Little Prince - sad news for sleuths

[jpaul1]

i understand better now

[Matt5]

8 hours ago, pahonu said:

Thanks jpm,

After all, it was a house designed almost a century ago, when architecturally speaking, technology and social demands were entirely different.  This home would have had at least two or three servants taking care of it, perhaps more.  The two rooms originally over the garage were almost certainly for servants.  A three car garage was quite spacious in the 1920's when many families still didn't have a single car. Air conditioning as we know it didn't exist, so the entire house is designed to capture breezes to keep cool.  This means rooms with door and window openings on multiple walls and high ceilings.  The single third floor room is a prime example of this.  It was originally was open on all four sides and would likely have been used as a sleeping porch on those steamy Miami summer nights.  Exterior hallways, as existed originally on the front, also allowed for improved air circulation.  The rooms opening onto one another in a row, called enfilade, is another method of improving air circulation in the hot climate.  Overall, it is an excellent example of Mediterranean Revival architecture, adapted to a sub-tropical climate, by one of the earliest licensed architects in the Miami area, Walter Degarmo.   There are many ways it could have been renovated to adapt to modern life while preserving the craftsmanship of it's period details.  It's a shame it was razed instead. 

Beautiful house.

[pahonu]

jpm1 and Matt 5,

Thanks for the compliments.  I've added some floor plans, including dimensions, to give you an idea of the size of the house.  Walking around inside 3D SketchUp models always feels a bit cramped.  I have created dozens of models over the years  This is, in fact quite a large home.  The living room alone is 32' x 20' or 640 sq. ft.  That's the size of a small one bedroom apartment.  Overall the main house is approximately 2772 sq. ft. on the first floor not counting covered porches, 2038 sq. ft. on the second floor, and 448 sq. ft. on the third floor.  That's 5258 sq. ft. total.  That's a pretty big house.  The garage is 704 sq. ft. with the service area attached having 620 sq. ft.  The two bedrooms and bathrooms above the garage add another 512 sq. ft.  That totals 6390 sq. ft. of enclosed living space not counting the garage, which was actually enclosed into an apartment at some point in the past before demolition.  That's just about 7000 sq. ft.  There's also just under 900 sq. ft. of covered porch space in the home.  That's approaching 8000 sq. ft. of livable indoor and covered outdoor space.  My model also included my own design for a pool/spa and pool house including on the first floor a bathroom/changing room, pool equipment room at 384 sq. ft., and an upstairs guest suite of another 384 sq. ft.  Now your past 8500 sq. ft.  That's quite a built space, and then there's the grounds and terraces...

I feel the home could have been renovated in a sensitive way, respecting the architecture of Miami's leading architect of the era, Walter Degarmo, while providing a more modern design with an incredible amount of space for a family today.

I just added a pic of the grounds.

Edit 2:  Bedroom 2 in my model and it's bathroom, are the ones used in the episode as Mark's room.  The bathroom has blue tile.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by pahonu

[Matt5]

16 hours ago, pahonu said:

jpm1 and Matt 5,

Thanks for the compliments.  I've added some floor plans, including dimensions, to give you an idea of the size of the house.  Walking around inside 3D SketchUp models always feels a bit cramped.  I have created dozens of models over the years  This is, in fact quite a large home.  The living room alone is 32' x 20' or 640 sq. ft.  That's the size of a small one bedroom apartment.  Overall the main house is approximately 2772 sq. ft. on the first floor not counting covered porches, 2038 sq. ft. on the second floor, and 448 sq. ft. on the third floor.  That's 5258 sq. ft. total.  That's a pretty big house.  The garage is 704 sq. ft. with the service area attached having 620 sq. ft.  The two bedrooms and bathrooms above the garage add another 512 sq. ft.  That totals 6390 sq. ft. of enclosed living space not counting the garage, which was actually enclosed into an apartment at some point in the past before demolition.  That's just about 7000 sq. ft.  There's also just under 900 sq. ft. of covered porch space in the home.  That's approaching 8000 sq. ft. of livable indoor and covered outdoor space.  My model also included my own design for a pool/spa and pool house including on the first floor a bathroom/changing room, pool equipment room at 384 sq. ft., and an upstairs guest suite of another 384 sq. ft.  Now your past 8500 sq. ft.  That's quite a built space, and then there's the grounds and terraces...

I feel the home could have been renovated in a sensitive way, respecting the architecture of Miami's leading architect of the era, Walter Degarmo, while providing a more modern design with an incredible amount of space for a family today.

I just added a pic of the grounds.

Edit 2:  Bedroom 2 in my model and it's bathroom, are the ones used in the episode as Mark's room.  The bathroom has blue tile.

 

 

Great information thankyou for sharing - I saw this house yesterday nothing like as good as when we saw it in “Little Prince”.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Matt5

[jpaul1]

20 hours ago, pahonu said:

I have created dozens of models over the years

Miami homes, or professional models

[pahonu]

8 hours ago, jpm1 said:

Miami homes, or professional models

Not any other Miami structures, unfortunately.  I teach in an Architecture and Engineering Academy within my high school.  We use the program for various project with students and I often use examples I've created.  My choice of structures to model is entirely based on my interests.  They're usually historic in nature.  We start with simpler structures like my own home.  Students then measure and create models of their homes.  I used the Star Island home two years ago as an example in a project. Elevations of the property were found and many photos posted around the time of the demolition fight, so I chose to model it.  The students learned how to digitize historic construction documents of their own and then use them to create a model.  Some models are far more detailed and complex than what I posted, including plant material, furniture, etc...  I'll try to remember and post one tomorrow from work.  You won't know the structure, but it will be far more detailed.

[jpaul1]

one last question, if you agree. why did you choose Sketchup, instead of Blender for example. is there any particular reason

[pahonu]

17 hours ago, jpm1 said:

one last question, if you agree. why did you choose Sketchup, instead of Blender for example. is there any particular reason

SketchUp was our Academy's initial choice because it was free and is better, I believe, for architectural rendering than Blender.  Animation is not as easy, but texturization and some other features work well for architectural modeling.  We also use AutoCAD  for design with the ability to convert to 3D, and Revit for creation of specific construction documents.  There are tradeoffs as far as cost, some of which are free and others which require a site license for a school, and the steepness of the learning curve.  I work with high school sophomore through seniors.  Those who go onto careers in architecture will have access to far more powerful programs than we teach.

 

I also forgot to post today the more advanced models I mentioned in the previous post. 

Edited January 24, 2019 by pahonu

[jpaul1]

Thank you pahonu

[pahonu]

21 hours ago, jpm1 said:

Thank you pahonu

I remembered to post those SketchUp images from a more detailed model.

These are from a culminating senior project of one of our academy students.  It was designed and developed for an actual property in the Long Beach neighborhood of Belmont Shore.  The corner property is about 50 yards from the beach and, being so close to the water, is quite small (and expensive!) as are the surrounding properties.  It measures just 35 x 80 feet, with a maximum building footprint of 24 x 60 feet.  It has 3 foot setbacks on the sides, and a zero lot line on the rear alley.  The front setback is 20 feet.

This is one of many hypothetical properties that senior students can choose from, all with different program requirements and challenges.  The major challenges of this location are the small property size itself. Also the requirement for a private outdoor living space in a space which doesn't allow for a rear yard because of a city requirement for two off street parking spots.  Other students in the past have provided roof top space, which isn't completely private.  This student cleverly incorporated a side courtyard, which also fit well with the Spanish/Moorish detailing of the home.  One of the benefits of this choice of property was a larger budget in accordance with the affluence of the neighborhood.  This model helped the student secure an internship with a architecture firm in the LA area.

Anyway, here are some interior and exterior renderings, some furnished, others not:

 

 

Edited January 25, 2019 by pahonu

[jpaul1]

yeah he tried to create a kind of riad. the idea is very interesting, and it's the first time i see this in a Floridian home. personnally if i were a buyer, i'd rather buy a several hundreds squared meters abandonned palace in the Maroccan backcountry and restore it for very cheap. than purchasing a small home in Miami. but the designer creativity is certain. keep posting if you have more of this

[pahonu]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 1:33 PM, jpm1 said:

yeah he tried to create a kind of riad. the idea is very interesting, and it's the first time i see this in a Floridian home. personnally if i were a buyer, i'd rather buy a several hundreds squared meters abandonned palace in the Maroccan backcountry and restore it for very cheap. than purchasing a small home in Miami. but the designer creativity is certain. keep posting if you have more of this

Hey JPM,

I agree, the courtyard is the most clever part of the design.  It also has a fireplace.  I suggested he consider researching adding the mashrabiya on the second floor of the courtyard when he showed interest in adding Moorish detailing.  It's very suggestive of the Arabic influence of the Maghreb.  The zig-zag detailing on the parapet of the mass over the garage is also Moorish inspired as is the window in that mass.  That window shape is repeated elsewhere in the house like the living room fireplace.  The keyhole arch of the opening between the living/dining room and kitchen and it's tile surround is also Moorish.

I'm not sure what you mean by Floridian house.  The design is primarily Spanish Colonial Revival Architecture made popular in the 20's and 30's in California by the Santa Barbara-area architect George Washington Smith.  The neighborhood the property is located in was developed in the 20's which is why I suggested the style to him.  He was interested in the Moorish/Arabic detailing which I helped him incorporate, and I think is the best part of the design.

The only problem with having more space in the Moroccan backcountry versus less space in the city is you end up in the... backcountry.  My wife and I and our 2 children live in a pretty modest two-bedroom townhouse on a marina here in Long Beach.  We could afford much more space far outside of the city but then we would be… far outside of the city and all that is going on.  I'm not a fan of living in the backcountry, as you say.   

I'll post some more details of the model especially the courtyard, which includes a fountain.  I'll try an highlight a few other interesting architectural details as well.  Let me know if this boring you.  I can get kind of wonkish about architecture.  LOL! 

Edited January 27, 2019 by pahonu

[jpaul1]

19 hours ago, pahonu said:

Let me know if this boring you.  I can get kind of wonkish about architecture.  LOL! 

definitely not pahonu. definitely not. concerning living into the city vs backcountry. i believe it's a question of education mostly. i've been raised into the backcountry myself, and spent almost all my life there, i hardly see myself living into one of these tall condos you know. i mean if people enjoy living there this is perfect. but personnally if i don't have my forest to go running, it just won't make it . i love my forest, i love my river, i love my wild boars, and i love the little owl that comes sing each night near my bedroom 

[pahonu]

4 hours ago, jpm1 said:

definitely not pahonu. definitely not. concerning living into the city vs backcountry. i believe it's a question of education mostly. i've been raised into the backcountry myself, and spent almost all my life there, i hardly see myself living into one of these tall condos you know. i mean if people enjoy living there this is perfect. but personnally if i don't have my forest to go running, it just won't make it . i love my forest, i love my river, i love my wild boars, and i love the little owl that comes sing each night near my bedroom 

Totally understandable jpm.  I was just joking.  Everybody has to find what makes them happy.  Lot's of people struggle with that seemingly simple question: what makes you happy?  We live in a very urban environment, but our family goes camping to get away all the time, so I hear you.  You seem to have found what makes you happy.    Some people like to live around lots of activity and get away from it on occasion, some prefer to live in a quieter location and visit places full of action.  To each his own.  I think experiencing all of theses things is good.  Unfortunately many people don't get to.

I have an old VW campervan that I fixed up years ago.  My wife has kept a travel log of over 80 trips we've taken all over the western US.  My wife loves the big redwood trees of the coastal forests in northern CA, and the giant Sequoias.  We've seen elk and deer and bears and all kinds of other wildlife in our camping trips.  We also camp at beaches along the coast frequently and a few beautiful desert environments as well.  California has a lot to offer in terms of natural environments.  Many people don't realize it.  They think of Hollywood or the Silicone Valley. 

I'm also lucky enough to get out on and in the water frequently.  It's pretty amazing that with all the people around, there's still an incredible amount of sea life all around us.  I've seen countless sea lions, rays, octopus, jellyfish, and other fish.  I've seen dolphins mating from my kayak, a lemon shark while snorkeling, and a nurse shark right in the marina where my sailboat is slipped.  I completely get what your saying about your owl each night.  We wake up on the weekends hearing gulls and great blue herons and brown pelicans.  Wild boars though!  You got me there.   

Edited January 28, 2019 by pahonu

[pahonu]

Here's some more pics I promised.

[pahonu]

Here are sections through the structure showing the floor plan.  He might have also done separate floor plans in SketchUp.  I'll look through the file.  They might only have been done in AutoCAD, though.  I don't remember.

 

[jpaul1]

the more i watch that house, the more i think the person who made this had some genius. how he (or she) had brilliantly rearranged that small house into something totally unexpected, but logical (regarding the climate)

if it had been me, i would have cut the garage into 2. just keeping room for one car, and one bike, or 2 bikes (i'm biker). switch the kitchen, and ryad patio locations. reduced the kitchen size by half, and doubled the patio size. and why not add one, or two one sized wooden sofa-beds in the patio. to be able to sleep there if i want while watching the stars

[pahonu]

7 hours ago, jpm1 said:

the more i watch that house, the more i think the person who made this had some genius. how he (or she) had brilliantly rearranged that small house into something totally unexpected, but logical (regarding the climate)

if it had been me, i would have cut the garage into 2. just keeping room for one car, and one bike, or 2 bikes (i'm biker). switch the kitchen, and ryad patio locations. reduced the kitchen size by half, and doubled the patio size. and why not add one, or two one sized wooden sofa-beds in the patio. to be able to sleep there if i want while watching the stars

I agree, it is a very clever design.  The total area is just about 2100 sq. ft. so he did pack a lot of function into the space.  The building code for that property required two off-street parking spaces, so the garage was pretty much a fixed space.  In looking at again after a few years I have to say I'm also impressed by the workbench across the back of the garage.  I'd forgotten that detail.  The garage is quite deep allowing for that work bench.  If it was eliminated, you would have room for several bikes, I think. I also like the well-designed dressing room space in the master suite.  It has a closet, two wardrobes, and a dressing table.  The compartmentalized master bath is also well done in terms of functionality and aesthetics.  The kitchen is also well-designed and not considered very large by American standards, actually.  It's about 14 feet square.  I agree, the side courtyard is a bit small, but there is a much larger front terrace with a built in tile bench and pergola.  One version of the front terrace included a brick fire pit if I remember correctly.  The courtyard does have room for a sofa and dining table.  Without the table, a sofa-bed seems like it would fit.  While you couldn't look up at the stars, I think the idea behind the upstairs lounge space with its banks of windows on both sides, was also to create a sort of indoor/outdoor feeling and with a Moorish theme.  It would be a wonderful space on a balmy Southern California evening, and if cools down too much, it has a corner fireplace.  There are actually four fireplaces in the home.  The climate definitely played a role in his design.

I haven't looked for the floor plans yet.  I'll post them if I find them.

Edited January 31, 2019 by pahonu

[pahonu]

Here are the floor plans from SketchUp.  I noticed some changes from the final model, like adding the family room fireplace and changing the organization of the master bath.

 

 

 

I found a version with a fourth bedroom in place of the family room.  There are several other plans with various alterations.  He seems to have experimented with ideas more than I remember.

Edited February 1, 2019 by pahonu

[jpaul1]

yeah what i call patio in fact for you it's courtyard. i would have simply removed the family room, and put the courtyard there. and the kitchen streetside. also why chimney, is winter that cold in Florida

[pahonu]

3 hours ago, jpm1 said:

yeah what i call patio in fact for you it's courtyard. i would have simply removed the family room, and put the courtyard there. and the kitchen streetside. also why chimney, is winter that cold in Florida

The family room is on the second floor.  You can't put the courtyard there.  It connects the front part of the house which has the owner's suite to the rear part which has the family bedrooms.  The courtyard next to the kitchen was created to have private outdoor space on a small lot that doesn't allow for a back yard.  If the kitchen was moved to the street side, the outdoor space remaining would be in the shadow of the house and its neighbor.  Those changes don't make sense.  Also, as stated before, the house was not designed for Florida.  It was designed for Southern California, particularly Long Beach which is 54 degrees Fahrenheit right now.  We have a fire on in our bedroom right now.  Miami is subtropical.  SoCal has a Mediterranean climate.  They're very different.

[jpaul1]

you remove the family room, wipe it totally from the project. and you connect kids bedrooms to parent"s by a small wooden balcony. i didn't think it was California. i thought long beach was in Florida. you just need to reduce a bit the kitchen size.

however it's interesting to notice that with your knowledge on the subject you would have given the little prince house some credit. poersonnally i wouldn't

[pahonu]

17 hours ago, jpm1 said:

you remove the family room, wipe it totally from the project. and you connect kids bedrooms to parent"s by a small wooden balcony. i didn't think it was California. i thought long beach was in Florida. you just need to reduce a bit the kitchen size.

however it's interesting to notice that with your knowledge on the subject you would have given the little prince house some credit. poersonnally i wouldn't

There are at least 10 cities named Long Beach in various states in the US, though none in Florida.  Australia and New Zealand have cities with that name also.  The largest by far though, is Long Beach, California, my home city.  The city is actually larger than Miami, just behind Atlanta: #39 in the US.  I mentioned the LA area in the original post of these renderings.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population

In removing the family room entirely, that would leave a flat roof over the kitchen below and the second floor as two separate masses.  You propose connecting the owner's suite in front and family bedrooms in back with a hallway.  It wouldn't be a balcony because of the kitchen below it.  That plan leaves a second floor terrace even smaller than the courtyard.  It would also face directly the house next door which is about 6 feet away.  Look back closely at the sections of the floor plans and at the exterior elevations I posted.  There is a brown-colored area to the right of the home.  There is a house in that location.  It's not in the model, but that's the neighboring property.  The front and left of the house have views.  The rear is an alley and the right is another house.  Your proposal would place the upstairs terrace facing into the neighboring house.  That's why he placed the patio on the streetside, for privacy via a wall and no neighbors looking down.  The side of the house facing the neighboring lot has few small windows for just this reason, privacy.  I'll post a picture of that side when I get a chance.  I'll post the alley side as well.

The former house at 42 Star Island, or Little Prince house, was designed by the highly regarded Miami-area architect Walter Degarmo.  He also designed many other prominent structures in the area during the first decades of the 20th century.  His work is reflective of the location and era, not the opinions of today's consumers.  That's why there was such a big fight to try and protect it for restoration rather than demolition.  The home had been altered over the years and was in need of significant restoration for certain, but its merits were considerable.  I do indeed have significant knowledge of the subject and give the architect great credit for a design well done.

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by pahonu

[jpaul1]

it's funny because idk maybe it's me but for the 3rd time. i remove the kitchen. and place it where the actual courtyard. i'm gonna make a plan too lol

Edited February 3, 2019 by jpm1

[pahonu]

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 3:17 AM, jpm1 said:

 it's funny because idk maybe it's me but for the 3rd time. i remove the kitchen. and place it where the actual courtyard. i'm gonna make a plan too lol

It's not that I don't understand what you have proposed.  I envisioned what you were describing pretty clearly.  The issue is that there are some significant problems with the plan.  Good work with the drawing, by the way.

First floor:

1.  The kitchen can't be moved to the location you've drawn because it has to be setback from the sidewalk according to the building code.  The courtyard wall can be at the sidewalk edge and incorporate that space.  The kitchen you suggest would need to be moved several feet to the right to follow the code.

2.  These drawings don't have dimensions, but your kitchen is only about 7 feet wide as drawn.  That would allow for only one of the long walls to have cabinets.  Remember, this whole house is only 24 feet wide.

3.  Your plan has the kitchen disconnected from the rest of the living space.  There's not enough height under the stairs to put a hallway from the kitchen to the dining area, therefore one would have to go outside to take food and dishes from one to the other.  The climate here is quite cool in the winter and that would be unacceptable.  It was about 50 degrees Fahrenheit and raining when I had breakfast this morning.  I wouldn't have wanted to go outside to have my coffee and toast.  The very small kitchen space you've drawn would allow little to no space for eating.

Second floor:

1.  The same problem exists as on the first floor.  The family bedrooms and bath, also the laundry, is disconnected from the owner's suite and the stairs to the first floor.  Again one would have to go outside across the wooden balcony to get downstairs.  Then again outside to the kitchen. In this case it may be small children in these rooms.  I don't believe most people would want their small children sleeping essentially in a separate building.  Imagine having an infant in one of the bedrooms and having to go outside across the balcony in the middle of the night if they were crying.

2.   You may not have noticed, but the width of the upstairs family room is not the same as the kitchen below it.  The walls do not line up on both stories where you have drawn the ryad.  The width between the owner's bathroom and family bath is 13 feet.  Again, this is not a large house (just over 2000 sq. ft.) because of the small lot size.

3.  You have drawn the balconies of the ryad at only about 2 - 2 1/2 feet wide.  This also violates building code.  They would need to be a minimum of three feet plus the railing width.  Wood railings would be wider than iron.  See the width of the hall at the rear bedrooms.  It's the minimum 3 feet wide.  The upstairs family room is 13 feet wide.  Subtract 6 1/2 - 7 feet for balconies on both sides (top and bottom in your drawing) and the distance between them is only 6 feet.

 

I think the major problem is that there is simply not enough room to incorporate a two-story ryad with a perimeter balcony.  The student cleverly managed to squeeze in a courtyard of just 10 by 15 feet on what is a very small lot.  I'll see if I can add some dimensions to the plans I posted or find a version already dimensioned in his plans.  For now, I can give you a couple of room dimensions, in addition to what I mentioned above, so you have a better idea of the limited space involved.

2 rear bedrooms: 11-0 x 11-0 feet

dining/living room: 14-0 x 24-0 feet

owner's bedroom: 15-0 x 14-0 feet

family room: 14-0 x 13-0 feet

I'd be interested in seeing your plan if you can solve all these problems.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by pahonu