The Deeper Underpinnings of Miami Vice

[Robbie C.]

11 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

I think the show still looked unique in '89 compared to what else was on. Miami just looks a certain way on film that nowhere else looks.

Sure, but my point is more that the look often obscured what was going on underneath. It's not always a good thing to be known only for the look.

[RedDragon86]

Michael Mann isn't just mostly visual, he is a great crime writer and authentic in his work too, just look at "Heat" for example, a film he wrote himself. What I like about his gift is when he takes a novel he knows exactly what to add and take away for realistic effect, Manhunter for example would not have worked if he went page by page like Ratner did. His screenplay for "Thief" was brilliant too.

His attention to detail in his crime films are flawless, he knows the way cops and criminals talk and he does his research, talks to ex cops and criminals, even hires them. To me Mann's crime films are the most realistic and never will be bettered.

Edited July 4, 2019 by RedDragon86

[Robbie C.]

3 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

Michael Mann isn't just mostly visual, he is a great crime writer and authentic in his work too, just look at "Heat" for example, a film he wrote himself. What I like about his gift is when he takes a novel he knows exactly what to add and take away for realistic effect, Manhunter for example would not have worked if he went page by page like Ratner did. His screenplay for "Thief" was brilliant too.

His attention to detail in his crime films are flawless, he knows the way cops and criminals talk and he does his research, talks to ex cops and criminals, even hires them. To me Mann's crime films are the most realistic and never will be bettered.

Except he didn't write much of Vice at all. The majority of that was done by other people. I'm not trying to slight Mann's achievements in film, but we also need to acknowledge Vice was more than just him, and that many powerful episodes were made once he'd more or less stepped away (God's Work being a case in point). In fact, I think a case could be made that the competing influences of Mann and Yerkovich (a Hill Street Blues alum) contributed to some of the 'off' elements in the first season at least.

[RedDragon86]

11 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Except he didn't write much of Vice at all. The majority of that was done by other people. I'm not trying to slight Mann's achievements in film, but we also need to acknowledge Vice was more than just him, and that many powerful episodes were made once he'd more or less stepped away (God's Work being a case in point). In fact, I think a case could be made that the competing influences of Mann and Yerkovich (a Hill Street Blues alum) contributed to some of the 'off' elements in the first season at least.

Its a shame he didn't write a handful because he was more than capable. I think he only co-wrote one which I find a bit strange. Seems as though he was only interested in polishing the episode teleplay's when the writers were finished in season's 1&2. 

[Robbie C.]

That's why I credit him mostly with the look Vice has. He had an impact on the themes and presentation, at least in the first season or so, but after that his impact on content faded. Just like Yerkovitch's lingering influence was more or less gone by the second season. I'm sure his early presence helped ease the acceptance of a plot line like Evan or Rites of Passage. I think he was more interested in redefining the visual side of television.

[Bren10]

Regarding Freefall:

Does Rico quit the force if Sonny doesn't throw his badge down first? Is Rico just being led around by Sonny at this point? Consider:  1) Rico waits for Sonny to agree to the Freefall mission before taking it. 2) Sonny talks Rico into the final confrontation at the pier with the plane, where he gets shot no less, and 3) Sonny is the first to turn his back on the Feds and walk away, potentially getting them both killed and then 4) He throws his badge down first essentially making a career decision for them both. I know they're supposed to be in everything together but it's something to think about. In addition to the onset of burnout, Sonny is also getting pretty presumptuous.

[mjcmmv]

33 minutes ago, Bren10 said:

Regarding Freefall:

Does Rico quit the force if Sonny doesn't throw his badge down first? Is Rico just being led around by Sonny at this point? Consider:  1) Rico waits for Sonny to agree to the Freefall mission before taking it. 2) Sonny talks Rico into the final confrontation at the pier with the plane, where he gets shot no less, and 3) Sonny is the first to turn his back on the Feds and walk away, potentially getting them both killed and then 4) He throws his badge down first essentially making a career decision for them both. I know they're supposed to be in everything together but it's something to think about. In addition to the onset of burnout, Sonny is also getting pretty presumptuous.

This is something that never occurred to me. Thinking about the scenes you pointed out, I think you're right. Rico's almost docile.  Not once do I remember him arguing with Sonny. 

Someone dropped the ball with that writing. 

So, was it just in Freefall? I'm trying to think if there are other episodes where Rico takes a back seat to every decision. 

[Bren10]

If you chronologically count Too Much, Too Late as coming right before this, I suppose it's possible to think that Tubbs just gave up resisting Sonny's point of view, being that he was essentially right in that situation.

[Detective_Crockett]

1 hour ago, Bren10 said:

Regarding Freefall:

Does Rico quit the force if Sonny doesn't throw his badge down first? Is Rico just being led around by Sonny at this point? Consider:  1) Rico waits for Sonny to agree to the Freefall mission before taking it. 2) Sonny talks Rico into the final confrontation at the pier with the plane, where he gets shot no less, and 3) Sonny is the first to turn his back on the Feds and walk away, potentially getting them both killed and then 4) He throws his badge down first essentially making a career decision for them both. I know they're supposed to be in everything together but it's something to think about. In addition to the onset of burnout, Sonny is also getting pretty presumptuous.

Funny, I thought this myself a while back I reckon the unaired episodes add more context into Rico's quitting the force, for one thing not being able to marry Val and being fed up of the law enforcement in general. 

[Robbie C.]

4 hours ago, mjcmmv said:

This is something that never occurred to me. Thinking about the scenes you pointed out, I think you're right. Rico's almost docile.  Not once do I remember him arguing with Sonny. 

Someone dropped the ball with that writing. 

So, was it just in Freefall? I'm trying to think if there are other episodes where Rico takes a back seat to every decision. 

Once the show became a confirmed DJ vehicle, Rico was written in less and less with opinions of his own. There were some clear exceptions, but on the whole that was the trend.

[Robbie C.]

Speaking of Rico, though...he seemed to function quite often as Sonny's conscience. This, combined with Sonny's very situational responsibility, really adds to my idea that Sonny as we see him in the show is more of an avatar than an actual character. Which is a shame, because he could have been a very powerful character.

[vicegirl85]

1 hour ago, Robbie C. said:

Speaking of Rico, though...he seemed to function quite often as Sonny's conscience. This, combined with Sonny's very situational responsibility, really adds to my idea that Sonny as we see him in the show is more of an avatar than an actual character. Which is a shame, because he could have been a very powerful character.

This makes sense.

[Matt5]

13 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

This makes sense.

Sonny was the highly strung one - Rico the cool dude. But both the best characters ever.

[Robbie C.]

15 minutes ago, Matt5 said:

Sonny was the highly strung one - Rico the cool dude. But both the best characters ever.

Actually from a writing standpoint Sonny is both thin and erratic. He makes a good window into the undercover life, but as a fully-rounded character he comes up short. Rico is more consistent in terms of behavior and outlook.