Season 5: Overall Assessment

[Mr. Vigilante]

1 hour ago, Dadrian said:

I’m currently in Season 5 in my rotation. 

I loved it as a kid, then began to hate it through my 20s and 30s. 

I think my main problems were Jan Hammer’s absence and strange costumes. 

Over the last couple of years I’ve began to like it again, though. 

I find myself really liking the Tim Truman scores now—maybe in part because we got to communicate directly during my recent, very brief try with Facebook. Knowing that he listened to (and enjoyed) my Jan Hammer covers is quite humbling! He’s a nice guy, too. 

You mean you didn't like Tubbs' polka dot sportcoat, or his outfit in "To Have & To Hold"?  He looked like a matador that was transitioning into a horse jockey!

That said, I always enjoyed Truman's scores.  He brought some darker vibes to the music which fit some of the darker themes.  I love the guitar work.  Jan Hammer could never be replaced though.

[Leigh Burne]

+1 for the people who really liked Truman's music. Not Hammer, obviously, but in a way that was the best thing Truman did - he didn't try and ape what came before, but went for his own style. Just compare his work to Petersen's - it's a hell of a lot more memorable.

Also - and this is something I've said several times - I think his darker music fit the tone of the season far better than Hammer's stuff would've.

Just a shame we've never had any of it released  (officially).

While I'm at it, +1 for the people who actually really like season 5. It might even be my second favourite after 2 (I'm sure that'll get a reaction ). Yes, there are some duffers in it, but I think every season had those (with the possible exception of the second) and more than anything I love how consistently dark and bleak it got. It always kinda bugged me that C&T would go through these traumatic experiences every week and then next episode they'd be happy and cheerful as thought it never happened. I appreciated that in 5 it all started to get to them.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Leigh Burne

[Tom]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Leigh Burne:

While I'm at it, +1 for the people who actually really like season 5. It might even be my second favourite after 2 (I'm sure that'll get a reaction ). 

Yes, it does get a reaction!  I was at both sides of the fence in this case and would like to share this...

I grew up with season 2 and it was mind-blowing and my favorite. The colors, the style, the guest stars. Now, 30 years later, I realized I don´t watch season 2 anymore with a few exceptions (for story reasons: e.g. Out where the buses, One way ticket, ...) and tried to find out why always grab another season instead.

I´ve come to the conclusion that (for me, subjective personal view!) season 2 is like a big ice cream cup with tons of cream and on top of cream is more fruits and even more chocolate sauce and even maple syrup on top. For me that´s too much as the underlying ice cream quality is average at best. Does my comparison make sense to you? I hope. 

They tried in season 2 to compensate missing story sophistication with pink colors, money and a famous face. Not intentionally but because the show was so cool and they had more budget than they could spend and even got more when needed. They spent hundreds of thousands per episode to build cool-looking pink sets for one scene only! "Junk love" is one example (Miles Davis is mediocre, the story is a one-liner but the colors are great), "Back in the world" is another (500k USD budget overdraft for barges to the Key Largo location and a refilmed mortar attack scene of 15 seconds). This formula worked for most people especially occasional viewers, as can be seen in season 3 when stories were much better but colors darker and lots of fans left.

Season 5 (and also 3 and 4) had still lots of style and also great colors, but it was better balanced between style, content, humor and drama, let alone the budget -as they stopped wasting money and used real locations instead of building whole pink/blue hospital stations for instance. I also see that the show had become very nihilistic and depressing at this point as the characters became disenchanted with their police work whereas in season 2 everyone in the VICE department was in a happy "party mode" compared to the series end. That also turned some people off, but VICE was always "film noir" and not comedy. And, of course some eps sucked but that happened in season 2 as well.

So, my point is: VICE was per se highly contemporary stuff which met the zeitgeist in a special time context and season2 (1985) had different context than 1988 and viewers own preferences what they like change over time as well as we get older. I was surprised that this happened to me with season 2, but there´s nothing wrong with it. 

I cannot imagine season 5 with Jan Hammer score as I cannot imagine season 2 with Crockett in Jeans and leather denim.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Tom

[RedDragon86]

What I find better with seasons 1&2 is Don's and Philips characters are much more focused, especially Crockett, they stay with their original approach. Tubbs is serious and cool while Crockett is brooding, intense and motivated. Even with a story like "Tale of the Goat" he took it seriously, he could have easily have looked bemused and bored throughout the episode but didn't.

After Son's & Lovers" they are completely different, not in a bad way but different.

 

 

 

[RedDragon86]

5 is much more consistent than 4.

Its a shame this season didn't have a decent budget.

[Leigh Burne]

Yeah, the reduced budget is really noticeable at times. It feels like they blew a lot of their cash on the first episode (a contender for my favourite from the entire series).

The money-saving is especially noticeable in the number of scenes set in clubs or bars where they just got Truman to cobble together some soundalike muzak instead of paying for an actual pop song to appear.

[ViceFanMan]

16 hours ago, Dadrian said:

@Tom s1-3 are still my favorites though 

Mine too...2 being the best overall & truly what the show was about! Season 3 was still pretty good but there were changes that didn’t go over quite as well as I think they originally hoped. Seasons 4-5 just got too bizarre & had too many very poor & pathetic scripts/plots (although there were still good episodes sprinkled throughout). By 4, the show had lost its way & what had truly defined it. 

[Tony D.]

On 7/15/2014 at 7:00 PM, Tony D. said:

I clicked on this Topic tonight and realized a couple years have passed since I posted about it.

Rodriquezisdead who started this Topic in 2009 gave a great analysis of the main episodes in Season 5.

After reading most of the comments, it's hard to believe this is a Miami Vice Fan website! It looks more like a 'hate MV website.'

I love Miami Vice even though I haven't watched many episodes in about a year, because of lack of time. I plan to start watching my DVDs again in order, from Season 1 to 5.

Season 5, after the Burnett Trilogy is disappointing to me only because it lacks the cool, suave, handsome newness & pizazz that were contained in Seas. 1,2&3. But like I said, I love Miami Vice and no matter how far from the early episodes season 5 has strayed...it's still Miami Vice, the best cop show with my favorite actors.

For me, "Missing Hours" & "Line of Fire" are the worst episodes, and even they have some redeeming value.

Come on Fans! Think about how excited you got when a new episode was about to be shown & seek out the good that will be found in even the worst episodes of Miami Vice.

This Topic is still around so I decided to post my comments from 2014. I still feel the same way I did, then. 

I love Miami Vice & the main actors.....D.J. & P.M.T.    Whatever episode may fall short in quality in whatever season, it still gives me much enjoyment! 

Remember, it's Miami Vice !!!

[Jack Gretsky]

On 9/14/2020 at 10:24 PM, Jack Gretsky said:

Seasons 1 & 2 remain the best, but at least S5 was more consistently engaging than S4.  

1. World of Trouble: Great to see Dennis Farina's Lombard again. 

2. Line of Fire: Good story, intro for Joey Hardin. 

3. The Cell Within: Insane episode, but I like it in a Lynchian Fincherian way. 

4. Jack of All Trades: The annual "screwball" episode.  Quite entertaining. 

5. The Lost Madonna: Unusual premise concerning modern art.  And Elizabeth Berridge. 

Also good are Asian Cut, Hard Knocks, Fruit of the Poison Tree, To Have and To Hold, and Over the Line, and the series finale, Freefall, has some good bits.  I even like Miracle Man and Leap of Faith!

Because I'm more of a synth guy than a guitar guy, this was not a great season for music. Tim Truman's music was only good when it evoked Jan Hammer's work from previous shows. The grungy, squealing guitar sound was reflected in the song choices - these S5 episodes were lacking in awesome audio/visual song scenes.  But there were standouts including Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush's "Don't Give Up," Pink Floyd's "The Dogs of War," Ministry's "Stigmata," The Church's "Under the Milky Way," U2's "Desire," Eric Clapton's "She's Waiting," Bryan Ferry's "Bete Noire," Tanita Tikaram's "Twist in My Sobriety," Genesis' "Land of Confusion" (although it was buried in the sound mix), and King Swamp's "Year Zero." And, yes, I even like the Swingle Singers' Bach jazz from Jack of All Trades. 

I'm getting more used to Season 5 the more I watch it now.  It's not as sharp and cool as the mid-80s seasons, but there's plenty of good stuff to enjoy. 

My top 10 of this year would include my previously picked top 5, plus "Borrasca," "Asian Cut," "Hard Knocks," "Over the Line," and "Leap of Faith."  Even "Miracle Man" comes close to making the cut, it came off as more moving than silly this recent viewing. 

[gazzaa2]

I struggle with season 5. It's better overall than 4 (similar number of high quality episodes but fewer clunkers). 

It's just not the same show though. It's always been a dark show but the style has gone, the fun has gone and the comic relief ever rarer. Even the affable Switek turns into a pit of despair in season 5 and even Izzy in one of his fewer season 5 appearance has a breakdown in one episode. Crockett is completely burnt out (DJ as well presumably with the show) and Gina and Trudy may as well not be there for a lot of the episodes and Zito a big miss for the show.

It seemed like since the Hackman death scene near the end of season 4, the whole show just turns into nihilism. The whole of season 5 is like season 3 at its most depressing.

Edited September 18, 2022 by gazzaa2

[Augusta]

I cannot be forgiving of Season 4 or 5, except to say more than 50% of it's dropped quality was not the fault of the show itself.  The writers strike made a famine of good scripts and of good writers to carry half-decent script ideas into good episodes.  The principle creators were gone.  Their replacements included individuals who had their own dreams of creating "the essential cop tv show" and didn't respect that Miami Vice ALREADY WAS an essential cop tv show of its own kind before they joined on.  

So much like Lucas' Star Wars, only the original creative team and we audience ever understood what makes this thing such a successful hit...while Hollywood never understood, just thinks any piece  can freely be swapped out here or there and there'll be no reason the audience won't eat it up as usual.  (....poor retarded Hollywood machine, LOL)

Miami Vice didn't burst onto the screen out of miracles, music video culture, divine sprinkle-wand.  It was thought out and constructed by a collection of immensely good technical professions, each essential to keep the show on its track.  Once enough of those people had gone, it eventually would make Miami Vice "gone" too.

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Augusta

[apocalypse]

For me the best summary of S5 is very simple: DJ lost his heart playing Sonny Crockett after the Burnett trilogy. He was looking bored, scruffy, tired and perhaps he was going through some kind of substance problem during that time.

I mean look at him during the S1, S2 and S3 and compare it to the S5 look. He looks 15 years older and that bleached, feminine curly hair was absolutely terrible. But sure, he was very believable as a burn-out cop. 

Of course the budget cuts had an effect too. Their office is always dark and there are no other cops around. Stan wasn't his funny self and they made him a complete loser. Why? He didn't fit very well playing an undercover suit guy though (in that one episode with Tubbs). Not so much Izzy, either.

S5 has its moments. Asian Cut, Fruit of the Poison Tree and Lost Madonna are actually pretty good. There might be good moments but I just can't force myself watching those episodes anymore. The happiness and good spirit (that was still intact in S4) was gone from everyone. 

[RedDragon86]

2 hours ago, apocalypse said:

For me the best summary of S5 is very simple: DJ lost his heart playing Sonny Crockett after the Burnett trilogy. He was looking bored, scruffy, tired and perhaps he was going through some kind of substance problem during that time.

I mean look at him during the S1, S2 and S3 and compare it to the S5 look. He looks 15 years older and that bleached, feminine curly hair was absolutely terrible. But sure, he was very believable as a burn-out cop. 

Of course the budget cuts had an effect too. Their office is always dark and there are no other cops around. Stan wasn't his funny self and they made him a complete loser. Why? He didn't fit very well playing an undercover suit guy though (in that one episode with Tubbs). Not so much Izzy, either.

S5 has its moments. Asian Cut, Fruit of the Poison Tree and Lost Madonna are actually pretty good. There might be good moments but I just can't force myself watching those episodes anymore. The happiness and good spirit (that was still intact in S4) was gone from everyone. 

When you look at him here getting interviewed by Terry Wogan in 1989 his youthful looks are back due to his much better appearance, his hairstyle is tidy etc. 

Why couldn't Don look like this in season 5? looks like Sonny in season 2. Aesthetic are also important in TV series because we are the observer. 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by RedDragon86

[apocalypse]

Yes. I think he was looking like that on purpose. He was extremely good looking man, but good looking in a masculine way. That girly, curly blonde hair looked so unbelievably awful on him. 

And the age doesn't really matter. Brad Pitt and many other actors are pushing 60 and still look great.  Bond actors are regularly over 50 and look great. DJ was looking mentally tired and like he didn't really give a damn. In a way it was very well suited to his burned out character though.

But that hair... uhh... 

Edited September 22, 2022 by apocalypse

[RedDragon86]

2 hours ago, apocalypse said:

Yes. I think he was looking like that on purpose. He was extremely good looking man, but good looking in a masculine way. That girly, curly blonde hair looked so unbelievably awful on him. 

And the age doesn't really matter. Brad Pitt and many other actors are pushing 60 and still look great.  Bond actors are regularly over 50 and look great. DJ was looking mentally tired and like he didn't really give a damn. In a way it was very well suited to his burned out character though.

But that hair... uhh... 

True.

I think his tired look just conveniently suited him in 5, like it wasn't intentional.

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by RedDragon86

[Miami Beau]

To my knowledge, Don’s wardrobe and stylings for season 5, were like all other seasons very intentional. Season 5 wrapped up the Sonny Crockett arc beginning in Season 1. The show began with him jaded, became rejuvenated with a new partner in Tubbs, and slowly over the course of the show we see the character become more and more disillusioned with the job. That was kinda the whole point, that Crockett had evolved into a more carefree disheveled guy post Redemption In Blood. Crockett wasn’t really the same after Caitlin died and even less so post the Burnett arc. Season 5 was a purposeful change in direction and this was felt in the music, the fashion and even the cinematography. Also Vice was very much a forward thinking ahead of its time thing, even in 1988/1989. This season showcased elements of the early 90s grunge scene that was yet to come into the mainstream. The use of music from the likes of Guns and Roses was a sign of the times and season 5 embraced that. 

 

[Matt5]

7 hours ago, Miami Beau said:

To my knowledge, Don’s wardrobe and stylings for season 5, were like all other seasons very intentional. Season 5 wrapped up the Sonny Crockett arc beginning in Season 1. The show began with him jaded, became rejuvenated with a new partner in Tubbs, and slowly over the course of the show we see the character become more and more disillusioned with the job. That was kinda the whole point, that Crockett had evolved into a more carefree disheveled guy post Redemption In Blood. Crockett wasn’t really the same after Caitlin died and even less so post the Burnett arc. Season 5 was a purposeful change in direction and this was felt in the music, the fashion and even the cinematography. Also Vice was very much a forward thinking ahead of its time thing, even in 1988/1989. This season showcased elements of the early 90s grunge scene that was yet to come into the mainstream. The use of music from the likes of Guns and Roses was a sign of the times and season 5 embraced that. 

 

Yes great points. Ahead of it’s time with the grunge scene. 

[Augusta]

Wow, Miami Blues you built a great framework for the flow of the entire 5-season entity, and it makes beautiful sense for piecing Johnson's character into a controlled arc.  Even though I love that, and I'm always praising the Vice technical creators as being really some of the smartest example of their profession,  this is one time I can't see them as being THAT smart.  Not smart enough to arc Sonny so intentionally through the five seasons.  More than half the talented crew who COULD be instructed to accomplish something like that had already departed the series.  
I see the pre-grunge fashion explanation part of it as on-target (notice even Trudy is seen in similar tatters and splashing political buttons in a couple of S-5 episodes too)--you're both right, it was opening a door to fashion evolution the some of us posters believed proves that Vice would have easily owned the '90s era as easily as it did the '80s,  
...Yet, story-wise Dick Wolf just isn't shrewd enough to get a team to arc a character that cleverly, over that many seasons.  

But Miami Blues, YOU should have been a member of their writer's crew.  That concept was daaanged great!  The course you mapped out for Sonny from inception to final season---after Season 3 the show needed that kind of insightful projection!  Five thumbs up!  
(..yes, I'm a mutant, I have that many thumbs from birth). 

[Robbie C.]

14 hours ago, Miami Beau said:

To my knowledge, Don’s wardrobe and stylings for season 5, were like all other seasons very intentional. Season 5 wrapped up the Sonny Crockett arc beginning in Season 1. The show began with him jaded, became rejuvenated with a new partner in Tubbs, and slowly over the course of the show we see the character become more and more disillusioned with the job. That was kinda the whole point, that Crockett had evolved into a more carefree disheveled guy post Redemption In Blood. Crockett wasn’t really the same after Caitlin died and even less so post the Burnett arc. Season 5 was a purposeful change in direction and this was felt in the music, the fashion and even the cinematography. Also Vice was very much a forward thinking ahead of its time thing, even in 1988/1989. This season showcased elements of the early 90s grunge scene that was yet to come into the mainstream. The use of music from the likes of Guns and Roses was a sign of the times and season 5 embraced that. 

 

The disheveled look was also part of the metal scene...and Vice was quite slow to pick up on that (so in some ways Vice was behind the times and may have captured what became grunge by accident instead of design...G&R was originally pushed as a metal band after all). I agree that Crockett was never the same after Caitlin's murder, and have posted on this before (and worked it into some of my fiction as well). I don't think the show consciously picked up on that, but some writers may have and worked it in and through what we got in Season 5. I don't know that I'd describe Sonny as carefree as much as I would worn down, though. Maybe starting to figure out what really mattered to him, especially after seeing the polar opposite, mission-driven side that was Burnett.

[Miami Beau]

6 hours ago, Augusta said:

Wow, Miami Blues you built a great framework for the flow of the entire 5-season entity, and it makes beautiful sense for piecing Johnson's character into a controlled arc.  Even though I love that, and I'm always praising the Vice technical creators as being really some of the smartest example of their profession,  this is one time I can't see them as being THAT smart.  Not smart enough to arc Sonny so intentionally through the five seasons.  More than half the talented crew who COULD be instructed to accomplish something like that had already departed the series.  
I see the pre-grunge fashion explanation part of it as on-target (notice even Trudy is seen in similar tatters and splashing political buttons in a couple of S-5 episodes too)--you're both right, it was opening a door to fashion evolution the some of us posters believed proves that Vice would have easily owned the '90s era as easily as it did the '80s,  
...Yet, story-wise Dick Wolf just isn't shrewd enough to get a team to arc a character that cleverly, over that many seasons.  

But Miami Blues, YOU should have been a member of their writer's crew.  That concept was daaanged great!  The course you mapped out for Sonny from inception to final season---after Season 3 the show needed that kind of insightful projection!  Five thumbs up!  
(..yes, I'm a mutant, I have that many thumbs from birth). 

Thank you so much buddy, really appreciate that comment. Maybe I give the producers too much credit but for sure I see a continuous arc throughout the 5 seasons. Perhaps it was just coincidence. The thing is, there are pivotal key episodes within the series that slowly shred away Sonny’s passion for his job ultimately resulting in Freefall. Linking it all together makes for a great viewing experience. 

[Miami Beau]

4 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

The disheveled look was also part of the metal scene...and Vice was quite slow to pick up on that (so in some ways Vice was behind the times and may have captured what became grunge by accident instead of design...G&R was originally pushed as a metal band after all). I agree that Crockett was never the same after Caitlin's murder, and have posted on this before (and worked it into some of my fiction as well). I don't think the show consciously picked up on that, but some writers may have and worked it in and through what we got in Season 5. I don't know that I'd describe Sonny as carefree as much as I would worn down, though. Maybe starting to figure out what really mattered to him, especially after seeing the polar opposite, mission-driven side that was Burnett.

Hey Robbie, hope your doing good pal. Loving the fan fiction btw. In regards to Vice being slow on the metal front, I would have to slightly disagree. Only because in season 2’s “Free Verse”, we get introduced to Suicidal Tendencies. The inclusion of this band still kinda blows my mind and very ahead of the curve for 1986. 

Yeah maybe the term carefree was a bit much, but then I point towards the opening to Season 5’s “The Lost Madonna”. The way in which Sonny approached Stanley Costa and just nonchalantly told him he was a cop, I dunno, for me, Sonny from seasons 1 to 4 would of approached that situation differently. For me this is a great example of the evolution of Sonny’s character. But hey it’s all debatable. I just like to watch the series thinking that it’s based more on intention and less coincidence. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Miami Beau

[Robbie C.]

Glad you're enjoying the fiction. Be curious to know what you think of the post-series Task Force stuff when/if you reach it.

Suicidal Tendencies is a reasonable observation, but on the whole Vice tended to miss or ignore the genre (possibly because of licensing costs...it's hard to say at this remove). But hard rock and metal were both slighted (we never hear Van Halen or AC/DC, to give two examples). I mainly point this out because there are a number of folks who think Vice represents the '80s writ large when in fact it was a relatively narrow and selective sampling.

I tend to think, on the whole, that the visuals and acoustics on Vice were all intentional, and plotting elements like those you mention were more often than not coincidence. Mann was very into the visual and audio side of Vice, and honestly didn't pay much attention to plot elements. We see the difference quite clearly when Vice is compared to Crime Story. Dick Wolf isn't much of a character development guy, either. 

[Miami Beau]

15 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

Glad you're enjoying the fiction. Be curious to know what you think of the post-series Task Force stuff when/if you reach it.

Suicidal Tendencies is a reasonable observation, but on the whole Vice tended to miss or ignore the genre (possibly because of licensing costs...it's hard to say at this remove). But hard rock and metal were both slighted (we never hear Van Halen or AC/DC, to give two examples). I mainly point this out because there are a number of folks who think Vice represents the '80s writ large when in fact it was a relatively narrow and selective sampling.

I tend to think, on the whole, that the visuals and acoustics on Vice were all intentional, and plotting elements like those you mention were more often than not coincidence. Mann was very into the visual and audio side of Vice, and honestly didn't pay much attention to plot elements. We see the difference quite clearly when Vice is compared to Crime Story. Dick Wolf isn't much of a character development guy, either. 

not yet reached the task force stuff yet but when I do I’ll let you know what I think 

I get the assumption Fred Lyle was not a huge fan of the heavy metal genre when it came to selecting songs for the show. I agree with what you said about the selective sampling. As much as we like to point out songs that could of worked well on Vice, there are thousands of 80s songs that imo, really would of not worked. When it came to season 5 there seemed to be this inclusion but not something that they championed. So the popularity of metal was acknowledged it but done begrudgingly. An example of this is the use of Iron Maiden. Only a snippet was heard in Line of Fire then quickly shunned away by Sonny. With the whole concept of Miami changing in season 5 and our beloved characters getting older, the subtle inclusions of the metal genre helped showcase the ever changing times. 

[Robbie C.]

Just now, Miami Beau said:

not yet reached the task force stuff yet but when I do I’ll let you know what I think 

I get the assumption Fred Lyle was not a huge fan of the heavy metal genre when it came to selecting songs for the show. I agree with what you said about the selective sampling. As much as we like to point out songs that could of worked well on Vice, there are thousands of 80s songs that imo, really would of not worked. When it came to season 5 there seemed to be this inclusion but not something that they championed. So the popularity of metal was acknowledged it but done begrudgingly. An example of this is the use of Iron Maiden. Only a snippet was heard in Line of Fire then quickly shunned away by Sonny. With the whole concept of Miami changing in season 5 and our beloved characters getting older, the subtle inclusions of the metal genre helped showcase the ever changing times. 

True, but it was also pretty late in the game. Metal had its huge arena period in the mid- to late-1980s...when Vice was in its heyday. I'm not saying metal per se would have worked in Vice, but there are times when it might have been better than what was used. I can think of at least two slower Scorpions songs that would have worked quite well (Holiday being one), and Def Leppard could have had a turn as well (some may not consider those bands metal, they were classed that way during the '80s...with Def Leppard often being included as part of the New Wave of British Heavy Metal right up there with Maiden). Metal of course wasn't the only genre sighted, but I think it's important to remember there were large parts of the '80s that Vice simply missed.

If you like reading the fiction in chronological order, I'd strongly recommend using the Reader's Guid post that's stickied at the start of the Fan Fiction forum (assuming you're not already, of course). That way you can follow things in series timeline order (and I add anything new I do into it as well).

[Miami Beau]

I’m aware of Def Leppard but not heard of that Scorpions song you mentioned. I’ll check it out. 
And thanks for the heads up regards the reading guide, I just stumbled upon some of your stuff and began reading but I’ll look at the guide, would be good to checkout your stuff chronologically