Episode #33 "Phil The Shill"

[OCBman]

2 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

He may end up being one of those MV mysteries (like who was Manny, Izzy’s driver?) that we can’t seem to figure out?

Like this actress that played Ortega or was her name figured out yet?

 

[RedDragon86]

3 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

I’ve tried looking for who this guy was all over, but can’t seem to find him. The MV Wikia page for this episode even mentions ‘River’s bodyguard’ shooting the two guys hanging in the old hanger in the plot section...but it does not say who the bodyguard was anywhere, even in the guest cast list??  

He just may be one of those background actors that may get paid a small amount for each thing they are in, but for whatever reason they’re not usually credited if they don’t have that big a part,  or if they don’t have a speaking part. There are a few ‘uncredited’ people that were in the movie Lock Up, listed at the bottom of the cast list on IMDb...but I’m not sure any of those are the guy you’re looking for, and I’ve not seen Lock Up before, lol.

He may end up being one of those MV mysteries (like who was Manny, Izzy’s driver?) that we can’t seem to figure out?  

Here he is in "Lock Up" and like you said he wasn't credited, neither was Danny Trejo in the movie which was understandable as pahonu said, non speaking actors were not part of the cast back then.

"Lock Up"

But the thing is Rivers bodyguard does have lines, he is actually part of Paul Diamond's teleplay

Edited May 7, 2022 by RedDragon86

[Tom]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb OCBman:

Like this actress that played Ortega or was her name figured out yet?

 

Yes, we know. Quote from the "Behind the scenes of Miami Vice" book (1986): "A defendant in Russell's courtroom who goes free because of a payoff is Veronica Reidel—who stands over six feet tall. Reidel started out on the VICE crew in the computer office handling script transmissions ..."

Edited May 7, 2022 by Tom

[ViceFanMan]

3 hours ago, Tom said:

 

Actually the question asked by Phil in the TV show was WHEN/WHERE Elvis shot out a TV for the last time and WHO was the intended target. 

That was exactly the hint to us TV viewers that this must have been rigged as Joe Perth who had not been able to answer any much easier question about Elvis before suddenly knew all details of the answer (date/location and Robert Goulet) in the last second and also said it in a very pre-trained computer-like staccato tone. 

 

True...Perth had been given the answer & trained to answer by Phil—very obvious & ridiculous, too. The question referred to the incident in 1974 when Elvis actually shot out a TV when Robert Goulet came on...I believe at a Ramada Inn.

[ViceFanMan]

3 hours ago, OCBman said:

Like this actress that played Ortega or was her name figured out yet?

 

Yeah, Ortega was eventually figured out...but Manny, Izzy’s driver, still remains a mystery as far as I know. 

[ViceFanMan]

3 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

Here he is in "Lock Up" and like you said he wasn't credited, neither was Danny Trejo in the movie which was understandable as pahonu said, non speaking actors were not part of the cast back then.

"Lock Up"

But the thing is Rivers bodyguard does have lines, he is actually part of Paul Diamond's teleplay

 Not sure? Maybe even with a couple speaking lines, it still wasn’t considered a big enough part, and they didn’t want to have to pay him more to have him credited in the cast list? 

[pahonu]

9 hours ago, RedDragon86 said:

The bodyguard does have a few lines though, he speaks to Sonny (Burnett) and Rivers. 

 

If the bodyguard had lines then it’s unusual that he was not credited.  
 

There is also the occasional circumstance where a line is inserted into a scene later, typically when a character is not facing the camera.  It’s not exactly dubbing, but it can save time and money if it is the only line the character had.  Sometimes adding the line is only decided upon later to improve the clarity of the scene.  The person doing the line was typically a producer.

[RedDragon86]

10 hours ago, pahonu said:

If the bodyguard had lines then it’s unusual that he was not credited.  
 

There is also the occasional circumstance where a line is inserted into a scene later, typically when a character is not facing the camera.  It’s not exactly dubbing, but it can save time and money if it is the only line the character had.  Sometimes adding the line is only decided upon later to improve the clarity of the scene.  The person doing the line was typically a producer.

So he should have been credited then, thanks' for the info 

These are his lines-

"The only guy that's
been in this car
is that pilot, Stewart"

"I don't see squat"

"Now it looks better"

[pahonu]

12 minutes ago, RedDragon86 said:

So he should have been credited then, thanks' for the info 

These are his lines-

"The only guy that's
been in this car
is that pilot, Stewart"

"I don't see squat"

"Now it looks better"

The small number of lines means he would have been classified as a bit part.  It falls between a day player and an extra in terms of pay.  Sometimes the term under-five is used, as in fewer than five lines, though I think there is an actual word count used.

Bit parts are typically credited unless it is a cameo role where the celebrity chooses not to be.  As I mentioned previously, an extra can be bumped up to this level of pay for various reasons.

These rules have likely changed since SAG merged with AFTRA several years ago, but they were the rules in the early to mid-90’s when I was involved in production.  This was just a few years after Vice ended.

I’ve also always wondered if having the production team in Miami, as opposed to much of the pre- and most of the post-production work done by people in Hollywood, led to some miscommunications.  That might be the case here.

There was also an upside to the separation.  I’m sure the production crew had far fewer cases of the Hollywood suits “dropping in” on set and demanding changes.  I heard plenty of such horror stories on other productions.

 

[Robbie C.]

Maybe Don Johnson didn't like him and got his name pulled... At this remove I think it's impossible to really know why some people made it into the cast lists and others (like Izzy's cousin Manny) didn't. I know if you watch shows from the '60s it can range all over the place. Perry Mason, for example, seemed to credit anyone who said anything, while Gunsmoke was quite sparse in its credits.

[RedDragon86]

Strange how the cast didn't even know Manny first name, he was in numerous episodes.

Michael Talbott was asked once and he said he was a local kid.

[pahonu]

1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said:

Strange how the cast didn't even know Manny first name, he was in numerous episodes.

Michael Talbott was asked once and he said he was a local kid.

This might be an example of the disconnect I mentioned.  Almost all of the guest stars would have been cast by Hollywood agencies.  Parts like Manny would have been people found locally.  Without lines, the kid wouldn’t have been listed by name on the AD’s call sheet for the day that the cast and crew were given.  It would probably have said simply “Manny” on the extras line. I’m not too surprised the cast didn’t remember his name.

Edit:

Here’s a couple pictures of an old call sheet I somehow kept and my wife found while looking through some sheet music.  It was posted in Coop’s pages several years ago.

You can see the actors names and their character names on the first sheet.  Below, the atmosphere and standins line says 6 models, 2 police, 1 lifeguard, 2 boat crew, 3 dock atmosphere, and in this scene a bunch of crew because it was a scene involving a commercial being filmed.  This is where it likely said “Manny” on the MV call sheet.

If I remember correctly I was used on the boat that day, but it’s been almost 30 years, so…???

Edited May 8, 2022 by pahonu

[Tom]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Robbie C.:

Maybe Don Johnson didn't like him and got his name pulled... At this remove I think it's impossible to really know why some people made it into the cast lists and others (like Izzy's cousin Manny) didn't. 

Before we create any false legends here against DJ or anyone else let’s stick to the facts: NO actor of a non-speaking role was ever mentioned in any closing credits of MV as this is actually an extra job only.

That was and is standard in all US productions. If you had one word to speak you got the SAG card and had to be credited by SAG rules otherwise no mention. Thus speaking roles were not granted to everyone. I remember that some actress mentioned she got the SAG card (and other roles) only because EJO insisted that she said a line to him in OCB. 

We just had the question in another thread who played the Ortega lady in „The Fix“ who also has not a single line and was not credited (in this case we know her name only as she was a crew member and mentioned in the MV book). On the contrary there was only one speaking (guest star) role that was not credited neither in opening nor closing credits and that was Lee Iacocca.

PS I have the daily production sheets of Walk Alone where Manny was part of and I will dig it up in my basement. I bet that they did not call him “Manny - N.N.” on the call sheets!

Edited May 8, 2022 by Tom

[Robbie C.]

4 minutes ago, Tom said:

Before we create any false legends here against DJ or anyone else let’s stick to the facts: NO actor of a non-speaking role was ever mentioned in any closing credits of MV as this is actually an extra job only.

That was and is standard in all US productions. If you had one word to speak you got the SAG card and had to be credited by SAG trikes otherwise no mention. Thus speaking roles were not granted to everyone. I remember that some actress mentioned she got the SAG card only because EJO insisted that she said a line to him in OCB. 

We just had the question in another thread who played the Ortega lady in „The Fix“ who also has not a single line and was not credited (in this case we know her name only as she was mentioned in the MV book). On the contrary there was only one speaking (guest star) role that was not credited neither in opening nor closing credits and that was Lee Iacocca.

If we're sticking with facts, the bodyguard DID have a speaking role, as has been pointed out a couple of times. And I have seen other cases of speaking roles not being credited in older productions. Manny, on the other hand, never spoke as far as I can recall so his absence in the credits is understandable.

[Tom]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Robbie C.:

If we're sticking with facts, the bodyguard DID have a speaking role, as has been pointed out a couple of times. And I have seen other cases of speaking roles not being credited in older productions. Manny, on the other hand, never spoke as far as I can recall so his absence in the credits is understandable.

That‘s why I wrote after facts  „NO non speaking role …“ and the bodyguard was a speaking role, Manny not.

[Robbie C.]

Yet he's not in the credits, which gets back to what I said: at this distance from the show there's no way to know why the bodyguard didn't appear in the credits. These days, yes...everyone and their dog who speaks is in the credits, or at least has a much higher chance of ending up there. Back then...not so much. In some instances it seems to tie to if the character is named or not. Perry Mason tended to list everyone who spoke, even if it was just "man on elevator" who said "hello" to Paul Drake. Gunsmoke, from the same era, only seemed to list them if the character was named. So "guy shouting at Matt" wouldn't be credited, but "Cowboy Bob" who may have just said "no" when Matt asked "Did you see anything, Bob?" might be.

[ViceFanMan]

It’d be awesome if somehow we could discover the identity of River’s body guard...but even more so, Manny!  

I might be wrong & thinking of someone/something else...but believe it or not I think Manny actually did mumble or mutter a word once. I think Crockett or someone yelled a question (sarcastically) at him while they were upset with Izzy in an episode...and Manny muttered a “no” (or something like that) in response.

However, this may have not been in the script & the actor just spoke it on his own...and so it may not have been considered an actual speaking part. 

[pahonu]

As I explained previously, there was/is? a SAG category in TV that falls between a guest role and and an extra.  The bit part or “under five” actor was paid about 2-3x what an extra earned when I was in production, and would receive a SAG voucher that day.  Three such vouchers allowed for application to join SAG.  Guest roles, or day players with significant parts received a much larger SAG minimum, or scale.  It was a couple of grand back then.

This is from memory almost 30 years ago, but in 1993 SAG extras received $100 for 8 hours.  Bit parts might  receive a couple of hundred dollar bump, and guest roles were a couple of thousand.  This is all scale, or base rate.  Featured actors could negotiate for more.  There were also a number of non-SAG extras allowed each day (I don’t recall the rule but it had to do with budget) and the rate was just $65 for 8 hours in 1993.  I remember the extra rates well because I signed off on the vouchers as a PA.

I was in production, not pre- where the casting happened at all levels, or post- where credits were assigned.  I do recall though, that bit parts were usually credited at the time, even though the pay was much less than guest roles.  There was actually a lot of enthusiasm about getting a credit, even with low pay as it was of value to new actors to have on their resume.

None of this is any evidence about what happened on any particular episode of MV, but it was the standard for TV production at the time.  I agree that it is too far back to know for certain what specific things occurred during any specific episode, but there were definitely some questionable production decisions that occurred during my brief time in the industry.  

As a PA, I was told more than once by a producer to do something I knew/thought violated the rules.  I was non-union, young and new, and kept my mouth shut to keep working.  One in particular involved what should have been a stunt requirement but didn’t use stunt crew.  It probably saved the production at least a few grand in a very brief scene with just seconds of screen time.

[johnnyfarragut]

Phil Collins recalls his role in his autobiography Not Dead Yet (2016):

Edited November 27, 2022 by johnnyfarragut

[Tom]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb johnnyfarragut:

Phil Collins recalls his role in his autobiography Not Dead Yet (2016):

 Thanks for posting, I read his biography as well, but forgot to share. But one part of Phil´s memory is definitely wrong as he has maybe forgotten or mixed up. That episode was filmed in late October/early November, so "I´m back home for the summer" is strange unless November is summer in the UK 

[TylerDurden389]

I'd imagine that's about all Phil could put in writing regarding filming the episode. A lot of what happened in the 80's stays in the 80's lol.

[apocalypse]

One of my favorite episodes. Phil was sensational in his role.

 

[RedDragon86]

20 hours ago, apocalypse said:

One of my favorite episodes. Phil was sensational in his role.

 

He was absolutely brilliant, my favorite guest star.  

Phil Collins was a huge element in the series and hope he realized that.

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, RedDragon86 said:

He was absolutely brilliant, my favorite guest star.  

Phil Collins was a huge element in the series and hope he realized that.

Besides his 1 guest star appearance (I’ve always thought they should have brought him & Kyra back again in a future episode), I’m sure he made a nice chunk-of-change off producers having to pay him for the use of his songs.  I’m pretty sure he would have realized his impact on the show...even if it was mainly audio. 

[johnnyfarragut]

Watched the episode yesterday. I 've had this damn song inside my head the whole day!