bars in Miami

[jpaul1]

this is a question that i had been asking to myself recently. I browse streetview a lot. regularly i go there, and try to see if the 80s Miami i knew when i was a kid had been altered in some way. And i just recently realized something that is probably dumb, but i rarely come across bars. here in France in any town you can't do 500 m without seing a bar. it's a huge socializing point for some layers of the society. for example my dad (which i consider as a normal person) was everyday with his buddies at the bar. But when i browse street view i rarely come across bars. so this is my question where are the bars in Miami lol

[Tom]

I agree with your perception. Also in my country there are bars on every corner. 
 

Miami (also other parts of US where I have been, maybe with NYC as exception) never had that many bars (esp those that are open til the morning) maybe due to US alcohol policy. Miami Beach had much more nightlife 20-30 years ago. I lived close to 20th street for a while. When they closed all the shady bars, Wolfie‘s and tourist shops and replaced it with ugly expensive condos street life died permanently. Today it’s hard to find a bar or a club except for the Ocean Drive area. Club deuce is still there but quite a shady place by the way. 

[pahonu]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

I agree with your perception. Also in my country there are bars on every corner. 
 

Miami (also other parts of US where I have been, maybe with NYC as exception) never had that many bars (esp those that are open til the morning) maybe due to US alcohol policy. Miami Beach had much more nightlife 20-30 years ago. I lived close to 20th street for a while. When they closed all the shady bars, Wolfie‘s and tourist shops and replaced it with ugly expensive condos street life died permanently. Today it’s hard to find a bar or a club except for the Ocean Drive area. Club deuce is still there but quite a shady place by the way. 

I agree.  Since the 80’s alcohol policy across the US has become stricter especially related to drunk driving.  Since most places in the US need cars to get around compared to older European cities, it’s a bit of a logistical issue for many.  Also, some states still had an 18 year old drinking age in the 80’s until federal tax dollars became attached to the 21 year old standard.  All states are now.
 

Alcohol laws also vary widely from state to state and even county to county.  There are still dry counties in Florida and other states, with zero alcohol sales.  When I was last in South Florida in the early 90’s, I was very surprised that there was no limit on alcohol sale’s time, at least in Miami.  It was 24/7 and there were quite a few bars around that I recall.  This was just a couple of years after MV ended and I don’t know if this is still the case.  Here in CA, the last sale is at 2:00am.

Edited December 11, 2022 by pahonu

[Paul Veres]

Interesting topic. Outside of city centers a lot has to do with zoning. And not just the legal inability to open a commercial business "on the corner", but also zoning for exclusively single family homes reduces the density and it's just not worth opening a bar where there will not be enough of people traffic to make it commercially viable. 

And that's why everybody drives to a bar, unless you already live in a dense apartment building area like South Beach or Downtown or Brickell, or Midtown/Wynwood, etc. then there are plenty of bars I think (though I don't know what it used to be like in the 80s/90s). Related, parking availability, which is tough/expensive in dense areas. There are restaurants/bars often at the malls. Malls have lots of parking and all these suburbanites are already going there shopping anyway so it's easy to attract them. And probably laxer noise ordinance than residential neighborhoods. So I feel like the zoning and how it affects the culture has to do more with it than any local alcohol laws in particular.

But it is also true that Americans just don't stay out as late, so possibly a bar would generate less revenue. 2am? Closed! My friend from Moscow was just telling me the other day how he was planning to go out with a girl at 1 or 2 am, like they were just thinking to start to go somewhere at that hour, and places open throughout to 6-7am. I remember one bar that literally didn't close, 24 hours, just staff changing.

[pahonu]

22 minutes ago, Paul Veres said:

Interesting topic. Outside of city centers a lot has to do with zoning. And not just the legal inability to open a commercial business "on the corner", but also zoning for exclusively single family homes reduces the density and it's just not worth opening a bar where there will not be enough of people traffic to make it commercially viable. 

And that's why everybody drives to a bar, unless you already live in a dense apartment building area like South Beach or Downtown or Brickell, or Midtown/Wynwood, etc. then there are plenty of bars I think (though I don't know what it used to be like in the 80s/90s). Related, parking availability, which is tough/expensive in dense areas. There are restaurants/bars often at the malls. Malls have lots of parking and all these suburbanites are already going there shopping anyway so it's easy to attract them. And probably laxer noise ordinance than residential neighborhoods. So I feel like the zoning and how it affects the culture has to do more with it than any local alcohol laws in particular.

But it is also true that Americans just don't stay out as late, so possibly a bar would generate less revenue. 2am? Closed! My friend from Moscow was just telling me the other day how he was planning to go out with a girl at 1 or 2 am, like they were just thinking to start to go somewhere at that hour, and places open throughout to 6-7am. I remember one bar that literally didn't close, 24 hours, just staff changing.

This is indeed a very interesting and a very complex topic particularly because of the size of the US.  As you described in Moscow, there were several 24 hour bars in Miami when I was there in the early 90’s.  Yet at the same time, other counties in Florida are totally dry.  The laws are all over the place, no sales at all to 24 hours of operation.  Random note: the county in Tennessee where Jack Daniel’s is distilled is actually a dry county!  

Another reason I was thinking about is related somewhat to the zoning issues you describe but not about noise.  Neighborhood groups can have a real impact on the total number of liquor licenses allowed in an area through legal appeals.  Many places have a fixed number of licenses allowed in defined business area and a new bar can not open until literally another closes and a license is again available.  Also, full liquor licenses that include spirits, are typically MUCH more expensive than just wine and beer sales so many restaurants serve only those.  

In a strange example of circumventing alcohol laws, a particular spirit from Korea called soju was not legally classified as such here in California and a couple of other states, I believe.  That meant that places with only a beer and wine license were allowed to serve it.  It can be up to 50 proof which is closer to most spirits than many wines and certainly most beers.  It is also a fairly neutral spirit so several years ago soju cocktails began showing up on restaurant menus everywhere.  They were just traditional cocktails substituting soju for other spirits.  Of course this doesn’t work for many cocktails needing the flavor of a whiskey or a gin, for example, but many more places could serve cocktails and they still do.

[Paul Veres]

On 12/18/2022 at 10:40 AM, pahonu said:

This is indeed a very interesting and a very complex topic particularly because of the size of the US.  As you described in Moscow, there were several 24 hour bars in Miami when I was there in the early 90’s.  Yet at the same time, other counties in Florida are totally dry.  The laws are all over the place, no sales at all to 24 hours of operation.  Random note: the county in Tennessee where Jack Daniel’s is distilled is actually a dry county!  

Another reason I was thinking about is related somewhat to the zoning issues you describe but not about noise.  Neighborhood groups can have a real impact on the total number of liquor licenses allowed in an area through legal appeals.  Many places have a fixed number of licenses allowed in defined business area and a new bar can not open until literally another closes and a license is again available.  Also, full liquor licenses that include spirits, are typically MUCH more expensive than just wine and beer sales so many restaurants serve only those.  

In a strange example of circumventing alcohol laws, a particular spirit from Korea called soju was not legally classified as such here in California and a couple of other states, I believe.  That meant that places with only a beer and wine license were allowed to serve it.  It can be up to 50 proof which is closer to most spirits than many wines and certainly most beers.  It is also a fairly neutral spirit so several years ago soju cocktails began showing up on restaurant menus everywhere.  They were just traditional cocktails substituting soju for other spirits.  Of course this doesn’t work for many cocktails needing the flavor of a whiskey or a gin, for example, but many more places could serve cocktails and they still do.

Good point about limits on licenses and the nimby advocacy. I now residents of South Beach have been fighting the Ocean Drive bar owners forever, as what's lucrative for the latter is just nuisance to the former. If I remember correctly some another compromise was achieved lately on who can be opened by how late.

Interesting detail about soju, had to look it up! Wiki says its alcohol content varies from about 12.9% to 53%, so it can be near wine when at the lowest strength, maybe licenses differentiate between different types of soju.

[pahonu]

4 hours ago, Paul Veres said:

Good point about limits on licenses and the nimby advocacy. I now residents of South Beach have been fighting the Ocean Drive bar owners forever, as what's lucrative for the latter is just nuisance to the former. If I remember correctly some another compromise was achieved lately on who can be opened by how late.

Interesting detail about soju, had to look it up! Wiki says its alcohol content varies from about 12.9% to 53%, so it can be near wine when at the lowest strength, maybe licenses differentiate between different types of soju.

I looked up the details after I wrote the post. In California law it can be up to 50 proof and not be classified as a spirit.  The bottle has to be labeled as 50 proof or less and the menu must specify that soju is replacing the traditional spirit in the cocktail.  So it would have to be called a soju screwdriver or soju Bloody Mary.  I think any establishment would choose the highest allowable limit of 50 even though it comes in a variety of proofs. That’s the whole point.  It allows them to make cocktails without an expensive license to pour spirits.  Oh, and New York also allows this.

Edited December 19, 2022 by pahonu

[jpaul1]

bars are rare, but i saw a fair amount of cafecitos, if we can call them like that. small restaurants (often south/central american caribbean owned), where you can grab a coffee, or a pastry

Edited January 26, 2023 by jpaul1

[pahonu]

3 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

bars are rare, but i saw a fair amount of cafecitos, if we can call them like that. small restaurants (often south/central american caribbean owned), where you can grab a coffee, or a pastry

Cafecito is certainly a name for the very sweet black coffee served. 

[jpaul1]

i made a simple seach in google maps. sometimes you don't know why you don't do very simple actions one doesn't know why. and actually there are quite a bunch of bars in Miami, but they're quite "select'. maybe more tourist oriented. those are not bars in the european sense. here bars are almost familial. in Miami they look more to hotel bars. very clean, very well kept. i'm not saying european bars are dirty lol. the miamian bar look more to a cafe. clean, made to make tourists stop