feeling a little down about S3 right now

[Guest myonlyvice]

A lot of what we deal in around here is only opinion, and this post is no different. Please keep that in mind when reading this.I'm going through season 3 in chronological order for about the fourth time. Individually, I've seen almost all the third season episodes many more times than this however. I've never been struck as hard before by the sudden drop-off in quality from the Michael Mann years to the freshman year of Dick Wolf et al. I mean it's a little ridiculous. The writing, wardrobe, camera work, attention to detail, etc. are all diminished. And I'm aware that Mann might have approved of some of the changes himself. I'm not trying to just praise Mann and diss Wolf. What I am saying is that after season two the changes were many but very few were for the better. They were portrayed as "necessary" to keep the show from becoming "a parody of itself", but I disagree with that. If it were possible, I doubt many people here would have been disappointed to have had three more seasons in the style of the first two. From season three, the only outstanding episodes are "Shadow in the Dark" and "Forgive us our Debts". And these truly are 5-star episodes. They would shine even if they aired during the first two years. But beyond these I just hate how I'm feeling right now. And another thing- Season four is cited by many as the show's weakest season overall. But consider first the season that gave birth to it, that laid the foundation for it. Can you really blame the writers from season four for wanting to distance themselves from much of what season three had to offer? I'm not going to try to defend UFOs, frozen Rastas and bull semen as legitimate themes for a Vice episode against any of your attacks, but after season three it was inevitable that the writers were going to at least attempt to "right the ship" by thinking way, way outside the box. There was no thinking outside the box in season three. There were just many, many substandard, uninspired, get-the-job-done type episodes. In season four you could at least make the argument that they were simply trying too hard. In season three they did not seem to even be trying. I really believe season four and five are superior to season three, and not by a small margin, especially given the obstacles they had to overcome thanks to their predecessor. But, in the end, season three is still Vice, I still love it, and it's still superior to to 90% of what is on the networks today. Don't hate me S3 lovers, just consider my point of view.

[Tommy Vercetti]

I disagree.The camerawork and attention to detail never diminished in all five seasons IMO. Vice beat the hell out of nearly every show before or since in this department.I loved the new look and wardrobe of S3. I thought it was just as stylish as ever. I think it was a necessity to keep the show fresh.The writing disimproved in S3? Are you serious? In S2 you had sh!t storylines like Tale of the Goat, Whatever Works, Florence Italy, French Twist, Trust Fund Pirates, Free Verse. The writing and quality of storylines in S3 was a vast improvement over season 2.There are many superb episodes in S3 such as Down For The Count, Forgive Us Our Debts, Stone's War, Walk-Alone, Theresa, Red Tape, El Viejo, By Hooker By Crook, The Savage. All Vice classics IMO. They didn't seem to be trying? Sorry but that statement defies logic to me. S3 has a lot of substance. It seems to me you have a preference for style which is often prevelant.The wackiness of S4 seemed more like a continuation of the likes of Tale of the Goat from season 2 if you ask me.It's your point of view I don't agree with you one bit. Season 3 is, for the most part, a great season

[Kavinsky]

Yeah I agree with what you said, it felt like the burden of making a good show had gotten to them and they just started to crack.I mean after all miami vice was in the top 10 for the 1985 - 1986 season, they had just been given two real ferraris by enzo himself and I the presure was on to keep the ratings up instead of focusing on moving everyones story forward and doing a good job like they had done in the first two.Although I think the change from pastels to darker colors was a wise move since it made it feel more modern, pitty it didnt stick.and that white ferrari thing, unless the car looks great from every angle you should never paint a car white. Kowalski's Challenger being the great exception. Viking Bikers from Hell in my book is where it broke down in my mind, in no small part to red brown being in the credits.

[maynard]

Maybe it was about the m-o-n-e-y! Usually is...

[Ferrariman]

Sorry but I must also disagree. Season 3 for me showed signs of maturity among the cast. The story lines and darker colors (there were still plenty of pastels) were a nice change for a show that had already proven itself. I know the reasons were for Vice to stay fresh and reinvent itself and I somewhat agree with that. Season 4 for me was ok, most condemn it but it had some great episodes as well. Among my (all time) favorites are "Death & the Lady" and "Love At First Sight" It also has some of the worst IMO. I don't have to name them, you all know which ones they are!We all have our opinions and rest assured we respect yours. That's what this site is all about!

[Papa Legba]

Season 3 was by far the strongest season, particularly in terms of storylines. "Forgive us our debts" for example was brilliantly written. Reinventing the show was in my opinion absolutly necessary, and this was a shrewd decision on Michael Mann's part.As Lou says, the problem with Season 4 was it's inconsitency. You had some (IMHO) brilliant episodes such as "Baseballs of death" and "Death and the lady". Then some total humdingers thrown in as well. They really lost the plot with this season.Personally, Season 2 will always be my favourite. Not least because it was during this season that I first got into Vice.

[Tom]

I also disagree and most of my arguments have already been named by Ferrariman and Tommy Vercetti.IMHO season three has the best writing and consistency of all seasons. Only the last few (Viking bikers and later) jumped the shark in this respect. After all these years, I cannot watch season 2 anymore cos all the scripts are one-liners. In season 3 Dick Wolf managed to bring controversial and political subjects (Baby adoption, Northern Ireland, informants as collateral damage, Nicaragua war, death penalty, synth drugs, etc etc) in without giving up the high technical standards (camerizing, optics, color schemes). I agree with Michael Mann that season 3 had to be different. The substance of season 2 was getting thinner and thinner (Junk Love, French Twist, Florence Italy) and the whitish color scheme was visually getting boring too. He knew that. Because of the WOW-factor, the press hype and the unbelievable guest stars no-one noticed during season 2 how thin it was but season three wouldn´t have worked with the same recipe. Michael Mann was the first to notice and he took action instead of waiting (an attitude I´d like to see with today´s politicians). I remember that Michael once said to a director in season 2: Do what you want, but do not try to make it safely. Take a risk, try something, do not try to be on the safe side.Ironically, the 3rd season was also the basis for the bad slump in season 4 because everybody got used to sophisticated content. They could not maintain the high level of writing and season 4 became similar to season 2 - great whithish optics but less script substance, a few terrific scripts but some real downers.

[Kavinsky]

Theres a few instances in S3 that bring it down in my mind, the overuse of dramatic music at the end of when irish eyes are crying and the coy acting of it with the gina-badguy love triangle, hell I carred more for crockett because of the loss of the Daytona, I was rooting for him to shoot the bastard who blew it up but Castillo got that honorDon's acting when the kid gets it in The Good Collar and once again the music playing in the backgroundand yet again the music at the end of red tape, but besides that episode was great and seemed to be the last of the really good ones in the normal mv style actually I think there was quite a few episodes that used music right at the end that bothered me and they were regular music tracks instead of Jan Hammers score which is what gave evan and shadow in the dark such a distinct feel to it (the great exception being Forgive Us Our Debts with We Do What We're Told being the theme for the entire episode)maybe thats why I didnt care for it as much as S1 and S2.

[agent 47]

I don't think there is a single season in the series that is what you would call "perfect", they all had low points and for me the low points of Season Three is that there were some episodes where the writing felt too overly-melodramatic and the writers trying to push two Crockett romances in one season, but still episodes like Stone's War, El Viejo, Shadow in the Dark, When Irish Eyes Are Crying, Lend Me An Ear and Heroes of the Revolution were some great episodes plus this season had one of the best Castillo scenes ever, it's in When Irish Eyes Are Crying, he's riding a chopper chasing IRA perps, and he's got an Assault Rifle.Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Burnett1292]

I myself cannot understand why a lot of articles I read praise Season 2 as being cutting edge along side Season 1. Like Dick Wolf said in a very good interview which can be seen on YouTube, when you watched a lot of the episodes from Season 2, they were non linear in their storytelling, and a lot of the time you were left there after watching an episode and going "huh?". Even Don Johnson was quoted as saying that there were a few clunkers and that they only had about 7 or 8 good episodes. I think Season 2 tried too hard to outdo itself with the stylization and visuals. The sudden success of the show, I think, caught the powers that be by surprise, and that they took a gamble that it was about the visuals and that they needed to outdo themselves. Season 3 is my favourite. I like the serious, darker tone, and I dpn't think it did anything but enhance the mythology of Vice.

[Kavinsky]

yeah I'd agree with that and thats part of the reason why I prefer season one over S2 a little but its still fun to watch.with S3 the music sometimes made it hard to watch, theres also few really bad stinkers in there like irish eyes and viking and it sometimes seemed a little overdramatic at times like at the end of killshot and the good collar.For me 3 just seemed like the season that bothered me the most out if the bunch that most people consider the real miami vice.

[Matt5]

I disagree.The camerawork and attention to detail never diminished in all five seasons IMO. Vice beat the hell out of nearly every show before or since in this department.I loved the new look and wardrobe of S3. I thought it was just as stylish as ever. I think it was a necessity to keep the show fresh.The writing disimproved in S3? Are you serious? In S2 you had sh!t storylines like Tale of the Goat' date=' Whatever Works, Florence Italy, French Twist, Trust Fund Pirates, Free Verse. The writing and quality of storylines in S3 was a vast improvement over season 2.There are many superb episodes in S3 such as Down For The Count, Forgive Us Our Debts, Stone's War, Walk-Alone, Theresa, Red Tape, El Viejo, By Hooker By Crook, The Savage. All Vice classics IMO. They didn't seem to be trying? Sorry but that statement defies logic to me. S3 has a lot of substance. It seems to me you have a preference for style which is often prevelant.The wackiness of S4 seemed more like a continuation of the likes of Tale of the Goat from season 2 if you ask me.It's your point of view I don't agree with you one bit. Season 3 is, for the most part, a great season[/quote']I must agree that the Cinematography/style and direction of some of those early Season 3 episodes are some of the best of the series and still look fresh Today ( ie Stones War, Shadow in the Dark , El Viego ) - the darker look gave MV a much needed change of look.Michael Mann didnt want the show to become a cariacture of itself and felt it was necessary to change the look of the show. Some of the Season 2 episodes look years older than episodes that were made just months later in Season 3. Some of the wacky storylines of Season 2 , I agree were bought back to Season 4 such as the UFO scenes in "Missing Hours" etc.Season 3 was perhaps more of a mixed bag than Season 2 this was probrably producers changing the show around later in Season 3 due to falling viewer ratings etc. But I think early Season 3 had excellent production values and some of the best work of the entire series . "The Savage" is another excellent episode .

[Guest myonlyvice]

My thanks to all who have replied. I've greatly enjoyed reading what everyone has to say, especially those who disagree. I think something everyone here would agree on is that there is no perfect season of Vice. Each season has its masterpieces and weak spots. I am surprised though at a few things I've read. I don't care for the whole style vs. substance debate. I don't see at any point in the series any evidence of one being favored over the other. Some episodes were better written than others but this applies to all seasons. Season two is frequently cited as being all style and nothing else but, compared to the other four seasons, what's the big difference? Is season two really all that different than any other season? I just don't see it. All seasons have one liners. All seasons have designer clothing, exotic automobiles and fast boats. All seasons have beautiful women. All seasons have great plot twists and great action sequences. All seasons have examples of great, even profound, dialogue and beautiful cinematography. All seasons had their ups and downs. I'm skeptical of anybody who would say otherwise. Season three just seems to be coming up short more than I've thought in the past. Like I said, "Shadow" and "Debts" are fantastic any way you dissect them. They are the crowning jewels of S3. After these, "El Viejo", "Down for the Count 2" and "Duty and Honor" are also great but not masterpieces like the first two. It's a shame "Viejo" wasn't the season premiere because "Irish" is so inferior by comparison. I find it the weakest season premiere of the series hands down. I absolutely loved the Klizer and Kaye characters. They were so cool and fun to watch. And the Daytona getting blown up while Sonny slowly lowers his sunglasses was something I could watch over and over again. Absolutely iconic. (Anybody else notice that weird screaming sound that preceded the explosion just by an instant? What the heck was that?) Unfortunately, the Gina/Caroon story, which was so drab and lacking in character and depth, took precedence. The whole connection of the IRA to Miami is bizarre, too. It doesn't fit very well. I find "Stone's War" not nearly as good as "Back in the World." Maynard is interesting, as always, but this one was just missing something. I loved the finale down in the Keys, in the mangroves and whatnot, from "World". Apart from Jan Hammer, neither of these episodes were shining moments for their respective seasons though, as far as I'm concerned. "Killshot" was pretty weak, not gripping at any point really. "Walk Alone" was OK but had some pretty bad camerawork at times. I've read someone who complained that a "prison" episode had become a requirement for action/police shows of this era and that Miami Vice was simply falling in line with this cliche. I personally don't know if this is accurate or not, but I thought I'd throw it out there. The "Good Collar" was decent. The whole "criminal kid" concept is annoying. The moral dilemma was interesting and Sonny losing control at the end was very powerful. "Better Living" was only average. Some pretty poor stunt work at the end hurts it. Izzy is always fun to watch, though. "Baby Blues" is just not interesting. "Streetwise" was OK but it seems like it was missing something. It should have been better because the premise is interesting. "Cuba Libre" is not compelling. It's pertinent to Miami, I'll give it that, but it just doesn't do a good job of drawing you in. "Theresa" is average for S3. It shows some good acting at times from DJ and some good Hammer music. The desperation of the helicopter dumping its load was cool, too. "Afternoon Plane" was nothing but a great opportunity missed. "Lend Me an Ear" was very funny, a stronger episode for season 3 standards. The plot twist in "Red Tape" was more irritating than enjoyable. It was clever, though. I agree with whoever said that music choice at the end was not well done. It didn't fit well with the scene and I'm not sure about Lou Diamond Philips, either. And, at the beginning, what is up with trying to pass off noontime as being 5 in the morning. That was sloppy and inexcusable. Scenes filmed at dawn, particularly when you get the sky in the frame, look so great on film. Consider the boat scene from "One Eyed Jack" in Season one, for example. What an opportunity wasted this was. "Hooker" was all right, as was "Knock Knock". These two had their moments and the moral dilemma in both was interesting. "Bikers", "Showbiz" and "Heroes" range from weak to bad, depending on one's mood, I guess. We all are going to have our favorite seasons, and for some that will be season 3. But not for me. I absolutely fail to see how season three comes off as superior in any respect to any other season of the show. My brother in law told me that Michael Mann had said once that seasons one and two were the only ones worth watching. I don't know if this is accurate and I would certainly disagree. But one and two, as far as I'm concerned, are the best overall seasons. Let me reiterate that season 3 is still Vice and it's still fantastic in my opinion. I just find it to be the weakest of the five glorious seasons.

[airtommy]

Wow, this is the best thread I've read on a long time. I'm going to have to bookmark it and spend some time digesting the comments.:thumbsup:

[Burnett1292]

I agree with you myonlyvice about the style over substance debate, and I wanted to clarify that I get very tired of it as well. I should have emphasized more that like I mentioned, I think that with Season 2 the production team perhaps gambled on the designer aspects of the show, and in some cases, really just got carried away with trying to live up to (and maybe even outdo itself with) it's "you've never seen anything like it on TV before" reputation. (Okay, I do have to say though , I'm not a fan of Phil the Shill, Out Where the Buses Don't Run and Whatever Works). I think the powers that be realized (wisely) that you can only repeat yourself so many times before interest is lost quickly (just look at Iron Man 2. Though it has done well at the box office, the consensus, even amongst fanboys, is that while it was good, it was more of just the same), hence the new and more serious direction in Season 3. Let's face it too, the 80's were a time of some serious fast moving excess and fads, and I also think that another reason for the change was that Michael Mann and the other producers realized that because MV was such an intense phenomenon, a change would be needed to prevent the show from going the way of Vans.

[Ferrariman]

In my opinion season 2 gets the most credit because that's when Vice hit it's high point. I think Vice really caught on during Summer reruns of season 1 because between the end of season 1 and the beginning of season 2 Vice was everywhere! Magazine covers, entertainment shows, you name it, and when DJ & PMT appeared in New York while filming "The Prodigal Son" there were so many screaming fans you'd swear The Beatles were back in town! By season 2 the popularity was so high that everyone wanted to be a guest star. Mostly rockers. Hell just look at the list of guest stars. Ted Nugent, Phil Collins, The Power Station, Frank Zappa. It was the hot show and everyone wanted to be a part of it! Now taking all of this into consideration I can see why many would say "style over substance" Good or bad, Vice turned into the guest star of the week and at times it seemed like they were trying to outdo themselves week after week. In that respect, yes, style took over.

[COOPER&BURNETT]

In my opinion season 2 gets the most credit because that's when Vice hit it's high point. I think Vice really caught on during Summer reruns of season 1 because between the end of season 1 and the beginning of season 2 Vice was everywhere! Magazine covers' date=' entertainment shows, you name it, and when DJ & PMT appeared in New York while filming "The Prodigal Son" there were so many screaming fans you'd swear The Beatles were back in town! By season 2 the popularity was so high that everyone wanted to be a guest star. Mostly rockers. Hell just look at the list of guest stars. Ted Nugent, Phil Collins, The Power Station, Frank Zappa. It was the hot show and everyone wanted to be a part of it! Now taking all of this into consideration I can see why many would say "style over substance" Good or bad, Vice turned into the guest star of the week and at times it seemed like they were trying to outdo themselves week after week. In that respect, yes, style took over.[/quote']........but I Loooooooove the style!!!!

[Ferrariman]

Oh, don't we all!!

[COOPER&BURNETT]

Oh' date=' don't we all!! [/quote']:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Tommy Vercetti]

I think Stone's War is way better than Back In The World. It's a much stronger and better written episode. I don't like either Ira Stone or Maynard but Stone's War was excellent because it had a good story and good action as well as great music and scenery.I think Contempt of Court is the weakest season opener. Just a dull episode. And I think most of the season 3 episodes you listed are masterpieces compared to some of the rubbish you get in season 4.BTW, the 'scream' when the Daytona gets blown up is actually from the song that was used over the scene, 'Wildcats of Kilkenny' by The Pogues.

[maynard]

I wish they would have made one more in Season 5 to tie up the lose ends from Back in the World and Stone's War.

[Guest myonlyvice]

I think Stone's War is way better than Back In The World. It's a much stronger and better written episode. I don't like either Ira Stone or Maynard but Stone's War was excellent because it had a good story and good action as well as great music and scenery.I think Contempt of Court is the weakest season opener. Just a dull episode. And I think most of the season 3 episodes you listed are masterpieces compared to some of the rubbish you get in season 4.BTW' date=' the 'scream' when the Daytona gets blown up is actually from the song that was used over the scene, 'Wildcats of Kilkenny' by The Pogues.[/quote'] Thanks for clarifying that about the scream, tommy. I've always wondered about that and I think the timing of it relative to the explosion was masterful. I wonder if it was planned that way? I heartily disagree about "World" vs "Stone's War", and "Irish" vs "Contempt" but hey, so what? They're all still great on an absolute scale. The only episode in the show that I would classify as absolute rubbish, if I may borrow your term, is "Leap of Faith", which apart from the teaser, ain't a Vice episode.

[Burnett1292]

In my opinion season 2 gets the most credit because that's when Vice hit it's high point. I think Vice really caught on during Summer reruns of season 1 because between the end of season 1 and the beginning of season 2 Vice was everywhere! Magazine covers' date=' entertainment shows, you name it, and when DJ & PMT appeared in New York while filming "The Prodigal Son" there were so many screaming fans you'd swear The Beatles were back in town! By season 2 the popularity was so high that everyone wanted to be a guest star. Mostly rockers. Hell just look at the list of guest stars. Ted Nugent, Phil Collins, The Power Station, Frank Zappa. It was the hot show and everyone wanted to be a part of it! Now taking all of this into consideration I can see why many would say "style over substance" Good or bad, Vice turned into the guest star of the week and at times it seemed like they were trying to outdo themselves week after week. In that respect, yes, style took over.[/quote'] You hit the nail on the head. It is a fact that MV did not pick up until the reruns between Season 1 and 2, and then it was like, "what do we do now"? ( Again, that's not to say I don't like some of the S@ eps).

[Burnett1292]

Whoops, I mean S2

[Kavinsky]

It was probably rigged up that way to emphasise the audiences reaction to the Daytona's destruction, hell I once read that someone actually cried when that happened, kinda funny considering its only a model:http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/3203/vlcsnap164195.pngsee? no wreckage http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/228/vlcsnap164443.pngFigures though that poor crockett didnt even get the honor of shooting the bastard, although I found it a touch weird that when the guy who blew up the daytona was gunned down by castillo there was no reaction from crockett when he saw his body or even a quip like this: tubbs, yeah? dibs on the testarossa!