but it's not focused on one man. they cleverly switch between several main actors

great thread btw, i learnt lot of things. didn't know DJ was addicted to alcohol. didn't know PMT made songs in the 80s, and didn't know MV ,and The law and order had lot in common neither. i also realised how great actor Bruce Willies was. by playing a disgusting character in MV, and surviving it. now guess what -> No exit

 

[pahonu]

Daytona,

The use of Latino actors was really progressive.  I brought up this general topic to my wife who actually found it interesting!  She was in middle school when MV debuted.  She definitely remembered how influential it was even though she didn't watch it as an 11 year-old girl.  She remembered the music and fashion from the era particularly well.  She also said something that seemed to crystalize a few things we've discussed.  She pointed out that there's a distinct difference between trendsetting and groundbreaking.  Trendsetting is ongoing, and there's no doubt MV was trendsetting in terms of fashion and style in the mid 80's.  Groundbreaking is a single event.  When you're first, everyone else is necessarily second, and you can't be first again.  I think Miami Vice was absolutely groundbreaking for dramatic television in its use of current popular music with the visual montage, and with its film-quality cinematography.  Perhaps also with its frequent use of Latino actors.  I think other elements were trendsetting, like the clothing fashions, facial stubble, and other styles of the time period.

 Fun topic to discuss!

I'm smack in the middle of Latino culture her in SoCal.  The high school I teach at is about 75% Latino, many new immigrants, but most from families that have been here for several generations.  They are largely of Mexican heritage but lots of kids light up when I bring up topics from elsewhere in Latin America.  We always love discussing the food, and if I'm honest, I've had a whole lot of food samples from students I may never have tried otherwise.  I've grown quite fond of several dishes from El Salvador, Brazil, Columbia, and Cuba to name a few.  That's not even counting the incredible diversity of food from the various states in Mexico.  My wife also teaches, and while her school is less highly Latino, we seek out and greatly enjoy some of these cuisines now.