Gina and Sonny

[NeonHumidity]

Given the length and depth of their relationship as well as the many interpretations people have of each party's view and the relationship overall, I think they deserve their own thread.

I have mine; I've fictionalized it at ongoing length.

For now I'll just say... the show was good at being subtle.  And confusing.  And Saundra and Don had superlative chemistry.

This is only part of what happens in "Whatever Works", just for example...

She's laughing at him, but she's the only one who doesn't say anything mean to him... and they're wearing practically the exact same color...

And more significantly:

Uh, that's not how you stand with someone you've broken up with twice and told to stay out of your life not that long ago... there is actually enough space in the conference room for you not to be touching each other, you two... (but if you want to act like it's middle school and you're sneaking around in the back of the class, who am I to stop you)?

[NeonHumidity]

"Whatever Works, Part II"

So, going back to the beginning of this episode, there's Crockett's nameless, semi-infamous, forgettable one-night-stand.  Let's look at her a little more closely...

"Please call me, Sonny"/ "Please dance with me, Sonny"  

Does he do either?  No.  Is it implied he's now feeling a lot more guilty about the latter?  Yes.  

Is it also implied he probably slept with this random woman because under the influence she somehow seemed like Gina?  Also yes.

Do the Gina ties stop here?  They don't.

So as opposed to this time, where he's completely ignoring her, has to pick up a sordid mess from unfulfilling shenanigans, and loses the Daytona to boot...

...the last time we saw Sonny in his (blue, more optimistic, not-Daytona black) underpants at the crack of dawn on the boat, he was pretty damn involved and happy.

And with good reason.

Everybody was in such a good mood here that despite hearing about Barbara Caro's murder minutes later, Sonny holds onto this memory (as a positive) for a long, long time.  TBC.

As far as "Whatever Works" is concerned, though, it's a surprising amount of stuff to catch considering it's all in the background, it's not an episode about their relationship, and Gina doesn't even have any lines!  Now multiply that by 100, literally...

 

[NeonHumidity]

So, how long does Sonny hold on to that...?

It's four years later, he's been married again, he's been horrifically widowed and is about to go murder the guy responsible... I saw this on my rewatch of "Deliver Us From Evil", and my jaw dropped.

1. Well, on the one hand, thank you for sharing your feelings with the class, James... 
2. ...on the other... oh, Sonny, you are so screwed up!!
3. It's not ok to have barely-dressed pictures of your exes somewhere your spouse will never see them.  Less okay still if the reason she's barely dressed is entirely because of you.  (And in the modern day, he'd be in triple trouble for having a picture of a coworker like that at work, no less.)  As others have noted, except for a wedding picture when he's initially sitting in the boat and grieving, he has no pictures of Caitlin at all.  And I don't believe for one second he views Gina's picture in some kind of innocent sentimental context (it's more like Caitlin's picture of Will), or that he just stuck it in there and forgot about it for three years.  Not only is a psych Ph.D not required to decipher his feelings, she's between Rico and Billy, whom the show makes very clear are the other two most important people in his life.
4. So for anyone who views the relationship as "Gina's hopelessly in love with him; Sonny wasn't interested/moved on long ago"... I would say the end of Season 4 puts some fairly graphic evidence to the contrary. 

[vicegirl85]

Good catch!

I certainly don't think it was a case of Sonny not being interested/ moved on long ago.  Otherwise the embrace and kiss in Blood and Roses wouldn't have occurred.  However, I do believe Sonny thought he was protecting Gina by avoiding involvement with her, and Gina--to a somewhat lesser extent--was trying to protect herself from emotional involvement with a guy who can't commit to her because of demons from his past or fears of what could happen to a woman who is linked to him.  I think they fought the attraction; he first, because he recognized he was still on a rebound arc and believed he would hurt Gina or else put her in danger.  She was angry and jealous over Brenda when she told him off, but I also think she came to believe he might eventually turn to her.  She wasn't about to expose her heart until he was ready to commit to her.

I've said here before that IMO the reason she came up with the NZ honeymoon was so that she wouldn't have to imagine what Sonny and Caitlin would be doing every hour of the day (due to time differences, at any given time for her it would be a totally different time of day in NZ).  Without the internet, checking the time in another part of the world would be a lot more effort.   

While I'm somewhat doubtful if they could have maintained a relationship as a couple for the long term, I'll die on the hill that they were soulmates.  

[NeonHumidity]

There are a couple of other reasons I have for her sending him to NZ that should come up in the next couple of fics in line, but the already-published one is that she hopes it's far enough away that she will never, ever set foot there herself and have to think about what he did there (which is true enough).  Too bad tickets to the Moon were sold out, huh, Gina? 

*shrug*  Some people say "Blood & Roses" means "they're just friends".... which I disagree with and could probably debunk pretty thoroughly, but impressions like that or "Gina's the only one pining" somehow take hold, despite (lots of) evidence to the contrary.

[vicegirl85]

I'm with you about Blood and Roses.  The kiss may have been about regret or wishful thinking about what might have been--but I don't believe it was just about platonic friendship.

[NeonHumidity]

I just went to rewatch the scene, and yeah.... there is nothing screaming "platonic friendship!" in this, at all, starting with Sonny could have talked to her anywhere that wasn't her apartment.  Like Gold Coast.  Where 95% of the rest of the show happens. 

Also, on the "Sonny, you are so screwed up...!" list!

"I just don't want you to do, um, anything reckless. [wraps his arms around her waist] ...You hear me?"

Are you including yourself on that list, James...?

And then he kisses her!  (And I had to pause to LMAO.) 

The kiss on the lips could be passably-friendly.  (It's not, in context, but it could be.)  Kisses on the neck are never platonic.  Never, ever, ever.

(Also, Sonny?  She's cosplaying as Billie Holiday.  I think recklessness and trouble are implied.)

There's a lot more in this one, but if you counted all the ways Sonny has reason to look so grave and sad right here, you might even need another hand.  (To go with the four visible...)

Also, no matter how hard I try (not that I'm watching in the greatest quality), I can't see his wedding ring.  Was Caitlin really out of the picture to that extent, aside from thought or mind?

Edited March 20 by NeonHumidity
Can anyone see it?

[vicegirl85]

I thought he never wore his ring while working, and although it's hard to be certain if he's working when this scene takes place, he's wearing some of his usual "working clothes."  Actually it seems almost that he's always undercover unless he's at home or in the squad's HQ.  So that bit doesn't seem out of place to me.  For the rest of what you said--YES.  100%.

I think part of Gina's subsequent reckless behavior (allowing herself to become intoxicated and sleep with Mosca) was a reaction to the feelings Sonny stirred up in this scene, which she had been repressing as best she could since the wedding.  

[NeonHumidity]

Well, considering how much fuss they made that Caitlin was publicly married to Burnett, they may as well have left the ring.  Of course it would have looked a lot worse for artistic purposes.  Not a nice moral for the kids to have him trying to save Gina-darlin' by cheating on his absent wife.  

Gina is not entirely innocent, here, either, between her 'cat who ate the canary' looks and 'please fix my necklace Sonny [even though it doesn't need fixing and I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself so I'm going to use this dusty ancient ploy] because I really just want you closer to me'.  (Side note 1: she says 'clip' and not 'clasp'.  Gina doesn't have a lot of experience with jewelry.  Side note 2: her dress looks a lot better with him on it. )

Pretty obvious that what was going through Crockett's head for at least several seconds was "Please, please...  Go to bed with me.  Forget Mosca, and I'll keep you safe that way..."  (while we all ignore how reckless THAT would have been...) and while this is a Reasonably Bad Idea [and only not a Very Bad Idea because his marriage is such a mess anyway], it does show how much Sonny would sacrifice for her... in his terribly messed-up, ill-thought-out kinda way.  Still the Knight in Dented Armor from the pilot.

And I think Gina definitely wanted to know that he would, but not necessarily to call it in, at least not right then and there.

From a brief internet survey: 

• A kiss on the neck is a romantic gesture that tells you that he wants you immensely.
• A kiss on the lips - she really appreciates your love
• A quick, dry kiss, often with the mouth closed, is actually how people in a romantic relationship greet each other upon arrival and departure. If your partner kisses you like this at home, where no one can see, it is a sign that you have become an essential part of her routine and life.

I think that about sums up the non-verbal dialogue.

It's also worth noting that she makes one bad joke pointing out he's a complete hypocrite about recklessness and suddenly they're both grinning from ear-to-ear again.

[NeonHumidity]

14 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

I think part of Gina's subsequent reckless behavior (allowing herself to become intoxicated and sleep with Mosca) was a reaction to the feelings Sonny stirred up in this scene, which she had been repressing as best she could since the wedding.  

I'm not sure Gina's extremely questionable consent situation and likely date-rape can be blamed on anything other than Mosca.  (Who, when he offers the standard litany of excuses, does not invoke that they were inebriated at the time, and given his personality, probably would have found some way to coerce her whether they were drinking or sober.)

It doesn't matter what she was wearing, what she was doing, or how much she was drinking.  She said no - repeatedly - and he didn't listen.

In my view (and for the plot purposes) Sonny comes and offers her his love due to how badly things go for her later, not the other way around.  Gina can play all the games she wants (and have total control) with a man who cares for and respects her, however badly he chooses to express it.  She has no such ability with Mosca, who's not only a violent, ruthless murderer, but doesn't care about her at all, whatever he says.

"Don't play with love; it's a dangerous game."

Edited March 21 by NeonHumidity

[NeonHumidity]

"Blood & Roses", cont.

If you look at Gina being held by him, she's pretty happy.  She's safe.  She's downright blissful, practically.

Sonny, conversely, is about one part turned on and three parts desperate and miserable, at least until she gets a smile from him.  

I wanted to see what happened when he kissed her.  And the answer is... she's just watching him do it.

So she's happy, but she's not getting involved, not past a certain point. 

She's running the show.  Maybe she thinks she's being less reckless than him (that's not hard).

Maybe Sonny showing up (and Gina deciding to test and play with the situation instead of saying "Get lost, I'll talk to you later" or at least "go sit on the couch") was a Bad Idea because it gave Gina more faith in being able to handle someone like Mosca (or led her to continue viewing Frank as somehow less dangerous), and she should not, not, not have equated the two.
 

[vicegirl85]

22 hours ago, NeonHumidity said:

Well, considering how much fuss they made that Caitlin was publicly married to Burnett, they may as well have left the ring.  Of course it would have looked a lot worse for artistic purposes.  Not a nice moral for the kids to have him trying to save Gina-darlin' by cheating on his absent wife.  

Good point about publicity around Caitlin marrying Burnett.  I don't remember Burnett wearing a wedding ring aside from the wedding, but my memory could be faulty!  However, Gina of course was aware he was married.

22 hours ago, NeonHumidity said:

Gina is not entirely innocent, here, either, between her 'cat who ate the canary' looks and 'please fix my necklace Sonny [even though it doesn't need fixing and I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself so I'm going to use this dusty ancient ploy] because I really just want you closer to me'.  (Side note 1: she says 'clip' and not 'clasp'.  Gina doesn't have a lot of experience with jewelry.  Side note 2: her dress looks a lot better with him on it. )

Pretty obvious that what was going through Crockett's head for at least several seconds was "Please, please...  Go to bed with me.  Forget Mosca, and I'll keep you safe that way..."  (while we all ignore how reckless THAT would have been...) and while this is a Reasonably Bad Idea [and only not a Very Bad Idea because his marriage is such a mess anyway], it does show how much Sonny would sacrifice for her... in his terribly messed-up, ill-thought-out kinda way.  Still the Knight in Dented Armor from the pilot.

And I think Gina definitely wanted to know that he would, but not necessarily to call it in, at least not right then and there.

It's fascinating to me how differently people can interpret the same scene.  I definitely think both of them were fully aware of each other and remembering their old relationship that they both thought they had put firmly in the rearview mirror.  In this scene, Gina (at least) realizes it's not really in the rearview mirror.  However, I don't interpret it that either of them had thoughts of going to bed together.  It's OK if you see it like that, but I don't.

22 hours ago, NeonHumidity said:

I'm not sure Gina's extremely questionable consent situation and likely date-rape can be blamed on anything other than Mosca.  (Who, when he offers the standard litany of excuses, does not invoke that they were inebriated at the time, and given his personality, probably would have found some way to coerce her whether they were drinking or sober.)

It doesn't matter what she was wearing, what she was doing, or how much she was drinking.  She said no - repeatedly - and he didn't listen.

In my view (and for the plot purposes) Sonny comes and offers her his love due to how badly things go for her later, not the other way around.  Gina can play all the games she wants (and have total control) with a man who cares for and respects her, however badly he chooses to express it.  She has no such ability with Mosca, who's not only a violent, ruthless murderer, but doesn't care about her at all, whatever he says.

Agreed that she said no, and Mosca didn't stop; he would have coerced her regardless.  But he was so arrogant that he thought no woman could resist his charms.  Remember that he later said he didn't know she was a cop until after he slept with her.  Gina did have confidence she could outwit him and learn the information she was after without the physical situation going farther than she intended.  I don't think she was drunk, but Mosca deliberately did ply her with alcohol.  Like she has done before, Gina was overconfident and went into a one-on-one undercover situation without backup, risking her cover.  She acquiesced because she thought it was the only way to maintain that cover.  Yes, it was basically a date-rape situation and of course consent matters.  But as she tells Trudy later, "there was just something about him..." which I always mentally finished "that reminded me of Sonny."   I'm not understanding how Sonny "comes and offers her his love [before the "date"] due to how badly things go for her later"--only he makes this offer (non-verbally) ahead of her "date" with Mosca.  Again, different interpretations by different viewers.  But I have never interpreted that Sonny was prepared to cheat on Caitlin.  I don't know what he was thinking--but I never thought it was that.

7 hours ago, NeonHumidity said:

So she's happy, but she's not getting involved, not past a certain point. 

She's running the show.  Maybe she thinks she's being less reckless than him (that's not hard).

Maybe Sonny showing up (and Gina deciding to test and play with the situation instead of saying "Get lost, I'll talk to you later" or at least "go sit on the couch") was a Bad Idea because it gave Gina more faith in being able to handle someone like Mosca (or led her to continue viewing Frank as somehow less dangerous), and she should not, not, not have equated the two.

Maybe.  I can see why you took this from the scene.  Definitely not hard to be less reckless than Sonny--but they are usually neck-and-neck for recklessness.  I didn't see Sonny as feeling desperate and miserable.  I didn't perceive it as Gina equating Mosca and Sonny, in terms of being able to handle them.  The way I see it, the realization that Sonny still had feelings for her--and she for him--in that way, confused her, disturbed her undercover mindset and made her just the slightest bit more careless and more receptive to Mosca's attempts at seduction--even as she initially resisted. 

Other people here have not necessarily interpreted any given scene the same way I have.  In some cases, I've changed my mind, and in some cases, not.  Don't know that I've ever convinced someone else to change their mind, LOL.  That doesn't mean either of us is right or wrong; so often MV gave us scenes that aren't fully explained and whose meaning is ambiguous.  The different interpretations make it more interesting and I look forward to reading more of yours. 

 

 

 

 

[pahonu]

vicegirl85 and NeonHumidity, I’m enjoying the in depth analysis! 

[NeonHumidity]

1 hour ago, pahonu said:

vicegirl85 and NeonHumidity, I’m enjoying the in depth analysis! 

You’re welcome.  How much of the series would you like?  I’ll do “When Irish Eyes…” after this, unless somebody has any requests.

[NeonHumidity]

11 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

She acquiesced because she thought it was the only way to maintain that cover.  Yes, it was basically a date-rape situation and of course consent matters.  But as she tells Trudy later, "there was just something about him..." which I always mentally finished "that reminded me of Sonny."   I'm not understanding how Sonny "comes and offers her his love [before the "date"] due to how badly things go for her later"--only he makes this offer (non-verbally) ahead of her "date" with Mosca.  Again, different interpretations by different viewers.  But I have never interpreted that Sonny was prepared to cheat on Caitlin.  I don't know what he was thinking--but I never thought it was that.

Maybe.  I can see why you took this from the scene.  Definitely not hard to be less reckless than Sonny--but they are usually neck-and-neck for recklessness.  I didn't see Sonny as feeling desperate and miserable.  I didn't perceive it as Gina equating Mosca and Sonny, in terms of being able to handle them.  The way I see it, the realization that Sonny still had feelings for her--and she for him--in that way, confused her, disturbed her undercover mindset and made her just the slightest bit more careless and more receptive to Mosca's attempts at seduction--even as she initially resisted. 

Other people here have not necessarily interpreted any given scene the same way I have.  In some cases, I've changed my mind, and in some cases, not.  Don't know that I've ever convinced someone else to change their mind, LOL.  That doesn't mean either of us is right or wrong; so often MV gave us scenes that aren't fully explained and whose meaning is ambiguous.  The different interpretations make it more interesting and I look forward to reading more of yours. 

“Sonny first -> Mosca later" is from the story perspective, like I said.  She gets the good version of things first partly as a hedge against the nightmare later; it's not that the nightmare occurs because there's a good thing that happens first.  Obviously in-show, they don't know what's going to happen.  

Gina never seems hesitant or confused once while Sonny's there, so I don't think anybody's feelings or the way they ended up being expressed was a shock.  She not only gets him as close to her as she decently can, she sends him away with another kiss (from her) and a joke and a smile.  Like I said, she's happy — and in full control.  She doesn't seem like a woman who was taken off guard or disconcerted by any of this in the slightest.

And from the standard infidelity rule of thumb, given Sonny would almost definitely not approve of Caitlin being alone at her ex's place and especially not being held by a guy who's cuddling her and kissing her neck (not to mention the nearly-naked picture in his locker!)... he is already cheating on Caitlin. Emotionally for a certainty.  Did he walk into Gina’s apartment intending to do all of that, and maybe more?  Who knows, but he was alone, in a dangerous place he shouldn’t have been, with no backup and seemingly getting carried away.  Sound familiar?  (Gina also happens to be dressed in a killer LBD that doubles quite nicely as a classic "mistress outfit", fwiw.)

He wrapped himself around her to "protect" her... he just conveniently put her in another absurdly reckless situation.  And no one made him kiss her.  His repenting-at-leisure marriage is a troubled absent mess, he still has very powerful feelings for Gina who cares deeply for him, too, and he is about to be proven right about how much danger she's in.  I suspect many of the male forum members will confirm that if Gina had made any kind of response or overture in that direction after he kissed her (as opposed to the "friendlier", loving one she did make while still letting him keep his hands on her body), he would have gone to bed with her right then and there, everything else be damned.

I seem to view it from the opposite perspective;  Mosca is not the one who reminds her of Sonny (that's a different episode), and I think Gina's fascination with him is partly how different they are (but compare and contrast Celeste's relationship with Burnett, which is somewhat more similar).  But also, Mosca is charming as long as you don't withhold money, sex, or anything else from him, and Gina found him attractive.  She's trying to express it and can't, in the depths of shame and trauma, and Trudy lets her off the hook with "We're women, we make bad decisions...?" (which may be one of the worst lines in the show.)

But I do think Gina was in a situation where she gracefully and lovingly "handled" one guy even while flirting with him and getting handled herself.  To have Sonny push her like that and resist him may have let her think she was ready for whatever Mosca (whom she already made clear a couple of times that whatever the attraction was, she was a professional and did not want to sleep with him, including right up to the date-rape) may have thrown at her.  She was wrong.

I don't understand why Gina didn’t have her gun with her.  It might or might not have helped anything, but surely she would have needed it in case she was arresting someone?  There’s no way any of her male colleagues would be in an equally skeevy, dangerous situation unarmed.

Edited March 22 by NeonHumidity

[vicegirl85]

12 hours ago, NeonHumidity said:

 I’ll do “When Irish Eyes…” after this, unless somebody has any requests.

I'll be fascinated to read your take on that one--it's a favorite episode of mine, and I've expounded on my thoughts about it in depth (I think) in the DVD Episode Discussion forum (and probably other places here, LOL).

[NeonHumidity]

Side note to "Blood & Roses": 

I know this show loves mirrors and reflection shots, but here is Elena in a white dress and her fake pearls and a pseudo-love triangle.

Did not go well that time, either.

[NeonHumidity]

While in the rabbit hole, I happened to spy this, and 'oh, sh--':

It's funny, because it feels like yellow is usually a positive or at least a hopeful color for Sonny.

I hope one or both of them burned that sweater by now... 

[NeonHumidity]

While I still don't know why Gina didn't have her gun in "Blood and Roses", here we go with "When Irish Eyes Are Lying"... what do you mean, that's not the title? 

Fair warning: I don't think this is the greatest episode, I don't like Sean, I think the best thing about it is (some of) Gina's hair and clothes, and I think the music is lousy on top of that.  So this will be snark-laced.

Okay, so here we are looking at Sonina once again through the lens of a third party (first time on Gina's part).

Supposedly a third party, anyway...

(Although this is a beautiful shot)
If you don't want to imply he's like Sonny or that she sees something like Sonny in him?  Give him a real shirt, don't give him those pants, and give him different initials, maybe, for starters...?
This is also White Gina.  White Gina shows up for certain significant things.  Sometimes when things are going well.

We then also see Black Gina:

Black Gina shows up for other significant things (this, killing Pedrosa, Blood & Roses, obviously...)  Usually means something "darker" will happen, funnily enough.

(She comes back later. ...Already dressed for the funeral of her "very sick" friend.)
(Side note: Sean calls her "baby" and "love".  In theory, "darlin'' would be in there (it's a frequent Irish thing...!).  In practice, I am almost certain the show did not go there.  However, I cannot bring myself to actually check.  So anyone who wants to sit through this one with a fine-tooth comb, have at it.)

(Rico says Sonny's not happy about it either) "Yeah.  Real objective."

The funny part is, we also get this.  

...Sonny's making her sad.  Still.

"Hey, don't you make sexual references about my work wife; only I get to do that, pal."

Hi, Sonny.  Seriously, you can see how much it set him off that Visiting Unpleasant British Guy managed to imply Gina was a) helpless, b) a liability, and c) vulnerable to being used sexually willingly or unwillingly, all in one short sentence.  Nice job, chap. 

(TBC...)

Edited March 24 by NeonHumidity

[NeonHumidity]

"I wonder why this is the episode where everyone wore green," Part 2.  This took me longer than watching an MV episode!

"And what if she is right?  What if she is...?"

 

"What about her?"

For all Gina's acidity about "real objective", he's... not -- but it actually swings the other way.  I don't think Sonny would have been inclined to give Carroon so much credit if he hadn't been having his "I want her to be happy" moment, a season-plus before Caitlin.  Unlike Mosca, he hasn't seen the ugliest side of Carroon and this only turned into a case really, really fast, so I guess "supposedly reformed ex-Provo" is good enough for her, if that's what she really wants...

Also, we know he thinks she's "too far out"... so he's not actually completely thrilled about this by any measure.  And yet he's trying.

(Side note: Ah yes, this is the episode where the Daytona gets Concorde'd. [aka, the awesome part, rip poor loyal Cortona] I dunno what the deeper symbolism here is (yet), but he doesn't lose it in a random episode; he loses it in a Gina episode; he loses it tangentially because of his knockoff (lol)... he loses the car, but he gets Gina back (in a sense)?  Gina is more precious to him than almost $425K (adjusted for inflation) of Ferrari...?  There probably is something.)

If he'd didn't have the tan, they'd look exactly like a 40's movie.

So let's talk about the fun part where they're both not happy.

"He's a lying cheating bastard?  That's okay, you already got one..."

(no comment; I just like the 'if looks could kill' glance.  Not necessarily directed at Sonny here, but she is obviously upset.)

And the funny part.

(He actually checks twice to see who's out there, and even though it's only Trudy, the implication may be he did not do whatever he actually wanted to do, here.)

Gina is so far beyond caring at this point, she probably would have welcomed a real kiss, or at least a bigger hug.  At any rate, we're a long way from "this is a municipal building!" in all sorts of ways.

He is holding her hand though.  It's out of frame but you can tell.

Again, if you're not trying to have him be Terrorist Ersatz Sonny...?  Don't do this.  You can shoot down a plane in non-pale clothing and without sunglasses, Sean.

"Sean, Sean! The sob" was going to kill her, of course, because she wouldn't let him blow up the Concorde.  (Which I only realized on this rewatch... originally I thought he was just going for Crockett.)  Thank goodness Real Sonny showed up as a partner-in-distraction and higher caliber.

"Mullets were last season, pal."

It also took till this rewatch to realize Gina hit him in the firing arm and Sonny sent him over the railing, which makes sense (what he carries is much higher-powered).

...at least they're back to being united in color.

It's interesting... she hugs him after "Give a Little, Take a Little"; she sobs on him here; after "Blood & Roses"...? They just stare at each other from opposite sides of a freight elevator.  He gets shot and she cries her eyes out and hugs Castillo.  We don't know.

[vicegirl85]

2 hours ago, NeonHumidity said:

(snipped)

"And what if she is right?  What if she is...?"

"What about her?"

For all Gina's acidity about "real objective", he's... not -- but it actually swings the other way.  I don't think Sonny would have been inclined to give Carroon so much credit if he hadn't been having his "I want her to be happy" moment, a season-plus before Caitlin.  Unlike Mosca, he hasn't seen the ugliest side of Carroon and this only turned into a case really, really fast, so I guess "supposedly reformed ex-Provo" is good enough for her, if that's what she really wants...

Also, we know he thinks she's "too far out"... so he's not actually completely thrilled about this by any measure.  And yet he's trying.

(Side note: Ah yes, this is the episode where the Daytona gets Concorde'd. [aka, the awesome part, rip poor loyal Cortona] I dunno what the deeper symbolism here is (yet), but he doesn't lose it in a random episode; he loses it in a Gina episode; he loses it tangentially because of his knockoff (lol)... he loses the car, but he gets Gina back (in a sense)?  Gina is more precious to him than almost $425K (adjusted for inflation) of Ferrari...?  There probably is something.)

(snipped)

"Sean, Sean! The sob" was going to kill her, of course, because she wouldn't let him blow up the Concorde.  (Which I only realized on this rewatch... originally I thought he was just going for Crockett.)  Thank goodness Real Sonny showed up as a partner-in-distraction and higher caliber.

.

Not sure I am in agreement/ understood a couple of your snarky comments , but re:  Sonny sticking up for Gina to Cross--I think this was similar to a sibling pair who fight and argue with each other, but let an outsider come in and pick on one, and the other one rushes to their defense.  Although I don't particularly see Sonny and Gina as work siblings, I believe they had actively tried to be friends without benefits and had loyalty to each other that superseded accepting this unfriendly agent of a foreign government's demands.

Quoted from one of my earlier episode review comments:

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However one-sided and negatively the British agent was portrayed, ultimately it was also shown that the IRA (as personified by Carroon) and its American backers were willing to sacrifice innocent lives to make a statement.  Definitely at the time the IRA was widely considered a terrorist organization (by the mainstream US news outlets and publications), although (as it seemed at the time) it was also trying to reform its image (at least) into one that was willing and ready to participate in peaceful political processes to promote change. 

My reaction was that Sonny was offended that the British agent was trying to tell the Miami law enforcement agency how to run an operation, and also trying to get them to keep Gina in the dark about Carroon's purposes.  I do think there was a perception in the US (with a valid background) that the Catholic majority of Northern Ireland had been oppressed by the British government for many years (that doesn't excuse terrorism on the part of the IRA).  So in his resentment of the foreign agent trying to take over the operation and tell them what to do, he voiced that common feeling. 

Carroon at the time was trying to portray himself as rejecting the violence of the past and promoting only peaceful reforms.  Castillo, Sonny, and the rest of the squad weren't so gullible that they just swallowed that one whole, but they also weren't going to abandon one of their own.

Was there anything deliberate on the writer's/ director's part in having the Daytona destroyed in a Gina episode???  An intriguing idea but I'm skeptical about any intentions in that direction. 

I always understood Carroon intended to take out the Concorde--Gina knew this and it's the reason she was there; she truly had cared for him and hoped to be able to stop him before he did something that would cause the deaths of many innocent people and couldn't be walked back.  She would have killed Sean if he didn't stop, regardless of whether Sonny showed up or not--and Sean would have killed her first, if possible, in order to complete his mission.  Sean didn't think Gina would really shoot him, because of her feelings for him.  But when Sonny shows up and attracts Sean's attention, Gina acts without hesitation to protect Sonny--in spite of her feelings for Sean, who had led her to believe they had a real future together. 

From my original episode review:

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Re: the final scene on the parking garage roof:  Gina tried to get Carroon to put away his weapon and forego his planned attack on the Concorde. She still cares for him and knows he can avoid consequences since he hasn't "done anything yet."  Carroon turned his back on her and is reaching for his gun as Sonny shouts "Freeze!"  From my POV, Carroon was going to shoot Sonny (first, at least), and Gina could see this.  She fired first and then Sonny fired; both shots struck Carroon with enough force that he went over the wall.  Just as in Blood and Roses, Gina killed the bad guy who was in a position to kill Sonny.

I left your last screenshot because it's a favorite scene for me, and gave me hope that the Sonny-Gina relationship would be revived.  Sadly (for me!) that wasn't the case.  I still think it shows that the two of them truly cared for each other, although the caring might be described as "it's complicated."

[NeonHumidity]

2 minutes ago, vicegirl85 said:

I always understood Carroon intended to take out the Concorde--Gina knew this and it's the reason she was there; she truly had cared for him and hoped to be able to stop him before he did something that would cause the deaths of many innocent people and couldn't be walked back.  She would have killed Sean if he didn't stop, regardless of whether Sonny showed up or not--and Sean would have killed her first, if possible, in order to complete his mission.  Sean didn't think Gina would really shoot him, because of her feelings for him.  But when Sonny shows up and attracts Sean's attention, Gina acts without hesitation to protect Sonny--in spite of her feelings for Sean, who had led her to believe they had a real future together. 

Quote

Re: the final scene on the parking garage roof:  Gina tried to get Carroon to put away his weapon and forego his planned attack on the Concorde. She still cares for him and knows he can avoid consequences since he hasn't "done anything yet."  Carroon turned his back on her and is reaching for his gun as Sonny shouts "Freeze!"  From my POV, Carroon was going to shoot Sonny (first, at least), and Gina could see this.  She fired first and then Sonny fired; both shots struck Carroon with enough force that he went over the wall.  Just as in Blood and Roses, Gina killed the bad guy who was in a position to kill Sonny.

He'd was part of a terrorist plot.  Conspiracy, attempted murder, weapons with really bad provenance...  He'd definitely done something, he was on the verge of murdering people, and there were going to be consequences, and they both knew that.  The "Don't make me kill you!" was the truer plea.  At least she never moved out of firing position.

I originally thought Carroon was trying to shoot Sonny when he showed up and Gina was trying to protect Crockett, à la "Heroes of the Revolution" later.

He does do all that, but while watching at a slowed-down speed for screenshots, I realized he's reaching for (and had) his gun before Sonny shows up and before he has any awareness Crockett was there; he was going to kill Gina.  Renders all that "cloud walking" and bonhomie and sweet-talk a bit useless, doesn't it?

And I have my own questions and answers as to what an undercover terrorist wanted with a law enforcement official as opposed to any random, truly uninvolved woman, but they don't have to do with Sonny, so I think I'll put them in another thread. 

Either not a nice guy or not a smart decision to get mixed up with a zealot, Gina, either way.  And if Gina really thought she had a future with this guy after, what, three days?, wouldn't that put her on a Crockett-par with Extremely Hasty Romantic Decisions?  (Although this does further the equation of this episode and "Like A Hurricane".)

Personally I like Conference Room > The End as the visuals and emotion are better in the former, even as the end re-confirms where Gina goes when everything is awful and nothing makes sense.

I'll be terribly disappointed if nobody gets the snark, but it was fun, nonetheless.

[vicegirl85]

7 minutes ago, NeonHumidity said:

He'd was part of a terrorist plot.  Conspiracy, attempted murder, weapons with really bad provenance...  He'd definitely done something, he was on the verge of murdering people, and there were going to be consequences, and they both knew that.  The "Don't make me kill you!" was the truer plea.  At least she never moved out of firing position.

I originally thought Carroon was trying to shoot Sonny when he showed up and Gina was trying to protect Crockett, à la "Heroes of the Revolution" later.

He does do all that, but while watching at a slowed-down speed for screenshots, I realized he's reaching for (and had) his gun before Sonny shows up and before he has any awareness Crockett was there; he was going to kill Gina.  Renders all that "cloud walking" and bonhomie and sweet-talk a bit useless, doesn't it?

And I have my own questions and answers as to what an undercover terrorist wanted with a law enforcement official as opposed to any random, truly uninvolved woman, but they don't have to do with Sonny, so I think I'll put them in another thread. 

Either not a nice guy or not a smart decision to get mixed up with a zealot, Gina, either way.  And if Gina really thought she had a future with this guy after, what, three days?, wouldn't that put her on a Crockett-par with Extremely Hasty Romantic Decisions?  (Although this does further the equation of this episode and "Like A Hurricane".)

(snipped)

Oh, I agree that Sean was fully prepared to shoot Gina, who was the only thing that stood in his way of accomplishing his goal.  Yes, he was part of a terrorist plot.  When she said "You haven't done anything yet," she referred only to the act of shooting down the Concorde.  It's possible that Gina wasn't aware of any other of his actions during this trip to the US.

Why would he get involved with a law enforcement officer?  Hubris.  Plus, he may have thought Gina would provide a good cover for his activities.  No, he wasn't a nice guy and Gina was definitely taken in by his "reformed zealot" persona.  As many have stated with Like a Hurricane, it's possible that the apparently very short timeline may have actually taken place over a longer period of time--but it was definitely very short and points out Gina's tendency to leap before she looks.

 

[NeonHumidity]

Well, imho, unlike Mosca, who was meant as a contrast to Sonny, Carroon was designed as Sonny's nasty echo (or cheap knockoff) (again, even the same initials!!), and from a storytelling pov, her relationship with Sonny was what fueled her feelings there.  So when she had to shoot him, it was a bit like shooting Sonny.

Which may partly explain why she doesn't pull a gun on him in Redemption In Blood.

Anyway, there's more to say about quite a bit, but I'm getting the feeling it's time to do Caitlin after this?  (Or Brenda, first...?  Or should we actually talk about the part of Season 1 when they were happy...?  Not sure.)  Maybe it's time for a poll...  

[NeonHumidity]

"Bought and Paid For" is another good example of "...what's going on here?"

Gina had a date cancel on her (it's also a good scene because she promptly goes from sweet-voiced cajoling nice girl to indignantly insulting him after she hangs up.  Like every other woman and person, Gina's not always sweetness, understanding and light, and the show and Saundra do well to remind us of that).

Trudy then promptly and nonchalantly suggests Crockett as a substitute.

Does Gina protest?  Does she say "I broke up with that jerk?"'  Does she say "We're just friends now?"

"Hey, Sonny.  How would you like some dinner...?" [and she's back to her flirty voice] 

*visibly stops, swallows and takes a second to consider the implications; thank you DJ*

"...Sure."

[promptly goes back to mocking *him* for not being more gracious and enthusiastic]

But so "stay out of my life" has now turned into "let me take you to my apartment and feed you food I've spent hours cooking and none of this has the slightest platonic presentation whatsoever".

And we're never given any reason for Gina's about-face to him after "Nobody Lives Forever".  Did the 'breakup' just get canceled when we weren't looking?

Yes.

...but not when we weren't looking.

In the exact same position and color where he brushed her off and she hit back harder... she now has exactly what he needs.  And he is very, very happy to see her again (and not just for being alive and okay).

Maybe 'canceled out' is more accurate.

In my view, they didn't decide to be "friends with benefits" or "platonic co-workers".  I think Gina was hurt and angry, and said something she meant at the time and Sonny didn't know how to deal with... and eventually she stopped being angry and didn't mean it anymore (much like after the wrong name debacle). 

So I think they just kept going with their former non-exclusive romantic relationship, with detours when one or the other of them seems to find someone else (or tries to or actually gets married, thanks Sonny).

Trying to understand why they're still so tangled up is easier when considering they might never have really tried to let go.