Episode #59 "The Savage" ("Duty & Honor")

[jpaul1]

in the french version the stuff looks like vam dap. which is translated by Google as 'good job'. which looks totally appropriate

according to the book i'm reading, which i didn't finish, that episode is highly unrealistic btw. US & South vietnam intelligence was extremelly poor back then. North vietnam was extremelly difficult to infiltrate, and a 'US faced' guy would be like going in enemy territory with a flashing beacon onto one's head. the 'Rambo' infiltrating a VC position is highly unrealistic, and in real life failed in 99% (maybe 100%) of the cases. during the vietnam war the US were very good on ground, at sea, and in the air, but were pretty much terrible at intelligence/infiltration. and a black rambo doing damage to the VC is pretty much improbable

[ViceFanMan]

13 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

Maybe it’s Gina that says “vẫm”

Maybe...but from what I remember it sounds the same to me with each of them, but it’s been a while since I’ve watched it. I’ll have to do that soon. 

[ViceFanMan]

2 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

in the french version the stuff looks like vam dap. which is translated by Google as 'good job'. which looks totally appropriate

according to the book i'm reading, which i didn't finish, that episode is highly unrealistic btw. US & South vietnam intelligence was extremelly poor back then. North vietnam was extremelly difficult to infiltrate, and a 'US faced' guy would be like going in enemy territory with a flashing beacon onto one's head. the 'Rambo' infiltrating a VC position is highly unrealistic, and in real life failed in 99% (maybe 100%) of the cases. during the vietnam war the US were very good on ground, at sea, and in the air, but were pretty much terrible at intelligence/infiltration. and a black rambo doing damage to the VC is pretty much improbable

Another unrealistic aspect is Michael Wright, who played ‘The Savage’, would have only been 14 in 1970 when the first killings started.  But, I guess his character was supposed to be older? He looked rough enough, but that was probably on purpose. 

[jpaul1]

the physical means nothing. some people don't age. my sister is older than me. last time i saw her on a vid i misunderstood her with her 20 yo daughter

pretty sure the good job, is the good translation though

[ViceFanMan]

3 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

the physical means nothing. some people don't age. my sister is older than me. last time i saw her on a vid i misunderstood her with her 20 yo daughter

pretty sure the good job, is the good translation though

True...sometimes physical appearance doesn’t matter. I’m in my late 40s and I still sometimes get carded (depending on how I’m dressed), and I’m 4 years older than my brother...yet people always think he’s older.  As Indiana Jones said in Raiders....“It’s not the year, it’s the mileage”. 

But, it’s somewhat funny to me to know the person playing the part couldn’t have really done it in reality, at the time claimed in the episode. ‘Good Job’ could very well be what the translation is...I guess it would be telling him good job on what he’s done, to throw him off...as in his mind there’d be no way these 2 strange women (Gina & Trudy) could know him or what he’d done. 

[jpaul1]

i'd rather tend for a prostitute thing. like if you come with me, i will treat you good you know. but yeah could be done like a psycological bomb as well. and see how he'll react into that unexpected but nonetheless highly confusing situation

[ViceFanMan]

2 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

i'd rather tend for a prostitute thing. like if you come with me, i will treat you good you know. but yeah could be done like a psycological bomb as well. and see how he'll react into that unexpected but nonetheless highly confusing situation

True...it could be that way as well?? I agree...very confusing. 

[RedDragon86]

I thought the translation was “me love you long time” 

[wolfie1996]

On 11/20/2022 at 7:02 PM, Dadrian said:

Not sure if everyone gets that one, but I’m glad I do.  

Me too, Dadrian

 

[Robbie C.]

6 hours ago, Dadrian said:

Did we ever solve the mystery of what Crockett tells Gina to say to the killer on the bridge?

I’ve asked some of my Vietnamese clients and even they don’t know. 

My wife was watching this episode with me last night. She was in the cosmetology profession years ago, and worked in a Vietnamese salon for years, so she understands a lot of the language. 

When Crockett said the words, my wife casually said “still beautiful”. 

Could this be it? “vẫn đẹp”

It sounds more like they’re saying “vẫm” than “vẫn” to me, but maybe Ns sound like Ms in Vietnamese pronunciations? 

Whatever they actually said doesn't seem to line up with the script. In that, Gina opens with "Bao chi," which literally translates as how much. There's no question mark, though. The second part of the phrase doesn't seem to translate well at all (the first word means 'bottle'). If you add in the proper diacritical marks, the first part translates to "newspapers."

Vietnamese pronunciation is tricky, and would have likely been mangled back when this episode was made. And according to Google, vẫm translates as 'dawg' so I doubt that's what they meant.

I could get into some historical possibilities for the Savage's Vietnam timeline, but it seems kinda pointless.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Robbie C.

[ViceFanMan]

13 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Whatever they actually said doesn't seem to line up with the script. In that, Gina opens with "Bao chi," which literally translates as how much. There's no question mark, though. The second part of the phrase doesn't seem to translate well at all (the first word means 'bottle'). If you add in the proper diacritical marks, the first part translates to "newspapers."

Vietnamese pronunciation is tricky, and would have likely been mangled back when this episode was made. And according to Google, vẫm translates as 'dawg' so I doubt that's what they meant.

I could get into some historical possibilities for the Savage's Vietnam timeline, but it seems kinda pointless.

The “bao chi” (how much) makes sense...even without the grammatically correct question mark, obviously her original line in the script was to try & proposition ‘Savage’. For some reason the phrase was changed to something that doesn’t seem to translate well to the English language. The 2nd part of the phrase I always thought it was “dep”...which translates to beautiful or handsome, but the 1st part doesn’t translate very well that I could find. I’m sure it was probably mangled  pretty bad, from anything in reality. 

[Dadrian]

39 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

I could get into some historical possibilities for the Savage's Vietnam timeline, but it seems kinda pointless.

I’ve been watching the show so long, I’m kinda down to the pointless, if you haven’t noticed.  

Thanks for the input though! 

[Robbie C.]

4 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

I’ve been watching the show so long, I’m kinda down to the pointless, if you haven’t noticed.  

Thanks for the input though! 

Obviously I am as well. 

[ViceFanMan]

25 minutes ago, Dadrian said:

I’ve been watching the show so long, I’m kinda down to the pointless, if you haven’t noticed.  

I know...but sometimes it’s still fun to notice little details or aspects that haven’t been discussed as much.  I usually wait a couple years in between viewings. Sometimes longer.  

[ViceFanMan]

Another “quirky” aspect about this episode is the title. Most know that it, in a way, has two different titles: “The Savage” & “Duty and Honor”. IMDB and MV’s wiki fandom page (which copies some stuff from IMDB) both claim that the episode originally aired with the title “The Savage”...and later when the show went into syndication the title was then changed to “Duty & Honor” for the reruns—and that title was used from then on. 

However, that’s incorrect. I have an original NBC airing, and the “Duty & Honor” title was used. I think the original script & episode had the working title “The Savage”, but for some reason was changed to the “Duty” one when it was ultimately aired. I don’t believe the “Savage” title was ever actually aired.

Edited March 2, 2023 by ViceFanMan

[Dadrian]

It may be The Mandela Effect, but this episode has always been The Savage to me, and I could swear I’ve seen it on a screen. I can see why the powers that be would abstain from it in retrospect. The word has some very negative connotations, especially in those of heritage. 

Then again, I’ve always referred to Golden Triangle pts. 1 and 2 as Score and Golden Triangle, and I’ve never seen those original broadcasts. 

@Ferrariman do you remember if your VHS said The Savage?

[ViceFanMan]

1 minute ago, Dadrian said:

It may be The Mandela Effect, but this episode has always been The Savage to me, and I could swear I’ve seen it on a screen. I can see why the powers that be would abstain from it in retrospect. The word has some very negative connotations, especially in those of heritage. 

Then again, I’ve always referred to Golden Triangle pts. 1 and 2 as Score and Golden Triangle, and I’ve never seen those original broadcasts. 

@Ferrariman do you remember if your VHS said The Savage?

Yeah, the word ‘savage’ has more of a negative connotation now...but then I didn’t  think it was looked upon as ‘bad’ as it is in more current times. But, then again, maybe even at that time they felt it was too negative of a title? I’m not exactly sure why the title was changed? But, the original airing used “Duty and Honor”.

You are correct, the “Golden Triangle” episodes originally did air with the titles “Score” (Pt. 1) & “Golden Triangle” (Pt. 2). For some reason those titles were later changed in syndication to “Golden Triangle” Pts. 1&2. I don’t know why with that either?

[jpaul1]

13 hours ago, Robbie C. said:

I could get into some historical possibilities for the Savage's Vietnam timeline, but it seems kinda pointless.

then why making that sentence. develop or not but don't make useless and catchy sentences. I say that because i would have been interested into such stuff personnally

Edited March 2, 2023 by jpaul1

[Ferrariman]

7 hours ago, Dadrian said:

It may be The Mandela Effect, but this episode has always been The Savage to me, and I could swear I’ve seen it on a screen. I can see why the powers that be would abstain from it in retrospect. The word has some very negative connotations, especially in those of heritage. 

Then again, I’ve always referred to Golden Triangle pts. 1 and 2 as Score and Golden Triangle, and I’ve never seen those original broadcasts. 

@Ferrariman do you remember if your VHS said The Savage?

I've always known it as "Duty and Honor"  

Also "Score"  and "Golden Triangle"    and 

"Hit List" and "Calderone's Demise"    When it came time for reruns NBC made a Sunday night movie of these 2 episodes and called it "The Return of Calderone"  

[Robbie C.]

3 hours ago, jpaul1 said:

then why making that sentence. develop or not but don't make useless and catchy sentences. I say that because i would have been interested into such stuff personnally

Maybe you should finish that book you mentioned first...

Anyhow, the episode never claimed the Savage was infiltrating North Vietnam or anything like that. It specifically linked him to elements of Project Phoenix, which operated almost exclusively in the III and IV Corps CTZs (the Delta and areas roughly west and north of Saigon-in theory it was a country-wide operation). He was also supposedly targeting Viet Cong, not NVA, and was involved in what is euphemistically called "direct action" (in other words, he was sent out to kill people). Phoenix itself remains very controversial...some contend it was effective while others insist it existed mainly to settle old political scores for the South Vietnamese. It was also a joint operation with the South Vietnamese, and many of the PRUs (Provincial Reconnaissance Units) used by Phoenix were composed of former Viet Cong or convicts in some cases.

The script places the Savage in Phoenix in about 1970, and the vet say he heard the Savage had been in-country "a lot longer." It doesn't say if this was before or after 1970 or a combination of both, or even what "a lot longer" really means. And I wouldn't pay much attention to that whole "behind enemy lines" thing. That could refer to operating in the Delta, which was considered VC territory for quite a bit of the conflict, or War Zones C or D north of Saigon. Project Phoenix in theory ran from 1967 until 1972, so you could actually put the Savage in country at roughly the same time Sonny was (1969-1971 give or take). Which would make him roughly the same age as Sonny. The fact that he uses a K-Bar (a combat knife issued almost exclusively to Marines) is also an interesting link, since according to most available canon evidence (and even stated in the draft script for Back in the World if I remember correctly) Sonny was a Marine.

[Robbie C.]

8 hours ago, ViceFanMan said:

Yeah, the word ‘savage’ has more of a negative connotation now...but then I didn’t  think it was looked upon as ‘bad’ as it is in more current times. But, then again, maybe even at that time they felt it was too negative of a title? I’m not exactly sure why the title was changed? But, the original airing used “Duty and Honor”.

You are correct, the “Golden Triangle” episodes originally did air with the titles “Score” (Pt. 1) & “Golden Triangle” (Pt. 2). For some reason those titles were later changed in syndication to “Golden Triangle” Pts. 1&2. I don’t know why with that either?

Those titles might have been changed for clarity.

The only available draft script for this episode (and it's a late-revision version dated 12/8/1986) uses the title "The Savage." Steven Sanders' book also uses the title "The Savage" exclusively when referring to this episode. In his episode list he does give "aka Duty and Honor", which is the same thing he does with Golden Triangle Part 1 (aka Score).

[ViceFanMan]

10 minutes ago, Robbie C. said:

Those titles might have been changed for clarity.

The only available draft script for this episode (and it's a late-revision version dated 12/8/1986) uses the title "The Savage." Steven Sanders' book also uses the title "The Savage" exclusively when referring to this episode. In his episode list he does give "aka Duty and Honor", which is the same thing he does with Golden Triangle Part 1 (aka Score).

I guess the “Savage” title could have been changed last minute, before airing, to focus more on the friendship between Castillo & Van Trahn, rather than just the psycho killer himself.

But, changing the “Score” & “Golden Triangle” titles out to just “Golden Triangle” doesn’t really make sense to me...neither needed further clarification, and the original titles explained themselves? But, oh well...funny quirks we may never really know why they were done. 

[ViceFanMan]

1 hour ago, Ferrariman said:

I've always known it as "Duty and Honor"  

Also "Score"  and "Golden Triangle"    and 

"Hit List" and "Calderone's Demise"    When it came time for reruns NBC made a Sunday night movie of these 2 episodes and called it "The Return of Calderone"  

Yeah, for whatever reason they changed the “Savage” title to “Duty & Honor” before the episode aired. I stated this in an above post, but maybe it was to focus more on the friendship between Van Trahn & Castillo, rather than the assassin/killer.

Yeah, the original titles for the Calderone ones were “Hit List” & “Calderone’s Demise”...later changed to “Calderone’s Return” Pts. 1&2 in syndication. Not sure why that was done either? Like the original “Score” & “Golden Triangle” titles...they all explained themselves, and I don’t know why they needed to be changed out? 

[jpaul1]

1 hour ago, Robbie C. said:

Maybe you should finish that book you mentioned first...

Anyhow, the episode never claimed the Savage was infiltrating North Vietnam or anything like that. It specifically linked him to elements of Project Phoenix, which operated almost exclusively in the III and IV Corps CTZs (the Delta and areas roughly west and north of Saigon-in theory it was a country-wide operation). He was also supposedly targeting Viet Cong, not NVA, and was involved in what is euphemistically called "direct action" (in other words, he was sent out to kill people). Phoenix itself remains very controversial...some contend it was effective while others insist it existed mainly to settle old political scores for the South Vietnamese. It was also a joint operation with the South Vietnamese, and many of the PRUs (Provincial Reconnaissance Units) used by Phoenix were composed of former Viet Cong or convicts in some cases.

The script places the Savage in Phoenix in about 1970, and the vet say he heard the Savage had been in-country "a lot longer." It doesn't say if this was before or after 1970 or a combination of both, or even what "a lot longer" really means. And I wouldn't pay much attention to that whole "behind enemy lines" thing. That could refer to operating in the Delta, which was considered VC territory for quite a bit of the conflict, or War Zones C or D north of Saigon. Project Phoenix in theory ran from 1967 until 1972, so you could actually put the Savage in country at roughly the same time Sonny was (1969-1971 give or take). Which would make him roughly the same age as Sonny. The fact that he uses a K-Bar (a combat knife issued almost exclusively to Marines) is also an interesting link, since according to most available canon evidence (and even stated in the draft script for Back in the World if I remember correctly) Sonny was a Marine.

wow, yeah i wasn't aware of that program. I couldn't imagine such inhumanity could exist. but maybe i should have. because it's know from all that the CIA, until maybe recently had no limit. a civilian assassination program on an industrial scale. I was far from the count i admit

[Robbie C.]

50 minutes ago, jpaul1 said:

wow, yeah i wasn't aware of that program. I couldn't imagine such inhumanity could exist. but maybe i should have. because it's know from all that the CIA, until maybe recently had no limit. a civilian assassination program on an industrial scale. I was far from the count i admit

The VC and NVA had similar practices in many ways and areas. It was a nasty time and place.