Who do you think was Crockett's main antagonist of the series?

[M.A.Castillo]

Hello to all after many years of absence from this forum!

Just got a notification that I had earned my "Ten Year Veteran" badge! 

Off-topic aside: Who do you think was the main antagonist of Crockett's through out the entire series?

To me it is no doubt about it -- Frank Hackman.

Why? To me he was the epitomy of "evil" in the series. A sadistic psychopath with no conscience. 

Starting from season 3's "Forgive Us Our Debts" by annihilating Crockett's then partner (in 1980)

to killing Crockett's future wife, Caitlin and their unborn baby in the season 4 episode "Deliver Us From Evil" (in 1988).

I do firmly believe that Crockett did everyone a favor by bringing Hackman  down at the end of "Deliver Us From Evil", I really do...

[Dadrian]

26 minutes ago, M.A.Castillo said:

Who do you think was the main antagonist of Crockett's through out the entire series?

Himself

[Robbie C.]

51 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

Himself

I would agree with this. Hackman didn't surface until quite late in the series, and even though he might make for captivating TV, the simple fact is he was only in two episodes. He had zero impact prior to that. I don't count manufactured flashbacks for continuity purposes...we never hear Hackman's name until "Forgive Us."

Vice wasn't really into ongoing villains (most shows during this era weren't, actually). A case might be made for Maynard or Ira Stone (Stone was more of a hindrance than a help any time he was on screen), but again you only have two episodes.

But throughout the series, Crockett's biggest adversary was himself. There are far too many examples of this.

[Mr. Calderon]

4 hours ago, M.A.Castillo said:

Hello to all after many years of absence from this forum!

Just got a notification that I had earned my "Ten Year Veteran" badge! 

Off-topic aside: Who do you think was the main antagonist of Crockett's through out the entire series?

To me it is no doubt about it -- Frank Hackman.

Why? To me he was the epitomy of "evil" in the series. A sadistic psychopath with no conscience. 

Starting from season 3's "Forgive Us Our Debts" by annihilating Crockett's then partner (in 1980)

to killing Crockett's future wife, Caitlin and their unborn baby in the season 4 episode "Deliver Us From Evil" (in 1988).

I do firmly believe that Crockett did everyone a favor by bringing Hackman  down at the end of "Deliver Us From Evil", I really do...

Hackman is the crockett's calderone

[Robbie C.]

13 minutes ago, Mr. Calderon said:

Hackman is the crockett's calderone

Only at certain points in the series. Before that it was Maynard. And Lombard also factored in.

But none of that changes the basic point: Crockett was Crockett's Calderone. Pure and simple. Most of his major issues arose from within himself. Even Hackman. Maybe especially Hackman.

[jpaul1]

Crockett is a cop. there is no real antagonism IMO. as the cop/law always win. even with Castillo as we can see as a kind of opponent, there's no real opposition as Castillo has always the last word.

if we talk of someone who touched his conscience the most, i think Evan Freed is one of those who created the most problems for him. with Evan Freed Crockett has a really complicated equation to solve. so yeah, i think the himself answer is a good one

regarding Hackman, personnally i consider that character as unrealistic. i never stay a lot onto these episodes. as i told several times already, for me no human can play with the reaper the way he does

[Dadrian]

7 hours ago, Dadrian said:

Himself

To elaborate, I think this is part of why Crockett’s character resonated so well:

Despite our best efforts, man (human) is, at times, his own worst enemy.
 

We assess the situation, look within ourselves, and choose a plan of action based upon those factors withstanding our current world view.
 

Win (Viking Bikers) or fail (Forgive Us Our Debts) we reap the spoils or learn from our shortcomings. 

[mjcmmv]

7 hours ago, Dadrian said:

Himself

This is spot on! He was always at war with himself!

[mjcmmv]

4 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

To elaborate, I think this is part of why Crockett’s character resonated so well:

Despite our best efforts, man (human) is, at times, his own worst enemy.
 

 

Yes! 

 

 

 

[Crockettt]

IMHO Sonny Burnett was the main antagonist for Crockett.

[Kladdagh]

We are all agree ... Himself 

[johnnyfarragut]

Izzy.

No. It's himself. He lets his passion affect his ability to perform. The thing is, it's usually not him but those close to him who suffer the consequences. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by johnnyfarragut

[Dadrian]

I would say Switek is a close runner up.  

Think of how many times Switek thwarted Crockett’s efforts!

[Tom]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Dadrian:

To elaborate, I think this is part of why Crockett’s character resonated so well:

Despite our best efforts, man (human) is, at times, his own worst enemy.
 

We assess the situation, look within ourselves, and choose a plan of action based upon those factors withstanding our current world view.
 

Win (Viking Bikers) or fail (Forgive Us Our Debts) we reap the spoils or learn from our shortcomings. 

Agree. That came out well in many episodes, obviously in the Burnett Arc in season4/5, but also strongly in The Good collar. Crockett assured himself that he would save Archie and that he had the whole situation under his control and when Archie died Crockett freaked out in the car, as he realized that he could not meet his own standards and he was rather a pawn in the game than the saviour. Same in "Milk run" at the end where he failed with saving both boys. That resonated in his shrink confession in "Miami Squeeze" later ("I thought I could make a difference, but that is lost now....").

[Miami Beau]

If we are talking technical terms, it’s undoubtedly Frank Hackman. We can all talk about personal demons and stuff but it terms of an actual person, it’s Hackman. 

I say technical because I’m following Sonny’s bio chronologically. Some have said Hackman comes into the series late. Agreed in terms of an audiences point of view(mid season 3). But Crockett was dealing with Hackman back in 1980 with Frankel. 

Crockett’s Vice days start from 1980 and end 1989. We unfortunately as an audience, miss out on Crockett’s first 4 years of him on active duty with him and Frankel, Evan and Eddie Rivera. 
Looking at that timeline, Hackman made the biggest long terms damage to Crockett over the course of his Vice days. 

[Robbie C.]

1 hour ago, Miami Beau said:

If we are talking technical terms, it’s undoubtedly Frank Hackman. We can all talk about personal demons and stuff but it terms of an actual person, it’s Hackman. 

I say technical because I’m following Sonny’s bio chronologically. Some have said Hackman comes into the series late. Agreed in terms of an audiences point of view(mid season 3). But Crockett was dealing with Hackman back in 1980 with Frankel. 

Crockett’s Vice days start from 1980 and end 1989. We unfortunately as an audience, miss out on Crockett’s first 4 years of him on active duty with him and Frankel, Evan and Eddie Rivera. 
Looking at that timeline, Hackman made the biggest long terms damage to Crockett over the course of his Vice days. 

I don't consider Hackman to be historical, because we never hear about him until that episode. It was an invented chronology to suit the episode (which isn't unusual for Vice). And if we want to go that route, Maynard predates Hackman by many years. There's also the purported history with Guzman (which led directly to the death of Larry Zito). I get that Hackman is something of a fan favorite (not one of mine, though), but if we're using that logic to list him as Crockett's nemesis, there are other candidates. In terms of time alone, Maynard trumps Hackman, since he goes back to the late 1960s (more likely 1970, but the episodes make it clear Sonny met Maynard well before Stone showed him the heroin in the body bag).

Frankel also was Robbery, which is where Crockett was before moving to Vice.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Robbie C.

[Miami Beau]

On 3/1/2023 at 9:11 PM, Robbie C. said:

I don't consider Hackman to be historical, because we never hear about him until that episode. It was an invented chronology to suit the episode (which isn't unusual for Vice). And if we want to go that route, Maynard predates Hackman by many years. There's also the purported history with Guzman (which led directly to the death of Larry Zito). I get that Hackman is something of a fan favorite (not one of mine, though), but if we're using that logic to list him as Crockett's nemesis, there are other candidates. In terms of time alone, Maynard trumps Hackman, since he goes back to the late 1960s (more likely 1970, but the episodes make it clear Sonny met Maynard well before Stone showed him the heroin in the body bag).

Frankel also was Robbery, which is where Crockett was before moving to Vice.

I totally get what you mean and you’re correct in one way. Captain Real Estate did come up before Hackman. But I assumed were looking specifically at Sonny’s active years in Vice only (80/89).
The question is, who was Sonny’s main antagonist in the series. Hackman killed Sonny’s wife and unborn child, so undoubtedly, Hackman is the answer. At the end of 1989, even though Sonny had already taken his revenge on Hackman, Sonny was still reeling from the loss of Caitlin. That had the most effect on him and the budget cuts/Highsmith and Andrew Baker fiasco was just the cherry on top for Sonny to say goodbye. 

I think you read my response as if I was saying my opinion. I wasn’t, I was just following the MV cannon law. 

Edited March 5, 2023 by Miami Beau

[Robbie C.]

I don't think you're necessarily following cannon law because Hackman appears very late in the series. You might be able to make a solid argument that Hackman was Sonny's nemesis in the last half of the series, but there's no basis to make the statement for the first part. He had no impact on what happened prior to his appearance in "Forgive Us our Debts," which is almost exactly halfway through Season 3 (there's no mention of him when we meet John Malone, Crockett's old boss in Robbery in "Shadows in the Dark"). And after that he disappears completely...only to reappear in "Deliver Us from Evil" (the next to last episode in Season 4). And in the lead-in to "Mirror Image" Hackman isn't mentioned at all. For someone to be considered the main antagonist in a series, they need to appear more than twice. They should also have a visible plot impact of some kind early on. Hackman does not. He's on screen as much as Lombard or Maynard in terms of episode count, so he has no edge there.

I still stand by the position that Sonny is his own main antagonist during the entire run of the series. It's his decisions (or lack of decision) that create pretty much every life-changing thing that happens to him (If he doesn't fall for Hackman's con, there is no "Deliver Us from Evil"), starting with his pushing Eddie to go forward with the meet with Corky in the pilot episode.

I'd also say it's really difficult for a series like Miami Vice to have a main antagonist. It's just not how the show evolved after the first season. I'd further contend that given the fragmented development of Vice and the constantly shifting show runner landscape, it's very difficult to assert there was much in the way of "cannon law" unless it was imposed by the actors themselves (Edward James Olmos comes to mind). 

[Robbie C.]

Actually, if there's one example in Vice of something close to a series-long antagonist, it would be Tubbs and the Calderone family. They feature directly in three of the five seasons, and in each instance are going after Tubbs in some way. And always with a callback to something that happened earlier in the series, stretching all the way back to the opening moments of the pilot episode.

[Miami Beau]

On 3/5/2023 at 6:25 PM, Robbie C. said:

Actually, if there's one example in Vice of something close to a series-long antagonist, it would be Tubbs and the Calderone family. They feature directly in three of the five seasons, and in each instance are going after Tubbs in some way. And always with a callback to something that happened earlier in the series, stretching all the way back to the opening moments of the pilot episode.

Agreed completely with Tubbs. 

Regards Sonny, I’m talking in overall terms. His partner was killed by Hackman, prior to us ever seeing him in Brothers keeper when the show began. He then gets dooped by Hackman in season 3 which ultimately leads to Caitlin’s death in season 4.

When we take everything into account, Hackman did the most damage to Sonny during his Vice days (1980 to 1989). I get the show started in 1984 but I’m taking into account the events starting from 1980 onwards. 

But anyways let’s agree to disagree 

[airtommy]

The biggest antagonist is Bob Ballard.  He steals Crockett's wife and then, even worse, he hides in a secret house that we can't find!

[Robbie C.]

1 hour ago, Miami Beau said:

Agreed completely with Tubbs. 

Regards Sonny, I’m talking in overall terms. His partner was killed by Hackman, prior to us ever seeing him in Brothers keeper when the show began. He then gets dooped by Hackman in season 3 which ultimately leads to Caitlin’s death in season 4.

When we take everything into account, Hackman did the most damage to Sonny during his Vice days (1980 to 1989). I get the show started in 1984 but I’m taking into account the events starting from 1980 onwards. 

But anyways let’s agree to disagree 

We will agree to disagree, but Crockett wasn't in Vice in 1980. He was in Robbery. And I will still contend Sonny did more damage to Sonny during his Vice days than anyone else...including Hackman. Hackman doesn't exist without decisions Sonny makes (he goes to the death chamber if Sonny doesn't fall for his act, so his actual agency is very limited no matter how involved his plan is). And if we're talking overall terms...it's perfectly possible to say Maynard's actions during the Fall of Saigon might have motivated Sonny to go into law enforcement to begin with, and maybe sent him in the direction of Vice as well. Something must have motivated him to move out of Robbery, and I doubt it was Hackman. If anything that might have steered him to Homicide. But the subconscious memory of heroin in the body bags could have steered him to Vice. So using the overall terms logic, without Maynard we may never have seen Sonny as a cop, let alone a Vice detective. And as Evan made clear, to "get" Sonny you have to go back beyond 1980...arguably to 1975 (or earlier if you start with Buddies).

Typically if you're talking about an antagonist in a series, especially at this time in TV history, it's based on things we see happening during the series (like Tubbs and the Calderone clan). Hackman just appears on screen too late to be taken seriously as Sonny's antagonist throughout the entire series. One flashback doesn't change the fact we don't see or hear about the guy for two and a half seasons.

Anyhow, yeah...we'll agree to disagree. Most of these things go back to the way they tended to present Sonny as something of an incomplete character when compared to Tubbs or Castillo.

[Swevicus]

Probably himself - like so many of us, Sonny was his own worst enemy, which eventually culminated in the Burnett arc (Mirror Image/Hostile Takeover/Redemption in Blood, with Heart of Night as a sort of epilogue). Might as well have just changed his bloody name and have done with it.