Season 2 - Final Remarks

[Matt5]

9 hours ago, vicegirl85 said:

I tend to agree that style over substance was somewhat of a theme during Season 2, although I enjoyed Tale of the Goat and thought Junk Love (Rosella's ep) was good; French Twist also had its good points for me.  Your highlights were mine as well, but I would also include Back in the World, Bought and Paid For, and Bushido.

Good points vicegirl85 all the episodes you mentioned are very good.

[Vincent Hanna]

I was listening to a podcast with Kevin Smith and Marc Bernadin and the guy was saying it's hard to produce consistent quality stuff in a 24 episodes season(in the old days of TV). On average they'd usually make 8 great episodes, 8 good/decent and 8 bad ones, So I think Season 2 is the archetype of that kind of reasoning. The good stuff is tremendous and the lowest point is tale of the goat levels of awful.

[Dadrian]

Some of those “awful” episodes are some of our favorites. 

[Matt5]

1 hour ago, Dadrian said:

Some of those “awful” episodes are some of our favorites. 

Definately I concur 

[Vincent Hanna]

sorry guys 

[SwissTubbs]

Am 4.6.2018 um 12:27 schrieb Vincent Hanna:

I was listening to a podcast with Kevin Smith and Marc Bernadin and the guy was saying it's hard to produce consistent quality stuff in a 24 episodes season(in the old days of TV). On average they'd usually make 8 great episodes, 8 good/decent and 8 bad ones, So I think Season 2 is the archetype of that kind of reasoning. The good stuff is tremendous and the lowest point is tale of the goat levels of awful.

Thats interesting.
Its really a perfect fit for Season 2.
And the Good Episodes are really INSANE good in Season 2.

[summer84]

Finished watching episodes of S2 with the ratings in mind. I placed the episodes in three category's, as I found it easier, than giving each one an individual score.

It was interesting, when I watched the show this time around, how my view changed. Some episodes, which I remember disliking like "One Way Ticket" or found mediocre like "Whatever Works" were quite enjoyable now and I had to give em' a high score meaning placing them in the top of the list. A few of the popular ones, I unfortunately found boring/unexciting and would have placed them in the bottom, but because I wanted to give a fair review to the story, I placed one of them in the mid.

I haven't much to add about the season 2 overall, except what's already been said and I agree that S2 was more style over substance, no wonder the critics also said back then. There were much more focus on the visual stuff in the camera and filling out episodes with long music montages that didn't add much to the storyline. I do wish there had been more deeper dialogue and background story on some of the characters. In some cases it was too thin. There were also a couple of episodes, where I thought, that doesn't make sense or bothered me. Aside from a few episodes like "Out Where The Buses Don't Run" and "The Prodigal Son," and maybe some others, there in my opinion wasn't much fashion that stood out to me, nor was cool. The real classic Vice fashion style is really most in Season 1. 

And so this is my rating

Top episodes of Season 2:

Out Where the Buses Don't Run - an ex cop with a mental breakdown down gone nuts, humor, simply great acting by Bruce and another moving ending.                     

Bought and Paid for - very emotional, Saundra gave an excellent strong performance gotta give her credit for that and because of Sonny and Gina 

Definitely Miami - cause it has some great scenery and music and scenes, but I don't like the romance between Crockett and Callie, not my personal favorite episode, has interesting sideplot.

Phil the Shill - was enjoyable, relaxed atmosphere with humor, when Izzy says, "makes you feel like your in Florida," and Phil replies, "but we are in Florida Iz."       

Sons and Lovers - tragic and emotional ending, a great storyline that kept my interest.                                                                                                                                         

Whatever Works - I found the storyline exciting this time, which was mainly about the cop killer and corrupt cops, so the Santeria stuff didn't bother me here.          

One Way Ticket - an episode that kept my interest also because of the music that adds to the mood and emotions. They should have used that more in other episodes. Also the scene with Switek and Trudy following Phillipe Sagot and their talk was really enjoyable and one of my favorite scenes in the episode.  

 

Mid episodes of Season 2:

Little Miss Dangerous - I wish, there had been more background on Jackie, deeper dialogue. Had a thrilling and sad ending. Tubbs and Jackie's friendship/conflict. 

Yankee Dollar - first half was interesting, tragic and moving with Sara dying by a drug overdose, second half a bit boring and last part interesting again.                       

Buddies - has good moments and music, I somehow felt that Remar's acting was better in Sex and The City.                                                                                          

French Twist - interesting episode of an outsider being a terrorist helping the Vice team with a case. Enjoyed the romance and tension between Crockett and Danielle, too bad she turned out to be a criminal. Interesting she took the first move with Crockett and he let her do it just like that. Didn't like the accent though. Poor Elvis, seems he hurt himself banging into the pole on Crockett's boat. That distracted me at first from enjoying the episode.                                               

The Prodigal Son - being a grand season opener, thought it would be fair to place it here. One of my favorite parts Crockett and Tubbs running on the streets of New York from the bad guys with Jan Hammer music playing and that scene with whom everyone refers to as Mr. Burns.                                                                    

PayBack - didn't find the episode exciting, it was slow-paced and a bit boring. Some good moments/scenes though. Because of the long and complex storyline, I placed it here. 

 

And finally...

Episodes in the bottom of Season 2:

The Dutch Oven - weak storyline/plot and lacked stronger emotions, tension. Too bad as it was the first episode centered around Trudy, but there are still some great/enjoyable moments in it. 

Tale of the Goat - had some good moments, but I wasn't interested in the voodoo stuff and couldn't take it seriously even though it was taken from real life.               

Junk Love - didn't like the characters that much, nor the theme.                                                                                                                                                                                 

Florence Italy - it's a watchable episode, but it's filled with a lot of long car racing images and visually images, when they try to find the girl, that was killed. I think, that there could have been more backstory on the hooker girl Florence, other than how old she was, since the title of the episode is her, although they are trying to find her murderer. The intro was good and fun. The ending was disappointing and a bit shocking at the same time, when the killer crashes into the wall surrounded by the police. Less suspenseful to watch, since I know, who the killer is.

Bushido - the episode is okay in some scenes, but was slow and wasn't really that interesting for me. I just couldn't get into it. The end scene was suspenseful though and fitting music.                                                                

The Fix - bad acting by yet another two sport stars who aren't real actors, it's a watchable episode, the acting by judge Ferguson can be annoying sometimes. Sad ending, when he shoots himself, but also cowardly done. The episode grows on you, the story isn't bad, but could have been made stronger and with better acting.  

Free Verse - cause it's not a Vice case babysitting a poet, who is also a bit annoying, it has some moments, that drag you in and the episode is watchable.                 

Stone's war - fast paced story, not an interesting plot, maybe a bit confusing at the second half. Typically ending with one of the bad guys the sergeant getting away. Didn't grab me that much. Not something, I feel like watching again.                                                                                                                                                           

Trust fund Pirates - cause I didn't find the story interesting about these rich criminal young people and their meaningless behavior. Second half became a bit more suspenseful. Not an exciting story. Not an episode, I would find interesting to watch again. Was slow paced and need to be more interesting. Found it boring. 

Had to add that not all of the top episodes are my personal favorite. 

Also the best episodes of Vice have a mix of seriousness and humor and emotions in general, which makes it more realistic. That's classic Vice to me.  

Edited June 13, 2018 by summer84

[Matt5]

11 hours ago, summer84 said:

Finished watching episodes of S2 with the ratings in mind. I placed the episodes in three category's, as I found it easier, than giving each one an individual score.

It was interesting, when I watched the show this time around, how my view changed. Some episodes, which I remember disliking like "One Way Ticket" or found mediocre like "Whatever Works" were quite enjoyable now and I had to give em' a high score meaning placing them in the top of the list. A few of the popular ones, I unfortunately found boring/unexciting and would have placed them in the bottom, but because I wanted to give a fair review to the story, I placed one of them in the mid.

I haven't much to add about the season 2 overall, except what's already been said and I agree that S2 was more style over substance, no wonder the critics also said back then. There were much more focus on the visual stuff in the camera and filling out episodes with long music montages that didn't add much to the storyline. I do wish there had been more deeper dialogue and background story on some of the characters. In some cases it was too thin. There were also a couple of episodes, where I thought, that doesn't make sense or bothered me. Aside from a few episodes like "Out Where The Buses Don't Run" and "The Prodigal Son," and maybe some others, there in my opinion wasn't much fashion that stood out to me, nor was cool. The real classic Vice fashion style is really most in Season 1. 

And so this is my rating

Top episodes of Season 2:

Out Where the Buses Don't Run - an ex cop with a mental breakdown down gone nuts, humor, simply great acting by Bruce and another moving ending.                     

Bought and Paid for - very emotional, Saundra gave an excellent strong performance gotta give her credit for that and because of Sonny and Gina 

Definitely Miami - cause it has some great scenery and music and scenes, but I don't like the romance between Crockett and Callie, not my personal favorite episode, has interesting sideplot.

Phil the Shill - was enjoyable, relaxed atmosphere with humor, when Izzy says, "makes you feel like your in Florida," and Phil replies, "but we are in Florida Iz."       

Sons and Lovers - tragic and emotional ending, a great storyline that kept my interest.                                                                                                                                         

Whatever Works - I found the storyline exciting this time, which was mainly about the cop killer and corrupt cops, so the Santeria stuff didn't bother me here.          

One Way Ticket - an episode that kept my interest also because of the music that adds to the mood and emotions. They should have used that more in other episodes. Also the scene with Switek and Trudy following Phillipe Sagot and their talk was really enjoyable and one of my favorite scenes in the episode.  

 

Mid episodes of Season 2:

Little Miss Dangerous - I wish, there had been more background on Jackie, deeper dialogue. Had a thrilling and sad ending. Tubbs and Jackie's friendship/conflict. 

Yankee Dollar - first half was interesting, tragic and moving with Sara dying by a drug overdose, second half a bit boring and last part interesting again.                       

Buddies - has good moments and music, I somehow felt that Remar's acting was better in Sex and The City.                                                                                          

French Twist - interesting episode of an outsider being a terrorist helping the Vice team with a case. Enjoyed the romance and tension between Crockett and Danielle, too bad she turned out to be a criminal. Interesting she took the first move with Crockett and he let her do it just like that. Didn't like the accent though. Poor Elvis, seems he hurt himself banging into the pole on Crockett's boat. That distracted me at first from enjoying the episode.                                               

The Prodigal Son - being a grand season opener, thought it would be fair to place it here. One of my favorite parts Crockett and Tubbs running on the streets of New York from the bad guys with Jan Hammer music playing and that scene with whom everyone refers to as Mr. Burns.                                                                    

PayBack - didn't find the episode exciting, it was slow-paced and a bit boring. Some good moments/scenes though. Because of the long and complex storyline, I placed it here. 

 

And finally...

Episodes in the bottom of Season 2:

The Dutch Oven - weak storyline/plot and lacked stronger emotions, tension. Too bad as it was the first episode centered around Trudy, but there are still some great/enjoyable moments in it. 

Tale of the Goat - had some good moments, but I wasn't interested in the voodoo stuff and couldn't take it seriously even though it was taken from real life.               

Junk Love - didn't like the characters that much, nor the theme.                                                                                                                                                                                 

Florence Italy - it's a watchable episode, but it's filled with a lot of long car racing images and visually images, when they try to find the girl, that was killed. I think, that there could have been more backstory on the hooker girl Florence, other than how old she was, since the title of the episode is her, although they are trying to find her murderer. The intro was good and fun. The ending was disappointing and a bit shocking at the same time, when the killer crashes into the wall surrounded by the police. Less suspenseful to watch, since I know, who the killer is.

Bushido - the episode is okay in some scenes, but was slow and wasn't really that interesting for me. I just couldn't get into it. The end scene was suspenseful though and fitting music.                                                                

The Fix - bad acting by yet another two sport stars who aren't real actors, it's a watchable episode, the acting by judge Ferguson can be annoying sometimes. Sad ending, when he shoots himself, but also cowardly done. The episode grows on you, the story isn't bad, but could have been made stronger and with better acting.  

Free Verse - cause it's not a Vice case babysitting a poet, who is also a bit annoying, it has some moments, that drag you in and the episode is watchable.                 

Stone's war - fast paced story, not an interesting plot, maybe a bit confusing at the second half. Typically ending with one of the bad guys the sergeant getting away. Didn't grab me that much. Not something, I feel like watching again.                                                                                                                                                           

Trust fund Pirates - cause I didn't find the story interesting about these rich criminal young people and their meaningless behavior. Second half became a bit more suspenseful. Not an exciting story. Not an episode, I would find interesting to watch again. Was slow paced and need to be more interesting. Found it boring. 

Had to add that not all of the top episodes are my personal favorite. 

Also the best episodes of Vice have a mix of seriousness and humor and emotions in general, which makes it more realistic. That's classic Vice to me.  

Wow Summer- such a detailed and comprehensive look at your review of Season 2. 

Of course your opinion of Season 2 episodes are you own but Thankyou for sharing - I enjoyed reading it.

[summer84]

2 hours ago, Matt5 said:

Wow Summer- such a detailed and comprehensive look at your review of Season 2. 

Of course your opinion of Season 2 episodes are you own but Thankyou for sharing - I enjoyed reading it.

Thanks! Glad you could read through it all, I know it was a very long post. 

Edited June 13, 2018 by summer84

[Matt5]

9 minutes ago, summer84 said:

Thanks! Glad you could read through it all, I know it was a very long post. 

It was very detailed - some points I agree with, some I don’t - but it’s all about opinion!  Thankyou 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Matt5

[summer84]

1 minute ago, Matt5 said:

It was very detailed - some points I agree with, some I don’t - but it’s all about opinion!  Thankyou 

Yes a lot is personal opinion, but there are also many shared/equal views on many episodes. And then some are divided. It's always great for me to learn what others think about the episodes. 

[Matt5]

1 minute ago, summer84 said:

Yes a lot is personal opinion, but there are also many shared/equal views on many episodes. And then some are divided. It's always great for me to learn what others think about the episodes. 

I will have a think and post a review, perhaps not as long, soon. A lot of those episodes in Season 2 are very special.

[summer84]

Just now, Matt5 said:

I will have a think and post a review, perhaps not as long, soon. A lot of those episodes in Season 2 are very special.

Would be great to read! 

[Matt5]

19 minutes ago, summer84 said:

Would be great to read! 

Thankyou !

[mirrorimageegamirorrim]

On 6/12/2018 at 5:11 PM, summer84 said:

Aside from a few episodes like "Out Where The Buses Don't Run" and "The Prodigal Son," and maybe some others, there in my opinion wasn't much fashion that stood out to me, nor was cool. The real classic Vice fashion style is really most in Season 1.

Thank you for your detailed review!  I know this took a long time and I appreciate the work you put into it.  Anytime season 2 is discussed my ears perk up since it is my favorite season. 

Most of the bones you had to pick with S2 I had heard before, save the one I quoted above.  This actually surprised me a lot since the fashion is pretty much the same, at least for Crockett and Tubbs, in the first two seasons.  Were you thinking of the ladies perhaps?  

And I must comment on the "problem" that you hear most often with season 2: style over substance.  I'm pretty sure we would all agree that Vice never suffers from a lack of style at any point in seasons 1 and 2.  At least that's my contention.  So really what we're dealing with is a perceived lack of substance, and this is where I diverge from many of my Vice brothers and sisters.  Regarding episodes that exemplify substance, some might point to the pilot, Smuggler's Blues and Evan (and I would agree!) while I would point to Buses, Bushido and Sons & Lovers as being every bit their equal.  As far as a lack of substance, some might point to Tale of the Goat, Florence, Italy and The Fix (and I see where they're coming from) while I would point to Glades, The Maze and Made for Each Other as not being as substantive as the majority of season 1.  While you may or may not agree with my examples, my only point is the whole "style over substance" complaint could be equally applied to either season.  I think seasons 1 and 2 are pure genius, Vice at its best.  Michael Mann once said they're the only two seasons worth watching.  I wouldn't go that far, but I think they are the gold standard.             

Edited June 14, 2018 by mirrorimageegamirorrim

[summer84]

15 hours ago, mirrorimageegamirorrim said:

Thank you for your detailed review!  I know this took a long time and I appreciate the work you put into it.  Anytime season 2 is discussed my ears perk up since it is my favorite season. 

Most of the bones you had to pick with S2 I had heard before, save the one I quoted above.  This actually surprised me a lot since the fashion is pretty much the same, at least for Crockett and Tubbs, in the first two seasons.  Were you thinking of the ladies perhaps?  

And I must comment on the "problem" that you hear most often with season 2: style over substance.  I'm pretty sure we would all agree that Vice never suffers from a lack of style at any point in seasons 1 and 2.  At least that's my contention.  So really what we're dealing with is a perceived lack of substance, and this is where I diverge from many of my Vice brothers and sisters.  Regarding episodes that exemplify substance, some might point to the pilot, Smuggler's Blues and Evan (and I would agree!) while I would point to Buses, Bushido and Sons & Lovers as being every bit their equal.  As far as a lack of substance, some might point to Tale of the Goat, Florence, Italy and The Fix (and I see where they're coming from) while I would point to Glades, The Maze and Made for Each Other as not being as substantive as the majority of season 1.  While you may or may not agree with my examples, my only point is the whole "style over substance" complaint could be equally applied to either season.  I think seasons 1 and 2 are pure genius, Vice at its best.  Michael Mann once said they're the only two seasons worth watching.  I wouldn't go that far, but I think they are the gold standard.             

Thank you very much!

Regarding the fashion: the show had a new costume designer in Season 2 and she did keep the iconic style from the first season with only minor changes, if you could call it that. There were a couple of new styles of shirts thrown in, that weren't as cool looking on Crockett and some t-shirts that looked they were a size too big, I felt that couldn't measure up with the classic henley's and simple shirts and tank tops. Although two of my favorite shirts are in this season.  

I agree with your point on "style over substance" comparison with Season 1 and the episodes you mentioned. But I think, the problem is that Season 2 had a lot more style that overshadowed the substance that should have been in the stories. But it's also that there were bad acting by people, who weren't actors and weak/unexciting story lines and themes. There are still some fantastic episodes in S2. "Bought and Paid for" for instance had a great balance between style and substance. I think it becomes a problem, when the one begins to prevail over the other. 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by summer84

[mirrorimageegamirorrim]

3 hours ago, summer84 said:

Thank you very much!

Regarding the fashion: the show had a new costume designer in Season 2 and she did keep the iconic style from the first season with only minor changes, if you could call it that. There were a couple of new styles of shirts thrown in, that weren't as cool looking on Crockett and some t-shirts that looked they were a size too big, I felt that couldn't measure up with the classic henley's and simple shirts and tank tops. Although two of my favorite shirts are in this season.  

I agree with your point on "style over substance" comparison with Season 1 and the episodes you mentioned. But I think, the problem is that Season 2 had a lot more style that overshadowed the substance that should have been in the stories. But it's also that there were bad acting by people, who weren't actors and weak/unexciting story lines and themes. There are still some fantastic episodes in S2. "Bought and Paid for" for instance had a great balance between style and substance. I think it becomes a problem, when the one begins to prevail over the other.

I'm embarrassed to admit I did not know there was a new costume designer in S2.  I thought it was Jodie Tillen the whole time.  Regardless, the fashion was spectacular in both seasons.  I do agree with you about the style of some of Crockett's shirts in season 2.  The one that always comes to mind for me is the blue button-down he wore in "Buses".  I do not like that shirt.  I think there are other examples too of Crockett deviating from the henley in S2 but I can't remember what they are.  Maybe in "French Twist"?  Can't say that I ever noticed a difference in the size of the henleys.  What are some examples?

However, even in season one, early on in particular, there were some sartorial selections that left me scratching my head.  Crockett's look at the end of "Give a Little" was totally out of character.  Also, the bright green t shirt/ black blazer combo in "McCarthy" was a train wreck.  Black in general is just antithetical to Vice fashion.  There are other instances from season 1 I've noticed that I can't recall right now.

I think the S2 episodes most worthy of criticism for a style/substance imbalance are Florence, Italy and The Fix, with Florence, Italy being far more egregious.  The Fix is actually very well written start to finish but it was hamstrung by some guest actors who could not act.  That is its only issue.  Just imagine it with different actors.  Florence, Italy on the other hand, suffered from both incompetent guest actors and a story that was not fleshed out enough.  The actual story had nice potential and the non-racing scenes are just as good as anything else from season 2.  There's just too much filler.  

In my view, all the other usual episodes that tend to get picked on for style/substance are actually not lacking in substance at all.  There is something different going on at times in many season 2 episodes like Dutch Oven, Buddies, Junk Love, Tale of the Goat and others too, but it has to do with an emphasis on creating a mood.  To fully enjoy episodes of this flavor the viewer must find the characters empathetic and must find the set designs and atmosphere that is created deeply immersive.  If the viewer finds this difficult they will probably not enjoy these as much as episodes like Sons and Lovers and Phil the Shill.  Overall, the writing of season 2 is the best of the series and its episodes have the highest ceiling for enjoyment.  The style of storytelling is just different at times.                                   

[summer84]

7 hours ago, mirrorimageegamirorrim said:

I'm embarrassed to admit I did not know there was a new costume designer in S2.  I thought it was Jodie Tillen the whole time.  Regardless, the fashion was spectacular in both seasons.  I do agree with you about the style of some of Crockett's shirts in season 2.  The one that always comes to mind for me is the blue button-down he wore in "Buses".  I do not like that shirt.  I think there are other examples too of Crockett deviating from the henley in S2 but I can't remember what they are.  Maybe in "French Twist"?  Can't say that I ever noticed a difference in the size of the henleys.  What are some examples?

However, even in season one, early on in particular, there were some sartorial selections that left me scratching my head.  Crockett's look at the end of "Give a Little" was totally out of character.  Also, the bright green t shirt/ black blazer combo in "McCarthy" was a train wreck.  Black in general is just antithetical to Vice fashion.  There are other instances from season 1 I've noticed that I can't recall right now.

I think the S2 episodes most worthy of criticism for a style/substance imbalance are Florence, Italy and The Fix, with Florence, Italy being far more egregious.  The Fix is actually very well written start to finish but it was hamstrung by some guest actors who could not act.  That is its only issue.  Just imagine it with different actors.  Florence, Italy on the other hand, suffered from both incompetent guest actors and a story that was not fleshed out enough.  The actual story had nice potential and the non-racing scenes are just as good as anything else from season 2.  There's just too much filler.  

In my view, all the other usual episodes that tend to get picked on for style/substance are actually not lacking in substance at all.  There is something different going on at times in many season 2 episodes like Dutch Oven, Buddies, Junk Love, Tale of the Goat and others too, but it has to do with an emphasis on creating a mood.  To fully enjoy episodes of this flavor the viewer must find the characters empathetic and must find the set designs and atmosphere that is created deeply immersive.  If the viewer finds this difficult they will probably not enjoy these as much as episodes like Sons and Lovers and Phil the Shill.  Overall, the writing of season 2 is the best of the series and its episodes have the highest ceiling for enjoyment.  The style of storytelling is just different at times.                                   

No need to feel embarrassed, I just learned some while ago, that Robert Ward was the co-executive producer on the fifth season. Yes Bambi Breakstone was the new costume designer in S2 and then they had two others for S3. Funny you mention the blue button down shirt from "Buses," I love that one! I thought Don looked really hot in it. It's one of the two favorites, I was referring to. 

Here are some examples of the different type of designed shirts/upper body clothing, that I wasn't so found of in S2, The T-shirt in the first pic to me looks larger and looser fitting with longer cut sleeves. I took these from the glossary. Yes I agree both seasons had some unfortunate clothing and color combinations. Which they were constantly experimenting with. I believe they had an orange theme going on in "Cool Runnin" both for the main star and the whole background. Not sure what you disliked about the look in the end scene of "Give a Little."

    

When judging the episodes, I want to point out both the strong and weak aspects of it in the larger picture, as it seems most fair and gives some constructive criticism that way. Yes the two sport stars in "The Fix" brought the episode to a lower quality, but I also thought there was a lack of tension and action overall and also energy from the main stars after the intro sequence. There was also unnecessary footage filling out the scene of the basketball match, that lasted too long. Which "Florence Italy" had a lot of, as you also observed. Episodes I placed for the mid score are actually all enjoyable, interesting and entertaining, but do have their flaws, where the storyline isn't consistently on a high level throughout the episode. "Dutch Oven" for instance has some enjoyable moments, but had a weak plot about busting one drug dealer and then the story ends. There wasn't much interesting/suspenseful going on with the dealer. Of course it also deals with Trudy's dilemma about acting right and wrong as a cop. And is also another episode that has too much music filling out a scene at the party and in the club. Where you think to yourself, when does the story start. Some story lines didn't lack substance, but the way they were executed felt slow paced and boring and not interesting enough to grab your attention. And I wish, that some episodes had deeper dialogue and more background story to it. I guess we all have different views on how good each episode is, but there are still some that stand out, where many of us think the same way about it. 

Edited June 16, 2018 by summer84

[mirrorimageegamirorrim]

16 hours ago, summer84 said:

No need to feel embarrassed, I just learned some while ago, that Robert Ward was the co-executive producer on the fifth season. Yes Bambi Breakstone was the new costume designer in S2 and then they had two others for S3. Funny you mention the blue button down shirt from "Buses," I love that one! I thought Don looked really hot in it. It's one of the two favorites, I was referring to. 

Here are some examples of the different type of designed shirts/upper body clothing, that I wasn't so found of in S2, The T-shirt in the first pic to me looks larger and looser fitting with longer cut sleeves. I took these from the glossary. Yes I agree both seasons had some unfortunate clothing and color combinations. Which they were constantly experimenting with. I believe they had an orange theme going on in "Cool Runnin" both for the main star and the whole background. Not sure what you disliked about the look in the end scene of "Give a Little."

    

When judging the episodes, I want to point out both the strong and weak aspects of it in the larger picture, as it seems most fair and gives some constructive criticism that way. Yes the two sport stars in "The Fix" brought the episode to a lower quality, but I also thought there was a lack of tension and action overall and also energy from the main stars after the intro sequence. There was also unnecessary footage filling out the scene of the basketball match, that lasted too long. Which "Florence Italy" had a lot of, as you also observed. Episodes I placed for the mid score are actually all enjoyable, interesting and entertaining, but do have their flaws, where the storyline isn't consistently on a high level throughout the episode. "Dutch Oven" for instance has some enjoyable moments, but had a weak plot about busting one drug dealer and then the story ends. There wasn't much interesting/suspenseful going on with the dealer. Of course it also deals with Trudy's dilemma about acting right and wrong as a cop. And is also another episode that has too much music filling out a scene at the party and in the club. Where you think to yourself, when does the story start. Some story lines didn't lack substance, but the way they were executed felt slow paced and boring and not interesting enough to grab your attention. And I wish, that some episodes had deeper dialogue and more background story to it. I guess we all have different views on how good each episode is, but there are still some that stand out, where many of us think the same way about it. 

Oh no!  No disrespect intended with the shirt there!  Thanks for posting the pics; they really help!  I like the first shirt, though you're right in that it is a tad loose.  I do not like the other two.  Less is more and and you can't beat the look of the basic henley.  I'll check the final scene from Give a Little to make sure I'm telling you the right episode.

Thanks for another detailed explanation!  I really enjoy hearing perspectives that diverge from mine because it gives me a deeper understanding of the show.  It makes one think more deeply about one's own ideas when having to explain/defend them.  I've never felt The Fix suffered from filler like Florence, Italy did, though I see where you're coming from.  The b-ball game never felt gratuitous to me like the racing did from Florence.  It kinna flowed.  Same with the party boat scene from Dutch Oven.  The singer, in particular, was interesting.  But, without him the scene would have languished a bit.  As far as the rest I guess it's just a matter of taste.  It sounds like we just have different requirements for what makes a good episode.           

  

Edited June 16, 2018 by mirrorimageegamirorrim

[summer84]

22 hours ago, mirrorimageegamirorrim said:

Oh no!  No disrespect intended with the shirt there!  Thanks for posting the pics; they really help!  I like the first shirt, though you're right in that it is a tad loose.  I do not like the other two.  Less is more and and you can't beat the look of the basic henley.  I'll check the final scene from Give a Little to make sure I'm telling you the right episode.

Thanks for another detailed explanation!  I really enjoy hearing perspectives that diverge from mine because it gives me a deeper understanding of the show.  It makes one think more deeply about one's own ideas when having to explain/defend them.  I've never felt The Fix suffered from filler like Florence, Italy did, though I see where you're coming from.  The b-ball game never felt gratuitous to me like the racing did from Florence.  It kinna flowed.  Same with the party boat scene from Dutch Oven.  The singer, in particular, was interesting.  But, without him the scene would have languished a bit.  As far as the rest I guess it's just a matter of taste.  It sounds like we just have different requirements for what makes a good episode.           

  

Glad I could help! Thank you for sharing your perspective on the episodes too! It was interesting to read and hear your point of view as well. I just felt, that not all of the episodes were equally as good as some others were. But I also see your point about that some of them required empathy for the characters and a certain taste, that if you don't have that, it can ruin your experience with an episode. Many of us still share equal/similar thoughts on many episodes, which shows that some episodes were better in quality compared to others. 

Edited June 17, 2018 by summer84

[TylerDurden389]

I actually like Don's style in the 3rd pic (powder blue blazer, white henley.....light pink pants? Not sure if they're off-white or what, lol).

[Rattlehead]

Is it me or does the season dip in qualiy towards the end then picks up for the last couple of episodes? I skipped The Fix to be honest, seemed incredibly boring to me and I don't care for sports...then again I do like Killshot and Down for the Count.

[Bren10]

It seems that Season 2 has become somewhat polarizing the more people analyze it in hinsight.  Before, I mostly knew people who championed it as the greatest season.  That's changed a little now.  I was also surprised to see that Rolling Stone article and what it said.

 

There are definitely peaks and valleys in S2.  But S2 has the best bookends with its season opener and closer.  That wouldn't happen again in the series imo.  If S1 had closed with Evan, I may feel differently about this, but it didn't.  I also feel S2 is the point where the series is most sure of itself.  It knows what it is and what it's trying to do at this point.  And all the pieces are in place to move forward, especially with Castillo as the anchor.  I remember the buzz before this season started and the excitement about Vice going to New York.  This period of time really would be the peak of the show culturally, with a minor resurgence with Sheena Easton later.  Personally, I fluctuate between the first 2 seasons as my favorites, followed closely by 3.

[RedDragon86]

Great season packed full of brilliant episodes. I really don't agree that this season is all style and lacks substance, I really don't.

When you watch episodes like Buddies, LMD or Bushido how can you come to this conclusion? what I think has happened in this season is its just more stylish than 1 and the majority of the stories are excellent, the writing is just as good as S1.

The writing in Buddies for example is exceptional. Bushido as well, the story Marty told to Jack's boy was remarkable piece of writing.

Edited July 28, 2019 by RedDragon86

[Detective_Crockett]

A lot of style over substance episodes, but at the same time. Got some classics and some favourite episodes of all time. It's hard to choose a favourite episode, so my favourites are: 

Out Where The Buses Don't Run

Prodigal Son

Back In The World

Payback

Definitely Miami

Bushido

Buddies

Sons & Lovers

Little Miss Dangerous

One Way Ticket.

Florence Italy

 

Alright Season 3 here I come! The rewatching continues.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Detective_Crockett