Episode #8 "The Great McCarthy"

[RedDragon86]

Gifford was one of those guys on the bad side of things I really felt sorry for when he died.

He didn't deserve to go that way.

 

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said:

Gifford was one of those guys on the bad side of things I really felt sorry for when he died.

He didn't deserve to go that way.

 

I agree...as attractive or seductive as she might have been, Vanessa was the true “villain” (along with McCarthy, of course). 

[Christine]

Vanessa was a very cool, calculating person who used her body when she thought she could get an advantage for herself. I don't like people like her anyway.
In the end, it even seemed to me that she believed Tubbs wouldn't arrest her because he was in love with her. At least that's my interpretation, because when he's at her door with her gun in his hand and tells her he has to arrest her, he reaffirms it and says, "I HAVE to."

 

[ViceFanMan]

25 minutes ago, Christine said:

Vanessa was a very cool, calculating person who used her body when she thought she could get an advantage for herself. I don't like people like her anyway.
In the end, it even seemed to me that she believed Tubbs wouldn't arrest her because he was in love with her. At least that's my interpretation, because when he's at her door with her gun in his hand and tells her he has to arrest her, he reaffirms it and says, "I HAVE to."

 

Yes, she was used to being able to seduce men and get them to do whatever she wanted...or have them not do what she didn’t want to happen. But, ultimately Tubbs couldn’t go along with her anymore once he found out she was a murderer. 

[Dadrian]

Vanessa and Callie had a lot in common 

[ViceFanMan]

28 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

Vanessa and Callie had a lot in common 

True...but I think Vanessa was just selfish and obviously dysfunctional. However, I think she did care for & was truly attracted to Tubbs. She was capable of feelings. Whereas I think Callie was an actual sociopath. She pretended to be loving and attracted to men...but got-off destroying & eventually killing them (or had them killed). She had no conscience and wasn’t truly capable of feelings or emotions. Both were toxic...but Callie was more deadly.

[Dadrian]

13 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

She had no conscience and wasn’t truly capable of feelings or emotions.

“You don’t even know how to saayy goodbyyyyeeee…”  

[jpaul1]

i don't see Vanessa as a sociopath myself. I see her like many of these 80s miamiers who found the golden egg chicken with cocaine. she was just living the high life, and eventually felt in love for Tubbs. She certainly did wrong when she killed a man. but i think it was much an instinct reaction of a person scared of going to jail. They probably discussed of the situation getting hot, and things derailed. She maybe got scared that he could speak to save his skin. There's nothing in her behavior that let us think she's a black widow

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, Dadrian said:

“You don’t even know how to saayy goodbyyyyeeee…”  

[ViceFanMan]

56 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

i don't see Vanessa as a sociopath myself. I see her like many of these 80s miamiers who found the golden egg chicken with cocaine. she was just living the high life, and eventually felt in love for Tubbs. She certainly did wrong when she killed a man. but i think it was much an instinct reaction of a person scared of going to jail. They probably discussed of the situation getting hot, and things derailed. She maybe got scared that he could speak to save his skin. There's nothing in her behavior that let us think she's a black widow

No, Vanessa wasn’t a sociopath or “black widow”...Callie in Definitely Miami was.

[Dadrian]

2 hours ago, Dadrian said:

“You don’t even know how to saayy goodbyyyyeeee…”  

 

45 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

Around 4:24

 

[ViceFanMan]

10 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

 

Around 4:24

 

Gotcha, lol! 

[Dadrian]

1 hour ago, ViceFanMan said:

Gotcha, lol! 

Sorry. I forget that not everyone thinks about Miami Vice music all day.  

[RedDragon86]

4 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

True...but I think Vanessa was just selfish and obviously dysfunctional. However, I think she did care for & was truly attracted to Tubbs. She was capable of feelings. Whereas I think Callie was an actual sociopath. She pretended to be loving and attracted to men...but got-off destroying & eventually killing them (or had them killed). She had no conscience and wasn’t truly capable of feelings or emotions. Both were toxic...but Callie was more deadly.

It would be fascinating to know what sort of childhood Callie had.

[Dadrian]

2 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

It would be fascinating to know what sort of childhood Callie had.

I think I knew a few Callie’s in school. I even dated one.  

[ViceFanMan]

4 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

I think I knew a few Callie’s in school. I even dated one.  

At least she didn’t have you shot and buried in your car in an abandoned quarry! 

[ViceFanMan]

8 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

It would be fascinating to know what sort of childhood Callie had.

My own psychoanalysis tends to think probably very abusive...physically, or sexually, or psychologically, or all 3. But, with true sociopaths it’s hard to know? With no conscience, no sense of right or wrong, no feelings or emotions—towards others & sometimes not even really towards themselves (although for a while self-survival might be a way of operating)...they’re scary to me! 

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, Dadrian said:

Sorry. I forget that not everyone thinks about Miami Vice music all day.  

Maybe not all day...but a lot of the time! 

[jpaul1]

19 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

My own psychoanalysis tends to think probably very abusive...physically, or sexually, or psychologically, or all 3. But, with true sociopaths it’s hard to know? With no conscience, no sense of right or wrong, no feelings or emotions—towards others & sometimes not even really towards themselves (although for a while self-survival might be a way of operating)...they’re scary to me! 

i don't see her as an abused kid, but more as an under influence person. To accept to be punched in the face, where you know it can be fatal, you gotta be under influence IMO

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, jpaul1 said:

i don't see her as an abused kid, but more as an under influence person. To accept to be punched in the face, where you know it can be fatal, you gotta be under influence IMO

Sadly abused people don’t have to be under the influence of something to allow themselves to be used as a “punching bag”. In this bizarre case, I see Charlie as being under the “influence” of Callie...she was the sociopathic mastermind calling the shots. The beating Charlie gave her (at her request) was no where near fatal. It was purposely just enough to give her facial bruises to keep Crockett on the proverbial hook.

She seemed used to abuse, and had no trouble using forms of it to get her way & play out her sick/twisted fantasy of setting men up to be killed..and they were none the wiser until it was too late. This tends to make me think she was probably abused by most of the men in her childhood and/or life. 

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

37 minutes ago, ViceFanMan said:

My own psychoanalysis tends to think probably very abusive...physically, or sexually, or psychologically, or all 3. But, with true sociopaths it’s hard to know? With no conscience, no sense of right or wrong, no feelings or emotions—towards others & sometimes not even really towards themselves (although for a while self-survival might be a way of operating)...they’re scary to me! 

To me, Callie was pretty empty inside, there was nothing there in her (illustrated in an excellent way, I think, by the imagery and dialogue expressed in the "Cry" sequence), but did I feel a little sorry for her? Yeah, I did, since I don't think the way she lived or felt was a lot of fun. Crockett seemed to feel for her too, but he knew something was off. I feel that in real life, if someone tries to go too far for a Callie-type, they could end up with problems that could possibly ruin them.

[jpaul1]

@ VFM: well i don't know if she has been abused of not, but i know that a simple slap can be fatal. and she was pretty damaged. i'm not a psychiatrics, but AFAIK abused persons who become psycopaths get great satisfaction in manipulating other people. i don't see her as a 'puppet master', but more as a poor wretch. she roam hotels searching for men to milk (working as a prostiture). while the man is driving fancing cars, wearing fancy clothes, and collecting the cash. I mean she's doing all the job, making me think she's the manipulated

This being said the other girl, the one in the wedding agency episode which i forgot the name, this one makes me think of an abused person

Edited July 8, 2021 by jpaul1

[jpaul1]

1 minute ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

To me, Callie was pretty empty inside, there was nothing there in her (illustrated in an excellent way, I think, by the imagery and dialogue expressed in the "Cry" sequence), but did I feel a little sorry for her? Yeah, I did, since I don't think the way she lived or felt was a lot of fun. Crockett seemed to feel for her too, but he knew something was off. I feel that in real life, if someone tries to go too far for a Callie-type, they could end up with problems that could possibly ruin them.

it's pretty obvious that if you give in to a person that behave towards you like a cat at first encounter, yeah there's probably eel under rock like we say here. Definitely suspicious

[Eillio Martin Imbasciati]

20 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

I agree...as attractive or seductive as she might have been, Vanessa was the true “villain” (along with McCarthy, of course). 

Of yes, I agree that Vanessa was bad news in bold print. McCarthy had drugs, but I think if one played it cool with him that a working relationship would be a possibility: but Vanessa, to me, was one always grabbing for something and liked to amuse herself by manipulating others. Gifford was definitely collateral damage, but I actually kind of liked him (I feel he wasn't a Vincent DeMarco-type, or a total sell-out weasel either, but a guy caught up in the fix). I think Vanessa needed her butt kicked by Alicia Austin (She's got to!).

[ViceFanMan]

15 minutes ago, Eillio Martin Imbasciati said:

To me, Callie was pretty empty inside, there was nothing there in her (illustrated in an excellent way, I think, by the imagery and dialogue expressed in the "Cry" sequence), but did I feel a little sorry for her? Yeah, I did, since I don't think the way she lived or felt was a lot of fun. Crockett seemed to feel for her too, but he knew something was off. I feel that in real life, if someone tries to go too far for a Callie-type, they could end up with problems that could possibly ruin them.

 

14 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

well i don't know if she has been abused of not, but i know that a simple slap can be fatal. and she was pretty damaged. i'm not a psychiatrics, but AFAIK abused persons who become psycopaths get great satisfaction in manipulating other people. i don't see her as a 'puppet master', but more as a poor wretch. she roam hotels searching for men to milk (working as a prostiture). while the man is driving fancing cars, wearing fancy clothes, and collecting the cash. I mean she's doing all the job, making me think she's the manipulated

This being said the other girl, the one in the wedding agency episode which i forgot the name, this one makes me think of an abused person

I agree she was empty inside...most sociopaths usually are. I feel sorry for her to the extent that she has no real feeling or conscience. But, she seemed to get her “fun” by setting the men up to be killed. She didn’t care about any of them, including Crockett. It was all an act. She even literally turned from Sonny to the arresting officers at the end, without batting an eyelash.

In order to kill someone by slapping them, you have to hit hard enough in the exact right areas. Charlie didn’t do that...he followed her instructions, and only hit her hard enough to cause bruises & black eyes. They were a team...but only while Callie allowed it. She probably would have killed Charlie eventually, too, once she was tired of him. This woman sadly got off on abuse, and killing men, which still tends to make me think she had experienced abuse most of her life.

Edited July 8, 2021 by ViceFanMan